Dallas Streetcar

[gc]

Dallas streetcar plan pitched
Council, DART agree to study idea to bolster economic development
09:57 PM CST on Monday, December 13, 2004
By DAVE LEVINTHAL / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/121404dnmetstreetcars.a247c.html

As revolutionary as they are retro, streetcars should play a starring role in downtown Dallas' economic redevelopment, some city officials say. Specific plans and cost estimates for lining downtown streets with rails, as they were decades ago before burgeoning automobile use prompted their demise, are very preliminary. A proposal presented by supporters to the Dallas City Council's transportation and telecommunications committee on Monday suggested a three-line system linking with the Dallas Area Rapid Transit light rail system and administered in part by DART.

City Council and DART board members agreed to investigate the idea, which might lead to the formation of a public/private streetcar investigation committee – or a more powerful, semi-private "local government corporation" – under the name Dallas Streetcar Inc. "We're not asking the city to give us money," said Miguel A. Del Valle II, chief executive officer of Pegasus Parking Ventures, who with Raymond E. Stanland of the Dallas-based Stanland & Associates urban design and planning firm presented a 14-page streetcar plan to the council and DART members.

"The only critical thing now is to get a high-level policy group in place that we can work with. We're not asking anyone to buy a pig in a poke here," Mr. Stanland added. Skepticism among some DART officials lingered, however. "Dallas is not a tourist city downtown, although I'm willing to look at exploring it. But at what expense?" DART board member Beatrice Alba Martinez said. "I know you're not asking for money – now. Everything costs money." Said DART board member Terri Adkisson, "I wouldn't want to commit DART to it unless I know we could do it right." The lone active streetcar system in Dallas runs along the Uptown section of McKinney Avenue to the northern edge of downtown.

The new system suggested in the streetcar presentation would connect with the McKinney Avenue trolley line and might circulate throughout downtown's arts district, down Ross Avenue and back up San Jacinto Street and along Main Street. Like the McKinney line but unlike DART light rail trains, Mr. Stanland and Mr. Del Valle said, the streetcars would share roads with automobile traffic. The streetcars themselves may also look similar to DART trains, as opposed to the McKinney line's vintage streetcars. Federal transportation grants, parking meter fees from private auto garages and money from downtown business owners are potential funding sources, Mr. Stanland and Mr. Del Valle said.

Council member Bill Blaydes, for one, is sold. "If DART doesn't want to do it, the city of Dallas better darn well sure get into the middle of it and get it done," Mr. Blaydes said. To get from one side of downtown to another, Mr. Blaydes said, he's forced to drive, then search in vain for parking. "I'm a fat white man who doesn't like to walk," he said jokingly. "For people living and working downtown, it is a need now, and we need to get it done as quickly as possible." Transportation and Telecommunications Committee Chairwoman Sandy Greyson described the proposal as "intriguing." Council member Lois Finkelman called it "exciting."

But Ms. Finkelman cautioned against creating a local government corporation to explore streetcars, especially because the council is already considering such an entity to coordinate general downtown Dallas redevelopment efforts.

E-mail dlevinthal@dallasnews.com

[crescentboi]

It's a good thing that they are looking into this more seriously. I just hope they do a line along Main St, and then a second line further south, maybe along Wood or something. This is badly needed downtown, and i feel it would be a catapult for development along with all the other things that are happening downtown.

[tamtagon]

But Ms. Finkelman cautioned against creating a local government corporation to explore streetcars, especially because the council is already considering such an entity to coordinate general downtown Dallas redevelopment efforts.



I'm sure this wasnt a misquote, but Ms. Finlelman would have been more appropriate to say "... because for a decade the council has been considering such an entity to coordinate general downtown Dallas ...."

Criss-crossing greater downtown Dallas with trolly lines originating at DART stations and from adjacent neighborhoods will energize the city many times more than any other single initative. There is no time to waste for the city to build the transportation advantage needed to become the most attractive business and residential location of all sunbelt cities. With DART, Dallas is billions of dollars ahead of comparable cities, the next step is pervasive offgrade public transportation giving access to all areas of greater downtown Dallas.

