Urban Creek "Daylighting"

[jsoto3]

Much discussion has occurred (scattered throughout the forum) on the desire to "daylight" Mill Creek through East Dallas and the Cedars. Now here is a thread dedicated to the discussion of creek daylighting in general and of local creeks in particular.

Partial daylighting of Mill Creek is under official consideration:
http://www.dallascityhall.com/dallas/eng/committee_briefings/briefings/20050214_hehs_mill_creek.pdf

General Reference Resources:
http://www.rmi.org/images/other/Water/W00-32_Daylighting.pdf
http://www.forester.net/sw_0111_daylighting.html

Example of perhaps the most extensive & inspiring urban creek "daylighting" to date:
Seoul: Cheonggyecheon Expressway Demolition / River Restoration (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=4407)

[jsoto3]

Historic MURPHY & BOLANZ maps (http://dallaslibrary.org/CTX/murphyandbolanz/home.html) with Mill Creek:
http://search.freefind.com/find.html?id=76400997&pid=r&mode=ALL&n=0&query=mill+creek

You will need to download/install the DjVu Browser Plug-in to view the maps:
http://www.lizardtech.com/download/dl_options.php?page=viewers

[jsoto3]

The Town Branch of Mill Creek is shown in the foreground of the Herman Brosius Bird's Eye View of Dallas (1872):
http://www.birdseyeviews.org/zoom.php?city=Dallas&year=1872&extra_info=

[jsoto3]

Hi-res historic map with Mill Creek:
top half: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~jwheat/mapdal93top.html
bottom half: http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~jwheat/mapdal93bot.html

I found the link to this map from a short discussion on the Dallas History Forum:
http://www.dallashistory.org/cgi-bin/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=7755

An interesting and sobering excerpt from that discussion:
http://www.dallashistory.org/cgi-bin/webbbs_config.pl?noframes;read=7767

Lee, while we are remembering Mill Creek, Turtle Creek and the rest of the watershed on the Dallas side of the levee, let us also remember that all of the rain water still has to be pumped over that levee into the Trinity diversion channel.

In 1948, during one of those "frog-stranglers" a couple of the old poorly maintained small pump stations stopped operating. In a few hours, the water was near the roof of the Sportatorium and flowing over the levee from the wrong side.

Today the levee is higher & stonger; the pumps are bigger, more numerous, & better maintained; and the Corps of Engineer dams upstream do a much better job of flood control; but, given the right set of circumstances. again in a few hours water could be 20+ feet deep on Industrial Blvd.

In a superflood, if the Lewisville Dam were to fail suddenly, the water would be 75+ feet deep on Industrial Blvd.

[dfwcre8tive]

The Town Branch of Mill Creek is shown in the foreground of the Herman Brosius Bird's Eye View of Dallas (1872):
http://www.birdseyeviews.org/zoom.php?city=Dallas&year=1872&extra_info=

That's a really cool map. Thanks for posting.

[Columbus Civil]

Cool stuff, jsoto.

[Insidetheloop]

One of the neat things about that map is that it shows the creek that used to run through Downtown. When the basement and 6 story deep parking garage was built for One Main Place the retaining walls collapsed because of the long forgotten artesian spring that's on the property. The creek on the map starts at the spring where OMP now sits. I believe John Neely Bryan picked this area for his home since he had access to the fresh spring water from the creek(even back then the Trinity was unfit to drink).

When the recent rains flooded Deep Ellum, Baylor, Ross Ave and Henderson, it appears as though the flooding followed the old path of Mill Creek. The Baylor ER stands on the site of an old lake called Moon Lake so it's no surprise that it came close to flooding.

On Channel 8 they featured a story on some newish looking townhomes that flooded and the residents wondered where the water came from since they were no where near a creek. Their townhomes here built on top of Mill Creek. Same with the guy who's wholesale sign business was flooded out.

There was a brewery and an icehouse that used the creek a long time ago. Prohibition drove the brewery and the icehouse out of business. As a result of prohibition and the closure of the beer related businesses that used the creek for water, it was decided to cover over Mill Creek since it was no longer needed. Weird how things work out like that.

