Near East Dallas: New Henderson Ave. Developments

[tamtagon]

Frankly, it sounds like there's too many similar dining/entertainment destinations on Henderson that pull a crowd from well beyond the area. The history of Lower Greenville is a blueprint for the future of Henderson.

[mjblazin]

I don't think Dallas knows how to do entertainment districts or at least keep them. We've got too big a demand for a place to get wasted with a bunch of other mid-20s males. It's easy money for a bar owner with no worries about food critics, changing food tastes, etc. In a corollary to Gresham's Law, in Dallas, bad bars drive out good bars and restaurants. We repeat the cycle gain and again. Other cities seem to know how. Even Addisson seems to know how to do it. We in Dallas do not.

Maybe the ownership team in Henderson will be different.

[carousel]

do you all think people would use pedicabs? I'm asking because we're reviewing parking regulations right now (it's in committee) and maybe this somehow fits in.

I think any parking garage would have to be on Ross somewhere b/c no neighborhood is going to want it. Remember that there was an uproar when a multi-story building was going to be built where Newflower is located. Also, parking garages cost about (working off of memory) $20,000+ per space to build plus whatever land costs which are now high for that area. Who's going to take that on?

Was there truly an uproar or just the complaints of a very vocal minority (one person in particular comes to mind)? I bet if a survey was conducted the majority of the residents (who were not aware of the change in zoning request) would have been much in favor of the proposed changes at New Flower. In lieu of a what would have been a great mix used complex we got a mediocre grocery store (which I suspect is having a difficult time gaining its hoped for market share)

[ericthegardener]

In lieu of a what would have been a great mix used complex we got a mediocre grocery store (which I suspect is having a difficult time gaining its hoped for market share)

Not to argue your other points but I would say that Newflower is a pretty darn good grocery store. I go out of my way to shop there and I would be extremely happy if there were one in my part of town. Also there are a pretty decent amount of shoppers every time I go there.

[mstephdallas]

I agree. I live downtown and New Flower is my store of choice. Good stuff and much cheaper than Whole Foods. If I am headed that way, I will usually stop by Pearl Cup first :)

[elmstreetdallas]

I agree. I live downtown and New Flower is my store of choice. Good stuff and much cheaper than Whole Foods. If I am headed that way, I will usually stop by Pearl Cup first :)

Mark me down as a big fan of NewFlower as well.

Prices are great, and it's easy to get to from downtown.

[UrbanHope]

Was there truly an uproar or just the complaints of a very vocal minority (one person in particular comes to mind)? I bet if a survey was conducted the majority of the residents (who were not aware of the change in zoning request) would have been much in favor of the proposed changes at New Flower. In lieu of a what would have been a great mix used complex we got a mediocre grocery store (which I suspect is having a difficult time gaining its hoped for market share)


That's the thing..I was fairly new to City Plan at the time and thought it would be good as well. For whatever reason it never got on our agenda.


Love Newflower though - CM wins me with their service but I buy from Newflower as well.

[UrbanHope]

I don't think Dallas knows how to do entertainment districts or at least keep them. We've got too big a demand for a place to get wasted with a bunch of other mid-20s males. It's easy money for a bar owner with no worries about food critics, changing food tastes, etc. In a corollary to Gresham's Law, in Dallas, bad bars drive out good bars and restaurants. We repeat the cycle gain and again. Other cities seem to know how. Even Addisson seems to know how to do it. We in Dallas do not.

Maybe the ownership team in Henderson will be different.


I think this is part of the issue. Dallas will always be a regional draw IMO because it's a major city. This is where we start getting into choosing who patronizes a given establishment which to me IS a problem that exists mainly in Dallas. No age bracket's money or tax dollars are greener than any other. Addison succeeds because there's nothing around there - that is a regional draw if I ever saw one. I think they have 15-17K actual residents.

