DTD Tunnels/Skywalks: Under & Over Downtown's Streets

[mikedsjr]

How many people do we not see because they are in air conditioned tunnels? I've read a little and it appears that the tunnels are hindering the growth of business like grocery stores coming to DTD.

[jsoto3]

granted, i have never worked in an office building downtown that is connected to the tunnels and spent much time in them, but i have roamed through them a bit. and when i did (early afternoon) they were very busy. i suspect that if the tunnels didn't exist and all of these people were on the streets above, downtown streetlife would resemble that of the loop in chicago or even manhattan, atleast during the day.

[gc]

Indeed it would jsoto. The tunnel system in DTD is like another city.....

[Hunter Wadle]

Why do they not just make a grocery store downtown that has a the connection to the tunnel system, like a pedestrian subway station...........just an idea....

[Horn96]

I think it would be great to just get rid of the tunnels and force people above ground. I realize they are nice to have in the heat of the summer but they would be a much greater good from getting people out on the streets during the day.

[TexasStar]

I agree! We need to find a way to get rid of those blasted tunnels.
Downtown street life would blossom if those things were filled in or turned into subways. :)

[bloodandpopcorn]

Is there any feasibility into turning them into subways? Or would it be just about as expensive to convert as it would be for DART to start fresh?

Eitherway, I agree, let's get rid of them! Who's up for an email or two to good ole Laura?

[psukhu]

We shouldn’t focus our efforts on removing downtown infrastructure. That will just make it easier for companies to choose the suburbs when their office leases come up for renewal.

Many large cities have pedestrian tunnels, yet they still have a vibrant streetscape just above. There needs to be a reason for a pedestrian to choose the surface over the tunnel. We should focus our efforts on things like getting major retailers on the street level.

The people have to be lured out of the tunnels. Eliminating the tunnels and forcing people onto the surface may backfire.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Well, then, is there any way to make some of the tunnel restaurants two-level? I.E., you can enter from the tunnel, then, maybe sit up street level and exit street level. or vice versa. Add more ways to switch between the two?

[bel]

I'm always looking for a big picture view of downtown and referencing maps for building/restaurant locations, etc. Here is a great one: http://www.dallasalert.com/ddallasmap.pdf It is color coded by development type (retail, restaurant, residential, office, etc) and has a good key.

Also interesting (and hard to find): a map of the Dallas CBD tunnel/skywalk system: http://www.taitlifto.net/downtowndallas/dallastunnelmap_big.html

Feel free to add other great maps you know of.

--Bella

[gc]

helluva find bel. I have never seen that before! thanks

[mikedsjr]

I'm curious.

How many of you use the tunnels? How much foot traffic do you notice down there?

I've used only the one for the parking garage that connects to Lincoln Plaza, but i really didn't see that much traffic in there, but its not on the main part either.

[gc]

i have never been down there.....I am afraid! plus when I get home from work....the tunnels are closed already!

[bel]

Where I live is attached to the BankOne tunnels. There are places to pick up convenience store-type items and coffee, etc. I thought I might go down there to grab a morning coffee/bagel, but I only go down there to use the Bank One ATMs. I'd walk in the tunnels on hotter/colder/rainy days, but they don't attach to my office.

Out of curiosity, I walked South from Bank One in REAL tunnels around lunchtime one day (not shops, just walkways underground). There was almost no one in there.

Bel

[crescentboi]

Bella, if i can ask which building do you live in? i ask because i'm soon moving downtown to a building that's connected and have yet to explore.

[CTroyMathis]

City controversy afoot regarding walkways
02:12 PM CST on Saturday, February 28, 2004
By DAVID FLICK / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/022904dnmetflick.35c60.html

There is a place in downtown Dallas where the vision of a vibrant future for the urban center already exists.

At certain hours, the restaurants are jammed. Jostling crowds pass in front of a drugstore, gift shop or optometrist's office. Friends stop and chat on the public byways, and there is little fear of crime.