[jsoto3]

On Channel 8 they featured a story on some newish looking townhomes that flooded and the residents wondered where the water came from since they were no where near a creek. Their townhomes here built on top of Mill Creek. Same with the guy who's wholesale sign business was flooded out.
Was it these?:
http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=4396
(start at post #11 for flooding discussion which prompted this thread)

[Lakewooder]

I've stated this before, but just for reiteration:

Turtle Creek and Mill Creek were to be developed and beautified under the Kessler plan of the early 1900s. (Kessler was a famous urban planner originally from Frankfurt, Germany). Obviously, only the Turtle Creek beautification was done...

[Insidetheloop]

Was it these?:
http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=4396
(start at post #11 for flooding discussion which prompted this thread)

Yes! Those are the townhomes I saw on the news. I searched the Belo websites earlier today to try and find an address but came up empty handed. I think it takes a few days for them to establish hard links via their search.

Anyways you are right on the money about those townhomes being built on top of Mill Creek. If you check out the Dallas Flooding thread I posted a couple of pics from the DMN website that show extensive flooding in Preston Hollow and University Park from the boxed, channelized and tunneled northern sections of Turtle Creek that flows north of Northwest Highway.

Anyone else know of any other creeks that are hidden under Dallas streets? Only other one I can think of is Bachman Creek is partially tunneled as it travels under Douglas, Northwest Highway and the Tollroad.

Interesting thread.

[Insidetheloop]

I've stated this before, but just for reiteration:

Turtle Creek and Mill Creek were to be developed and beautified under the Kessler plan of the early 1900s. (Kessler was a famous urban planner originally from Frankfurt, Germany). Obviously, only the Turtle Creek beautification was done...

Here is a presentation from just last year on the Mill Creek flooding problem:

http://www.dallascityhall.com/committee_briefings/briefings/20050124_hehs_MillCreek.pdf

It's bulletpoints are exactly what happened last Sunday. The same flood that they mentioned in 1995 was a mimic of Sunday.

On a side note in May of 1995 during the last "100 year flood" in the Mill Creek area SMU flooded. Same thing happened this Sunday. I have not heard about it on the TV news but over 20 buildings on campus flooded including the newer buildings on campus. Some sustained heavy damage on the lower and basement floors. The new Dedman Center attached to Moody Coliseum had over 9000 gallons of water pumped from the lower floor. That building is literally 5 months old.

Strange that the Hilltop can flood too!

[Lakewooder]

Most of the alternatives in the engineering study were $100 million or more -- with perhaps TXDOT picking up part of the cost since Mill Creek affects I-30. Perhaps with the new DART line going over it, the Pegasus Project and rebuild of I-30, some money can be found from various agencies, including federal help since it is eventually pumped over the levees into the Trinity.

This should be on the next $1.5 billion bond program. This is a high cost, to be sure, but imagine the return on the investment of having another Turtle Creek passing almost exactly through the worst areas of East Dallas, Deep Ellum and the Cedars.

Here is the chance to 'do it right' before those areas are haphazardly filled in with Uptown development spillover.

[tamtagon]

This should be on the next $1.5 billion bond program. This is a high cost, to be sure, but imagine the return on the investment of having another Turtle Creek passing almost exactly through the worst areas of East Dallas, Deep Ellum and the Cedars.

Word up to your mother

[RobertB]

For reference, here is the city's recommended proposal (from the .pdf in the first post)

Basin Segments
•Upper Basin–‘M’Streets area north of Henderson
•Upper Middle Basin–Henderson to Exall Park
•Lower Middle Basin–Exall Park to Interstate 30
•Lower Basin–Interstate 30 to Trinity River

Combined Alternative 4
•Upper: Storm sewer relief systems
•Upper Middle: Creek restoration
•Lower Middle, Lower: Pressure sewer, storm sewer relief systems
•Estimated Cost: $108.1M
•Est. Cost w/needed local drainage: $128.6M