[R1070]

Downtown Dallas' problem - lots of metered parking, no connectivity in areas due to many surface lots
Deep Ellum problem - lots of metered parking, strict towing, booting
Victory Park problem - Feels like an island in a sea of surface parking lots disconnected from other areas
Henderson Ave problem - Not enough parking options other than valet

As Dallas keeps cars with parking solutions, more cars will continue to come. I don't understand why Dallas isn't trying anything to implement new ideas to change the culture in these areas. People in large cities use public transportation because those cities do not accomodate vehicle traffic much and driving becomes too much of a problem and residents choose other means of transport. If we keep accomodating cars, we will never get anyone out of them. I say nothing should be done about the parking, the city needs to be more creative. I'm looking forward to the younger generations growing up and being in charge because hopefully they will have some sense. No, not everywhere in needs to be anti-car but its nice to have an option to drive or take transit. In Dallas, the way Dart was laid out none of the main areas are served by it. There needs to be some form of rail such as a streetcar that goes through oak lawn, greenville, knox henderson and uptown. Dart serves as more of a commuter system rather than an urban rail system, it was built on the edges of neighborhoods rather than the hearts of them. This is why ridership numbers are so low.

[GuacaMohle]

DART is primarily a commuter system, just as most of the new urban train systems are in various cities across the country. IMHO, I agree with a friend who grieves that light-rail transit is typically beholden to the wealthier suburbs as a convenience to further sustain their ability to live further and further away from an urban core than to residents of a city who desire to use it as a means to live their lives.

It's true that DART rail has extensive reach into Oak Cliff. Not having ever lived there, I'm not sure if its residents find the placement of the rail stations practical or convenient.

Often I've lamented that there isn't a station at Knox/Henderson, Oak Lawn/Lemmon, Preston/NWH, Skillman/NWH, the Galleria, Beltline/Tollway, Lovers/Inwood, Bishop Arts, DFW -- places that people actually go to.

[torycronin]

Downtown Dallas' problem - lots of metered parking, no connectivity in areas due to many surface lots
Deep Ellum problem - lots of metered parking, strict towing, booting
Victory Park problem - Feels like an island in a sea of surface parking lots disconnected from other areas
Henderson Ave problem - Not enough parking options other than valet

As Dallas keeps cars with parking solutions, more cars will continue to come. I don't understand why Dallas isn't trying anything to implement new ideas to change the culture in these areas. People in large cities use public transportation because those cities do not accomodate vehicle traffic much and driving becomes too much of a problem and residents choose other means of transport. If we keep accomodating cars, we will never get anyone out of them. I say nothing should be done about the parking, the city needs to be more creative. I'm looking forward to the younger generations growing up and being in charge because hopefully they will have some sense. No, not everywhere in needs to be anti-car but its nice to have an option to drive or take transit. In Dallas, the way Dart was laid out none of the main areas are served by it. There needs to be some form of rail such as a streetcar that goes through oak lawn, greenville, knox henderson and uptown. Dart serves as more of a commuter system rather than an urban rail system, it was built on the edges of neighborhoods rather than the hearts of them. This is why ridership numbers are so low.

Dart services many of these areas quite well. I've taken the bus to most of them.

[dfwcre8tive]

Could always build one of these underground, out of sight :)

http://www.woehr.de/en/projekte/budapest_m730/index.htm

[CDallas]

The general public that is going out to eat or to party will not use a bus en mass to get to and from a night out. You must have permanent rail based streetcars that you can get back and forth for that to take hold otherwise get used to the cars. Dallas needs to get on the modern streetcar movement fast for its urban core or be left behind by other cities already laying track.

[cowboyeagle05]

Henderson is a popular night spot people are not going to use DART that stops running around midnight people are out later than that.

[CDallas]

I am not taliking about light rail I am talking about modern streetcar service and who say that all of the lines have to end at Midnight. This is all speculative so why not speculate about a new streetcar system that can move people around the urban core of the city. Other cities have built or are planning out their systems as we speak. Yes it involves money but so what everything does it is just a matter of how you choose to spend it and where it is going to get you in the future.

[LH_Newbie]

Henderson is a popular night spot people are not going to use DART that stops running around midnight people are out later than that.
Henderson has more traffic/patrons during lunch on the weekend and dinner every night than it does post-midnight, so even if they stopped transit services at midnight, a majority of the people visiting (and during the peak usage periods) could be serviced by a street car system.

[torycronin]

The general public that is going out to eat or to party will not use a bus en mass to get to and from a night out. You must have permanent rail based streetcars that you can get back and forth for that to take hold otherwise get used to the cars. Dallas needs to get on the modern streetcar movement fast for its urban core or be left behind by other cities already laying track.

