DFW, immigration, and the American dream..

[blitherington]

This thread is about the ongoing demonstrations for illegal immigrant rights on the one hand, and the attempts on the other by guys like Tim O'Hare to do something to stem the tide of illegal immigration on the other. It asks the question: "Are YOU willing to get involved?", and "if not, why not?"

Before I go any farther, I must warn you right out front, that although I am Anglo/Franco/Flemish/Ukranian by breed, my WIFE of 30 years is HISPANIC. My three children are 1/2 MEXICAN-AMERICAN. Some of my closest work associates are IMMIGRANTS, from Puerto Rico, Senegal, Ghana..

These immigrant associates are my friends and my brothers, in whom I believe, and who I am proud to call my friends. TO call old blitherington a racist would be NOT to know what the hell you are talking about. I have spent most of my life trying to make Dr. King's beautiful words a reality. I recognized King as a true American hero, at least in my view. "For America to rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'that ALL men are created equal'." This still gives me chills today, although I was only 11 when I first heard him say it.

I have sat back and watched the current struggle take shape, and I have read the accounts in the "news" papers, and I have listened to my children and heard their concerns and their harrowing accounts of their experiences at public school, dealing with the changing demographics there. I have decided that I can no longer sit and watch, but that I must take part, or I will never forgive myself when my life is over and I look back upon what I have done.

How many of you are sitting silently in the same boat?

We are not being told the truth. Not by the "news"papers, certainly not by the "government", not by the "businessmen" who profit from this mess, and we're very seldom even telling it to each other or to ourselves. Instead we are being fed myths, cliches, half truths and outright lies, and we are sitting and eating them because it is easier, and, we THINK, safer to do so. Que sera sera..this is a fatal mistake. Let's wake up, shall we?

Let's have a look at what we are told is the essence of the illegal immigration issue:

Myth #1. It's a racial/ ethnic issue, and racism is bad, therefore anyone who is against illegal immigration is a racist, and a bad person. This half truth alone has shut up MILLIONS of Americans who are not racist, and don't wish to discriminate against or offend Hispanic people.

The underlying assumption is that all Hispanic Americans want unrestricted immigration, and that anyone who disagrees is a racist who should shut up. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

It is not a racial nor an ethnic issue. Let me cite some examples:

Here is an article in the San Antonio newspaper by Armando Simón, an American of Hispanic ancestry with a different opinion.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/stories/MYSA061506.ed.comment.simon.885d5b5f.html

Here is another URL which makes for some interesting surfing:
http://dontspeakforme.org/

Don't Speak for Me is an entire website of Hispanic voices speaking out against illegal immigration..the group was formed when Col. Al Rodriguez became fed up watching media coverage of the mass protests of April. A website related to them is HERE:

Latino Americans for Immigration Reform
http://latinoamericans.org/future_lair.htm

You very seldom see anything about these thousands of Hispanic Americans in the "news"papers or in other Corporate media. All you hear is the one side, and the issue is constantly being confused and the race card played over and over ad nauseum by LULAC and other racist organizations. It is working for them. It has cowed most Americans into grumbling silence.

Perhaps the most compelling of the examples I have for you today is a video, at YOUTUBE, of Raymond Herrera, a Hispanic AMERICAN construction worker in California who puts the whole thing in perspective. WATCH THIS POWERFUL VIDEO..

http://www.youtube.com/v/VyGzdfxzgWQ

To look at Mr. Herrera, you'd think he WAS an illegal immigrant, brown and 'Hispanic looking' as he is, until he opens his mouth and tells his story. I have great respect for Mr. Herrera, and want to help him get the word out, by all means. Bless you, sir. I choose your side in this struggle.

Myth #2 Illegals are not dangerous people, but hard workers who care about their families, and no harm can come to us by extending our welcome. Therefore it would be wrong to secure the borders.

This, again, is a half truth. We have no idea who is even here, really. What of the ones who are not as described? Shouldn't we KNOW? How can we know without securing the border? This is the true essence of the issue, intentionally obscured by many.

Along with the hard workers, we have Zetas, MS13, and many others who openly hate us, are seething with race hatred, and want to take down the American way of life. The numbers of MS13 in this country are currently estimated at 10,000, almost all here illegally.

Let me take you to just one of these MS13 members, to see what they are made of, and what they think of America:

MS13 (MaraSalvaTrucha) Memo To Its Members
http://www.newsbackup.com/about656916.html

If you don't surf any of the other links, don't miss this last one. This clown came over here illegally, like so many other criminals.

How many of these dangerous gang members will come over before you see that they are in fact a foreign enemy in our midst? It is impossible to control unless the borders are secured and legal control of who comes is established. Control of illegal drugs is impossible without secured borders. What is racist about that?

The smattering of American patriots who have the guts to demonstrate publicly for what they believe are portrayed in the media as racist fringe element nut cases, despite that they are IN FAVOR of legal immigration. So few of us are there to back them up. Why?

Have any of you written or called your mayor or your city council or your congressmen or senators, to make your feelings known? If not WHY NOT?[Scottish voice] get off yer DUFF, man..smell the coffee. To write your congressmen, visit:

http://www.congress.org

Don't stop there. Do what you can, while you can, wherever you are..

I would like to hear how some other posters feel about all this, but please, no cliches about how we are all immigrants or from immigrants. That isn't the point. Don't play the race card yet again. I'm figuratively standing here with my fellow Americans Raymond Herrera and Col. Al Rodriguez and Armando Simón, not to mention my Mexican American wife and three mixed blood children, so please don't insult our intelligence by trying to play the race card in this thread. It has been played unfairly all too often already.

