Plano: Legacy Town Center

[smontgomery]

I think that it's interesting to note that they are building another Angelika theater in Plano. How do you guys/gals feel about this?

Shops planning for expansion
Legacy Drive shopping venue's developer will tinker with the formula

01/18/2003

By STEVE QUINN / The Dallas Morning News

PLANO – When developer Fehmi Karahan was making plans for the shopping center he was building at Legacy business park, he developed a strategy based on the competition he would face from the Stonebriar Centre and Shops at Willow Bend malls.

Instead of pursuing leases from national chains that would gravitate to the malls, Mr. Karahan focused on attracting established local retailers who would draw customers to the Shops at Legacy center, who opened last year.

"The original plan was to try to get typical names you see in the malls, but put them in an open-air setting, an alternative to malls," Mr. Karahan said. "Then, rather than go to big-name retailer names, we said, 'Let's go to the local guys who are proven.' "

And with one notable exception, it's proven to be a successful strategy. Still, he's abandoning it as he plans the shopping center's second phase. This time, he's pitching the Shops at Legacy as an attractive alternative to the malls.

"Now we are attracting national retailers who still like to be in an open-air center – boutique retailers," Mr. Karahan said.

The one exception to his successful effort was the closing last week of the Lester Melnick women's clothing store at the corner of Legacy Drive and Parkwood Boulevard.

Mr. Melnick, a local retailing legend who's operated his own line of shops for more than 40 years, closed the Legacy store after just four months, blaming the sluggish economy. At the same time, Mr. Melnick closed a second Plano store and the Fort Worth shop, leaving only the original location at the Preston Royal Shopping Center.

"I hated to see Lester go because he's a nice person and a great retailer," said Mike Zack, who operates Circa 2000 Fine Menswear next door to the vacant Melnick site. "But you've got to keep in mind, he didn't just leave here. He left two other places, so it's not a Shops at Legacy issue."

The issue on the minds of Mr. Zack and other retailers is the expansion under way at the center.

Angelika on the way


Eight restaurants have announced their intentions to locate in the area, and construction has begun on a five-screen Angelika Film Center, the first art-house theater in Collin County.
Mr. Zack, who moved his store to Legacy Drive from Preston Road, said his business is strong and growing. "As bad as the economy is, there are still good things happening and happening here," said Mr. Zack.

Circa 2000, Sara Gates Frame and Gallery and Empowered Women's Golf were all established stores when they moved to the Shops at Legacy last year. Several restaurant chains, such as Bob's Steak and Chophouse and Mi Cocina, took advantage of the center to open their first locations north of the Bush Turnpike.

The restaurants are attracting lunch and dinner guests from the built-in corporate client base at Legacy Park – Electronic Data Systems Corp., Frito-Lay Inc., Dr Pepper/Seven-Up Inc. Other customers are drawn from tenants in nearby luxury apartments and guests from the 400-room Doubletree Hotel.

Retail analyst Al Meyers called Mr. Karahan's developing strategy "an absolutely brilliant coup" in a sluggish economy.

"Trying to put in a me-too, look-alike would have been a disaster," he said. "Instead, he's got a nice eclectic mix of stores mixed with high traffic stores like Starbuck's and soon the movie theater."

Landing the Angelika might be the biggest development yet. The New York-based company hopes to open this fall, executives said.

Ellen Cotter, the Angelika's chief operating officer, said the company's success at its Mockingbird Station theater complex led her to listen to Mr. Karahan's sales pitch.

As an art and independent film theater, the Angelika does not "aggressively pursue expansions," Ms. Cotter said.

But Plano's market has promise, she said. "The Dallas area is a success story for us, and some of the ingredients that make Mockingbird Station a success – a great development and top-notch restaurants – are up in Plano," she said.

"We've developed an identity, and people are coming from all over to Mockingbird Station, so I know there is a market up there for us. We can take that and expand it further from Plano like we did in Dallas."

Eager anticipation


The Angelika, which is scheduled to open in the fall, and the restaurants Jasper's and Naan Korean, set to open in the spring, are expected to generate more traffic.
Sara Gates, who leased space for her frame store on Bishop Road near the Doubletree, said she "can't wait" for the restaurants to open.