So the statement is the people who go out on Henderson are too pretentious for the bus. Got it.

[MarkL2023]

So the statement is the people who go out on Henderson are too pretentious for the bus. Got it.

And this surprises you? Most people in Dallas fear the stigma attached to buses sigh

http://meltedreelonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/treehorror5.jpg

[CDallas]

this is not about pretension and is all about perception and has been proven with studies of transit models. Buses are not perceived as permanent and train tracks are I can't make it any simpler.

[dmorg12345]

I don't think many people take the bus or train when they go out late to bars in cities like Chicago and San Fran. Not just a Dallas problem. When I have visited friends in urban cities, we take public trans in the day and cabs when we go out at night.

Also, I googled my public trans route from my place at Pearl and Cedar Springs... it has me walking to San Jacinto and Olive and then a bus route goes right up Ross to Henderson, total trip taking ~30 mins. If I was going out in a big group, I would just take a cab as the incremental cost is worth the time savings.

[CDallas]

I will concede that Dallas is not yet dense enough to have an urban streetcar system but all I am saying is that the Henderson issues warrant a long term planning for one and we should plan for density and how to service it in the future. I took the streetcar out to dinner and drinks in Portland and then took a cab home so at least it might be a half and half solution.

[ihavebeenseen]

I think a Bixi style bike share would work well in this general area.

[DallasMan]

I will concede that Dallas is not yet dense enough to have an urban streetcar system but all I am saying is that the Henderson issues warrant a long term planning for one and we should plan for density and how to service it in the future. I took the streetcar out to dinner and drinks in Portland and then took a cab home so at least it might be a half and half solution.

You know, I used to think like this...but then someone else pointed out - YES, Dallas is indeed dense enough to have an urban streetcar system b/c until the 1950's - we did! Sure, more people have cars now, but there are also a LOT more ppl in Dallas now.

[CDallas]

That was before GM had the government dismantle all of the streetcar systems and built the interstate hwy system.

[AeroD]

I got the solution. Y'all can go ahead and thank me now. Encourage development along Ross instead of Henderson. It can handle the traffic much better.

[BGM]

I got the solution. Y'all can go ahead and thank me now. Encourage development along Ross instead of Henderson. It can handle the traffic much better.

Until the city cleans up all the riffraff businesses on Ross people are not going to go there. Henderson doesn't have used car lots to deal with. I agree Ross can hold more traffic easily but that's about it--for now at least.

[elmstreetdallas]

Until the city cleans up all the riffraff businesses on Ross people are not going to go there. Henderson doesn't have used car lots to deal with. I agree Ross can hold more traffic easily but that's about it--for now at least.

It's already in the works.

The city is not renewing any of those "riffraff" business's permits.

It will take awhile, but eventually all of those businesses will be gone.

[BGM]

It's already in the works.

The city is not renewing any of those "riffraff" business's permits.

It will take awhile, but eventually all of those businesses will be gone.

Yeah I know it's been worked on for awhile but it's much riskier for investors to put in restaurants, etc. there than on Henderson. I will take quite awhile for Ross to see change.

[BGM]

It's already in the works.

The city is not renewing any of those "riffraff" business's permits.

It will take awhile, but eventually all of those businesses will be gone.


Yeah I know it's been worked on for awhile but it's much riskier for investors to put in restaurants, etc. there than on Henderson. I will take quite awhile for Ross to see change.

[mjblazin]

What do we mean _____ (fill in own measure) enough for streetcar systems? If the transit systems were normal businesses, I'd say having sufficient demand to pay variable expense. Since the riders only pay 6% of the tab, with the vast majority on some kind of pass not tied to usage in any single component, does it really make any difference what the local demand is? The financial return is almost the same.

I expect that DART probably allocates its capital funds by some measure that approximates demand or potential demand. Do they ever really explain the calculations? Most presentations I've seen show calculations to maximize demand on a system part, but nothing on why the part is there.

