When will downtown Dallas build a new skyscraper?

[gtaylor1]

Economics are difficult to predict, but, when do you think there would be a chance for a significant tall high rise to be built downtown? Note: Keep in mind a condominium/residential possibility.

[mdunlap1]

Unfortunately, the lease rate downtown is still very low (60-70%). Until that changes we won't see another. Hopefully though, the Victory development, will draw a lot of commercial eyes back to the downtown and immediately uptown areas.

[JohnathanP]

I have recently become disturbed by the market, and what it has done to even the most solid of proposals. I emailed Troy, and he returned that even though website doesn't show it yet, the Victory project and the International 6(?) or 5(?) (whichever) are both delayed. Not 'shelved', or on 'indefinite hold', just delayed due to market and initial tenant hesitations.

I voted for a later number because, even though I'd think it could be sooner, I'm just not all too happy with the progress Dallas's downtown made during the biggest boom period in recent memory. Now, we're heading through moderate market days. Downtown made phenomenal strides, and will still pull some things out. I just think there's many critical things, especially that disgustingly huge chunk of obsolete and vacant space, that haven't been taken care of yet.

I'm just rambling now, and could keep rambling. I'm actually an optimistic person when it comes to vibrant Dallas, just painfully realistic more often.

[CTroyMathis]

The Dallas Business Journal just made, probably, one of it's most skeptical opinion articles on the progress of downtown Dallas. It hides nothing, but then again, it reverts back to a subjective way of looking at vacant space in downtown. Overall, it can hopefully provide a wake-up call to the 'CDA - central dallas assoc.' and 'DID- downtown improvement district.' Their efforts are commendable, but, still need years of work. Not to mention, civic involvement and the city hall.

By the way, Johnathan, the development as a whole isn't exactly the part on hold. The 'tower' was. And, now, it is going to be in a completely different location and form. Likely to be a low-rise.

[applecore24]

Why does everyone seem to be pulling their stuff? Making the office tower seems to me to be only a step further in what happened to Reunion happen at Victory... Oh well.

About International 5 - I really, really hope they leave it alone. And build it as planned, if not larger. I love the International Centre, And a building of this size could really bring it some more attention.

Once the renevations on the buildings downtown begin, do you think these projects will get back on track again? I sure hope so...

[Axes]

Does anyone have some information on the proposal? I had not heard of it. Thanks.

[GarrettCarey]

BTW, Houston is building a 30 something story tower in the CBD. Where is ours?

[metrosteve]

The three strongest possibilities that I know of are of course the Victory Projects (30+ stories in a twin-towered configuration), the Brooks Partners Arts District Tower (at least 30 stories adjacent to the Nasher Sculpture Garden) and finally the Craig Hall mixed-use development on the site of the 80's Lone Star Tower next to the Cathedral on Flora across from the Meyerson fronting on Ross.

[GarrettCarey]

metrosteve
Is there anything posted about the development of these projects? I know about the Victory Towers, but what about the others....is there any information?

I bet the new WTC site will be completely rebuilt before "Big D" decides to get another skyscaper!

....of course the demand here seems to be going northbound as evidenced by the other thread "Suburban Competiton"

man...i am bitter!

[bloodandpopcorn]

I think to be a real urban city, we need to focus less on building two or three 30-story towers and instead build 5-15 story buildings over the current empty parking lots. We need to make it feel dense from the street level, make alot of street level retail, and make it look good enoguh that people will want to be downtown, not in the suburbs. Then we can tear a couple of them down to build some 40 or 50 story towers. That's my logic...

But yeh, I would love to see some 30-story towers and even taller added to the CBD, I just think it would be better in the long run for developers to build up all the "empty" land first, then go tall.

[metrosteve]

Don't be bitter--its gonna get better. One of the buildings, the Arts District Tower (it's 25--not 30 stories) can be found at www.brookpartners.com site. I am still checking to find the story on the Craig Hall project and will post that if I can find it for you.

[metrosteve]

Absolutely need those 2-15 story structures--that's what builds up a streetscape and urban feeling quicker than anything. I love big buildings but the smaller ones usually have so much more character and interest for me. In many cities, builders are going in on the small lots and building residential or mixed-use structures that look great and have a wonderful human scale. When you look at the old photos of downtown here even up into the 1950's the sidewalks were jammed with pedestrians and for as far as you could see down a block was a solid line of buildings large and small--much more intimate.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Speaking of these kind of developments, is there any news on that West End project? where they are making a West Village sort of development, except I think it was going to be a couple of stories taller? I can't wait for that to happen, it will bring a new identity to the West End, I think!