[urban_bearkat]

An interesting idea; I haven't decided whether I like it or not yet. The pessimist in me says that if it in fact this were to be built (and with Laura Miller, any tangible improvements in downtown will get axed, meanwhile 30 million dollar birdges are built and newspaper machines are pulled off the sidewalk), the project would be neutered beyond the point of being of any use to anyone, even tourists. Anyway, without further ado, here's the article.

[urban_bearkat]

well, i'm a dummy. didn't see that the article was already posted in another thread. shoot.

[freewaytincan]

Well shock of all shocks! It's you!

[rantanamo]

This needs to happen 5 years ago. I don't want to move back to Dallas without this done. This should not take two years to get to the real drawing board. Get to work on it now! And send it to the Farmers Market too :P

[drumguy8800]

I just really hope that the system is hightech like Portland's or Toronto's.. otherwise, the system wouldn't exactly be convenient or enjoyable. Whenever I take the M-line, I'm always dissapointed in the noise and inefficiency of the system. Eh.

[texman]

Yes..modern cars and air conditioning :D I like to hear the citycouncil doing somthing in favor of Dallas. This is visionary, but how would they send it down Main? Theres alot of traffic on there. I guess this is for the rail thread.

[Haretip]

And now, an ad hominem momemt:

Take time to reread the article, Drumguy8800, but this time don't just skim. The article clearly states that the cars would be similar in appearance to DART cars, not MATA's vintage cars. This is the writer's way of telling the average reader that they want to use modern Portland-style streetcars. I know it's a prime opportunity to slam the condition of the MATA equipment, but you look a little silly arguing for something that was already stated.

[rantanamo]

I think the MATA equipment is fine if it isn't used as a transit system. Would even like to see it used some downtown Maybe just on a small spur segment or just one out x number of cars.

[St-T]

The cars need to be air conditioned if they are going to be used in the summer!

[RobertB]

In the MATA Expansion Map (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3181) thread, I discussed the idea of taking private cars off Main entirely, moving the cars to Elm/Commerce and putting the buses and a trolley line down Main, with a wide sidewalk. Also, the technical issues: Haretip, did you once say that Main couldn't support the weight of a streetcar line due to old utility tunnels?

But on-topic to this particular discussion: making the streetcar vehicles look like Dart Lite would be a big mistake. It would dilute the "brand identification" of both the LRT system and the MATA system. System planners should see bus, LRT, commuter train, and streetcar as an integrated system, but that doesn't mean they should all be painted yellow.

Use the streetcar lines for their strengths -- frequent flexible stops and nostalgic experience. Sure, the truly vintage cars may be a bit old for the job, but their replacements should have the same look-and-feel. They compliment the LRT, but should retain their distinct character. Make them strictly functional, and they'll soon have as much function as the current MATA cars did 20 years ago... as futuristic haybarns.

[drumguy8800]

And now, an ad hominem momemt:

Take time to reread the article, Drumguy8800, but this time don't just skim. The article clearly states that the cars would be similar in appearance to DART cars, not MATA's vintage cars. This is the writer's way of telling the average reader that they want to use modern Portland-style streetcars. I know it's a prime opportunity to slam the condition of the MATA equipment, but you look a little silly arguing for something that was already stated.

I read the article and saw this statement. It says "may." I'm just expressing my opinion. And yes, it was a prime oppurtunity. While I enjoy taking the trolley and taking friends on it, I have yet to understand why they made the system rickety and loud for the sake of nostalgia.

[Haretip]

I have explained before in other threads why the cars are in that condition. The system was not "made rickety". It became that way over 15 years.

I will say that I agree with anyone who criticizes the condition of MATA's system. I used to laugh at the condition of the cars in New Orleans and how surly their operators are. Well, MATA's cars have lost their luster and they have even hired a few operators who could easily be described as unpleasant.

If Dallas would support the operation and maintenance of the streetcar system, we may once again have a service that you would enjoy riding, and not take every opportunity that presents itself to criticize the system.