But you could stand on an Elm Street sidewalk and not see any of this – it is happening one story below your feet.

Supporters of a revitalized downtown are often unsure how to regard the pedestrian walkways that wind beneath – and, at some points, above – the city streets.

The walkways, which were assembled piecemeal by building owners beginning in the 1960s, now stretch for three miles. The shops and restaurants that line the walkways account for about 1 out of every 8 square feet of downtown retail space.

Mayor Laura Miller, in a speech earlier this month to the Central Dallas Association, urged that those shops and restaurants be returned to street level, and other city officials have voiced similar hopes.

"It's an asset for the building owners, but a liability for the streets," said Assistant City Manager Ryan Evans. "It saps the vitality of street level, no doubt about it."

Mr. Evans said city officials were engaged in informal discussions to shift retail back to the streets. And a recent city decision to temporarily delay renewal of a license for an overhead walkway bridge was interpreted by supporters as the city signaling its displeasure with the system.

Mr. Evans said there were three schools of thought on what to do with the pedestrian walkway system – 1) Leave it alone 2) Connect it more directly with the streets 3) "Fill it with water, and use it for scuba diving."

But Larry Fonts, president of the Central Dallas Association, is a staunch defender of the walkways.

"There's a feeling that they should be eliminated to improve the urban environment, but that's navel-gazing as far as I'm concerned," he said. "They're there, they're popular, they generate taxes. Why on earth would you want to get rid of them?"

[freewaytincan]

I know this is really off topic, but I was staring at that map in a partially asleep state, and I realized something odd about the site design of the Dallas City Hall property...

[Foucault]

That is odd. :D

[tamtagon]

UrbanLandscape, I love you, in God's way.


"It saps the vitality of street level, no doubt about it."

The tunnels dont sap the vitality nearly as much as the scorching Texas heat. If I had to wear nice clothes to work every day, I would trade with businesses in the tunnels more often, it just more comfortable (a suit in the summer, please, no). But really, as the trend to recharge the CBD becomes more popular the tunnel businesses will continue to serve core customers - office workers avoiding bad weather, and street level operations with longer hours of operation will cash in on evening visitors. I hope the politicians dont go overboard in their support of CBD revitalization and inadvertantly penalize underground businesses.


The Center for the Performing Arts Foundation proposes that a new underground DART station be built near Routh Street, where the rail system plunges underneath the surface. The station would be connected by tunnel or walkway to the planned arts complex.

I wonder if council members would exempt from comtempt a tunnel from a DART station to the Arts District. In the future when DART is my transportation to the Arts District, I think I would prefer the final walk to be above ground rather than in a tunnel so I could look around at the buildings and stuff.

[drumguy8800]

I went to downtown dallas on January the 5th, 2004.. and my friend and I wondered around downtown for hours.. just seeing what there was to see. The tunnel system, to me, was certainly amazing. We entered it at Thanksgiving Square, (which is a really cool part of downtown: Complete urban canyon, you aren't surrounded by any parking lots and the DART LRT whizzes by.. pretty impressive..) and walked under it to Energy Plaza, where there was a massive hord of people wondering around. It was about 11AM, so it was the beginning of the lunch break. A lot of the tunnels that you enter through doors from the main system where ones that led to parking garages: and hence, there weren't many people wondering around there. We took the tunnels over to Renaissance tower, where there is a really cool foodcourt.. and it has a CHICK-FIL-A!! \m/.. hords of people there too. I didn't get any pictures of the tunnel system, unfortunately. I didn't wanna look like a tourist.. an annoying one that takes pictures of buildings.. yeah.. walking around taking shots of a tunnel seemed weird to me. I wish I had though. Hoping to go back and explore this spring..

[freewaytincan]

Originally posted by drumguy8800
I didn't get any pictures of the tunnel system, unfortunately. I didn't wanna look like a tourist.. an annoying one that takes pictures of buildings.. yeah.. walking around taking shots of a tunnel seemed weird to me. I wish I had though. Hoping to go back and explore this spring...