Apologies if anything I've said has been offensive to anyone; I could not help but speak my mind here. Thank heavens that so far, at least, there is still freedom of speech in our country, although most of us are too intimidated or discouraged to use it.

sincerely
blitherington :bounce:

[Dr. Thunder]

It has absolutely nothing to do with racism but rather the sanctity, and maybe even, survival, of this country. The greatest danger to America is from within. Do you think the Mexicans came here to give us all free back-rubs? Haven't you seen or listened to anything they do or say? What do you think they are taught in Mexican schools? They think this land is theirs! They think we stole it from them and they have this god given right to come here and do what they want. They think we are the intruders. Don't you know how to string together facts and come up with a good educated guess at what is going on. Do you need each and every single one of them to tell you to your face before you can believe they don't see you as their hero, or their people. In this case it is not much of a guess. They all march with signs saying we are in THEIR country and not vise versa.

I've been declaring, like what seems forever, that the goal of Latinos, legal and illegal, is to act in the capacity of agents (wittingly or unwittingly or maybe both) for the Mexican government who want to flood this country with enough immigrants to force Congress into favorable immigration reform (Why do you think the Mexican government provides it's citizens who intend to cross into the U.S. with instructions on surviving in the American desert?). Reform that will then be used as a pathway to citizenship allowing the Latinos to form large and powerful voting blocs that could threaten the United States Constitution as we know it. Can you say amendment? Can you say electoral coup d'etat?

My instincts tell me that Mexico's ultimate goal is to seek revenge by reacquiring territories lost during The Mexican-American War and the Mexican Cession. While it may seem like hysteria, I trust my instincts. It has served me faithfully for many years. But, more than instincts, the facts can easily be extrapolated to show their intentions are not merely harmlessly seeking of employment but, much more nefarious. We may have forgotten our history of that long ago period, they have not. Believe it or not this is an invasion of unprecedented proportions orchestrated, as I see it, by the Mexican government surreptitiously encouraging their citizens to transgress American territory even to the point of audaciously providing them with helpful pamphlets. Pamphlets instructing them how to avoid outposts and on survival techniques in the desert.

They will subsequently form huge voting blocs with the intent of changing or instituting laws favorable to their culture and the creation of a sovereign Hispanic state. Maybe even seek to amend the United States Constitution. It is highly probable if you study the census. Review your history of the Mexican-American War and the Mexican Cession. The Mexican Cession is a historical name for the region of the present day southwestern United States that was ceded to the U.S. by Mexico in 1848 under the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo following the Mexican-American War.

The Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo was the peace treaty that ended the Mexican-American War (1846–1848). The treaty provided for the Mexican Cession, in which Mexico ceded 1.36 million km² (525,000 square miles) to the United States in exchange for USD$15 million. The United States also agreed to take over $3.25 million in debts Mexico owed to American citizens. The cession included parts of the modern-day U.S. states of Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Wyoming, as well as the whole of California, Nevada, and Utah. The remaining parts of what are today the states of Arizona and New Mexico were later ceded under the 1853 Gadsden Purchase.

The Gadsden Purchase is a 29,640 mi² (76,770 km2) region of what is today southern Arizona and New Mexico that was purchased by the United States from Mexico in 1853. The purchase included lands south of the Gila River and west of the Rio Grande. Although we may have long forgotten about that period, the Mexicans have not and still believes that these territories rightfully belong to them. That is why the American West and Southwest is the main magnet for their ILLEGAL immigration. (see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican-American_War)

That, then, is their agenda. To eventually ,with the assistance of our all-to-willing congressional representatives, elected by AMERICAN Citizens to represent THEIR interests and who are prepared to weakly acquiesce to non-Americans demanding the full rights of citizenship whether we like it or not, re-gain these territories through proxy.

Once they are placed on the path to citizenship,I believe they will form huge monolithic voting blocs to elect mostly their own Hispanic representatives and senators, to represent the states of greater Hispanic occupancy, to further that agenda. Representatives who can then introduce even MORE legislation favorable to their cause, i.e., changing the American flag, elimination of borders, multilingual mandates, a simple majority to amend the US Constitution, et al. Use your imagination.

I'd like to see your responses to the illegal immigration situation pursuant to the internet sources I have provided below.
One is a 2-3 minute video from the Immigration Watchdog. com site showing pictures of the recent protests with comments from radicals giving seditious sounding speeches and readily accepted as gospel by the multitudes.

Note the enthusiasm of the protestors who, incidentally, have no particular allegiance to the United States but who's "handlers" quickly made sure they carried AMERICAN flags.
If you heard the unmistakable shouts of, "Aztlan" and "reconquistas" as I did when viewing the short film of the demonstrations I have provided to you below, you will soon realize that their allegiance is strictly with Mexico and their intent is to establish a sort of United States of Mexico consisting of this "Aztlan" State. Aztlan refers to the American Southwest, specifically the territory of northern Mexico ceded to the United States by the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in 1848 and includes the states of California, Texas, New Mexico, and Arizona specifically.

The term is used exclusively by Chicano-rights activists. See the connection yet? Originally applied to the 700 year effort to retake Iberia from the Islamic Moors, Reconquista is a word used to describe a presumed irredentist agenda of Mexican-American and other Hispanic activists to take back those territories ceded to the United States by Mexico after the Mexican-American war in the 1848 Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo. This agenda is primarily driven by the efforts of M.E.Ch.A. (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan).

MEChA (Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán or Chicano Student Movement of Aztlán), is an organization that seeks to promote an awareness of Chicano history by education and political action. In Spanish, the word mecha means fuse. The motto of MEChA is La Unión Hace La Fuerza, or "Unity Creates Strength".

MEChA has attracted substantial criticism, with critics claiming that it is an irredentist movement aimed at uniting the Southwestern portion of the United States (including Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and California) with Mexico , preferably through political means, but through force if necessary. The Mexican Government has denied any territorial claims, of course.


The next one is also from the Immigration Watchdog site with excerpts of threatening comments made by many of the speakers including the Governor of New Mexico,Bill Richardson( of Spanish heritage) giving hope and comfort to those Latino throngs who are loudly declaring America to be "their" country.
The third is from the Center For Immigration Studies presenting an article about the Mexican Consulate providing ILLEGAL immigrants with identification cards which, astoundingly, are accepted at many American institutions, i.e. banks, state offices, etc.