For now, she's enjoying business from loyal customers who patronized her Parker Road shop, longtime corporate clients and new customers from the Doubletree.

"I know when people are out of town, they like to look for art, so we crate and ship a lot of merchandise out of state and internationally," she said. "This center is going to be great when it's finished."

[bloodandpopcorn]

I think building an Angelika out there is a fairly foolish move. as one of my friends recently said, " 'Plano folk' don't even know what art, much less an art film, is". While that's an exaggeration, how much of one depending on your own views of the area, it is definitly true that almost all of hte art film crowd is from urban dallas areas. An angelika in Addison might work, if it were marketed correctly. However, the people I know in Plano tend to care only about the "biggest screen!" or "biggest star!" or "#1 at the box office!", if they even comment on movies at all. So I think this may be Angelika's first really bad move. Hopefully their Mockingbird location will continue to do extremely well so that this doesn't send them crashing to the ground, but by limiting the theater to 5 screens I think they are saving themselves some eventual problems. Yes, the people will be un-impressed by such a low number of screens, but Angelika would loose alot more if it had to provide content on 10 or more screens to empty houses. And may be here they will go back to showing mainstream films in addition to independents. That might at least get people in the door... But who's kidding who, it's not as if Plano hasn't already overbuilt itself in movie theaters!

[freewaytincan]

Plano people=cultureless, for the most part. So why should they get one?!

[aceplace]

Three cheers for the new Angelika! That part of the Metroplex needs more venues for specialty films.

I think it will be succesful. Other Planos in other metro areas already support specialty filmhouses, Dallas just needs to come on board.

I am hoping that the new Angelika will increase the number of titles we have available at any one time. We already have about 20 or so foreign and specialty films available on weekends, including the Indian films at the Everest, and that is more than other metros our size have.

In fact, there are probably only 4 (or 5) cities in the USA that have more titles playing than Dallas does. NY, Chicago, San Francisco, LA for sure. We're actually ahead of Boston and Philadelphia and Washington.

But we actually need more. We'll always need more.

I'm thinking that the Plano Angelika will get film copies after they have exhausted their run at Mockingbird Station. Angelika Plano gets them from Mockingbird, and Mockingbird gets new films.

Instead of having 20 films in the Metroplex, maybe we'll have 24 or 25.

[psukhu]

I think this is good for the metro area as a whole.


...but I have to agree with comments about the "Plano Folk". :)

[aceplace]

Well, I think Plano is populated by many different kinds of people, not just one monolithic "type".

Obviously, we'll find out how succesful the new theater will be when it opens for business. Until then, we have no way to tell.

I'm in the habit of dismissing negative predictions, because they're so often wrong. For example...

DART won't succeed because Dallas doesn't have enough density...

DART won't succeed because people in Dallas are "different" from Northeastern cities...

Dallas will never densify because "Texans are in love with their cars"

Nobody in Dallas will want to live downtown....

Nobody in Plano will want to use DART...

Had enough? So have I.

Actually, it's not possible to prove a negative statement.

I mean it's impossible to know that something will never happen.

And it's a blunder, a rhetorical error, to argue a negative. One contrary example and you're proven wrong, you're hosed. But it takes an infinite number of supporting examples to prove that you're right.

What can make the theatre succesful might be the confluence of several factors...

Its location in a pedestrian-oriented setting, in a New Urbanism village...

Several restaurants within walking distance, as well as shops to browse in while waiting for a movie to start...

A resident population in the nearby hotel and apartment complexes... people who can go see a movie without using a car.

The Angelika books specialty films that have a middlebrow audience... like the Greek Wedding movie...

So... the Angelika people believe that there is a Plano audience for their product and they're risking some serious money on it. How many people would bet serious money that the Plano Angelika will fail?

[tamtagon]

I think Plano has potential. Being one of the heavily populated suburban cities to appear within one generation, the image of Plano mires as a soulless collection of selfish neighborhoods which inspired Vanilla Ice and a Pearl Jam song about suicide. But really, that's to be expected. Plano's springtime growth was singular in purpose: providing a better place for children.