[kozzy]

I have lived near Henderson and Ross for many years. They did resurface Henderson actually only a few years ago (or maybe it was 5 or 6 years ago). It held up for a good 5 or 6 months and turned back into the crap pit it is now. Same thing happened with Ross. I don't mind the new businesses and popularity. It beats what we had there before (which was virtually nothing). I have found the drive home from work which ranges between 10PM and 3AM can be a horrible headache so plan accordingly and use Fitzugh/Bennett or Lemmon. Not a huge inconvenience.

[BGM]

I have lived near Henderson and Ross for many years. They did resurface Henderson actually only a few years ago (or maybe it was 5 or 6 years ago). It held up for a good 5 or 6 months and turned back into the crap pit it is now. Same thing happened with Ross. I don't mind the new businesses and popularity. It beats what we had there before (which was virtually nothing). I have found the drive home from work which ranges between 10PM and 3AM can be a horrible headache so plan accordingly and use Fitzugh/Bennett or Lemmon. Not a huge inconvenience.

I've lived a few blocks east of Henderson and Ross for 11 years now and Henderson has never been re-paved. Either has Ross.

[Mballar]

^ Yeah, I was scratching my head on that one too. However, there's no doubt Henderson needs to be re-paved, and the sidewalks need to be widened.

[eastdallasson]

both of those recommendations would be a big improvement. but reading stuff on here and especially in the DMN blogs has made it sound like there's a crisis situation on Henderson. The area's really successful! People like going there! The place is busy! Aren't these good things?

[sheilock]

both of those recommendations would be a big improvement. but reading stuff on here and especially in the DMN blogs has made it sound like there's a crisis situation on Henderson. The area's really successful! People like going there! The place is busy! Aren't these good things?

...if you live in the neighborhood, you know it's exciting, but getting close to a tipping point...

[eastdallasson]

please elaborate. is it noise? is it drunken revelers losing control of their emotion and/or bodily functions i.e. greenville? is it parking on resident only blocks?

[kozzy]

Then it was resurfacing. I distictly remember the new black top being laid because I remember remarking how nice it was and how short of a time it lasted. I don't know the correct "road terms" for construction but there were very temporary improvements. Because they did it the same time they removed the reversable lanes on Ross. Even though I haven't personally lived there, I was born in the area and have been visiting my family along that strip for my entire life. I said I wasn't exactly sure when it was and only estimated 5 or 6 years ago. It may have been longer than that but it DID happen.

[BGM]

Then it was resurfacing. I distictly remember the new black top being laid because I remember remarking how nice it was and how short of a time it lasted. I don't know the correct "road terms" for construction but there were very temporary improvements. Because they did it the same time they removed the reversable lanes on Ross.

I think you have Ross and Live Oak confused. Live Oak had reversible lanes and it was re--paved in Oct 2004 as part of part of the bound package. I live a block off of Live Oak so I should know. And the only part of Henderson that has been repaved is a tiny 2 blocks from 75 to right where Cuba Libre is. Everything east of that on Henderson looks like a road in Baghdad.

[kozzy]

Ross, Live Oak and Gaston all had reversable lanes. Ross was the first to lose them followed by Gaston and then Love Oak. Look on the sidewalks of Ross and you will observe large cylindric concrete bases which served as the supports for the lane lights. The Ross reversable lanes were extremely important when the widening of Central Expressway started in 1994 or 1995 (not sure which one). Ross' reversable lanes were used as a suggestion when you called the Central Expressway hotline (AKA 214-WIDEN75). I may not be good with time tables, but I do know streets and I distinctly remember these repavings. The main point is now that most of whatever improvements were made are now nil and both streets suck. This is a common proactice around dallas with mostly asphalt streets. I don't wish to get into an asphalt vs. concrete debate just to point out that a simple repaving will not last with the amount fo traffic that Henderson now carries. Honestly with the congestion it really doesn't matter because you will never be able tog o fast enough to do any significant damage to your car.

[JSteffen]

In case anyone was wondering the old Blue Collar space has been leased by the owner of Barcadia. They are converting it to a Beauty Bar as we speak. I am so excited. If you have ever been to a Beauty Bar you would be excited too!

http://www.beautybar.com/

[lakewoodhobo]

In case anyone was wondering the old Blue Collar space has been leased by the owner of Barcadia. They are converting it to a Beauty Bar as we speak. I am so excited. If you have ever been to a Beauty Bar you would be excited too!

http://www.beautybar.com/

When I lived in Austin I had a lot of friends or co-workers who would go for "martinis & manicures" at Beauty Bar. This will be the perfect spot for a place like that.