Unbelievable. While we are looking the other way, America is in the process of being captured without a shot being fired by a hostile government (Mexico) who has encouraged, and actively and openly assisted, ILLEGAL immigrants to transgress our borders.

These are the "enemy within" whom our "leaders" (Kennedy/McCain) are happily, and quite cavalierly, attempting to turn control of this country over to (especially McCain) all the while naively, and foolishly, believing the grateful Hispanics will vote to elect him in any future presidential election. I urge you to visit these sites and then review your history of the Mexican-American War, The Mexican Cession,The Texas Annexation, et al. We may have forgotten. They have not. What is particularly disheartening is the energy our president, Bush, is expending toward this goal. What is his purpose? Surely he realizes the seious impact this will have on our country. Is it self-serving? His brother Jeb, is married to a Mexican woman after all. And I believe that at least on one occassion, Bush has remarked what a great president Jeb would make. Is he trying to line up the Latino vote for Jeb at the risk of the permanent dissection, and,thus, destabilization of America? These are serious questions amid serious times. America is changing and it's not for the best. The crisis is not in Iraq , or Iran. or North Korea. It's right here and it is very very serious. Already, they (the immigrants and their supporters) want to change the National Anthem. What's next? Amend the United States Constitution? Well, don't worry. It's coming. Once Congress approves legislation placing 20 million plus ILLEGAL immigrants on the path to citizenship (on top of the 40 million or so Latinas already here, expect to see the formation of a huge monolithic voting bloc established to create a political ideology favorable to Hispanic culture.

The political correctness and blatant benevolence of America will be it's undoing. No other country in the world would allow it's territory to be so easily taken over and it's sovereignty threatened forever by a foreign power who has cleverly and surreptitiously used it's citizenry as a ploy to gain entry, a foothold and, for all intents and purposes, permanently capture and hold large portions of another country's territory and claim it as their own.

[jammin]

This thread is about the ongoing demonstrations for illegal immigrant rights on the one hand, and the attempts on the other by guys like Tim O'Hare to do something to stem the tide of illegal immigration on the other. It asks the question: "Are YOU willing to get involved?", and "if not, why not?"

Before I go any farther, I must warn you right out front, that although I am Anglo/Franco/Flemish/Ukranian by breed, my WIFE of 30 years is HISPANIC. My three children are 1/2 MEXICAN-AMERICAN. Some of my closest work associates are IMMIGRANTS, from Puerto Rico, Senegal, Ghana..

These immigrant associates are my friends and my brothers, in whom I believe, and who I am proud to call my friends. TO call old blitherington a racist would be NOT to know what the hell you are talking about. I have spent most of my life trying to make Dr. King's beautiful words a reality. I recognized King as a true American hero, at least in my view. "For America to rise up and live out the true meaning of its creed: 'that ALL men are created equal'." This still gives me chills today, although I was only 11 when I first heard him say it.

I have sat back and watched the current struggle take shape, and I have read the accounts in the "news" papers, and I have listened to my children and heard their concerns and their harrowing accounts of their experiences at public school, dealing with the changing demographics there. I have decided that I can no longer sit and watch, but that I must take part, or I will never forgive myself when my life is over and I look back upon what I have done.

How many of you are sitting silently in the same boat?

We are not being told the truth. Not by the "news"papers, certainly not by the "government", not by the "businessmen" who profit from this mess, and we're very seldom even telling it to each other or to ourselves. Instead we are being fed myths, cliches, half truths and outright lies, and we are sitting and eating them because it is easier, and, we THINK, safer to do so. Que sera sera..this is a fatal mistake. Let's wake up, shall we?

Let's have a look at what we are told is the essence of the illegal immigration issue:

Myth #1. It's a racial/ ethnic issue, and racism is bad, therefore anyone who is against illegal immigration is a racist, and a bad person. This half truth alone has shut up MILLIONS of Americans who are not racist, and don't wish to discriminate against or offend Hispanic people.

The underlying assumption is that all Hispanic Americans want unrestricted immigration, and that anyone who disagrees is a racist who should shut up. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

It is not a racial nor an ethnic issue. Let me cite some examples:

Here is an article in the San Antonio newspaper by Armando Simón, an American of Hispanic ancestry with a different opinion.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/stories/MYSA061506.ed.comment.simon.885d5b5f.html

Here is another URL which makes for some interesting surfing:
http://dontspeakforme.org/

Don't Speak for Me is an entire website of Hispanic voices speaking out against illegal immigration..the group was formed when Col. Al Rodriguez became fed up watching media coverage of the mass protests of April. A website related to them is HERE:

Latino Americans for Immigration Reform
http://latinoamericans.org/future_lair.htm

You very seldom see anything about these thousands of Hispanic Americans in the "news"papers or in other Corporate media. All you hear is the one side, and the issue is constantly being confused and the race card played over and over ad nauseum by LULAC and other racist organizations. It is working for them. It has cowed most Americans into grumbling silence.

Perhaps the most compelling of the examples I have for you today is a video, at YOUTUBE, of Raymond Herrera, a Hispanic AMERICAN construction worker in California who puts the whole thing in perspective. WATCH THIS POWERFUL VIDEO..

http://www.youtube.com/v/VyGzdfxzgWQ

To look at Mr. Herrera, you'd think he WAS an illegal immigrant, brown and 'Hispanic looking' as he is, until he opens his mouth and tells his story. I have great respect for Mr. Herrera, and want to help him get the word out, by all means. Bless you, sir. I choose your side in this struggle.

Myth #2 Illegals are not dangerous people, but hard workers who care about their families, and no harm can come to us by extending our welcome. Therefore it would be wrong to secure the borders.

This, again, is a half truth. We have no idea who is even here, really. What of the ones who are not as described? Shouldn't we KNOW? How can we know without securing the border? This is the true essence of the issue, intentionally obscured by many.