Increasing the standard of living by eliminating commutes, the city's white collar workers began scavaging the business community of a struggling downtown busniess district. Both initives were thoughtful, methodical and wildly successful. For 20 years, the city was on the list of fastest growing cities in the country because it had what working parents wanted.

Plano foppery may have topped out. The future of the city began when it became built out. In another generation, rather than single family home consturction, occupancy turnover will determine the nature of city. The the age distribution will fan out and the population will stabalize, if it hasnt already. Those running the city must be detail oriented while focusing on upkeep and upgrades in addition to the nature of new construction.

I believe city planners have successfully and wisely steered away from unproductive image defense (sticks and stones). Staying true to providing an excellent infrastructure, long range planning of the 80's has built a viable city. So many Metroplex bedroom communities all seem the same, only the street signs indicate the city. From Grapevine Lake to Lake Ray Hubbard, the neighborhoods will always be similar. Plano has been the innovative leader. Frisco is taking the formula to heart. It is only natural that outside development like the Angelica will recognize the potential for success in Plano.

I would not be surprised to hear the next construction boom in Plano will be condo and apartment construction on scale with Turtle Creek and Uptown high rises. I would welcome the additional the living option. With reliable train service and the completion of the High-5 interchange, I suspect downtown Plano will become vertically residential as those running the city continue the residential courtship.

[CTroyMathis]

Good thoughts and discussion you guys. I thought I'd add what was printed in the Plano Star Courier. Some interesting details and what not...:


Angelika Film Center to expand into Plano

By SHAWN FLOYD , Staff writer 01/15/2003
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=6698085&BRD=1426&PAG=461&dept_id=186027&rfi=6

The Angelika Film Center has announced plans to expand into Plano by the end of the year with a new five-screen theater at Shops at Legacy.

The Plano Angelika Film Center, with a total of 1,200 seats, will be at Legacy Drive and North Dallas Tollway.

It will be smaller than the company's other Metroplex location, which opened with eight screens in Dallas in 2001.

Los Angeles designer Fred Dagdagan will serve as architect for the signature Bohemian-style art-house project, as he did for the company's original site in New York's Soho district and its Dallas and Houston locations.

Angelika theaters specialize in independent and specialty movies, geared mainly to adult audiences. Recent examples include "Frida" and the successful "My Big Fat Greek Wedding," although they also show some mainstream fare such as "About Schmidt," the new film starring Jack Nicholson and Southern Methodist University graduate Kathy Bates.

Angelika also shows foreign-language films.

The expansion of an art-house film company into Plano in part reflects the town's expansion and maturation in the last two decades to one of the state's larger cities that is home to an increasingly diverse, cosmopolitan population.

At present, children's programs at the Angelika are limited to the KidFilm Festival, sponsored by USA Film Festival, which is scheduled for Saturday and Sunday.

But that may change. Angelika spokeswoman Kelly Kitchens said some children's shows may be offered at the Plano center on Saturday mornings.

"Any community that the Angelika goes into, they'll enrich the cultural scene," said Ann Alexander, managing director of USA Film Festival.

The company, which taps into the market for cutting-edge films, has been somewhat surprised by its own success.

Attendance figures, said Angelika Films Centers COO Ellen Cotter, "far exceeded the company's original expectations and confirm that the DFW market is, indeed, one of the country's top art film markets."

She put attendance in excess of 530,000, or about 25 percent above projections.

The Plano site, like those of other Angelika theaters, is close to retail and restaurants.

The new theater won't have a café like the ones at other sites, but Kitchens said food other than the traditional movie fare of hot dogs and popcorn will be served.

The company already has theaters in Dallas, New York's Soho district and Houston.

The Dallas Angelika Film Center is at 5321 East Mockingbird Lane at North Central Expressway.

[mikedsjr]

specialty films? Booooorrrinnng!

but i don't even like watching movies for the most part.

[Knight23]

In some ways I think it is a joke but then again imagine movies like "Bowling for Columbine" being played in extremely conservative, gun toting Plano, ha!

[jammin]

Are you talking about "Jeremy" that song is about an incident that happened at Richardson High School.