Don't worry about it man, that's all I was doing yesterday at the forum meet.

And welcome to the board!

[gc]

City looking to lure downtown's tunnel businesses aboveground
10:19 PM CDT on Wednesday, May 19, 2004
By DAVE LEVINTHAL and EMILY RAMSHAW / The Dallas Morning News

Two weeks ago, Mayor Laura Miller visited Runette Benbrook at her office supply store beneath Dallas' downtown streets. As the women talked shop amid stacks of letterhead and sparkling cases of fountain pens, Ms. Miller asked, "How can we convince you to move up to ground level?"

Ms. Benbrook's reply: "You can't."

"We're happy where we are," said Ms. Benbrook, who has managed Preferred Office Products Express under 1201 Main St. for 11 years. "Don't you know what it's like up there?" Such a sentiment is typical of the dozens of people who work in downtown's network of air-conditioned, subterranean tunnels selling office workers everything from fast food to car rentals. In hopes of luring workers out of the tunnels and onto downtown streets, the City Council is considering granting $2.5 million in rent and building improvement subsidies to retailers who open shops in aboveground storefronts. But Dallas' underground fraternity is holding out. Geraldine Hale Florist has been in Grady and Nancy Smith's family for nearly 75 years. And for 17 of those years, the shop has been in the Dallas underground. The couple has sold flowers above and below ground and said the city couldn't pay them to leave their current spot.

"It's not just that we're underground – we're where the business is," Mr. Smith said. "We need to be where the people who spend money are." Meandering beneath downtown, connecting more than three dozen buildings and several hotels, the tunnel system permits much pedestrian traffic to flow through, Mr. Smith said. The tunnel system was an idea born of 1970s urban planning. The idea was that business-filled, climate-controlled corridors linking Dallas' skyscrapers were preferable to pedestrians ambling along sweltering city streets devoid of business life.


Outdated idea?

That philosophy is outdated, some city officials say. Ms. Miller and Mayor Pro Tem John Loza see downtown streets bursting with potential. Restaurants and urban apartments are sprouting up like bluebonnets in April, and a supermarket is slated to open next year on Jackson Street. What downtown needs is an infusion of retail, they say. "Ideally, I'd like to see the tunnels phased out completely," said Mr. Loza, noting that some tunnels are privately owned. "We've got to have a more aggressive approach to downtown retail, and the tunnels are certainly detrimental to street-level retail."


'Desperate for retail'

Ms. Miller said the situation is urgent: "We're desperate for retail. The answer ... is getting more people downtown and fixing empty, ugly buildings." Dallas Assistant City Manager Ryan Evans sees it another way. He wants vacant downtown real estate filled with retail businesses that draw shoppers downtown, he explained. At the same time, he sees Dallas' tunnel businesses complementing, and even thriving from, surface commerce. Today, visitors to Dallas might walk the length of the tunnel system aboveground with no indication of the activity below their feet. As part of the city's proposed Retail Recruitment Initiative, which would permit the Dallas Downtown Partnership to distribute $2.5 million in tax incentives to would-be surface businesses, directional signs promoting underground businesses would also be installed.

Currently only four of the 92 underground businesses are eligible for the incentives, which are aimed to lure "unique, urban, destination retail." Most of the underground shops peddle food or provide services such as flowers or shoe repair. "We're not trying to close anyone down. They provide a great service," Mr. Evans said of the tunnel businesses. "We hope to kind of intertwine the two, and it's even more than symbiotic. If you have more people downtown, it'll provide more business for the underground." In a perfect Dallas, "I wish we didn't have a tunnel system," said Nancy Hormann, the partnership's executive director. "But we do have a tunnel system." A goal, therefore, is not to fight against the underground but attract businesses such as Kül Design, a custom furniture business, to Main, Commerce and Elm streets. The Dallas Downtown Partnership is using a 12- point criteria system to determine the "desirability" of potential surface-level downtown retailers. Such a business, for example, would receive 10 points for creating 75 to 100 jobs, compared to three points for 25 to 49 jobs. A business relocating from the tunnels, such as an Eckerd drugstore, gets a 10 point bonus, according to city records. Kül Designs scored 50 out of 100. Based on the formula, Kül would receive a $300,000 building improvement allowance and a $326,124 rent subsidy.