Along with the hard workers, we have Zetas, MS13, and many others who openly hate us, are seething with race hatred, and want to take down the American way of life. The numbers of MS13 in this country are currently estimated at 10,000, almost all here illegally.

Let me take you to just one of these MS13 members, to see what they are made of, and what they think of America:

MS13 (MaraSalvaTrucha) Memo To Its Members
http://www.newsbackup.com/about656916.html

If you don't surf any of the other links, don't miss this last one. This clown came over here illegally, like so many other criminals.

How many of these dangerous gang members will come over before you see that they are in fact a foreign enemy in our midst? It is impossible to control unless the borders are secured and legal control of who comes is established. Control of illegal drugs is impossible without secured borders. What is racist about that?

The smattering of American patriots who have the guts to demonstrate publicly for what they believe are portrayed in the media as racist fringe element nut cases, despite that they are IN FAVOR of legal immigration. So few of us are there to back them up. Why?

Have any of you written or called your mayor or your city council or your congressmen or senators, to make your feelings known? If not WHY NOT?[Scottish voice] get off yer DUFF, man..smell the coffee. To write your congressmen, visit:

http://www.congress.org

Don't stop there. Do what you can, while you can, wherever you are..

I would like to hear how some other posters feel about all this, but please, no cliches about how we are all immigrants or from immigrants. That isn't the point. Don't play the race card yet again. I'm figuratively standing here with my fellow Americans Raymond Herrera and Col. Al Rodriguez and Armando Simón, not to mention my Mexican American wife and three mixed blood children, so please don't insult our intelligence by trying to play the race card in this thread. It has been played unfairly all too often already.

Apologies if anything I've said has been offensive to anyone; I could not help but speak my mind here. Thank heavens that so far, at least, there is still freedom of speech in our country, although most of us are too intimidated or discouraged to use it.

sincerely
blitherington :bounce:

It's one thing to tighten up the borders; it's another to spew the BS that idiot in FB is spewing. Race may not be the motiviation for you; but you can't dismiss it. I'm willing to bet it is a factor for many that do make your argument....

Do you really not think your ancestor would have came over here illegally if he had the chance?? Jumping an ocean is a little tougher than crossing a river.

Looks like we have another war on our hands now..funny i didnt know about it:

http://www.klif.com/Campaigns/War/index.htm

[blitherington]

Race may not be the motivation for you; but you can't dismiss it. I'm willing to bet it is a factor for many that do make your argument....


It's the unique dilemma of being a true American, Jammin'. I love my Ghanian buddy in Richardson, my Senegalese buddy in Oak Cliff, my Puerto Rican buddy off Central & Forest. I stand by them regardless. They make DFW a better place to be; They enrich life in this town. The Ghanian is now a US citizen, bless him, and who knows whether the other two will eventually do so, but they are all here LEGALLY. Racists be blasted.

Lord knows, I love my Mexican American wife too, and her whole sweet family, especially her grandma, who was the (legal) immigrant. Still, we MUST secure the borders, at all costs, asap..survival as a nation depends on it. As the links showed, many Hispanic AMERICANS agree.

blitherington :bounce:

[Dr. Thunder]

I think that you are missing the point.... most likely because you biased to you wife, which is understandable. That fact of the matter is, this is a problem....a big problem, and something needs to be done. I personally don't think that it fair that Memorial Hospital of Dallas is full because there is a large flux of illegal immigrants having babies....of which, they have no money, of which we the tax payer have to pay for. I also don't think its fair to go to a restaurant and the Mexicans that are working can't speak English..... they are taking jobs away from Americans...spending our tax payer money, and now you think that since someone crossed the border they should be given the right to become a citizen? Are you kidding???? Try doing that in another country!

When the march happened at few months ago, I went out there and looked at the crowd and I said to myself....wow look at all these people, there must be a good reason for the movement. So I did my research and I figured out what this was all about.....they are trying to use there mass to force the USA to give them citizenship. I support Bush's plan 100%, and if the illegal immigrants don’t like it, get the hell out….you won’t be missed!

[blitherington]

I think that you are missing the point.... most likely because you biased to you wife..etc etc.. blah..blah...they are taking jobs away from Americans...etc etc, spending our tax payer money, and now you think that since someone crossed the border they should be given the right to become a citizen? Are you kidding???? Try doing that in another country!

(LOL)I think, Dr. Thunder, that YOU are the one who is missing the point. My whole original post was not in favor of illegal immigration, but against it.. When I said "racists be damned" I was speaking of those who didn't like my ethnic friends who'd immigrated here LEGALLY, as did my ancestors from France, Belgium, England, the Ukraine, during the 1800's.. I'm entirely against ILLEGAL immigration.. and my post was against it as well. I only favor legal immigration.

You might want to re-read the original post..surf some of the links..take the time to watch Mr.Herrera's video..it might provide a bit more background..

best regards
w. blitherington.. :bounce:

P.S. Jammin': Can you please be a bit more specific as to exactly what you mean by "The BS that idiot in FB is spewing"?I presume you are talking about Tim O'Hare. Exactly what about his proposal did you find to be "B.S.", as you put it? His proposal is very similar to what they are proposing in Hazelton PA. Do you find that to be "B.S." as well? If so, on what grounds?

Also, there are already any number of laws on the books which would keep businesses from hiring illegals and would deport illegals and so on. Are they "BS"? Do you feel that existing laws should be enforced, or ignored as is being done now? Why?

As Ray Herrera's video shows, it is not just Mexican nationals who are the problem. it is also white business owners who are cutting American workers of all ethnicities out of the loop to save a buck, as well as white politicians who are conveniently looking the other way. Politicians and business owners in Mexico also play a big part. It is not a race based issue, despite what many would have you believe. It is a national issue.

[grantboston]

Blitherington, I'm glad you're speaking your mind on this issue. One thing I've noticed on this issue is that lots of people tend to hide behind the two encamped positions. That's not good regardless of what one's view on this issue may be.

