DART Expansion Plans (11/2004)

[RobertB]

I didn't get a chance to post these pix earlier, sorry. These are the handouts from DART's Victory Station opening. They expand on information previously posted to this list. Note that the "Potential Rail Corridors" map now includes the type of rail envisioned in each of the blue arrows. Of course, the Irving portion of the "Light Rail Buildout" map is already outdated, as the far-north option has already been scrapped.

Sorry for the poor quality. I took pictures with my digital camera on the front seat of the car. These really need to be scanned properly.

[texman]

Yeah, I scanned those too but the attachments thing wouldn't load them. I curious about the second CBD alignment. Is that when it will be completed? I hope its a subway.

[jsoto3]

Yeah, I scanned those too but the attachments thing wouldn't load them.

I believe there is a 2MB limit (total per post) on attachments.

[RobertB]

Yeah, I scanned those too but the attachments thing wouldn't load them. I curious about the second CBD alignment. Is that when it will be completed? I hope its a subway.
Obviously (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2716), I'm also hoping for a subway.

Whether that is a completion date depends on how well things progress on the NW/SE lines. It also depends on whether Dallas leaders can act quickly enough to head off the impending bottleneck along Pacific.

* 2007-2009: Carrollton/Farmers Branch/Love Field/Fair Park/Pleasant Grove extentions go online, and march through downtown. The number of trains on the downtown transit mall doubles.

* 2009: The trains are all packed. Sentiment grows for more "lift", but DART is constrained by train length and traffic concerns.

* 2011: The first phase of the Irving line opens, grinding downtown traffic to a halt with 2:30 headway between trains.

* 2013: Buildout to D/FW, and hopefully up to the Grapevine Station, is complete. If we don't have a subway by now, we're going to be in big trouble.

Right now, Dallas and DART are focused on the subway under Love Field. If the new Fed/TxDOT money means that it gets built sooner, then the city council can focus its attention on the downtown subway line.

I don't think the Dallas CC will be able to discuss the downtown subway until construction actually begins on the Love Field tunnel. Assuming a best-case scenario, that might happen in 2006... if we start digging under downtown as soon as we're done digging under Love, we'd have time to get a subway line done by 2011.

The danger of waiting too long to plan the downtown subway is that we'll be in a bind. The quickest (and probably cheapest) way to get some rails off the street is to take the Red and Blue lines and run them below Old Central Expressway straight down to the industrial area south of I-30. You end up serving East Main, Farmer's Market, and Old City Park... and none of the east-west downtown core. I don't think you'll get enough business support with that route, but it may make sense if we're at 2009 without any other plan.

I've attached some quick maps. First is the 2013 plan without new subways. Second is the 2013 plan with an "emergency" bypass route that takes the red and blue lines down Central, past the downtown core but still serving some nice TOD-ready areas. Third is a plan with my "orignal" downtown subways plus the Farmer's Market route... this may warrant another look, 'cause the two north-south lines and an east-west connector open up some nice possiblities!

[drumguy8800]

It's really sad.. how happy these things make me.

2nd CBD alignment! 2013! Aiee! :D.. Nice proposals, RobertB. Belo would love your Jackson St. Alignment. And so would I - that street could really use some help.

*ermmff* - 2018 is on there. I'll be 30, then. ::feels sick::

[Mballar]

I think that you can find the plan at the following link:

http://www.dart.org/2030TSPUpdateAndMapsNov04.pdf

I think that will save you a lot of scanning. :)

[drumguy8800]

Nothin' more annoying than a freakin' pdf.. all adobe programs, actually. oh, look. it loaded.

[Mballar]

Yeah, I forgot to tell ya that it might take a few ticks to load up.

[freewaytincan]

It's really sad.. how happy these things make me.

Me too. This is glorious. I especially like the tandem light rail - commuter rail portions.

[texman]

*ermmff* - 2018 is on there. I'll be 30, then. ::feels sick::

Me too! But oh well. Also, I think thats just an extremly delayed date DART smacked down for the south extension. I mean c'mon, 2018? 4 years after all the other lines are complete?

[texman]

* 2007-2009: Carrollton/Farmers Branch/Love Field/Fair Park/Pleasant Grove extentions go online, and march through downtown. The number of trains on the downtown transit mall doubles.