Frankly, I consider the cars to be unsafe and I do not like to operate or drive in front of them. I wish I didn't feel that way. If getting a "vacuum cleaner" car or forming the Dallas Streetcar Inc. will bring a level of funding that will allow adequate maintenance and expansion of the system, then I say bring it on.

But in the meantime, feel free to continue to criticize and express your opinion. If there's one thing we do well around here it's talk about how things should be. Seems like trolleygirl is the only one who actually does something about anything anyway. But that's just me expressing my opinion.

[drumguy8800]

i meant more of "they knew" that it would become rickety and loud. true or false: a new car would be much more effective than restoring vintage cars and maintaining them..? i have no way of supporting the system, but there are plenty of people here like LakeHighlands and crescentboi who make sacrifices to help this city. So, please don't make blanket statements like that.

[St-T]

^you go, boy

[Haretip]

Well, if we're parsing our statements, I said it only SEEMS like TG actually does stuff.

I disagree with your other comments. They did not know that they would not be able to raise adequate funds to maintain the cars over time.

I do not know what the service life of new cars is, but the historic cars are still viable after 70-80 years. With proper maintenance, they could easily serve for several more decades.




I am supportive of the Dallas Streetcar Plan, as I think this is the way to transform the existing streetcar system into the Dallas version of San Francisco's MUNI. I am not particularly fond of the proposed name, "Dallas Streetcar Inc."
I also think McKinney Avenue Transit Authority is not a good name for a system that would exist substantially outside of McKinney Avenue. . If you could rename MATA/DSI, what would you call it?

[barrycb]

DATA - Downtown Area Trolley Authority

[RobertB]

I am supportive of the Dallas Streetcar Plan, as I think this is the way to transform the existing streetcar system into the Dallas version of San Francisco's MUNI. I am not particularly fond of the proposed name, "Dallas Streetcar Inc."
I also think McKinney Avenue Transit Authority is not a good name for a system that would exist substantially outside of McKinney Avenue. . If you could rename MATA/DSI, what would you call it?
I don't know that I'd rename it at all. As long as the streetcars still run along McKinney, then it seems to me that "McKinney Avenue Transit Authority" has a nice ring to it. It calls to mind an older time when there were multiple transit systems competing for business, before they all lost out to GM and the rubber tire companies. Plus, it looks really good in gold on the cars when I see them from Woodall Rodgers.

[dark humor]But then, if they really want to start the new acronym with a D, how about the DARNIT: the Dallas Antique Rusty Noisy Incomplete Trolley system.[/dark humor]

[Haretip]

I think Trolley is a bad word.

First, trolley is considered a northern expression, whereas a more fitting term for a southern city like Dallas is "streetcar". But then again, the yankees do outnumber the natives in Dallas. ;-)

Portland seems to have taken a lead to distinguish the modern circulators from light rail by re-adapting the streetcar term. DART has also coined the term "M-Line Streetcar" to help identiy the mode since many people would confuse the M-Line Trolley with those buses that seem so ubiquitous.

I also think "trolley" is a tourist oriented word because of San Francisco's system heritage equipment (even though erroneously applied to the cable cars). The DSI proposal would be a system designed for general circulation of all transit riders, not specifically catering to tourists.

The name of the streetcar system when it stopped operating was Dallas Railway & Terminal Co. I believe they had ownership of the Interurban Building, which is why they added "Terminal".

Common name parts in the old days included Transit, Traction, Electric, and Street Railway. No reason that it can't be an acronym, but I favor the older naming styles.


HAHA.. DARNIT would work well for MATA, but hopefully that wouldn't apply if DSI gets implemented.

[F4shionablecHa0s]

Could DART be convinced to build and run this system? What if they replaced all the buses that run downtown with the streetcars, and have the street cars stop at the downtown bus transit centers as well as the rail stations? It seems like this could be made to work nicely.

[freewaytincan]

Could DART be convinced to build and run this system? What if they replaced all the buses that run downtown with the streetcars, and have the street cars stop at the downtown bus transit centers as well as the rail stations? It seems like this could be made to work nicely.

