DTD: 500 South Ervay (old Butler Bros.)

[metrosteve]

In old photographs of downtown Dallas, there is a building, quite massive in scale that is identified as Butler Brothers. Today, that structure is known as 500 South Ervay and is, I believe, the site of a number of city offices (I could be wrong). My interest is piqued by the look of the building (dark brick) and its somewhat Sullivanesque appearance. Of course, as with so many of the cool-looking older downtown buildings (Praetorian, e.g.) remodeling in the 50's and 60's turned them into hideous "modern" structures.
In Minneapolis, there is a development called Butler Square and the photos seem to generally resemble the structure here in Dallas. Does anyone know anything about this Dallas building and its possible re-use for a mixed-use development project now, or at some time in the not-so-distant future?
Especially in light of the success of Southside-on-Lamar and the coming re-developoment of the similar Montgomery Wards complex on 7th Street in FW it would seems to be a subject worth investigating further.

[John T Roberts]

Steve, this is a building that I don't know about. Granted I had heard that it was called Butler Brothers and it shows up in pictures of early 1900's Dallas, so I do know that it is old. I think it is interesting that you have termed it somewhat Sullivanesque. It did resemble that style of architecture, but unfortunately, it has been remodeled over the years.

I believe that the City of Dallas does have some offices in that building. It would make a great loft apartment conversion.

[js]

This is just hearsay so do not pay much attention to it but I heard they where thinking of doing some work to the skin of this building.

[BigD5349]

There is a story in the DMN this morning that a plan is in progress to convert the old Butler Bros building to condos. This is the huge building next to City Hall. It was built in 1910, but got re-skinned in one of the infamous mid-century "modernizations" of many DTD buildings.

The developer is Bisno Development Co. They are seeking $15 in Downtown Connection TIF funding. The council is supposed to vote on it next month.

The conversion will include 321 residential units and 45,000 sq ft of retail.

[BigD5349]

I think this is a tipping point project for the SE quadrant of DTD, including Farmer's Market and the Government District. It has a problem to overcome, due to the homeless issue that will exist on its front door. But if this one succeeds, it could trigger many good things for that side of DTD.

Here's how the building looked originally:

http://www.watermelon-kid.com/dallas-sights/images/pcards/butler_bros-640.jpg

Here's how it looks today:

http://www.watermelon-kid.com/dallas-sights/images/photos/downtown/misc/downtown9.jpg

(Pictures credited to www.watermelon-kid.com)

[Mephis Gooseberry]

This Building?

http://img70.imageshack.us/img70/9449/butler9rm.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[BigD5349]

^Yes, that's it.

[Mephis Gooseberry]

Wow, that will look beautiful. I have always hated the current facade.

[DallasStar]

I used to work in that building, they will have a lot of work to do.

[BigD5349]

I used to work in that building, they will have a lot of work to do.

No doubt. Probably a situation similar to the old Sears Warehouse on South Lamar.

[Tnekster]

Where is this money coming from? I thought all monies were drained by the Merc.

[slfunk]

I am assuming they would be recreating the fascade in order to be granted that amount of TIF money? Thinking this because of the amount of restrictions put on TIF grants and what the city requires out of the project. Thank the DMN for making us believe that the MERC drained EVERYTHING. Its journalists LOVE to paint doom's day or heavenly scenarios just to catch your eye.

I am sure the developers know what is out there and are applying for what they can get based on the formula. They have to be working with the city to know what they can forsee otherwise they would not spend the money research this this far. There was blip about this project almost a year ago, so they have been working on it for some time.

[Tnekster]

^Well I hope they get the money, would love to see another reskinned building turned back to its original facade.

[BigD5349]

I am assuming they would be recreating the fascade in order to be granted that amount of TIF money? Thinking this because of the amount of restrictions put on TIF grants and what the city requires out of the project. Thank the DMN for making us believe that the MERC drained EVERYTHING. Its journalists LOVE to paint doom's day or heavenly scenarios just to catch your eye.