* 2009: The trains are all packed. Sentiment grows for more "lift", but DART is constrained by train length and traffic concerns.

* 2011: The first phase of the Irving line opens, grinding downtown traffic to a halt with 2:30 headway between trains.

* 2013: Buildout to D/FW, and hopefully up to the Grapevine Station, is complete. If we don't have a subway by now, we're going to be in big trouble.



You make it sound like armageddon. But I can see the news headline on the DMN. "TRAINLOCKED" Then a picture of some women standing outside of her car in downtown at an endless red light while DART trains continue to pass.

[drumguy8800]

Not to start a tangent (but oh well, where else is this thread gonna go?) but...

I don't think I'd mind a subway line through downtown.. But I'd really like to have at least another surface line running downtown (if not two or three.) Why? Because subway stations only attract development around a given radius - but things like transit malls (because of the urban aura or something) seem like they would attract more development along the physical line. If it was just a line, say, under Jackson.. you could expect some stuff at the nodal points, but nothing along the entire stretch. But.. if it was on the surface, you might see stuff the entire way down.

[texman]

Not to start a tangent (but oh well, where else is this thread gonna go?) but...

I don't think I'd mind a subway line through downtown.. But I'd really like to have at least another surface line running downtown (if not two or three.) Why? Because subway stations only attract development around a given radius - but things like transit malls (because of the urban aura or something) seem like they would attract more development along the physical line. If it was just a line, say, under Jackson.. you could expect some stuff at the nodal points, but nothing along the entire stretch. But.. if it was on the surface, you might see stuff the entire way down.

Unlike heavy rail (metro type system) with stations alot more distanced than light rail, the stations would be the same distance apart as in a transit mall so I wouldnt expect the growth to be any different, but I may be wrong.

[Mballar]

Because subway stations only attract development around a given radius - but things like transit malls (because of the urban aura or something) seem like they would attract more development along the physical line.

Yeah, like that explosion of development along DART's existing transit mall! [sarcasm] ;)

[rantanamo]

^I thinks that's more due to existing infrastructure. If you made that original transit mall a few blocks south where there are lots of empty lots, there would be lots of development.

[RobertB]

I think that you can find the plan at the following link:

http://www.dart.org/2030TSPUpdateAndMapsNov04.pdf

I think that will save you a lot of scanning. :)
Ooooh, that's nice. gc needs to add a :slobber: smilie to his collection.

But the complaint about everything being in .pdf is entirely justified. Adobe's online conversion tool only converts the text, so it's useless for even something like the timeline, which is composed of a table containing both text and images. But it does have some copy-n-paste functions, plus a screen scraper.

Here are some of the more important and interesting images -- but you'll want to get the .pdf to see them in their original resolution, sometimes with text comments added.
* The "Current 2010 Transit System Plan"
* Something called "Bus Rapid Transit" -- can anyone identify what this is supposed to be a picture of?
* The base map over which they overlaid the blue arrows.
* The blue-arrow map. Lower quality because I had to use the screen scraper. The .pdf has three versions: just "rapid", just "express", and the combo.
* North Crosstown Corridor Rail Alignment Alternatives. Wow... does this look good, or what?
* The timeline for the next year: from the current phase of proposing alignments to DART board approval of the new 2030 Transit System Plan.

Edit: The link below has "normal" pictures of the timeline as well as the more detailed "Evaluation Process". I don't know if it was there before -- maybe I should give DART a few days to webify their presentation and keep an eye on this page (http://www.dart.org/mis.asp) for updates!
http://www.dart.org/transitsystemplan2030.asp?zeon=transitsystemplan20 30timeline

[freewaytincan]

The background on the second image looks like my mom's Mervyn's card from the 80s.

Can you imagine that someday? "Next stop: Fate."

Of those three options on the last image, all three will probably eventually happen. I personally think that they need to stay on the Cotton Belt. It really makes the most sense, at least at first. I imagine that eventually all three will be taken.

[RobertB]

Can you imagine that someday? "Next stop: Fate."

Of those three options on the last image, all three will probably eventually happen. I personally think that they need to stay on the Cotton Belt. It really makes the most sense, at least at first. I imagine that eventually all three will be taken.
I like the idea of seeing a train in downtown with a destination sign reading simply, "Fate". Perhaps it would board at Purgatory (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=777)?