As noted by Lakewooder, the city's selection of Alternative 4 -- the most expensive of the four alternatives -- is dependent on TxDOT footing half of the cost of the "pressure sewer" in the Lower segment, since the I-30 canyon is directly affected by Mill Creek flooding. That's a bill of over $22 million from the city to TxDOT. If TxDOT doesn't come through with either the cash or an alternative (they can be a creative bunch of engineers!), the report suggests the city might instead go with the cheapest alternative:

Combined Alternative 1
•Upper: Storm sewer relief systems
•Upper Middle: Creek restoration, detention
•Lower Middle: Creek restoration, storm sewer relief systems
•Lower: Storm sewer relief systems
•Estimated Cost: $89.2M
•Est. Cost w/needed local drainage: $109.7M

The biggest difference seems to be that the Lower Middle section -- the part that could flood I-30 -- doesn't get as robust a solution. On the other hand, a "pressure sewer" has more moving parts (see this link (http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/waterquality/448-405/448-405.html#L3)), including pumps and on-call operators, where a restored creek just needs regular ditch-digging maintenance.

My biggest problem: I'm dying for a map!

[Insidetheloop]

This is an old map prior to the closure of the creek. As you can see, the old creek route was the hardest hit area. Knox-Henderson, Deep Ellum, Old City Park, the I-30 Canyon. Mill Creek used to enter the Trinity back behind the new City Hall but now it takes a more direct route near the Sportatorium.

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/8470/1924dtown5012fz.gif

Here is a picture of the current storm sewer under construction in 1950.

http://img400.imageshack.us/img400/1783/millcreek5qe.jpg

[jsoto3]

Anyone else know of any other creeks that are hidden under Dallas streets? Only other one I can think of is Bachman Creek is partially tunneled as it travels under Douglas, Northwest Highway and the Tollroad.
I've been wondering the same thing and spent many hours last evening searching aerial photos for traces of buried creeks. I don't know the name of the waterway (it's not labelled on any historic maps I've seen), but there is one that runs between Bachman Creek and the "Cedar Branch" of the Trinity from the Lemmon/Inwood intersection, parelleling Inwood toward UTSW, and joins the Old Trinity meander across I-35 near the Inwood/Industrial intersection. It is partially buried underneath Harry Hines, Record Crossing, and Medical Center Dr.
Aerial photo:
http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=32.816974~-96.845494&style=h&lvl=17&scene=4159471

[Insidetheloop]

^If you think about it for a minute and look at the surrounding streets and their names it's easy to figure out. Look upstream behind Park Cities Ford.

The name of the creek is Cedar Branch. Named after Cedar Springs which still flows from behind the car dealership.

The other creek north of Cedar Branch and south of Bachman Branch is called Knight's Branch. It starts near the south end of the 31L runway at Love Field.

Not sure if either of these creeks are named on maps anymore or not.

[jsoto3]

Not exactly on topic, but Highland Park's town hall/library is built over Turtle Creek:
http://shrinkster.com/db1

[Insidetheloop]

Same with University Park.

[jsoto3]

Really? It looks likes it is just beside it:
http://shrinkster.com/db2
It's good to see they didn't entirely bridge over it like Highland Park did.

[RobertB]

I wanna go see! Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease!!!!

During rains, a backup awaits below surface
Vault keeps Central Expressway from turning into waterway in storms
07:43 AM CST on Friday, March 24, 2006
By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News

Next time you visit Uptown, heed the behemoth below.

Think Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or Jules Verne's Journey to the Center of the Earth. Dallas' creepily named Cole Park Detention Vault, with its network of subterranean chambers, prevented Central Expressway from becoming Central River during last weekend's deluge.

"You would have had cars just floating down the freeway had it not been for this," said Ron Shindoll, Dallas' flood control division manager, as he slogged through thick, brownish goo lining the bottom of the vault.

Completed in 1993, the vault's 13 chambers, each of which rises five stories tall and runs the length of more than two football fields, are designed to fill with water during extreme rainfall. Only three times have storms overburdened Uptown's standard drainage system and forced the vault's use: in 1995, 2004 and last weekend.