[psukhudallasmetropolis]

Dallas has the advantage of large population gains each year due to many people moving down from the northeast. Many of these people (from cities like Boston, New York or Philly) will first look at downtown and the inner city for residence. They are usually shocked by the low prices. I think the increase in population will also increase the demand for amenities in downtown.

www.dfwinfo.com/ris/population/top10.gif (http://www.dfwinfo.com/ris/population/top10.gif)

www.dfwinfo.com/ris/popul...index.html (http://www.dfwinfo.com/ris/population/index.html)

[bloodandpopcorn]

wow, those population estimates are rather impressive. Dallas as second in population growth? That's a nice change, when it seems that everyone around me is leaving for the suburbs. Hoepfully all of these new downtown/uptown lofts and apartment projects will bring even more in.

Why, though, are people moving here from the northeast? As much as I like Dallas, I would much prefer to live in Boston or NYC if I could. Is it just business, or is there some 'magical' appearance that Dallas gives to those outside of it?

[Knight22]

I just wanted to make the comment that some of the population projections that are listed at the sights above are based on 1995 figures. For example at one of those sights it says that Dallas's population will be around 1.26 million by 2025. Well Dallas already as 1.2 million in 2002 so this number is way off. I think Dallas by 2025 will have at least 1.4 million and possibly as much as 1.55 million.

[paulsukhudallasmetropolis]

>>> Why, though, are people moving here from the northeast? As much as I like Dallas, I would much prefer to live in Boston or NYC if I could. Is it just business, or is there some 'magical' appearance that Dallas gives to those outside of it?>>>

Phoenix, Atlanta and Houston are also benefiting from this. The housing is much cheaper and newer down here. Also, the cost of housing/wage ratio is excellent down here.

I had a two bedroom apt in Manhattan that was $2000/month. No parking, no a/c, 15 amps of power for the entire apt, no elevator (6 floors, I was on 6!), mice and roaches no matter what you do to get rid of them. Plus the winters can be brutal. Not to mention city and state income tax. If you own a car, the insurance is almost double with the same national companies.

True, the culture is lacking down here, but that’s what DFW airport is for.

However, my friends who do love it up there are the one who inherited their homes from their family.

[KelleyUSA]

I would have to say that the majority of people who move to Dallas move for business. The economy has been stronger in Dallas than many other parts of the country. I know most people who post on this site tend to be "urban" type people- however, when you look at the number of families that are moving here- I beleive Dallas has some of the best suburban cities in the USA. There are numerous clean cities with lots of restaurants and retail that suburban people seek- not to mention the cost of living and NO State income tax. Just look at Plano, Richardson, Southlake, Colleyville, Grapevine, Cedar Hill, Flower Mound and I could go on and on!

[CTroyMathis]

Older poll rebuilt for the upgraded Dallas - Fort Worth Urban Forum...

Original question and dialogue:

Economics are difficult to predict, but, when do you think there would be a chance for a significant tall high rise to be built downtown? Note: Keep in mind a condominium/residential possibility.

[CTroyMathis]

Older thread/poll merged into one now. :cool:

[pwright1]

Originally posted by KelleyUSA
I would have to say that the majority of people who move to Dallas move for business. The economy has been stronger in Dallas than many other parts of the country. I know most people who post on this site tend to be "urban" type people- however, when you look at the number of families that are moving here- I beleive Dallas has some of the best suburban cities in the USA. There are numerous clean cities with lots of restaurants and retail that suburban people seek- not to mention the cost of living and NO State income tax. Just look at Plano, Richardson, Southlake, Colleyville, Grapevine, Cedar Hill, Flower Mound and I could go on and on!
Most of my friends who moved to Dallas from the east say they wanted to own their own home. One of my friends said they were tired of living on top of a store, pulling a string to flush the toilet and paying $1500 a month for rent in Brooklyn. Sometimes the high density of the east, the high cost of living and the winters can take a toll on a person.

[psukhu]

I think from 2003 to 2005, most construction will be converting old office buildings to apartments.

By 2005, the office vacancy should start to look better and reflect a more accurate 85% to 95%. (by then, entire class C office building would no longer counted as vacant, such and the Dallas Power & Light complex) Residential population should be up and the downtown streetscape should be coming alive with more restaurants and retail.

By 2005 - 2007, banks will be more willing to loan money to developers who want to build the next signature skyscraper. It will be easy to lease space because the new building will offer superior amenities to any existing office tower.

[crescentboi]

So what are people thinking now? With all this new development and plans that are popping up all over uptown and downtown do you think that "The" tower will be built sooner or later? Do you even think that a new skyscraper will be buildt within the loop downtown or will it move to uptown and such?