Fans on both sides

But no matter the city's focus on aboveground retail, fans of both worlds abound. Janet Koechel has worked on the 30th floor of the Renaissance Tower for three months. But the consultant finds herself in the shops underground before work, during lunch and sometimes again after work. "I forget how convenient it is," she said, outside a Starbucks underneath One Main Place. Ms. Koechel said she likes to be on street level once in a while. But, she said, the underground is a real asset to the folks who use it. "Business down here would really suffer," if shops were forced to move, she said. Alan Levy, general manager of the aboveground City Tavern, said moving businesses out of the tunnels would improve life for downtown residents and workers. "There's no such thing as too competitive – it's always good for business," he said. "The underground does nothing to help the traffic to places that are new and are trying to get a foothold down here."


WHAT LIES BENEATH

The tunnels that zigzag beneath streets, buildings and parking lots, linking up in lobbies and plazas and intersecting with a few sky bridges, connect more than 35 buildings. Elevators and ramps make most of the system accessible to wheelchairs. Currently four underground businesses meet the standards suggested by the city for tax incentives to move above ground.

There are 92 stores underground. Some of what you'll find:

-Banks
-Beer and wine to go
-Brokerages
-Coffee
-Cookies and cookie bouquets
-Dentists
-Drugstores
-Eye care
-Florists
-Greeting cards and gifts
-Hair salons
-Income tax advice
-Jewelry
-Kareer Kids Child Development Center
-Laundries and dry cleaners
-Massages
-Medical care
-Nondegree classes at Universities Center at Dallas
-Office supplies
-Post offices
-Restaurants
-Shoe repair
-Smoothies
-Software
-Souvenirs
-Travel agencies
-Women's clothing

[sterling]

So if they successfully "lure" retailers out of the tunnels, won't tunnels become as deserted and dangerous as city streets? This another bass-ackwards attempt to solve the problem by "shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic". There is a market obviously for those who wish to remain underground in air-conditioned comfort, and soon thea market will expand to include those who wish to lead above-ground lives. The empty storefronts and apartments must be filled with new blood itching to relocate from the suburbs, or new merchants coming in from out of town. As the downtown population grows, both environments can prosper without seeking to shut down "the other". I hate to always use NYC as an example, but there are plenty of storefronts and plenty of tunnels with "small scale newsstands and sundry" retail. Some even bleed into each other like Bloomingdale's, which you can enter directly from below ground at the subway. Why does it have to be either/or?

[F4shionablecHa0s]

I highly doubt the tunnels would become dangerous. There's a really easy way to stop all the crime in a tunnel: Lock the entrances.

The tunnels do provide a valuble service for transportation downtown, but I just don't think that buisnesses belong down there. Also, the tunnels become absolutely deserted after all the office workers leave and some sections of the network close down pretty early. This was fine a few years ago, but now that there is a rapidly growing residential market downtown I think we need to have buisnesses that stay open later to cater to those who don't evacuate downtown at 5PM to go to their suburban homes.

[drumguy8800]

Or we can keep the tunnels and lure businesses from Frisco into above-ground locations downtown. You see, if we boarded up the tunnels.. and at some point there wasn't any more room above-ground for retial downtown.. and we wanted to reopen the tunnels to make room for more retail.. they would be horrendously out-of-date and beyond repair. I say keep the tunnels instead of forcing them above ground.. we should be attracting MORE retail, not shuffling it about..

[tamtagon]

The idea was that business-filled, climate-controlled corridors linking Dallas' skyscrapers were preferable to pedestrians ambling along sweltering city streets devoid of business life.