[tamtagon]

Yes, Jeremy, class mate of the Pearl Jam drummer - or something like that. At one time the attempted suicide rate in Plano was the highest in the state.

[freewaytincan]

There's a good reason for it. Sprawling areas have always had a higher rate of reported suicides or attempted suicides.

Sad to say I was almost a statistic in that regard, multiple times...but I realized I had more to live for. I can assure you that suburban lifestyles are more than just a symptom but in fact a cause of many social ills.

[jammin]

Not nitpicking at all...Eddie Vedder read the clip of the story in the paper and wrote the song about it, it's also partially inspired by someone he knew in California...Dave Abruzzesse a former PJ drummer is from the Dallas area though...Can you tell im a big PJ fan...
I do remember the suicides in Plano though..

[tamtagon]

i dont know why i thought it was plano, my bad. i guess it was too convenient for the sentence i thought was so cleaver. plano and richardson neighborhoods were similarly perceived at the time, does that count.

about jeremy:

http://www.neteze.com/space/cds/sub/jeremy.htm

[freewaytincan]

Only as long as you promise never to mix the two again! Richardson is not Plano, and I thank God every day for that...

Yeah, it's pretty depressing.

[aceplace]

UrbanLandscape, have you checked out the Legacy Town Center in Plano? I think the best we can hope for in the immediate future is to have "islands of urbanity" in suburbs/edge cities like Plano.

[freewaytincan]

Seems snobby, for one, and also has too much parking. But right across from the God Pod at Ed's?! Wow! I didn't realize that. I suppose I'll go take a look sometime, probably this week.

[aceplace]

One problem I see, or at least a shortcoming, for Legacy, is the lack of a DART bus center there. DART had a plan to provide one in the area, but not really walking distance to the center.

In contrast, Addison Circle has that great transit center right on the edge of their property.

I think the choice of an Angelika type art house is a good one for the environment they are building. They are serving the entertainment needs of a very different market than the typical suburban mall teenager usually patronizes.

For mallrats, you need action films, date pictures with some romantic (but not lewd) smooching, grossout films and college-fraternity-on-spring-break movies.

The affluent thirtyish and fortyish patrons of an upscale suburban shopping/entertainment area have been exposed to plenty of social problems and incidents, and want the sort of films that explore family dramas. And that is a significant part of the Angelika's bill of fare.

An art house is part of a more sophisticated night out, one with some upscale shopping (or at least browsing) dinner in a good restaurant, and a more serious dramatic experience.

Having said that, I think the Legacy Angelika will have a slightly different bill of fare than the Mockingbird Angelika. More dramas about middle-aged couples, less Tibetan language social documentaries.

And basically, it'll be the only one... in a market area with at least a half-million people.

[psukhu]

think the Legacy Angelika will have a slightly different bill of fare than the Mockingbird Angelika.


I agree. This is what is showing right now at all three:

http://www.angelikafilmcenter.com/default.asp

[Hunter Wadle]

Alright! I love the Angelika! I would take the dart from plano to mockingbird all the time to see thier movies..... Thats cool that I will be getting one closer! :)

[downtownbum]

Quote (from aceplace):
One problem I see, or at least a shortcoming, for Legacy, is the lack of a DART bus center there. DART had a plan to provide one in the area, but not really walking distance to the center.

ace i think the fact is that suburban upper middle class people will not and do not ride buses. they do ride trains, which is why i can never find a place to sit, but that is cool. people that ride buses are people that do not have cars, plain and simple. i dont know why there is such a difference, but i do know that i fit into this category (except i am NOT upper middle class, maybe upper-lower class?) so long term we need to continue to expand our light rail, as has been discussed in detail here, and i dont think that "new urbanist" projects have much of anything to do with bus transfer centers.

[Quiz03]

That is true about the middle class not looking favorably on buses. Look at Addison Circle, a great new urbanist place with a large transfer center easily in walking distance, but the level of transit ridership there is lacking. When that area finally does get rail I expect ridership from that station to become quite large. There is simply a rail bias for transit riders of choice.