I am sure the developers know what is out there and are applying for what they can get based on the formula. They have to be working with the city to know what they can forsee otherwise they would not spend the money research this this far. There was blip about this project almost a year ago, so they have been working on it for some time.

The article also mentioned that a City Board has already approved the project, prior to it going to council. So, I assume the money has been earmarked.

The money is coming out of a very specific TIF: the "Downtown Connection TIF", which I assume is different from the Main Street TIF?

Lastly, mention was made that the funding is "subject to several caveats", and that the developer has filed a report about "how it will fulfill affordable housing requirements."

I hope that doesn't mean something like 511 N. Akard. I'm definitely for middle income housing, but low income housing in this area, considering the homeless situation, might take the whole area in the wrong direction. The area needs a good mix of income levels, and I'm sure that is the goal (I hope).

[crescentboi]

If you go by the building on the Ervay side you'll see that they have peeled away a few sections of the lower facade so you can see the granite "foundation" and also some of the brick above it. Looking at the original photo you realize how many idiots there are in this world.

Also when you talk about low income housing I really don't think it's such a bad thing. The only way I was initially able to move into the Davis Bldg was with the Intown Housing Program which lowered my rent due to the amount of money I made a year. Then when I changed jobs and got a large payraise I moved into a larger unit and left the IHP and payed considerably more. My point is that not all low income people are mooches or dirty, bad people....I most certainly am not.

[BigD5349]

You're right, I didn't mean to sound rude. What I'm saying is that area has been suffering and that to be healthy, it needs a mix of income levels.

I'll look for the red brick. I'm glad they will peel off this horrendous "modernization" treatment.



If you go by the building on the Ervay side you'll see that they have peeled away a few sections of the lower facade so you can see the granite "foundation" and also some of the brick above it. Looking at the original photo you realize how many idiots there are in this world.

Also when you talk about low income housing I really don't think it's such a bad thing. The only way I was initially able to move into the Davis Bldg was with the Intown Housing Program which lowered my rent due to the amount of money I made a year. Then when I changed jobs and got a large payraise I moved into a larger unit and left the IHP and payed considerably more. My point is that not all low income people are mooches or dirty, bad people....I most certainly am not.

[slfunk]

The article also mentioned that a City Board has already approved the project, prior to it going to council. So, I assume the money has been earmarked.

The money is coming out of a very specific TIF: the "Downtown Connection TIF", which I assume is different from the Main Street TIF?

Lastly, mention was made that the funding is "subject to several caveats", and that the developer has filed a report about "how it will fulfill affordable housing requirements."

I hope that doesn't mean something like 511 N. Akard. I'm definitely for middle income housing, but low income housing in this area, considering the homeless situation, might take the whole area in the wrong direction. The area needs a good mix of income levels, and I'm sure that is the goal (I hope).


I haven't read the article so I had not known if it was passed or not, but someone asked where the money was coming from because they had thought there was not anything left in the downtown TIF which is where the Merc is getting its 70 mil and not the main street. I was saying to thank DMN for making us believe that the Merc took everything and nothing would be left. They spent almost a week posting different articles on the subject, interviewing small businesses downtown and even got news 8 in on it.

Now I am not familar with Downtown Connection TIF (maybe that is the name of the downtown TIF where the council is seeing if they can expand it to include areas of uptown), but the downtown TIF is different from the Main Street TIF. I am actually not aware of a Main Street TIF, but main street retail incentives.

[slfunk]

Here's the story:

Abandoned building near City Hall slated for condominiums, retail
Board approves $15 million in public subsidies

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-500ervay_12bus.ART.State.Edition1.22bd7346.html

09:26 AM CDT on Friday, May 12, 2006
By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News


One of downtown Dallas' oldest buildings is primed for renovation from abandoned hulk into condominiums and retail space, now that a City Hall board has approved $15 million in public subsidies for it.

Built in 1910, the structure at 500 S. Ervay St. will be converted to 321 residential units and 45,000 square feet of retail, according to Bisno Development Co., which owns the property.