My first thought was that the area isn't dense enough to support all three lines, but hopefully that will change -- especially as cities and developers realize the benefits of dense retail/residential districts with rail stations at their heart.

I think the Cotton Belt line from Carrollton Station to Addison Station is highly suitable for light rail, with several stops to serve Addison's hot Belt Line restaurant strip. DART tried a circulator "trolley" in the area, but it was discontinued -- I don't think circulator buses work when you've already ridden a bus to get to the transfer point.

From there, I think DART is looking at the high-density office tower corridor between Arapaho Road and I-635 as a good place to serve with rail. There is existing ROW in the area, but it swerves away from the Galleria and into an industrial park. Along I-635, I don't know what they're thinking -- perhaps they're hoping to get TxDOT to bore an extra tunnel while they're in the area. As appealing as this stretch is, getting rail from Addison Station to Galleria and from there to LBJ/Central is a tough nut to crack.

I don't see much in the way of high-density demand along the rest of the routes. But the most northern line (the KCS/BN line) seems like a good route for express commuter rail from Plano to D/FW and FW. I'd combine the options, though... KCS/BN to the junction with the Cotton Belt, then along the Cotton Belt to Bush Turnpike Station.

[psukhu]

^
Robert, have you been to London? Southeastern England has an extensive passenger rail network. Most of the rail coverage area is not that dense, except for the big cities.

http://www.rail.co.uk/ukrail/railcomp/towelcm.htm

or

http://www.nrekb.com/toc_list.html


At something like $5 a gallon for gas, rail transit is very feasible in the UK.

I've ridden to places outside of London (casteles, etc) and I can't believe they have rail running through farm land. It seems like everyone in England is a short drive away from a station. From there they can ride into London or to one of the airports.

[RobertB]

^
Robert, have you been to London? Southeastern England has an extensive passenger rail network. Most of the rail coverage area is not that dense, except for the big cities.

http://www.rail.co.uk/ukrail/railcomp/towelcm.htm

or

http://www.nrekb.com/toc_list.html


At something like $5 a gallon for gas, rail transit is very feasible in the UK.

I've ridden to places outside of London (casteles, etc) and I can't believe they have rail running through farm land. It seems like everyone in England is a short drive away from a station. From there they can ride into London or to one of the airports.
I've only been in London once, during a long weekend to Paris for my stepmom's birthday. Yes, a long weekend in February in Paris... the sort of thing you can do if you're an airline employee. You should have seen what you had to go through to get cheap hotel rates before the Internet! But I digress... I got to see the inside of Victoria station, and that was about it. I've seen more of the UK rail system from An American Werewolf In London and Harry Potter than I have in person.

I think Americans may be more price-conscious on gas than we once thought. We're not even up to $2, and hybrid vehicles are the new "in" thing (which sucks, 'cause now I won't be able to get one). But even in the worst case, I don't think we'll see $5 a gallon anytime soon... the Saudis & the oil companies would rather keep us addicted by raising prices slowly, except when there's an excuse to set a new level. If that weren't the case, we'd either be back to $1.50 or up to $3.00 by now.

[MazelT]

This picture of what Dart calls "bus rapid transit" was taken in Curitiba Brazil. I am sure because I went to school there for a while. Curitiba is world famous for their efforts at efficient urban planning. I don't remember all the specifics of the system. I remember that the bus gets its own lane of traffic and in many places, that lane is separated from the rest of the street by a small median. Those large tube-shaped buildings next to the bus are like mini- bus stations. Instead of buying your ticket on the bus you buy it inside one of those stations. If you have to transfer to another bus, you can get off your bus and stay inside the station and get on another bus without having to pay for another ticket. You can take as many buses as you need to, just as long as you do not exit the station. It kind of works as an alternative to lightrail or street-car. The buses don't have to fight the traffic because they have their own lane. Honestly, it works really well and is very cost-effective. Also, the doors on these buses are too high up to let people on or off the bus without being at one of the special tube shaped bus stations. It was designed with this in mind, but I don't remember why.