[freewaytincan]

People would have to let go of car use. So maybe a loss of oil rights could be a good thing. I think that when it starts to become a problem, the tax rate on gasoline should continuasly rise, while the gas rate for efficient transit would not. And then a tax break would eventually be viable for those who have a hydrocar or better yet, use public transportation.

But you're right about the buses. I like them, actually. I find them more comfortable and more secure than most private automobiles I ride in or drive. They are pretty convinient here in Richardson, all things considered. And once I actually get someone I know, yes one from North Dallas, to ride a bus, they in fact enjoy it. So give it about twenty years. The perception of buses is about to change...

[aceplace]

There is definitely a predjudice against buses vis-a-vis trains, but it is much weaker in the case of express buses originating from a transfer center and traveling directly to a downtown.

[psukhu]

Originally posted by aceplace
There is definitely a predjudice against buses vis-a-vis trains, but it is much weaker in the case of express buses originating from a transfer center and traveling directly to a downtown.

I agree with that observation.

By 2010, I think we'll view urban villages in tiers: 1) ones that are walking distance from a light rail station, 2) ones that are served only by buses, 3) ones that are only reachable by car.

[downtownbum]

i agree with you ace, and what i see as the future of dart is getting people to and from work. those are the longest trips people make for the most part, and the ones that express buses and light rail make most convenient. outside of that and riding to downtown to enjoy a stars hockey game, mavs b-ball game or concert, it is more convenient for people to own an auto and use it for short trips, which is exactly what i do and what people in places like plano do. the problem we need to do more and more to solve with mass transit is commuting, and i think people who work dt and live in places like NoDal and plano would agree that 45 minutes on a train is a much nicer commute than 30 or 45 minutes in a car on a busy road like central.
i like psuku's assesment of neighborhoods accessible by train, bus or car and believe that developments like mockingbird station, convenient to all three, will be the centers of future development in the next 10 years and beyond.
btw to ace, i was thinking about when you were talking about old city park and i would love to see an addison circle style development joining old city park with the cedars station. it would at the same time make OCP convenient to rail users (as the neighborhood right now is not one that i would want to walk through) and combined with the south side on lamar development it would create critical mass to make the southside/ cedars neighborhood "the next uptown" which i envision it becoming.

[aceplace]

Yeah... an Addison Circle development between the Cedars Station and OCP.

I think it would succeed becaus the two things (the park and the station) create a sense of place between them.

Someone said of Oakland, CA, once that ..There is no "there" there. She meant that there was nothing prominent to give you a sense of being somewhere in particular, rather than being in the middle of nowhere.

If that area is developed, that will add something else... a linear "path" if you will, conceptually connecting the Cedars, OCP, The Farmer's Market, Deep Ellum, the Wilson blocks, The medical area, Bryan Place, and on to Uptown.

That linear path would be a natural for a streetcar loop around Dallas, similar to a prominent streetcar loop in Amsterdam that shows you all the prominent places in the city.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Yes, I agree. I think that MATA and DART need to get to work planning with the city and landowners for a large street car loop now. Even if it's not built for 5 years (as I've heard being said that in 5 years the planned mega-system should be done, or almost done), making the plans known and public will bring in development in these areas. If we get some planner to help keep diversity and logical transitions between areas, it could be amazing. And it will definitly bring some more character to Dallas.

[Tnekster]

A growing Legacy


Karahan Cos.
Artist's rendering of the Legacy Town North addition to Legacy Town Center.By Steve Brown


Four years ago, when Fehmi Karahan started work on his Legacy Town Center project, he had a struggle to convince retailers to get on board.

Now he's doubling the hugely successful shopping center and mixed-use project in West Plano, and everybody wants in on the deal.

The first strip of new retail is being built on Legacy Drive just east of the Dallas North Tollway. Construction will begin in the coming months on hundreds of apartments and townhouses.

Longer-range plans call for a luxury hotel and office building on the 75-acre site.



Steve Brown is real estate editor for The Dallas Morning News.

Read more of this story in tomorrow's Dallas Morning News or at DallasNews.com.