The building, vacant for most of the decade, sits across Ervay from City Hall.

The Downtown Connection Tax Increment Financing District board approved the $15 million in subsidies, subject to several caveats.

One is a report from the developer about how it will fulfill affordable housing requirements.

The Dallas City Council must approve the deal, which probably will come before it next month, city officials said.

"I don't believe the project can go forward without the subsidy," said Robert Bisno, chairman and chief executive of Bisno.

"But it's a great project."

E-mail dlevinthal@dallasnews.com

[rantanamo]

There are multiple downtown TIFs that actually overlap, right?

[slfunk]

There are multiple downtown TIFs that actually overlap, right?

Not to the best of my knowledge. There may be some points where the one covering Deep Ellum, and the one around Uptown intersect with the one in downtown, but I would have thought the city would not have allowed that. I know other then TIF's there are tax abatement, incentives etc. as other tools.

[Jack Flack]

http://www.dallas-edd.org/ardv.htm

This site has maps and descriptions of the City's TIFs and improvement districts.

[Justin Terveen]

...

[BigD5349]

Here's the original brick facade that crescent was talking about...

[Justin Terveen]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless043copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless043copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless040copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless040copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless022copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless022copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless020copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless020copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless018copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless018copy1.jpg)

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless015copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless015copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless014copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless014copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless013copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless013copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless012copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless012copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless010copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless010copy1.jpg)


http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless047copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless047copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless042copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless042copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless041copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless041copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless035copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless035copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless031copy1.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless031copy1.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_D70Homeless048copy.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/D70Homeless048copy.jpg)

[hamiltonpl]

Those are some of the saddest pictures I have ever seen.

You're a brave fella for taking them.

[Justin Terveen]

...

[BigD5349]

Ninja, thanks for posting those. It's a sobering reminder. Also shows just how much DT stands to gain by turning this property around.

[Texan#1]

goodness that's a lot of homeless people! i rarely see them the few times I go visit downtown it seems.. must be the timing or maybe I'm just not looking.

[Justin Terveen]

...

[BigD5349]

They ripped another gash in the faux facade. Now you can see one of the original window arches peeking out! Pretty cool.

[crescentboi]

I really like that color of brick. Seems pretty unique for downtown...certainly for that area. I've never like how the skyline on the south of downtown is so monotonous when it comes to color. All of it seems to be beige, tan, khaki, ivory, bone, cream... This would create a nice pop there.

[Justin Terveen]

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_RebelScott041copy.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/RebelScott041copy.jpg) http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/th_RebelScott040copy.jpg (http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g288/protestmarch/RebelScott040copy.jpg)

[dfwcre8tive]

Dallas may fund downtown apartments
Board supports grants of $20 million for two projects
10:57 PM CDT on Thursday, June 22, 2006
By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News

Downtown Dallas' housing boom continues creeping southward, with City Hall's preliminary grant of nearly $20 million in tax incentives to a large apartment project and a hotel and apartment development along Young Street.

"This is going to have a very, very positive impact on this part of downtown. You're going to see a lot more development here," said Craig Melde, principal of architecture firm Architexas, which is consulting with developers of the 321-unit apartment project on the corner of Ervay and Young streets. Plans for it also call for 45,000 square feet of retail.

Dallas' City Council-appointed Downtown Connection Tax Increment Financing District board on Thursday formally recommended $15 million in TIF funds for the project, which Bisno Development Co. of Los Angeles is overseeing. The TIF board last month had preliminarily approved funds for the project at 500 S. Ervay St., across from City Hall.

The board also recommended granting $4.3 million in TIF funds to developers of a 116-unit hotel, 48-loft apartment project within the long-vacant Santa Fe IV building on Young Street between Field and Griffin streets.

The building sits a block from the Dallas Convention Center and two blocks from Dallas City Hall. Plans call for adding two stories to it, in line with original plans from the 1920s that never materialized. It's also slated to include a restaurant and bar.