I find two things quite interesting about this whole debate.

Firstly, there are people who focus on the pragmatic reality, and those who focus on the theoretical.

First of all, the logistics of how the US would deport millions of illegal immigrants (or even the leagal obstacles to determining exactly who is and who isn't here legally) are impossible. Like it or not, most of the people who are here illegally really want to be here mostly because of the extreme economic benefit they receive from even below-minimum wage jobs. One way to get rid of that economic incentive is to paradoxically raise wages. If it's true that raising the minimum wage would discourage hiring, then people making pennies on the dollar will be the first to go. That seems to me to be the best way to ferret out those people who are here illegally. Until something like that happens, our illegal immigrants will to stay is always going to exceed the willpower of the government (or these silly militias) to forcibly remove them. I don't think I need to go into the whole argument about trying to find people to replace the jobs these immigrants do other than to ask this question: Can you name one person who wants a specific job that an illegal immigrant residing in this country has?

In my view, for a high powered economy such as ours that is fairly thoroughly capitalistic, it is impossible not to have a great number of people at the bottom end of the wage scale who are willing to work menial jobs for relatively low pay. The only way to correct that is to pay more (or have less workers assume more responsibilites) and be willing to sacrifice some on profit margains.

Secondly, the policies being bandied about are more focused on treating the symptoms to a problem that will not go away, and to some degree is indicative of the failures of both foreign governments and our own.

We can pass whatever kind of enforcement measures we want to keep people out of this country who come here illegally. We can build a giant, multibillion dollar fence. Heck, we can build 10 of them. But our government has not traditionally shown the willingness to enforce the existing immigration laws or equip those within the government who try with enough money and manpower to make a greater effort. Both of those need to change before anything else is done, in my opinion. It would likely go a long way in helping to solve this issue.

Also, as is traditional custom for the US in its treatment toward Latin America (take it from someone majoring in Latin American history :)), our policies and support of governments in these Latin American countries is in many ways counterproductive to creating the conditions for stability and a better life within those countries to allow people to entertain the idea of never coming here illegally to begin with. We have an exceptionally long way to go to rebuild trust and a good working relationship with Mexico and other countries to let them believe that we're acting in their best interest (as well as our own. It can be done!).

For instance, I was in a small town in Colombia this summer. In a cab I was taking there, the cab driver happened to have lived in Boston (legally, actually) for several years working menial jobs around the city. He decided to go back to Colombia because of the increased safety and opportunity the country has seen in recent years with President Uribe. I'm not saying all illegal immigrants will go home once their country "turns a corner," but my experience with him and others is that most are proud of their homelands and wish them well, and many want nothing more than to live among that success in a dignified and respectable manner.

Anyway, the point of all of this is that we often tend to talk past the issue and get riled up by straw man issues that have little to do with actual sustainable policy. There's a long term solution here that goes beyond our borders and we tend to pay too little attention to that. Our thinking needs to go beyond this fiery "get out aliens!" mentality and work toward some resolution that actually allows all the countries in the Americas to live well and in harmony.

Something tells me if we do that, we'll solve a lot of other problems as well.

Glad you brought this up. :)

[blitherington]

. Our thinking needs to go beyond this fiery "get out aliens!" mentality and work toward some resolution that actually allows all the countries in the Americas to live well and in harmony. Something tells me if we do that, we'll solve a lot of other problems as well.

Glad you brought this up. :)
You've said a mouthful here,. grantboston. I feel that if life didn't suck so incredibly hard for workers in Mexico that these people would probably rather stay there anyway.

How on Earth can one achieve social justice in another country from one's own? that's a tough one. I was listening to some bloke on PBS, PRI, whatever you call it, talking about this, and he said that, for example, a certain number of factories along the border in Mexico had just lost thousands more jobs to China, putting even their $5 a day workers in the unemployed sector. Things are happening at the global level economically that we are all having to deal with at the local level, Mexicans and Americans alike, things we have no control over.

Globally , the Rich simply do not care about our opinion of it; they do what's best for the bottom line for their big multinational corporations. To hell with the peons, and unfortunately, this means American workers too...our politicians are all totally bought out by special interests. Both parties.. it's as bad as I've ever seen it in my half century here. The two parties are like two houses of the chamber of commerce. Most of us will agree on that, if we are honest about it.

All that said, to stem the drugs and the gangs and haters of America who would come to destroy, we must secure the borders. It isn't impossible. Other countries have much more secure borders than us. We must act. All else said, this at least is a MUST.

blitherington :bounce:

PS ah yes, grant boston, one other thing.. you wrote "Can you name one person who wants a specific job that an illegal immigrant residing in this country has? " you obviously did not watch the ray herrera video at youtube. have a look, when you get a chance. (The link is in the initial post)Ray and his son both were replaced by mexicans on a job they obviously wanted and needed to pay for their family. His story refutes your assertion pretty much hands down. His story is far from unique.

[sogod]

First of all, the logistics of how the US would deport millions of illegal immigrants (or even the leagal obstacles to determining exactly who is and who isn't here legally) are impossible.

Thats not true. A government as intrusive as ours has immense power in this area (sadly).

Heres how you do it: Offer money to anyone who can report a company that is hiring illegals. Say, $1000 per illegal caught (ideally coming from the a fine on the company itself if its large enough). It wouldn't be long before no company would risk it ;) Once there are no jobs available, eveyone would have no reason to stay and they would leave. Badda bing, badda boom.

(Of course, we should also end minimum wage laws and also have more intelligent immigration laws that do bring in people who want to work in these jobs. We should also try to get a more diverse mix of folks for these jobs, some from Eastern Europe, some from S, SE, and E Asia, and Africans too to balance out the lopsided percentage of immigrants (illegal and legal) that are from Mexico and central America. Finally, our immigration laws should try to get the best and brightest skilled workers from every country to move here above and beyond the number of unskilled workers we might let in.)