And the weekend rains, which neared a foot in some neighborhoods and drowned an SMU student, were the worst, Mr. Shindoll said. Water stains that extend seven-eighths of the way up the chambers' concrete walls testify to that.

So does the sludge-covered garbage, left behind now that the more than 50 million gallons of storm water inside the vault only days ago have drained out.

Illuminated with flashlights and bare light bulbs, the vault is a mucky museum of hub caps, plastic cups and enough beer cans – who knew anyone still drank Schlitz? – to shame a fraternity house.

But even as underground Uptown was awash in wet, rushing chaos, someone strolling above never would have known.

"Even to residents of the area, it's really unknown," Mr. Shindoll said of the vault. "And almost 100 percent of the people who come to this park have no idea."

A nondescript city Public Works and Transportation Department building next to Cole Park's tennis courts is the only ground-level indication of what's below.

Inside, a metal railing surrounds what resembles a well but is much wider and 100 feet deep. A slow, jarring trip on a cagelike cog elevator is the only way down, save for an even less desirable option – the emergency ladder.

At the bottom, the air is moist and still, its temperature around 60 degrees, which feels balmy on an otherwise uncharacteristically cold day. Nothing but squishing boots produce sound.

Scant, incandescent light makes the shadowy chambers resemble cathedrals, their tapered ceilings arching dozens of feet overhead, even if their ambiance is two parts hellish to one part heavenly. At two chambers' ends are massive inlets where sewers relentlessly gushed water at the week's outset.

There's nothing else in Dallas like this facility, Mr. Shindoll says, and to his knowledge, there's nothing quite like it anywhere nearby.

That's not necessarily surprising, as building such a vault isn't cheap – Dallas spent an inflation-unadjusted $27.1 million to complete this one. And although the city only seems to need it once every four years on average, the alternative is flooding even worse than what the city experienced last weekend.

"It worked," Mr. Shindoll said, "exactly as it was supposed to."

The Cole Park Detention Vault

•The Texas Department of Transportation and Dallas funded construction of the vault and the pipelines that drain into it. Construction began in 1990 and was completed in 1993.

•Dallas-based engineering firm Halff Associates used mine-excavation equipment to cut through the Austin chalk limestone beneath Cole Park.

•The vault contains 13 chambers, each 842 feet long, 24 feet wide and 40 feet tall. About 1,100 feet of tunnels link the chambers.

•The chamber walls are supported by steel mesh, bolts and more than 3 inches of reinforced concrete.

•While gravity drains some of the water that spills into the vault, a pump station in Cole Park, which processes up to 100,000 gallons per minute, handles the rest.

•Up to 71 million gallons of water may be stored inside the vault.

SOURCES: City of Dallas, Halff Associates Inc.
Online at: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-reservoir_24met.ART0.North.Edition2.2604eb5.html

Pictures (hosted at the DMN site, so they may or may not appear -- let me know)
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/03-24-2006.nmc_24reservoira.G6V1RH4FU.1.jpg
One of the 13 chambers of the Cole Park Detention Vault underneath Uptown is illuminated by WFAA photographer Tom Loveless during a tour.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/03-06/0324reservoirmap.jpg

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/03-24-2006.nmc_24resercoirc.G6V1RH4G2.1.jpg
Dallas flood control manager Ron Shindoll visits one of 13 chambers beneath Uptown at the Cole Park Detention Vault, which drained out more than 50 million gallons of storm water from last weekend's deluge. 'It worked exactly as it was supposed to,' he said.

[KBilly]

Go here (http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=56084&catId=104) and scroll the left hand frame for additional clips to 'Underground at Cole Park after flooding.'

It was on the news last night. Very cool!

[RobertB]

Go here (http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=56084&catId=104) and scroll the left hand frame for additional clips to 'Underground at Cole Park after flooding.'

It was on the news last night. Very cool!
oooooooohhhh! aaaahhhhhhhhhh!

I love the shot that pans from the reporter to the bottomless pit below him -- showing that he's standing on a vertigo-inducing steel grating dangling over the abyss. Thanks for the link!