[gc]

I guess that depends on how we are now defining downtown. The Mondrian, The Ashton, The W, and The International Centers could all count as highrises, right? Inside the loop may not see anything for some time with all the residential conversions...but I bet we'll get surprised somewhere! :D

[drumguy8800]

remember the rahamahajashimalapashipohoflgkdjfc building in the colony? that was hilarious...

[sterling]

I think the hottest contender lot in downtown is the one between the Nasher and the Meyerson Center. So many designs already proposed for it. Always office towers, sometimes with hotels. 2006?

[psukhu]

I'm thinking at least 200 meters tall. The Trammell Crow Tower is 209 m.

For reference, how tall with the W be?

[tamtagon]

I'm thinking at least 200 meters tall. The Trammell Crow Tower is 209 m.

For reference, how tall with the W be?

151 meters (500') is the inclusion threshold I've noticed for some of those city skyscraper comparison sites, so maybe a 200 meter tall building is well into the realm of skyscraper??? Ace, want to help nail down the exact definition of: mid rise, high rise, and skyscraper? :angel:

I think the convention center hotel is a good bet for the next skyscraper within the CBD.

Victory is sure to push the upper height limit allowed by regulations, a signature building of Victory office space. Victory has the advantage of managing a lot of land to engineer a dramatic sightlines and will take advantage of the I-35 sighelines (with CBD backdrop!!) to make the strongest advertisorial impression. The size of Victory is also its potential weakness if the bottom falls out and "Times Square"-esque buildout stalls.

How many proposals around the Arts District have been waiting for the right time, and I think the land directly across the highway from the museum was recently consolidated by an investment company...? I'm not really expecting anything taller than the most cost effective height, 50-60 stories, but the buildings will have the ultra-nice Dallas touch being in the new 'ritzy' part of town. Probably tall buildings between the CBD and Prado/Crescent - Arts District, West - will be shorter than Trammel Crow Bild, taller than Prado....

If uptown and Victory activity do not flood the Class A+ office space market all at once, rather a consistant increase in nice office space, greater downtown Dallas will be irrestiable to those wanting buildings with a 300+ meter height as a statement, machismo.

Trinity River Park timelines and anticipated useability will determine whether or not downtown jumps the southern highway boundary (I-35 & I-30) and converts Industrial into another mix of office and residential. If this park becomes as great as everyone desires, the most appealing building in the metroplex will compete for prime park side locations. If the city wants to increas property tax income, it will spend the money to extend to the Trinity River levees Turtle Creek Boulevard and the 'string of pearls' pocket parks along a daylighted Turtle Creek. This would convert a warehouse district (train track relocation may be a problem???) into one of the nicest parts of the metroplex - look it, Trinity River to the Park Cities! Of course that's a speculation for the 2030 and beyond, but now is the time for the city to direct the growth, rather than setting itself to simply react to what has happened....

Later this year, I think we'll see renderings for a handful of skyscrapers, of those two or three might get built with groundbreaking spring 2005. So much depends on the occupation timelines. Consistently increasing the nice office space in uptown will garner the greatest influx.

[mikedsjr]

I think everyone has to remember that there is still alot of sublease tenant space and vacant floors in downtown. We could see another building be built but you would be taking tenants from one tower to another and creating even more vacant space in downtown existing buildings.

Alot more residential space is going to be required before enough employement opportunities require a new skyscraper inside the loop.

[tamtagon]

I think everyone has to remember that there is still alot of sublease tenant space and vacant floors in downtown. We could see another building be built but you would be taking tenants from one tower to another and creating even more vacant space in downtown existing buildings.

Alot more residential space is going to be required before enough employement opportunities require a new skyscraper inside the loop.

Most of the vacant office space in the CBD is undesirable and/or off limits for health reasons. Of this space, much was constructed many years ago and does not meet present-day office configuration requirements. The vacancy numbers look really bad on paper, but are misleading with regards to a business opening an office downtown. The space left vacant for environmental reasons can only wait for demolition or rennovation. Demand for Class A space showes a healthy 90% occupancy rate and this is the only type of space brought online through high rise construction, and downtown needs more. When the building is left unattended, then the class A space deteroriated to class B/C.

[gc]

I have thought about this topic some more. It is very frustrating. There have been some good office renewals around the area lately and there are likely going to be some more deals done soon. Larchlion does not think another skyscraper will be built in DTD....aceplace thinks DTD is dead (inside the loop), etc, etc.