[mdunlap1]

Thats not true. A government as intrusive as ours has immense power in this area (sadly).

Heres how you do it: Offer money to anyone who can report a company that is hiring illegals. Say, $1000 per illegal caught (ideally coming from the a fine on the company itself if its large enough). It wouldn't be long before no company would risk it ;) Once there are no jobs available, eveyone would have no reason to stay and they would leave.

So you want more government intrusion into the lives of Americans?

There is nothing more fundamental to the preservation of economic liberty than the freedom to contract with another person for labor services. Greater state restrictions on that freedom is about as anti-capitalist as you can get. And it's economically very destructive. (It's no coincidence that the areas of this country with the strongest economic growth over the past decade have also seen the highest rates of immigration.)

[tamtagon]

There is nothing more fundamental to the preservation of economic liberty than the freedom to contract with another person for labor services. Greater state restrictions on that freedom is about as anti-capitalist as you can get. And it's economically very destructive.

Word.

[mjblazin]

The majority of immigrant families have minors that are native born Americans. We're definitely not shipping millions of American citizens anywhere, especially minors, and that means we're not shipping their legal guardians (regardless of their illegal immigrant status) anywhere either. Consequently "send them back" scenarios are non-starters. Therefore it makes no sense to have all kinds of measures to potentially punish people involved when they are not going anywhere and we don't have the money to waste on bureaucrats.

Consequently the only viable options are tracking the ones here and getting them on some kind of controlled path to citizenship. Conincedentally, that's essentially the Bush plan.

[ajmstilt]

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me.
I lift my lamp beside the golden door."

[grantboston]

So you want more government intrusion into the lives of Americans?

There is nothing more fundamental to the preservation of economic liberty than the freedom to contract with another person for labor services. Greater state restrictions on that freedom is about as anti-capitalist as you can get. And it's economically very destructive. (It's no coincidence that the areas of this country with the strongest economic growth over the past decade have also seen the highest rates of immigration.)

I never thought we would agree on something, but I see that day has come! :) I think one of the most difficult intersections of policy in this area is that of social and economic interests. If we could deal with this problem in just one area, it would be a lot easier, but sadly we can't.

This is why I again feel that the best comprehensive way to deal with this problem is to endorse the Bush plan and implement policies that raise wages at the lowest scale to eliminate the need for additional low wage jobs. (I explained the rationale for this above). Also, I think the corresponding crackdown on illegal immigration has to be offset by an increase in legal immigration and work visas. I've spoken to too many people both in Eastern Europe and Central/South America who are frustrated with the process to come to the US to work legally and lawfully. If we want our economy to thrive with people here within the law, we need to address the visa process.

[blitherington]

So you want more government intrusion into the lives of Americans?

There is nothing more fundamental to the preservation of economic liberty than the freedom to contract with another person for labor services. Greater state restrictions on that freedom is about as anti-capitalist as you can get. And it's economically very destructive. (It's no coincidence that the areas of this country with the strongest economic growth over the past decade have also seen the highest rates of immigration.)

dunlap: Your quickly dismissive argument in favor of ILLEGAL immigration does not work. "Economic Growth" at any cost is not automatically a good thing. There are powerful reasons related to national security to make the only acceptable immigration a controlled and legal process.

Automatic amnesty yet again this time around is a terrible idea. We should not be giving away citizenship in such a cavalier fashion. Many of those foreign nationals being granted automatic amnesty wiithout any scrutiny at all are themselves racists, anti-American, intent on taking back what they perceive to be Mexico's stolen territory, exactly as Dr. Thunder has described above. It's not racist, but simply observant to say so. His longer post is not without merit, although I do not agree with all of it. I know there are Hispanic American patriots out there, and I appreciate them. Not all hispanic people are enemies of our country , but some here definitely are. Shouldn't we know who's who before we start granting blanket amnesty to all of them?

My (half latino but mostly english speaking) kids sometimes experience the prejudice in public schools, which are now dominated by gangs of Mexican nationals. I am sometimes 'stared down' by the same gang members as I go to pick them up at school. They are trying to intimidate me in a formerly nice neighborhood I have spent the last 23 years in. Reconquista is NOT some 'white nut case' pipe dream, but a clear and present danger to our nation..

Powerful 'civil rights' [anti-white racist] organizations like La Raza (literally the Race; doesn't that say anything to you?) are bitter, arrogantly racist and have as their goal the return of the S.W. USA to Mexico. This is a fact, not my opinion. do you need links?

A little documentation about their true intentions:

http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=762&terms=la+raza%2C%2C
La Raza Chino activism in california

How about la raza's version of the 1848 treaty de guadalupe hidalgo? (Notice the expanded map of mexico in the header which includes Texas, California, and other states.)

http://larazaunida.tripod.com/docs/feb2.htm

how about this one, where racist LULAC is trying to buy up all the houses currently available in Farmer's Branch, not just for latinos but specifically for Mexican nationals here illegally? I suppose that's to foster diversity? An interesting little article called "Compre Farmer's Branch" (Buy Farmer's Branch)

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/15432769.htm

Immigration laws currently on the books SHOULD be ENFORCED.. These employers are skirting legal employer obligations right and left, breaking laws regarding taxes, social security witholding requirements and much else, while the aliens they employ eat up government and other social services at taxpayer expense. It is not fair. They should be penalized. It's not fair.

Oh, and I think I understand your model of "economic liberty".."Business" PROFITS from the dirt cheap labor, skirts all the existing laws regarding employing people, illegally evades their tax obligations and then dumps the hospital bills and massive social problems on me, while they live in a nice gated community with their "free" profits...the less "governmental oversight" the better..right. They should be stopped. Economic liberty indeed.

It is one thing to advocate changing or eliminating a law, but quite irresponsible for you to advocate breaking the laws of our country in the name of "capitalism", which you "businessmen" seem to hold above all else. You certainly hold money above your country. I see where you are coming from. Sure..I don't agree with it, but I see it, quite clearly..some liberty, pal..the almighty dollar is flying way up above the american flag..