I agree. While they wouldn't be able to remove all downtown buses, it would certainly be a vast improvement.

[gc]

^ TG2, here is another thread for you to post your thoughts and uhhhmm inside scoop!

[psukhu]

Haretip, they are also called streetcars in Toronto.

[Haretip]

I know. MATA got bought two of the Toronto PCC streetcars, which they can't run until they get a turntable and a loop installed since they are single-ended cars. I suppose a clarification of my statement would be that Trolley is generally a northern/northeast U.S. expression.

GC, if you refer to the MATA Expansion Map thread under the transportation page you will see that TG2's comments are about the Dallas Streetcar Plan. Miguel is advocating a maverick plan while the board members of MATA are continuing to work on the downtown expansion plans.

I think TG2 has to be restrained in her comments since there is so much negotiation and politics involved with the extension.

As always, my comments should not be construed as official since I am not an employee or involved with the regular operation of the system. And TG1 is in the same boat now ;-)

[gc]

^ Thanks Haretip. I wanted to refer her to this thread as well.

Are you no longer volunteering as an operator?

[texman]

I know. MATA got bought two of the Toronto PCC streetcars, which they can't run until they get a turntable and a loop installed since they are single-ended cars.


Will the ride be more comfortable? Im serious too, I know Boston still uses them on there transit system.

[Haretip]

Let's just say I operate on rare occasions due to my work situation. I am also deeply involved with the Fort Worth streetcar group which is taking more and more time. We are going to be very busy on the west side of the Trinity this year with a new permanent location and new equipment. Spring Rally is coming up too!

[gc]

^ Tell me more please. FW streetcars? Where?

[CTroyMathis]

I suppose this is the long-visioned 'Fort Worth Trolley' going on Lancaster or thereabouts...? We need to restart a FW streetcar thread. It's been a couple of years or more.

[RobertB]

Let's just say I operate on rare occasions due to my work situation. I am also deeply involved with the Fort Worth streetcar group which is taking more and more time. We are going to be very busy on the west side of the Trinity this year with a new permanent location and new equipment. Spring Rally is coming up too!
must... resist... mapping...

Aw, to heck with it. Does the proposed map look anything like this? Are they thinking of connection the Cultural District and Stockyards via real streetcars instead of the rubber-tire replicas (that really only replicate the noise and little else)?

[tamtagon]

must... resist... mapping...



hahaha

[CityLove]

I know. MATA got bought two of the Toronto PCC streetcars, which they can't run until they get a turntable and a loop installed since they are single-ended cars. I suppose a clarification of my statement would be that Trolley is generally a northern/northeast U.S. expression.

GC, if you refer to the MATA Expansion Map thread under the transportation page you will see that TG2's comments are about the Dallas Streetcar Plan. Miguel is advocating a maverick plan while the board members of MATA are continuing to work on the downtown expansion plans.

I think TG2 has to be restrained in her comments since there is so much negotiation and politics involved with the extension.

As always, my comments should not be construed as official since I am not an employee or involved with the regular operation of the system. And TG1 is in the same boat now ;-)
One wonders why, if someone is no longer affiliated with an organization, and additionally favors making derogatory remarks about said organization, that someone continues to have said organization's logo under their screenname...

[texman]

must... resist... mapping...

Aw, to heck with it. Does the proposed map look anything like this? Are they thinking of connection the Cultural District and Stockyards via real streetcars instead of the rubber-tire replicas (that really only replicate the noise and little else)?

That route is a really good idea. With connections to commuter rail at T&P, the ridership would be huge. I would hope they use modern cars though.

[RobertB]

That route is a really good idea. With connections to commuter rail at T&P, the ridership would be huge. I would hope they use modern cars though.
The big concern for me, pulling maps out of thin air, is that the FW streetcar lines compliment whatever The T (or whoever) has planned for light rail service. Are there any details? I've heard on this board that the rail line on the west side of the levee will be part of it, with a station near the old Montgomery Ward's store, but that's about it. I'd have run the streetcar down 7th Street, to put the line close to the station, but 7th is the primary auto route to Camp Bowie from downtown and we can't interfere with vehicle traffic (no, no, of COURSE not). Lancaster across to the Will Rogers Center is a less-travelled route, and fits nicely with future redevelopment of the area rescued from the clutches of I-30.