Outdated idea?

That philosophy is outdated, some city officials say.

I dont think the idea is outdated at all, at least while the Texas summers make it impossible not to sweat in a suit. Tunnels will always be cleaner and more comfortable than the street, and Dallas is fortunate to have such an extensive network for office worker convenience. I would even be in favor of expanding the connection to more office towers.

It's great that city officials put reactivating the CBD so high on the priority list, but the business the CBD most needs are those which do not cater to office workers on lunch breaks. The tunnels are perfect for a quick trip during a busy day; for a long lunch, something nicer above ground is better. I would prefer day care centers to locate in the tunnels.

[LakeHighlands]

I like the tunnels. I think Dallas can have both the tunnels and street level retail. Closing the tunnels will hurt Dallas. I’m sorry, but it is too hot here in the summer to be walking around downtown Dallas in a suit. This is not the Northeast. I know if the tunnel shops are close, my colleagues and I would buy what we need before we get to downtown or get in our cars and drive somewhere else to get what we need. Walking around Downtown Dallas in the hot summer sun and getting sweaty does not portray a professional look. Do not forget that visiting business professionals from Europe, Asia, and other parts of the country might be in for a shock when they walk out into the 100 degree heat to get around DTD. As more people move to DTD, I think it would be great if more retail shops open on the street level, but to not force underground shops to move above ground. The underground is mostly for the people who work in DTD. With high vacancy rates in DTD, the city needs to make careful decisions in an effort not to run off more business. DON’T CLOSE THE TUNNELS.

[drumguy8800]

Number one, it gets up to about 100° routinely during the summer. Number two, downtown is a giant concrete island. What the crap do you expect? I'd say its a safe bet, that if you go stand in a surface lot near Fountain Place, its probably something like 20° hotter than say.. St. Paul street through the Arts District, where trees line the street, creating a cool, comfortable spot. Compare these two pictures, and see where you'd rather be on a hot, Texas day:

http://www.ovillachurchofchrist.com/derek/collection/04100410s.jpg
St. Paul Street, in between the DMA and Nasher..
Source: my own website (http://www.ovillachurchofchrist.com/derek/)..

or here:

http://www.dallassky.com/elm_street.jpg
Elm Street..
Source: Dallas Sky (http://www.dallassky.com).

No, not a great comparison.. but I think it represents what I'm getting at. We need tree lined streets. We aren't quite as lucky as say, Seattle, where trees, although present, are not necessarily needed. In Dallas they are VERY MUCH needed, and horribly nonexistant. Trees help a lot.. and so do water features, especially on hot days, where even the slight mist from a water fountain helps keep you cool. The St. Paul picture also isn't a great example of a street lined with 'shade trees..' as they are hardly 'leafy,' but I would have to guess that the trees (bald cypresses?) make it a much more comfortable walk.

[hamiltonpl]

You make a very good point. We need relief from the summer heat here in Texas. As long as Texas is hot in the summer there will be a desire for airconditioned comfort.

I have seen renderings of Main street that had a glass covering over the sidewalks. Perhaps a tinted glass covering and a little mister running through it would also alleiviate the summer heat.

[tamtagon]

The summer's great for night time activities, and that's what should be recruited to the CBD, nightlife. Besides, if this huge retail/entertainment surge hits, the office workers may be even more reluctant to venture out of the tunnels, since they may not have time or patience to casually browse and patiently wait in the check out line of a store crowded by day trippers. Every so often there is mention of city officials trying to make the CBD a 24 hour activity center, I'd think the evening hours are the best starting place. What kind of activity do city officials imagine between 4-6 a.m.?

[TexasStar]

No question, those infernal tunnels should be closed and filled in.
Downtown activity belongs on downtown streets. Just do it, people will adjust and the city will benefit from the return of VISIBLE commerce.

And people who live in the South shouldn't whine about how hot it gets.
That never ceases to amaze me. Do people in Minnesota complain about the harsh winters? Doubtful.