You say you are against government intrusion. When one goes to dictionary.com and looks up "govern", sure, one sees "to rule over by right of authority" i.e. to govern a nation. However, one also sees "to have predominating influence" I for one would rather have some access to those who make the final decisions, preferably less flawed by corruption from moneyed special interests. You would have the special interests running the show without oversight, in the name of freedom. What a sham.

If 'economic liberty" means a system where "Business" is the defacto ruler, wielding "predominating influence" in the absence of any oversight, thanks but no thanks..that's not democracy but corporate fascism.

You have not made a decent case in favor of ILLEGAL immigration being given the rubber stamp of approval by "Business", bought out puppet legislators okaying it, and that being the end of it..sorry..Sorry McCain, Sorry Teddy, Sorry G.W, Sorry Bill Frist..sorry dunlap, no amnesty..you are giving away our country to foreign nationals for a buck and a vote, however shadily the vote might have been obtained.

Defacto rule of our country by "Business" in the absence of any oversight is freedom in name only; certainly not FREEDOM for ALL. We Americans deserve better.

Here again are links to 'Hispanic American Patriots opposed to illegal immigration and opposed to amnesty. Bless you my brothers.

Armando Simón
http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion...n.885d5b5f.html

http://dontspeakforme.org/
Col. Al Rodriguez and others

American Patriot Raymond Herrera at you tube:
http://www.youtube.com/v/VyGzdfxzgWQ

w. blitherington :bounce:

[grantboston]

Not as a swipe to what you believe, because I know you firmly believe it, but: what is the plan to accomplish what you wish to accomplish?

*How do we deport 11 million people?
*Do we shut down groups like LULAC and La Raza? How so? And how to avoid legal challenges?

Frankly, it's easy to say there's a problem, and say "round 'em up and send 'em back!" but that isn't a plan. I've yet to see a credible plan to identify and deport millions of people. If it's illegal now to employ someone here illegally, I don't see how adding yet another fine is going to do anything.

[mdunlap1]

"Economic Growth" at any cost is not automatically a good thing.

I'm not arguing for "economic growth at any cost". Just liberty. I won't interfere with your freedom to contract with whomever you choose to employ, and I ask that in return you not interfere with mine. Deal?


There are powerful reasons related to national security to make the only acceptable immigration a controlled and legal process.

The biggest threat to "national security" on this issue is the American government. Economic liberty makes the immigrant, his employer, and the people that purchase the product of their work, or basically, everyone, better off. (If it didn't none of these people would be freely choosing to contract with each other.)

Liberty isn't a threat to national security. Its enemies in our government are.


Many of those foreign nationals being granted automatic amnesty wiithout any scrutiny at all are themselves racists, anti-American, intent on taking back what they perceive to be Mexico's stolen territory

Yawn.


Not all hispanic people are enemies of our country , but some here definitely are.

I'm a white, US citizen, but I have no doubt that I would also meet your definition of "an enemy of our country". Should I be deported too?


gangs of Mexican nationals

There are gangs of "American nationals" as well. This isn't a problem of immigration and certainly not a problem that will be solved by your demands for more government restrictions of my freedom.


Oh, and I think I understand your model of "economic liberty"..

Not really.

Liberty to contract with whomever I choose. That's all. Why is my liberty such a threat to you?


some liberty, pal..the almighty dollar is flying way up above the american flag..

Hmmm... sounds like what self-described Leftists and Socialists say about economic liberty as well.


When one goes to dictionary.com and looks up "govern", sure, one sees "to rule over by right of authority"

Yep. You don't have a natural right to rule over me. Neither do your friends just because you voted for them to do so.



you are giving away our country to foreign nationals for a buck and a vote

Vote? I don't believe in voting in elections of the state. Doing so is very evil, imho.

I'm sorry you hate that others may be left at liberty from the coercion of you and your friends in office. Coercion of moral behavior (i.e. freely contracting with another in a productive commercial transaction) is evil. So you shouldn't support it.

[mdunlap1]

If it's illegal now to employ someone here illegally, I don't see how adding yet another fine is going to do anything.

Add hundreds of thousands of agents to the federal government. Give them sweeping powers to spy on, investigate, and raid businesses suspected of employing people not approved by the government. Imprison anyone employing someone not approved by the state for long periods of time. Seize their assets.

You know... the "conservative" thing to do.

[blitherington]

I'm a white, US citizen, but I have no doubt that I would also meet your definition of "an enemy of our country". Should I be deported too?



I hope I am clear, and I wish you no ill will, dunlap. As my mother said "It takes all kinds", and all Americans will never always agree on things. There are rightists, leftists, anarchists, throughout the spectrum, Americans all. Latinos, whities, black folks, persians, asians and hybrids, people of more than one ethnicity, like my kids. It is the give and take in this country, the back and forth between people who disagree, that makes it work, if it is going to work [we shall see].

But there has to be a forum and a way of carrying the result of that onward with decisions, and "business" ain't it. The government is really the only tool we have for that, imperfect and screwed up as it is. Otherwise, (economic) might governs all, the powerful rule the less powerful with an iron hand, and that is not , in my view, what America is supposed to be all about..You have every right to your opinion.

To wit: I don't care if you're white, blue, purple, or polka dotted.. ;-) You are a citizen? (Even if not,)Here legally? then I fully support your right to do anything you choose within the law, including to contract with anyone you please for any legal purpose, with anyone else who is here legally including any legal immigrant from all over the planet..
[If you think Idaho should be part of Canada, as a citizen or legal resident, you have a right to think so, nutty as it would make you. When you started importing 11 million Canadians illegally into Idaho, and having them demonstrate, and showing Idaho as a part of Canada on a map on your "civil rights" organization's website, and stacking the deck in favor of Canadians by illegally signing up Canadians to vote in Idaho, I would begin to have second thoughts, and would take steps against your illegal actions. God Bless America.]