By the way, does the FW project have a name? How about we call it FWATA - Fort Worth Antique Transit Agency. It has a local point of reference -- isn't that the sound you make when you slap a mosquito? bzzzzz-FWATA!

[Haretip]

One wonders why, if someone is no longer affiliated with an organization, and additionally favors making derogatory remarks about said organization, that someone continues to have said organization's logo under their screenname...

Well, I suppose my affiliation is not the same degree as it was last year, or 5 years ago, or 14 years ago.

And the truth is hardly a derogatory remark. How many automobiles has 143 hit with no operator at the controls?

I have spent countless posts on this message board defending and explaining MATA, but I find it increasingly difficult to do.

As for the logo... Well.

[msutton]

i always thought that haretip was quite supportive of MATA...

[texman]

Whatever happend to this? I guess city council doesnt have time for such matters when their dealing with themselfs.

[aceplace]

Whatever happend to this? I guess city council doesnt have time for such matters when their dealing with themselfs.Of course they don't. Neither does the US Congress. The solution isto have the executive branch of government under the control of the US President, and to allow Congress to just pass legislation. You don't want Congress to try to operate the Department of Energy, nor do you want the Dallas City Council operate the city government.

Our dysfunctional municipality operates the way it does because it is not correctly organized. If the strong mayor plan is not the best possible answer, then it is a step in the right direction... meaning the willingness to change, instrad of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

Another suggestion... instead of having 14 council and a mayor, how about 250 in the council? That eliminates the ethnic gerrymandering we currently have.

Also, instead of one councilor, one voue, how about awarding each councilor the same number of votes he/she received in the popular election... that would be a truer reflection of the popular will and the willingness of the voters to vote.

This means that all the candidates from a particular district could potentially take office, and execute the number of votes each received. The cutoff would be numeric... the top 50, or 250, would go to the council...

The districts would not have to be equal in population, but could represent a community. Since communities are usually of different sizes, a delegate could be elected on a community basis, irregardless of its relative size. The voting power of the small community delegate would be in proportion to the size of his community.

This would make for some interesting horse-trading.

[texman]

Our dysfunctional municipality

Theres that word again!

[RaStyyle]

Those words alone sum it up...ace is right.

[RobertB]

As frustrating as City Council inaction may be, I'd say they at least have a good excuse for not getting around to expanding the trolley lines. Until the city's management system is determined by the voters, one way or the other, it's going to be pretty pointless to attempt to make long-term plans. Plus which, there's the issue of the Downtown Improvement District and whatever it becomes. That's a controversial issue in and of itself, even if Dallas wasn't facing a radical shift in its governing structure.

Not that anyone should let up on the pressure. Just keep things in perspective.

[FoUTASportscaster]

I guess this is dead?

[CityLove]

I guess this is dead?

That was dead before it was ever alive. If DART wanted to do a streetcar feasibility study themselves, I'd believe it. But the person who was said to be heading this "Dallas Streetcar, Inc." is known for trying to get money just to do "studies"...and then never really studying anything.

It's a shame, because I'd love to see more streetcar lines in the city...but the right person needs to be in charge of it. And I don't claim to know who the "right person" is.

[aceplace]

It's a shame, because I'd love to see more streetcar lines in the city...but the right person needs to be in charge of it. And I don't claim to know who the "right person" is.How about a joint effort between FoUTA and Ace? Between the two of them they cover the spectrum of opinions about streetcars.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Then we'd get something done. ;)

[aceplace]

:bounce:

[tamtagon]

Then we'd get something done.


:bounce:


gag me w/spoon

[Mephis Gooseberry]

Finally the truth is revealed, Tamtagon is a Valley girl. I haven't heard "gag me with a spoon" since the 80s.