[MustangMonkey]

Is it really necessary to wear a suit in 100degree wether?
If this isn't the NE why dress like it is. In jamaca they don't wear 3 piece suits, they adapt to the climate, why not do the same.

I don't know if this would work, but couldn't they put up a system of walkway celing fans, the breeze should keep it relativly cool.

[psukhu]

Is it really necessary to wear a suit in 100degree wether?


My wife is an attorney in DT and she's either going to court or meeting a client at her office. So she has to wear a suit no matter what the weather. (most of the big law firms in DFW are in either DT Dallas or DT FW because of the prestigious office buildings and proximity to the courts)

Her sister works for a big 5 accounting firm, also in DT Dallas. They also have to wear suits because they meet with clients.

In both cases they have many clients that are based in the northeast.

[tamtagon]

Do people in Minnesota complain about the harsh winters? Doubtful.

Of course they do, and that's why the largest enclosed mall is in Minnesota - so the people can be comfortable in the winter. Canadian cities have similar enclosures. Just because I live in the hot south, does it mean I have to be uncomfortable when it's hot? The tunnels are a convenience for office workers and are not set up for window shopping. The visible street commerce is for the people who are not sitting behind a desk until it's time to go home.

In order to attrack more office workers, the city should be working toward tunnel expansion. To attract more retail consumers to the CBD, the city should become more aggressive with tax incentives and rent subsidies.

[psukhu]

Toronto's downtown tunnel system is much bigger than the one in DT Dallas. However, Toronto winters are more brutal than Dallas summers.

[Tralfaz]

Miniapolis has a skywalk system for the winter times. It's the same kind of concept (allow someone to go anywhere in downtown without going outside).

[crescentboi]

Yes, Minneapolis does have the sky walk system, but I still think that they have a much better balance than we do. Their big departments stores and other businesses that are connected to the skywalk also have direct access to outside.

As far as the weather up there is concerned, I was raised there as a child and from what I noticed a lot of people took it with a grain of salt. When you went outside you went twice your normal size because of all the extra clothing! Nobody was interested in impressing anyone! You had to stay warm! In Dallas, people are so concerned about impressing people and looking "Professional" that they stay in a full black suit! Now I don't feel as bad for the women since they can wear skirts that are lighter and let more air in and shoes that aren't as enclosed and blouses/light linen jackets, etc. Of course this is their own choice, but most men I see in suits are in black, navy blue or dark gray suits from head to toe. That sucks, I've had to do it for the past couple of years and don't like it! I understand that yes a lot of the larger firms in Dallas to deal with a great deal of Northeastern people, but even when they come down here they're misserable cause it's so damn hot! So why doesn't everyone just get rid of the suits for the summers? That way more people could be out on the streets if they wanted to and provide a more urban feel year round!

[larchlion]

i used to concern myself much more with local climates until someone once told me, "these people DECIDED to live there", wherever that might be. point being, that no matter how bad a climate, people obviously don't mind it too bad. i'm not saying don't take it into account at all, but there are much better solutions to combat oppressive heat or blustery cold weather, heat especially, than anti-urban tunnel and skybridge schemes. they're mostly the product of futuristic modernism of the 60's to 80's that we have been combatting ever since.

people tend to focus too much on the extremes, when the weather is 70-90 and sunny 9 months out of the year, at the expense of general urban health.

[drumguy8800]

http://www.ovillachurchofchrist.com/derek/pictures/dallas/downtown/030604/P3060054.JPG

Sorry for the large photo size.. I got this back in March. Shows just how much is down there..

[Lakewooder]

What about better access to and from the streets to the tunnels?