[BGM]

Ross, Live Oak and Gaston all had reversable lanes. Ross was the first to lose them followed by Gaston and then Love Oak. Look on the sidewalks of Ross and you will observe large cylindric concrete bases which served as the supports for the lane lights. The Ross reversable lanes were extremely important when the widening of Central Expressway started in 1994 or 1995 (not sure which one). Ross' reversable lanes were used as a suggestion when you called the Central Expressway hotline (AKA 214-WIDEN75). I may not be good with time tables, but I do know streets and I distinctly remember these repavings. The main point is now that most of whatever improvements were made are now nil and both streets suck. This is a common proactice around dallas with mostly asphalt streets. I don't wish to get into an asphalt vs. concrete debate just to point out that a simple repaving will not last with the amount fo traffic that Henderson now carries. Honestly with the congestion it really doesn't matter because you will never be able tog o fast enough to do any significant damage to your car.

Lakewooder--I know Ross had reversible lanes but it was a real small section from what I remember real close to downtown--further up north like near Fitzhugh, etc there weren't any--am I correct ? It wasn't the whole stretch of Ross like it was on Live Oak I think. I've been there since '99 and don't recall at all Ross being totally reversible the whole stretch unless it was pre '99.

Ok here we go---I just found this article--kind of cool actually it talks about the whole 75 construction and what went on. It looks like in '93 the reversible lanes were created on Ross and Live Oak to help with overflow while 75 construction was going on. So, when 75 was complete (probably like what '98?) they probably put Ross and Live Oak back to normal. I've been off of Live Oak since '99 so they were just being phased out.

http://www.dfwinfo.com/trans/outreach/rmi/northcentral.pdf

[BGM]

In case anyone was wondering the old Blue Collar space has been leased by the owner of Barcadia. They are converting it to a Beauty Bar as we speak. I am so excited. If you have ever been to a Beauty Bar you would be excited too!

http://www.beautybar.com/

So, they only market to females as far as business ? Or can guys come in and drink as well ?

[portyhead]

So, they only market to females as far as business ? Or can guys come in and drink as well ?

hahahah I was just thinkin the same thing!

[BGM]

hahahah I was just thinkin the same thing!

Yeah I will sit in there and get my drink on and get a pedicure if I know it's 100% females. That's like shooting fish in a barrel ha.

[mjblazin]

It's not 100% women. Guys bring in girlfriends and treat them to manicure/pedicure as the guy has a drink. I doubt they'd appreciate some guy getting his nails done in the next chair hitting on their girlfriends. The clubs have disco rooms. That's where you'll find your targets of opportunity.

[cmacemm]

It's not 100% women. Guys bring in girlfriends and treat them to manicure/pedicure as the guy has a drink. I doubt they'd appreciate some guy getting his nails done in the next chair hitting on their girlfriends. The clubs have disco rooms. That's where you'll find your targets of opportunity.
the ones in Austin and Chicago are the epitomy of hipster haven. wayyyyy too many leather jackets, tapered jeans, and ray bans. hard to diferentiate girls from guys. but i've seen some bad ass shows at the Austin location during SXSW

[JSteffen]

the ones in Austin and Chicago are the epitomy of hipster haven. wayyyyy too many leather jackets, tapered jeans, and ray bans. hard to diferentiate girls from guys. but i've seen some bad ass shows at the Austin location during SXSW
Correct sir. This place will he the coolest place in town. An amazing sound system has been designed and it has the best bar owner in town. The kinds of artist these places bring are what keep the creative working class people in town. I'm very excited myself. :-)

[ihavebeenseen]

i've seen some bad ass shows at the Austin location during SXSW

Same here. They always have good Electronica typed bands. Hopefully they try to bring some decent shows to the Dallas one.

[JSteffen]

Same here. They always have good Electronica typed bands. Hopefully they try to bring some decent shows to the Dallas one.

The owner is also co owner of http://www.fullaccessdallas.net/. Promotions and concerts are her specialty.