[Tnekster]

Thing about these urban suburban developments that gets me sometimes. Suburbs have offered themselves up as the "solution" to an out of control Dallas. Now they spend all this time and money trying to create these big city urban feeling developments.

[jsoto3]

^^Please always post a link with the article. Thanks.

[Tnekster]

^^Please always post a link with the article. Thanks.

OK, will do but I got this story via email so I don't think it has a link until it appears in the paper in the morning.

[Lakewooder]

"the Legacy Town North addition to Legacy Town Center"


Does this strike anyone else as completely imbecilic?

http://www.ogunquitplayhouse.org/images/MissnStatmnt_EvaArden.gif

[Columbus Civil]

A larger Legacy in Plano

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/041505dnbuslegacy.10e4770e.html

Popular development is doubling

11:31 PM CDT on Thursday, April 14, 2005

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

PLANO – When Fehmi Karahan started building his Legacy Town Center project four years ago, he struggled to get retailers on board.

Now construction has started to double the hugely successful shopping center and mixed-use project in West Plano, and everybody wants in on the deal.

The first phase of the addition will be retail space on Legacy Drive.

The first strip of new retail is being built on Legacy Drive just east of the Dallas North Tollway.

Construction will begin in the coming months on hundreds of apartments and townhouses. Longer-range plans call for a luxury hotel and office building on the 75-acre site.

"There is at least $600 million to $700 million in real estate completed on the south side of Legacy, and there will be the same or more on the north side," Mr. Karahan said. "We will do the retail in three phases and add another 400,000 square feet."

The first phase of Legacy's expansion includes a 115,000-square-foot shopping center on the north side of Legacy Drive across from the existing retail.

"With the construction of that section, we will create a boulevard effect on Legacy Drive," Mr. Karahan said. "It will change the whole feel of the area."

The city will install new landscaping and paving along Legacy Drive between the tollway and Parkwood Boulevard.

"We are keeping the same architecture on the north side but will try and use more color," Mr. Karahan said. "We are using timeless materials and quality – granite brick and stone – to achieve the urban modern design that has its own character."


So far the planning has paid off. Karahan Cos.' 375,000-square-foot retail center on the south side of Legacy has been a hit with nearby office workers at lunch and nighttime diners.

The Angelika Film Center that opened this summer brought thousands more visitors to the development.

Developers Post Properties and Robert Shaw have built more than 1,000 apartments adjoining the retail, and Goodman Homes is adding 68 townhouses on another block.

The same game plan will be used on Legacy's north side, where Goodman intends to start more townhouses this year and Mr. Shaw is designing the first of several new apartment communities.

"We are really riding a wave in that project," said Mr. Shaw, who just broke ground for 326 apartments in Legacy Town Center. "And the more critical mass that's built, the better it will be.

"I think the expansion north of Legacy will become a new front door for the whole project," he said.

More parks

Along with shopping and residential construction, the north side of Legacy Town Center will have four park areas. Landscaping is being added around the edges of the historic Baccus Cemetery at Legacy and Bishop Road.

Highlighting a greenbelt along Bishop will be a 22-piece Western sculpture with life-size cattle and horses.

"I think the parks are going to be one of the most important parts of the project for both the visitors and residents," Mr. Shaw said.

Restaurants including Jasper's, Mi Cocina, Cafe Express and Bob's Steak and Chop House have been big draws for Legacy Town Center. In all, the complex has almost 80 retailers and restaurants.

Kent Rathbun, executive chef of Jasper's, said the restaurant's Legacy Town Center location "met and exceeded our expectations. It's a proven deal already. Everybody loves the center and to add more to it will only help."

New restaurants

In the north side expansion, there'll be more dining and entertainment tenants plus lifestyle and accessory merchants, Mr. Karahan said.

Fox Sports Grill will open with more than 15,000 square feet, and Fireside Pies, a popular restaurant on Henderson Avenue in Dallas, will open a second outlet.

"We are also talking to a number of national retailers who do not have presence in Collin County," Mr. Karahan said. "They think it's a good fit for them."

Most of the new retail buildings will also have office space on the upper floors.

Plano officials said they are encouraged by the success of Legacy Town Center.