[drumguy8800]

One of the reasons that the tunnels are doing so well and the surface retail kinda sucks.. could be because the stores below in the tunnels are more or less incorportated.. like, the tunnels are pretty much dedicated to retail.. (as well as parking garages.) Like Stone Street, only on a grander scale.. If we, say.. took over Pacific Street.. or even Elm, and had one developer buy up all the retail space at the bottom of buildings, and they turned it into 'Elm St. Mall' or 'Pacific St. Mall' or something.. I think that could be successful. Right now, things are all mumbo-jumbo and owned by a number of different companies without a common goal. If we got the stores to unite.. and made some aesthetic uniformity to give it that 'mall feel..' (like, make street lights along Elm that are like the ones on Main.. but they would have some kind of indication that it was a 'mall'.. or something.) We could certainly attract something like Gap and Old Navy and other big names if we actually set out with a plan instead of just prodding developers to stick their shop in an empty hole all by themselves..

[crescentboi]

how about they increase their hours for a start! what about us residents who need restaurants at 8pm, sorry i don't like to have dinner at 4!! that would be a start.

[drumguy8800]

how about they increase their hours for a start! what about us residents who need restaurants at 8pm, sorry i don't like to have dinner at 4!! that would be a start.

Doesn't the Starbucks at Commerce and Akard (the one attatched to the Magnolia) close at 2 pm on saturdays..? They're fixing it to a much later time, I think.. but thats a horrible time to close! Everytime I go downtown, I always want a coffee.. and I can't ever get one.

[texcolo]

I think the tunnels and the street can coexist.

Dallas is a big city with plenty of money.

DT is getting new residential developments every month. DT residents are the ones who are going to be shopping on the streets. The tunnels are strictly 9 to 5.

[gc]

I think the tunnels and the street can coexist.

Dallas is a big city with plenty of money.

DT is getting new residential developments every month. DT residents are the ones who are going to be shopping on the streets. The tunnels are strictly 9 to 5.

You are correct texcolo. The street level needs to exist for those who choose to live and play in downtown after five. When the time is right, those tunnel business owners will want to come to the street to get ALL the activity. Unitl then, they should coexist.

Like always, I suggests emailing the mayor and council to make your opinion known.

[RayM]

Hrm, I typed up a longish reply yesterday, but I think I forgot to hit Submit Reply :)

Basically, I don't see how the tunnels are hurting downtown development so much. Their customer base is the 8-to-5 office crowd. The people who work there know they exist and what's down there - at least in the areas close to their offices. The advertising is mostly word-of-mouth. I know on stormy days, I took a longer route to lunch by tunnels than by street when I worked downtown. I also wouldn't want to pick up flowers or dry cleaning and carry them back in the rain.

Those of us who live downtown (or nearby) don't get to use the tunnels much. But slowly, there are beginning to be more businesses open after 5 o'clock at street level. These places are also open during the day and are co-existing with the tunnel businesses, and they are generating some foot traffic during the day. During lunch hours, I've seen many more pedestrians on downtown streets this spring than I've ever seen before.

[gc]

Dallas underground a heated issue
Plan to boost downtown by closing tunnels fought by shop owners
By THOMAS KOROSEC - Copyright 2004 Hoston Chronicle Dallas Bureau
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2638170

DALLAS -- When city officials began considering one of Mayor Laura Miller's bolder campaign promises last month -- closing the city's downtown pedestrian tunnels -- Naim Alasaad wished he had been tapped for advice. "I'd tell her we have two seasons, cold and hot. Both are no good for business on the street," said Alassad, who runs a bagel franchise in the tunnel, just off the marble-lined basement lobby of the Bank One building. "When it's hot, nobody is going outside for lunch."

Alassad should know. When he ran a street-level barbecue stand in the 1990s, Dallas' triple-digit summers shriveled his lunch trade by more than half, he said. Several of Alasaad's customers seconded his opinion about closing the tunnels as they finished their $5 sandwiches one recent afternoon. "Sounds like a stupid idea to me," said Alicia Patterson, a 43-year-old receptionist who is among the 110,000 Dallasites who work downtown. "With the bus fumes and all, you get where you're going and your hair's matted in your face."