[RobertB]

The Observer's Dave Schutze, by coincidence, lives near Mill Creek. But he didn't know it until recently. He details the experience in an article this week: Devil Creek - For decades we buried our streams beneath concrete. Now they're baaaack. (http://www.dallasobserver.com/issues/2006-03-30/news/schutze_full.html)

Snippets:

I walked back downhill, and by the time I got to the intersection above the holding tank, water was surging across in waves. I had to turn toward the current and crab-walk sideways to avoid getting knocked over and sent to Davy Jones' locker on my butt. It even occurred to me what an ignominious fate it was going to be: "Last seen in a sitting position scooting backward on Glendale toward the raging maw of a storm sewer."

But I reached dry ground. A few minutes later the water surged even higher, crashing around trees in a high white-water foam. A guy came driving up our street toward the intersection in a small sedan, plowing through the surf like a tugboat.

I started making the international chimpanzee jumping-jack signal for stop--waving my arms in an X and jumping up and down wildly. He slowed, smiled at me indulgently, then drove out into the intersection.

The rear end of his car lifted up and the front end nosed deeper. He began whipping the wheel furiously and gunning the engine. Then the front end lifted up too. The car pirouetted nicely. And he floated off into the spray like a kid on the log ride at the State Fair.

[...]

The [Mill Creek Master Drainage Plan] study reported that the city of Dallas began burying the creeks through East Dallas in the 1930s, diverting them into storm sewers. The run-off from these creeks and branches started at a high point on the M Streets a few miles from my house, coursed across the Swiss Avenue area down through the neighborhood around Baylor hospital and finally out across what is now the southwest corner of downtown into the Trinity River.

The old conduits and tanks intended to carry the system have been poorly maintained over the years. In certain areas, especially at Old City Park, around Baylor hospital and in Deep Ellum, flooding can be sudden and severe when the system is overwhelmed. We have written before about a portion of this problem ("Up the Crick," by Paul Kix, June 24, 2004): Kix told the story of the "river of poop" flowing under buildings in Deep Ellum, where the city's decrepit sanitary sewer system has ruptured into the conduits intended to carry Mill Creek.

But it never occurred to me that any of this could impinge on my property, which I believed to be high and dry, far from any water. A day of scrounging on the Internet, however, and the blessed intercession of Google, my new religion, brought me to a huge collection of old city maps, the Murphy and Bolanz block and addition books put up by the Dallas Public Library at http://dallaslibrary.org/CTX/murphyandbolanz . These maps, hand-drawn between 1880 and 1920, are very early renderings of the city's streets and blocks.

[...]

Days later I talked about it with city council member Angela Hunt--the representative for my area and the only person on the city council with whom I have ever spoken who seems to understand flood control. She said the measures proposed in the engineering study to correct the drainage of Mill Creek would cost $130 million--10 percent of the entire bond issue now under consideration.

"I don't see that happening," she said.

Neither do I. But something will happen. We are foolish ants who think we have made the river disappear beneath our mound.

Oh yes, and I almost forgot: those hundreds of millions of dollars we're going to pour into decorative suspension bridges as part of our "flood control" program downtown? Think of me doing the chimpanzee jumping-jacks thing right now.

[jsoto3]

Not exactly on topic, but Highland Park's town hall/library is built over Turtle Creek:
http://shrinkster.com/db1

Same with University Park.

Really? It looks likes it is just beside it:
http://shrinkster.com/db2
It's good to see they didn't entirely bridge over it like Highland Park did.


D'oh! University Park is now going to completely cover Turtle Creek with the expansion of its City Hall & Fire Department:
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=60434&catId=348

[dips]

Hello

I need some information on daylighting of creeks in dallas. I am looking for the history of those creeks in dallas.
I have collected all the historic maps but cudnt get any book or article on it.
Also http://www.dallascityhall.com/dallas/eng/committee_briefings/briefings/20050124_hehs_MillCreek.pdf link is not working.

ref:
Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum > /// Transportation + Infrastructure > Parks + Misc. Infrastructure
Urban Creek "Daylighting"

Thanxk
dips

[Bferris]

Hello

I need some information on daylighting of creeks in dallas. I am looking for the history of those creeks in dallas.
I have collected all the historic maps but cudnt get any book or article on it.
Also http://www.dallascityhall.com/dalla..._mill_creek.pdf link is not working.

ref:
Dallas Fort Worth Urban Forum > /// Transportation + Infrastructure > Parks + Misc. Infrastructure
Urban Creek "Daylighting"

Thanxk
dips

Do you have access to the Dallas Morning News Archives? A Dallas Public Library card is all you need. There is a pile of information available.