"All and all, it has exceeded everyone's expectations," said Frank Turner, executive director of Plano's Development Business Center. "It has become a real urban activity center for Plano.

"When it started, it may have seemed like it was out in the middle of nowhere."

Legacy Town Center has attracted nationwide attention from developers and city planners. Most recently, Mr. Karahan said, city representatives from Santa Fe, N.M., came by for a tour.

"I get calls all the time now from people wanting to work with our firm," Mr. Karahan said. "Everybody wants me to build a new project."

E-mail stevebrown@dallasnews.com

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/v3/04-15-2005.NB_15leg1.GDC1INU5Q.1.jpg

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/img/04-05/0415legacy.jpg

[carousel]

Good News for Plano.

[vman]

Do you guys think that these "urban" centers in the surburbs will keep people from visiting or moving back to the central city??? It seems they're getting most of what's in Uptown & Mockingbird Station, only without the traffic, crime, homeless , or other city woes. I personally find nothing "urban" about these places. They are very nice, clean, and sterile, with all the flavor of ice water. But then I feel the same way about Uptown, and these places are less "urban" than that.

[msutton]

which is exactly why the majority of people who really want an 'urban' experience will still move to 'urban' dallas. This is more an alternative to the old apartment communities that have existed in suburbs, and the city, forever.

[tamtagon]

Do you guys think that these "urban" centers in the surburbs will keep people from visiting or moving back to the central city??? It seems they're getting most of what's in Uptown & Mockingbird Station, only without the traffic, crime, homeless , or other city woes. I personally find nothing "urban" about these places. They are very nice, clean, and sterile, with all the flavor of ice water. But then I feel the same way about Uptown, and these places are less "urban" than that.

I think the urban-styled developments in the suburbs and satellite cities contribute to the vibrancy of the actual urban core. It's important for each suburban community to have a local focal point with all the desired amenities for running a household. This situation allows the true downtown to house the niche operations which depend on a visitation from very large consumer population - like a first rate symphony hall, opera house, museum, owner-operated clothing store, tri-level hip-hop dance club, 5 star restaurant etc. Every suburban neighborhood should have for its families, every possible household Consumer Product Goods, dining, movie theaters - whatever a family would do on an average evening within a 15-20 minute drive. These mixed-use lifestyle centers are an efficient way to accomplish that, as well as create a much more stable marketplace in the downtown area for unique, novelty, niche and bizarr products and services.

[gc]

^ Word to tamtagon's thoughts.

I don't think they will keep people away from the city. For example, people can anything they want from the malls in suburban Chicago, yet tons of people still go to the "Magnificent Mile".

[carousel]

Do you guys think that these "urban" centers in the surburbs will keep people from visiting or moving back to the central city??? It seems they're getting most of what's in Uptown & Mockingbird Station, only without the traffic, crime, homeless , or other city woes. I personally find nothing "urban" about these places. They are very nice, clean, and sterile, with all the flavor of ice water. But then I feel the same way about Uptown, and these places are less "urban" than that.

I think we need to give these "urban" centers time to age. With age I imagine the flavors will improve greatly.

[tamtagon]

I think we need to give these "urban" centers time to age. With age I imagine the flavors will improve greatly.

Highland Park Village has aged very gracefully, it's one of my favorite lifestyle centers in Dallas. Wait, no way, are we being asked to think these shopping center builders in 2005 have come up with a brand new idea?!?!?! Whatever, moron. Southlake should make sure their town center doesnt get too big.

[Tnekster]

Do you guys think that these "urban" centers in the surburbs will keep people from visiting or moving back to the central city??? It seems they're getting most of what's in Uptown & Mockingbird Station, only without the traffic, crime, homeless , or other city woes. I personally find nothing "urban" about these places. They are very nice, clean, and sterile, with all the flavor of ice water. But then I feel the same way about Uptown, and these places are less "urban" than that.