I do NOT support the breaking of existing laws, avoiding ignoring or or evading of legal employers' obligations in the making of your contract.

If you are NOT here legally, you should be removed, brown, white, green yellow or paisley. Even if you are from MARS, you do not automatically deserve American citizenship. If you are breaking existing laws in the making of your contract, it is not a legal contract, and it should be null and void. Existing laws are based on the parties' LEGAL STATUS, not their race color or creed. The race card just does not fit in this thread.

blitherington :bounce:

[sogod]

So you want more government intrusion into the lives of Americans?

There is nothing more fundamental to the preservation of economic liberty than the freedom to contract with another person for labor services. Greater state restrictions on that freedom is about as anti-capitalist as you can get. And it's economically very destructive. (It's no coincidence that the areas of this country with the strongest economic growth over the past decade have also seen the highest rates of immigration.)

On the contrary, I believe all government interference in the economy should be eliminated. But I was responding to someone who said we couldn't find and deport the illegals, which is flat out wrong.

But still, I dont quite see how asking for Americans to tip off the government voluntarily about crime means more intrusion?

[sogod]

The majority of immigrant families have minors that are native born Americans. We're definitely not shipping millions of American citizens anywhere, especially minors, and that means we're not shipping their legal guardians (regardless of their illegal immigrant status) anywhere either.

I am sure we could give the kids a choice of whether or not they wanted to go with their parents.

And BTW, while the majority of immigrant families may have American kids, could you show the statistics that say the same about illegal immigrants?

[tamtagon]

I am sure we could give the kids a choice of whether or not they wanted to go with their parents.

What?!?!

[sogod]

Frankly, it's easy to say there's a problem, and say "round 'em up and send 'em back!" but that isn't a plan. I've yet to see a credible plan to identify and deport millions of people. If it's illegal now to employ someone here illegally, I don't see how adding yet another fine is going to do anything.

I thought I just gave a plan... or are you saying its not credible? ;)

Look, its not like we have to do this all at once. There is no real deadline. Lets say we just set a quota for 250,000 a year and secure the borders so no more can come in.

The idea behind any plan that hopes to be effective is to get the illegals that are here to move back by their own volition. Obviously, we dont want to deport 11 million people. But if we just start deporting some, the others will see it, and anticipating that the same thing could happen to them, they would leave too. Obviously we should also offer some kind of way to turn yourself in and get a free ticket back to your home country without any real punishment.

Is that such a bad plan? Is it better or worse than having the law applied equally to everyone, or having the law only applied to some people when its not to harsh and doesn't make them and others too saaaaaaaaad :(:(:(?

[sogod]

What?!?!

Presumably the kids would want to stay with their parents when they are deported.

[tamtagon]

Presumably the kids would want to stay with their parents when they are deported.

What are you going to do with the kids who want to stay in America?

[mdunlap1]

The government is really the only tool we have for that, imperfect and screwed up as it is. Otherwise, (economic) might governs all, the powerful rule the less powerful with an iron hand

Actually, inequality and power is what the government is all about. It doesn't minimize the control of the rich and powerful over the poor... it greatly exacerbates it. And it has throughout human history. Our government is no different. There is no greater equalizer known to man than economic liberty... which is probably why our government is so radically opposed to it.


Here legally? then I fully support your right to do anything you choose within the law

Good deal. Then we should also let anyone who chooses to come here do so freely. As human beings were free to do until about 100 years ago.


including to contract with anyone you please for any legal purpose, with anyone else who is here legally

Sorry. Your government enforced caveats are just more attempts by you to coerce me. No thanks.


I do NOT support the breaking of existing laws

I bet you drive over the speed limit, cross streets outside the crosswalk, and break laws our government's agents have set up over you all the time. I would oppose their attempting to deport you for doing so in those cases as well.


If you are breaking existing laws in the making of your contract, it is not a legal contract, and it should be null and void.

Remove your laws, which are nothing more than you attempting to physically force others to do what you want them to do, and there won't be any problem.

[mdunlap1]

On the contrary, I believe all government interference in the economy should be eliminated. But I was responding to someone who said we couldn't find and deport the illegals, which is flat out wrong.

Fair enough.


But still, I dont quite see how asking for Americans to tip off the government voluntarily about crime means more intrusion?

The government barring Americans from contracting with whomever they choose to contract is an intrusion into their lives. A physically-enforced restraint on economic liberty. Now, one can argue that there are times when that type of intrusion is needed (I've yet to see a case where it is, fwiw), but it is definitely intrusion. Aiding the government with information to restrain people's liberty in employment and labor only furthers their intruding abilities.

[mdunlap1]

Is that such a bad plan?

If your goal is to greatly inhibit economic liberty (leading to a much weaker economy in the geographical region currently ruled over by the American government), then it's a great plan.


Is it better or worse than having the law applied equally to everyone

Worse.

The law shouldn't even exist. It's immoral and economically destructive.

[blitherington]

I bet you drive over the speed limit, cross streets outside the crosswalk, and break laws our government's agents have set up over you all the time. I would oppose their attempting to deport you for doing so in those cases as well.


Your logic is so lame. you must be very young. The legal penalty for driving over the speed limit is a ticket, not deportation. I refuse to waste any more time having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.

b :bounce:

[mdunlap1]

The legal penalty for driving over the speed limit is a ticket, not deportation.

The point was that you don't care that much about the law in some cases but do in other cases.

There's a reason why, and it doesn't have anything to do with all that "preservation of culture" nonsense you spew.

It's because you just really don't give a fonk about obeying some of our government's laws. And good for you. You shouldn't. Just as I don't care about people disobeying its immigration laws.

[Vicman]

I say that it's actually a combination of race and class - though class moreso than race.

Even today, Mexico has a highly divided social structure; poor Mexicans live in separate worlds from rich Mexicans.

[mikedsjr]

Poor is understating their plight.