What exactly did you want to know?

[CTroyMathis]

dips, here's the updated location for that link: http://www.dallascityhall.com/committee_briefings/briefings/20050124_hehs_MillCreek.pdf

[RobertB]

Thanks to a Dallas-area urban explorer, I got to see part of Dallas history buried under the Reunion Arena parking lot, or possibly the Convention Center -- it's kinda hard to tell. The stonework in this pic was clearly intended to be seen, not buried. It would be interesting to know what it looked like before it was hidden under 20+ feet of fill and covered with a parking lot.

[shaun3000]

Any more pictures or perhaps a link? I'd love to see more urban exploration from Dallas. I've seen sites from other cities but never my home town.

[gc]

^ Yeah. If you guys have more pics, please share.

[Bferris]

That tunnel was probably either an old storm drain outlet or sewer line. Before the river was channelized and moved the old river bed ran fairly close to what is now Reunion Arena. The picture shown above is probably where the storm/sewer line met the river. Back in the old days sewage was not treated, it was dumped directly into the river.

[RobertB]

Well, http://www.uer.ca/ is where I hang out, and you'll also see forum member Barry Kooda 'round there. I don't see this particular tunnel in the location database, so I guess it hasn't been deemed particularly picturesque -- "drainers" are a subset of the larger Urban Exploration population -- but I think it's great. Hopefully, I'll have a camera of my own the next time I go.

[dips]

Anybody knows about any daylighting creek work done in dallas or in Texas?????????I am looking for some examples in Tx.

[BryanSmyth]

Anybody knows about any daylighting creek work done in dallas or in Texas?????????I am looking for some examples in Tx.

I dont' know exactly what you're looking for, but Urban Creek Restoration might get better results than creek daylighting in your searches.

There's some interesting history about the San Antonio River and creation of the RiverWalk. Including a bypass channel, bypass tunnel, and straightening of the river channel downstream of the city. Citizens of San Antonio were so outraged when the idea leaked of covering the river back in the 1920's, that they marched on City Hall. No such luck from the people of East Dallas.

Austin Restoration Projects (http://www.ci.austin.tx.us/acwp/creeks.htm)

Houston might be the only city stupid enough (...besides Dallas...) to cover an entire creek, so I would concentrate your efforts there. Bayou Preservation (http://www.bayoupreservation.org/pages/welcome.htm)

Good Luck!

[RobertB]

Citizens of San Antonio were so outraged when the idea leaked of covering the river back in the 1920's, that they marched on City Hall. No such luck from the people of East Dallas.
That makes sense, though. The citizens of Dallas didn't see the river as a friend, but as a hated enemy -- one that was finally forced into submission by the Trinity River levee system, built in the '20s. With waterways being seen as the adversary and with human technology proving superior to all forces of nature, burying the river's tributaries would have been an utterly logical course of action.

If they'd had the technology, they probably would have put a toll road in the river, too -- the ultimate insult, thumbing Man's nose at Mother Nature's fury. Thank goodness nobody would do such a thing now. Oh, wait... :2doh:

[jsoto3]

I just found this map of the 100-year Stormwater Hazard Areas related to Mill Creek and Peaks Creek:
http://www.dallascityhall.com/pdf/Building/MillCreekPeaksBranch.pdf

[Lakewooder]

Great find -jsoto! Look at this map and imagine if the middle portions of Mill Creek had been beautified like Turtle Creek was - as the Kessler Plan proposed. Instead it was covered and that had been the worst part of East Dallas for 70 years. It probably hastened the nearly complete destruction of Millionaire's Row on Ross.