I had the opporunity to go to a Roughriders game in Frisco last night. We spent about 2 hours at the ballpark until the game was cancelled. Then we decided to go across 121 and take in Legacy Town Center and a movie at the Angelica theater. Both the ballpark and legacy were very nice and I could not help but be reminded that it felt like a West Village without the people. Parking was not a problem and when we got out of the car there was not a person in sight. The theater was nice but again with no people around, we were the only people in line when buying tickets. When we got out at 11 the place was pretty much shut down. When visiting West Village I have become used to an ever increasing number of people bustling about. Legacy Town Center did not have that feel, it was nice but felt very empty.

[texman]

Legacy Town Center did not have that feel, it was nice but felt very empty.
Go around 6 or 7. Then you'll get the West Village crowded feeling. Around 9 everyone seems to vanish.

[tamtagon]

Go around 6 or 7. Then you'll get the West Village crowded feeling. Around 9 everyone seems to vanish.

I guess that's the difference between the single-oriented developments and the family-oriented developments. Families have homework to do, and go to bed early, singles just have to get to work on time-ish.

[Trophy Carol]

I too have seen Lexington's homes in Oak Lawn. Their beauty, quality and price surpass all others. I only wish they built in Trophy Club.

[darkblood]

The Legacy in Plano was pretty nice when I walked through it last, however I was a bit turned off with all the cars everywhere. I still think they need a transit center there, even if it is just buses. The employees at all those retail shops would like that, and all the people working at the local companies that are tired of driving to work would like it too. Hey, they could even have a bus that take a lap around Stonebriar Mall and all the many many restaurants and shops around there.

I know this is somewhat unrelated, but eventually I imagine they will have a DART rail running along SH-121, and that would be nice, bringing lots of business from the airport to Legacy Town Center.

Darkblood
*I want trains, DAMNIT!*
-2k5

[psukhu]

I guess that's the difference between the single-oriented developments and the family-oriented developments. Families have homework to do, and go to bed early, singles just have to get to work on time-ish.

You are exactly right. That's why these urban town centers are not competition for the inner city. If I go through the work (and cost) of getting a baby sitter, I'd want my outing to be at a place with vibrant night life. I'd make the 20 to 30 minute trip from the 'burbs to the inner city.

It's hard to stay out late on the week days if you have young kids, even if you bring them out with you. You have to get them to bed on their regular schedule and get everything ready for the next day. It's not like the pre-child days when you can just stumble in the front door and head straight to bed. :D

[Tnekster]

Office space planned for Legacy complex

CarrAmerica Realty, J.P. Morgan unit have teamed up on project


08:36 AM CDT on Wednesday, June 15, 2005


By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News


West Plano's popular Legacy Town Center complex is getting more office space.


CarrAmerica Realty
A 156,000-square-foot building is being built near the North Dallas Tollway in the Legacy Town Center complex. CarrAmerica Realty Corp. and J.P. Morgan Asset Management are developing a 156,000-square-foot building near the Dallas North Tollway.

J.P. Morgan is already an investor in two nearby office buildings. CarrAmerica – a real estate investment trust based in Washington, D.C. – is one of Dallas' biggest suburban office landlords.

The two companies "have been partners for some time" and saw an opportunity to build in Legacy, said Jeff Pace, CarrAmerica's managing director for Texas.


BETSY BOCK/Staff Artist "We believe we are developing in the sweet spot of this market," Mr. Pace said. "It's a very attractive location with a low office vacancy rate.

"What really sets it apart is the mixed-use environment," he said.

Legacy Town Center – which combines shops, restaurants, apartments, office space and a hotel – has been one of the most successful developments in Dallas' north suburbs.

In October, CarrAmerica and J.P. Morgan bought the One and Two Legacy Town Center offices on the east side of the tollway. Those buildings are about 95 percent leased, Mr. Pace said.

The six-story office that's going up – Three Legacy Town Center at Tennyson Parkway and Bishop Road – should be ready by May. It was designed by Dallas architects Good Fulton & Farrell.

"Having all these offices around us brings more customers for our retailers," said Fehmi Karahan, who's building the Legacy Town Center retail village. "The reason CarrAmerica and J.P. Morgan are starting that project is that this complex has been so successful."

CarrAmerica owns and operates 23 office buildings in the Dallas area with about 3.5 million square feet.

[freewaytincan]

Ah, more office space! Just what Plano needs.