Brad Morris, 27, a mailroom clerk, chimed in: "When it's broiling, (the tunnels) are the only thing that makes Dallas bearable." Since 2001, when Boeing Co. picked Chicago over Dallas for its headquarters and made a few painful observations about the city's sleepy core, a tax-supported nonprofit group called the Downtown Partnership has been trying to pump life into the empty storefronts on Main, Commerce and Elm streets. Neiman Marcus' 90-year-old flagship store -- a chic, valet-parked atoll in a sea of dead bank buildings, nail shops and pizza-by-the-slice joints -- is the only major retailer holding on in the city core.

Over the past several years, the area has attracted about 3,000 residents to renovated lofts, and a handful of hot, new restaurants have moved in. But several new eateries closed this spring, loft-dwellers remain without a supermarket or a drugstore, and people have begun worrying the momentum has stalled. "Our downtown's gone stagnant," said Dallas City Councilman Mitch Rasansky.

Loft developer Ted Hamilton said: "Our tenants want life. Activity. Something besides empty storefronts."

Nancy Hormann, the downtown partnership's executive director, said the tunnel issue comes up in almost every discussion about reviving retail. "People think if we didn't have those tunnels, we'd have retail and people on the street," she said. Like Sunbelt rivals Houston and Atlanta, Dallas began in the 1960s connecting new office towers and their subterranean retail floors with public, climate-controlled tunnels. Urban planners touted the mall-like design as an amenity for workers and a solution to congestion on the streets. Dallas' underground, which today is home to 92 shops and restaurants, runs about two miles and connects to about a mile of sky bridges. Houston's system stretches more than six miles.

"Clearly, they work like a giant vacuum. They suck people off the street," said Jodie Sinclair, spokeswoman for the Houston Downtown Management District. "I had a woman visiting from Manhattan ask me, `Where are all the people? It's Wednesday at 1 in the afternoon.' I told her, `Dear, they're all underground.' "

Over the past decade, Sinclair said, Houston has come to terms with its tunnels, even though "behind the scenes, people wish they weren't there." A loop in the system was completed in the 1990s, and the city's newest office tower, at 1000 Main Street, was designed to merge the tunnels and the outside world. In Dallas, city officials began examining possible closure of the tunnels this spring at the mayor's direction, said Dale Long, a spokesman for the Dallas public works and transportation department. Before the issue even got to its first public meeting, though, Miller began backing off. "I don't want to close the tunnels," she told the Houston Chronicle recently, declining to comment further.

Other Dallas City Council members who supported Miller say that as much as they wanted to do away with what they call an outdated urban design, the issue proved to be too divisive. Building owners and tunnel shopkeepers were stubbornly opposed, said Councilwoman Veletta Lill, and most of the underground shops are located on private property, not the publicly owned connecting passages. "We've been expending too much energy trying to get rid of them," Lill said. "We could use that energy on trying to attract new retail, not just shifting what we have up to the street."

Lill also said that few of the tunnels' convenience stores, card shops, shoe repairs and fast-food restaurants would provide Neiman Marcus the upscale company it wants. A new plan presented to the council Wednesday proposes that signs be posted on the street directing visitors to the little-known underground world. So in the future, if a visiting New Yorker happens to ask where everyone is in downtown Dallas on a hot afternoon, fresh signs will point to where they can be found.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Does the tunnel run under Main, or at least nearer to main than the little segment by Thanksgiving Square? I think having maybe one or two entrances per block, in the sidewalk like a subway or underground-street-crossing entrance would help allow people to use both the tunnel and above ground shops. But if the tunnel is too far away then that's a worthless idea.

[Lakewooder]

Does anyone have a tunnel network diagram? It's been so long since I've been down there, but it seems it has perpendicular offshoots toward Main, not the bulk of the thing. Perhaps it could be tied into the subway if it's close enough.

[Lakewooder]

Well, I found this:


http://www.taitlifto.net/downtowndallas/dallastunnelmap_big.html