"We really feel the hotel market is improving, and we feel we'll fill a niche," developer Ted Hamilton said of the project, which he estimated will cost $30 million. W Hotel operator Starwood is pegged to run the hotel, although it could be run as an independent property if those plans fall through, Mr. Hamilton said.

The full council must approve both deals.

If it does, Bisno associate Kevin Hanson says, redevelopment of his 96-year-old structure could begin within months, with residential move-ins expected sometime in 2008.

Mr. Hamilton says he hopes to begin work on the Santa Fe IV building in mid-2007, with completion scheduled for late 2008.

Hamilton Properties is one of downtown's busiest loft apartment developers, having converted the Davis Building and Dallas Power & Light buildings.

The company is now redeveloping the former Fidelity Union Towers into about 500 apartments.

E-mail dlevinthal@dallasnews.com

http://dismuke.net/ftworthforum/postcards/butlerbros.jpg

[FoUTASportscaster]

I think this is exciting news, and the Santa Fe IV building too! This will bring 369 units, 116 hotel rooms and greater than 50,000 sq ft of retail. Good times.

[Jack Flack]

I am not sure exactly what is going on, but there has been increased activity with this building over the past few weeks. Last week I noticed dust pouring out of some of the windows and trucks hauling off debris. Today I noticed a scaffolding on the front of the building with workers busily doing something.

[Justin Terveen]

outstanding

[gc]

Excellent. Sounds like something is definitely moving forward.

[clipper]

The place is still full of street people. they put up some fences but they were pulled down. Will be hard to keep them out since that area is awash with homeless.

[BigD5349]

From yesterday, as Jack Flack mentioned, something's going on.

The last news story said that the full council must approve this deal before it moves forward. Have they done so? Otherwise, it's hard to imagine that demolition work would have started.

I can't wait for them to peel that crummy facade off!

[clipper]

I think they took that exterior scafolding down.

[Tnekster]

How many more buildings are there downtown that look like crappy ugly 70's buildings that are really just covered up jewels waiting for someone to peel off the old skin?

[sogod]

I dont know, but its kind of cool to not know and then be suprised.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Basically, take an ugly building built before 1950. Those are the ones that have been "modernized."

[Justin Terveen]

How many more buildings are there downtown that look like crappy ugly 70's buildings that are really just covered up jewels waiting for someone to peel off the old skin?

the praetorian sticks out for sure.. in my mind anyway..

[FoUTASportscaster]

Yeah, that's the first that came to mind for me.

The building demolished by the Employer's Insurance building was like that. John T Roberts might have more info on this topic.

[John T Roberts]

There are several more. The Linz Jewelers Building discussed in another thread is one. Another, is the little building at the southeast corner of Stone Street and Elm. The little building diagonally next door to the Katy Building is another. There is some evidence that the building to the west of the Davis Building is a facade redo and a partial demolition along Field Street when it was realigned. Several of the buildings east of the Kirby have newer facades on them. The base of the DP&L Annex/Texaco/Continental Supply is a remodeled historic building with a newer facade and floors added on top twice. Maybe when we do our "urban excursion" on Saturday, I can point out how you can sometimes tell. Several of the downtown buildings have later additions placed on top that was designed into the buildings. Yet, I know of one recently demolished structure that was designed for more floors that never happened (Mercantile Dallas Annex).

[FoUTASportscaster]

Thank you sir. I had a feeling you'd have at least a few answers.

[Tnekster]

^Thanks for the response. I hope we get more progress on restoring what is left.

[John T Roberts]

Both of you are welcome. It's really interesting to analyze historic buildings in a city. A look at their alley side is always a good place to start. Because these facades were not exposed to city streets, most of the changes were not covered up in a way that could disguise the renovations.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Re: Modernization of facades

Another, is the little building at the southeast corner of Stone Street and Elm.

They've peeled off some of the new facade.
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/3600/img2191gu0.jpg (http://imageshack.us)