I know DTD's office vacancy is pretty high overall, but we all know that Class A and AA is hovering around 10-12% vacancy. That ain't bad. A problem with that space though is that it is not contiguous space. This hurts DTD's chances of obtaining any new large tenants, right? So, why are there no spec plans anywhere? If we are serious about revitalizing downtown and improving the business climate, then let's get some good new stuff in there. I still do not get it.

[drumguy8800]

how's the nyc vacancy levels..? A lot of the stuff there is old.. and therefore, probably not ocnsidered class A or AA.. do they just revamp the buildings or what?

[psukhu]

how's the nyc vacancy levels..? A lot of the stuff there is old.. and therefore, probably not ocnsidered class A or AA.. do they just revamp the buildings or what?


I don't know the actual numbers, but it's something crazy like 1%.


My office was in the Helmsley building at 230 Park Ave for four years. Built in 1928 with 35 floors.
http://www.emporis.com/en/wm/bu/?id=114271

No A/C, not enough electricity, but great architecture. As a tenant we had to burn about 200 sq ft per floor and put in our own A/C room that used two windows on each floor. We were plagued by blackouts and broken elevators. Let's not even talked about the unions that wouldn't let us do anything without hiring them. I would say that it was Class B or C

BTW, I've been to office in the Empire State Building and that also seems like class B or C.

To be honest, the WTC towers were very nice and seemed like class A.

[Lakewooder]

Well, maybe when the Arts District is being finished up in a couple of years, someone will build on the Lone Star site...would be nice to have a high rise apt building on it..

[drumguy8800]

I loved all the old 80s renderings.. They really focused on using stone instead of just giant glass boxes. Dallas would look a lot more friendly if they were built.. not necessarily friendly, but something.. cause i know that buildings like Trammel Crow and Chase Tower are way more beautiful (to me) than Bank of America and the like.. but without the glass boxes, we couldn't get those great sunset and sunrise reflections, and also, we couldn't appreciate the differences between the buildings. or something.

A 1% vacancy rate in NYC is annoying. ><. If a company is ever building up, and they want to have regional offices, they always want to have one in NYC because of its reputation. Dallas needs that kind of a rep. I always like it whenever I see some huge, international company or some fancy store.. and they have one of those ritzy name things that says 'New York Chicago Dallas London Sydney' or somethin, and Dallas is in one of the elitist cities. Greatness.

[Foucault]

I like Bank of America, but then I'm a huge Art Deco fan. I think it's a very prominent building in comparison to the understated SOM duo due to its reflective material and shape, and I think it makes a cool tallest building. Elm Place (the big black building) gets my vote for ugliest skyscraper, excluding the crumbling unused ones. But I think Dallas has a great skyline in comparison to most cities and we should be grateful for it.
Totally agree with you on the name representation. My favorite is Stanley Korshak, which just says 'Dallas'. I wish Neiman's would do something like that. Or maybe Dallas FI could persuade Donna Karan to start a DKDFW line...

[crescentboi]

I just wish someone would build another building along the lines of the Kirby or Magnolia, where there's a lot of ornamentation. I don't understand why that has stopped. everyone loves those designs. there's some historic towers in new york that just blow my mind at how intricate they are and it would be awesome to see something like that here. does anyone think that it could be realistic for someone to build a new skyscraper, but out of stone like that?

[tamtagon]

I just wish someone would build another building along the lines of the Kirby or Magnolia, where there's a lot of ornamentation.

I bet the vacant lots along Turtle Creek Blvd., when developed, will bring some beautiful buildings.

[hamiltonpl]

Could 7-11 actually end the doldrum of downtown office construction?

[drumguy8800]

OOOO look at how intuitive we all are. As of this post, 34.86% (the highest) voted for 2005-2006. Woo. Hoo.

[St-T]

^I just voted today... don't get too excited about that number. ;-)

[Columbus Civil]

Again, we need to define what "downtown" actually means before any of these numbers become meaningful.

[Tnekster]

Why?

[Haretip]

Inside the highway ring. Woodall Rogers on the North, Central/I-45 on the east, I-30 on South and I-35E on the west. I think this is the accepted definition of the Central Business District in spite of the growth in Uptown. You could probably make the West boundary the Trinity River levee and I might make a slight exception for Victory area. Seems like Victory is more of an extension of DT than anything else.

[RobertB]

Excellent powers of prediction (date was 05-12-2004, 11:06 AM):

Later this year, I think we'll see renderings for a handful of skyscrapers, of those two or three might get built with groundbreaking spring 2005. So much depends on the occupation timelines. Consistently increasing the nice office space in uptown will garner the greatest influx.
On the other hand, he predicted that the first one would be the Convention Center hotel, not a 20-story 7-11. Details.