I think segments still could be salvaged and daylighted and it would be just as good an investment as The Trinity Park. For instance, see where it goes through Deep Ellum. Also the Peak's branch could be opened on the new East Dallas Veloway / Tenison Trail over to the Fair Park main gate. That property is very mixed with vacant lots and cheap right now (before DART opens).

Also, seeing this map, Robert's idea of re-routing the mixmaster south and filling the current canyon with Mill Creek makes perfect sense. Mill Creek empties into the Trinity - which could expand the park to the whole south side of Downtown and link it to Old City Park and the Cedars/Lamar.

[BryanSmyth]

Is Austin really thinking of burying an urban creek? Maybe so (http://austinist.com/2006/06/21/plans_for_secret_tunnel_under_downtown_revealed.ph p).

[johnmabes]

If you are referring to Waller Creek in Austin, they are certainly not burying it. They are reclaiming the flood plain surrounding it and planning to develop an Austin version of the Riverwalk. There will be buried infrastructure to account for flood control.

[BryanSmyth]

So...Austin plans to bury the "flood plain part" only -- now that's funky. In Dallas, we just use the Baylor Hospital Emergengy Room, Deep Ellum, and I-30 as the Mill Creek flood plain.

If Mill Creek were ever daylighted, I wonder if they would daylight the entire creek or make it decorational only.

[Lakewooder]

Something I've been waiting to see for a long time:

http://www.dallasobserver.com/2008-06-19/news/sexy-town?src=newsletter

[mjblazin]

I always thought the key was parks, parks, and more parks. But I was not aware of the creeks in place. It's much better direction than "Taller, more retail, taller, more retail." Ever notice how Turtle Creek does not have any retail?

BTW note the comment from Mr. Schutze: "The smartest thing a neighborhood can do is make the cars go around." Gee, about what does that remind you?

[TheMapman]

Sounds like Schutze's ideal place would be Highland Park with a wall around it.

[jsoto3]

http://www.dallascityhall.com/council_briefings/Briefings0808/MillCreekPeaksBranch_08062008.pdf

^^ A City Council briefing presentation regarding a proposed plan to relieve flooding in the Mill Creek and Peaks Branch watersheds via a deep-bore tunnel to discharge at White Rock Creek south of I-30 (see page 20 of 32 for map). Seems like a good idea to me. It could make it more practical to daylight portions of the creeks due to the resultant smaller flow rates in the existing storm sewers.

[Hannibal Lecter]

My understanding is that the drainage tunnel(s) are in lieu of daylighting. The tunnel is designed to resolve the flooding, so there will be no need to daylight the creek.

Sorry, Lakewooder, you don't get to tear my house down yet. :-)

[jsoto3]

I understand that the proposed tunnel is intended to be in lieu of daylighting as a solution to the flooding problem, but that doesn't preclude daylighting as an option for "restoring" portions of these natural water features as civic open space amenities. I'm not a civil engineer or hydrologist, but my supposition is that the proposed tunnel makes this a greater possibility beacuse it will have a greater capacity to convey flood waters than would a partially-daylighted creek as part of a hybrid drainage system (some daylighting, some pressure sewer/culvert). The concept is the same as the Trinity River being diverted to the new channel between the levees years ago, thus allowing the original channel to be left exposed (though still problematic) because it is not being relied upon to convey all of the flood waters from upstream, just from a smaller area within Dallas.

[Hannibal Lecter]

I just don't see the city buying up $50M+ in property, plus many millions more in construction costs, just for a creek. It would have cost them less to daylight the creek than to build the drainage tunnel, but they went with the tunnel anyway. That shows how interested the city is in the creek concept.

(Please don't construe any of this as being opposed to the concept. I think it's an interesting idea. It's just not going to happen).

[Lakewooder]

One of the news stations had a report on this last night, complete with a map that showed the underground pipe in between the two creeks in Old East Dallas -- showed Angela talking -- didn't catch the whole thing or even which channel -- anyone see it?

[jsoto3]

WFAA Report:
http://www.wfaa.com/video/wfaageneral-index.html?nvid=270641&shu=1

That map is on page 20 of the PDF I linked above.