Curitiba (Kur-i-CHEE-ba) is about the same size as Dallas and is one of the nicest places I've ever been. Dallas could really follow their example. One of the things I liked the most about the city were the Pedestrian-Only streets. There were only a few of them, but they were always full of foot-traffic and were lined with planters full of flowers. Also most of the streets and sidewalks were made of cobble-stone lined out in artistic patterns (which you can see in this picture).http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3861

[MazelT]

You can find more information on Curitiba's "bus rapid transit" system on this page. http://www.curitiba.pr.gov.br/pmc/a_cidade/Solucoes/Transporte/index.html

You can use bablefish or something like it, to translate it to English if you don't speak Portuguese.

[drumguy8800]

English Translation of above website (although a rather crummy translation): click (http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/trurl_pagecontent?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.curitiba.pr .gov.br%2Fpmc%2Fa_cidade%2FSolucoes%2FTransporte%2 Findex.html&lp=pt_en)

Thanks, MazelT. That's a pretty cool system- Metro in LA is building the "orange line.." a system that goes even farther than the Curitiba system - instead the buses just using specific lanes in a road, they use their own road. Click here (http://metro.net/projects_plans/orangeline/default.htm) for info about that..

[saxman66]

I'm new to this forum, but have been a railtransit fan all my life.....

I would like to see some subways in downtown. Riding on street level just seems to take a really long time to get through downtown with all the stations, then the "red" lights. I would also like to see some things starting in Fort Worth. Will TRE take the routes of the other commuter rails? I'd like them to run on the UP line through Arlington, even though thats a very busy frieght line.

Chris

[rantanamo]

Maybe the stadium will prompt Arlington to do something. But then again, that probably breaks their backs financially.

[Mballar]

I'm new to this forum, but have been a railtransit fan all my life.....

I would like to see some subways in downtown. Riding on street level just seems to take a really long time to get through downtown with all the stations, then the "red" lights. I would also like to see some things starting in Fort Worth. Will TRE take the routes of the other commuter rails? I'd like them to run on the UP line through Arlington, even though thats a very busy frieght line.

Chris

DART is planning a subway line down Jackson Street for is second downtown alignment. So your wish should be fulfilled.

As for TRE running through Arlington, I don't think that it will happen anytime soon. Arlington voters recently torpedoed a ballot initiative that would have paved the way for rail transit. Now their tax dollars will be going towards funding the New Cowboys Stadium.

[drumguy8800]

DART is planning a subway line down Jackson Street for is second downtown alignment. So your wish should be fulfilled.

Where'd you get this info?

[RobertB]

DART is planning a subway line down Jackson Street for is second downtown alignment. So your wish should be fulfilled.
Has DART said anything officially about their subway plans? I know the Dallas Morning News backed Jackson Street (and the Dallas Observer viewed it as the work of the Devil), but that's all I've heard about on the various subway threads on this board.

Another place you'll find a Jackson Street alignment is in my subway designs (available in detail here (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2716)). In honor of saxman66's joining the board, I've put together a quick overview of the subway routes I've got planned out (including the Uptown "local" subway which is probably several decades away). I wish I *did* know what DART's got up (or should that be down) its sleeve!

[Mballar]

Where'd you get this info?

Secretly, that's always been the "plan."

[freewaytincan]

Secretly, that's always been the "plan."

Nice. So do you work for DART, or what?

[Mballar]

Nice. So do you work for DART, or what?

No, but I do have friends inside of the agency. Also, I am privy to info. through my involvement with a couple of downtown organizations.

[texman]

Secretly, that's always been the "plan."

Hmm, hope this isnt another "70 story tower planned for downtown" prank.

[jsoto3]

Why DART never planned a station at Hall Street to serve the emerging State Thomas area boggles me. Does anyone know if they ever did consider it? Having no station there is what makes planning an Uptown subway line so difficult. Given Uptown's east/west breadth and its unusual geographic geometry, an alignment along Cedar Springs is too far west and an alignment along McKinney is too far east, despite the two streets being so close and nearly parallel. If there was a station at Hall on the existing redline then a Cedar Springs alignment would be a no-brainer. Thoughts?

[Mballar]

Why DART never planned a station at Hall Street to serve the emerging State Thomas area boggles me. Does anyone know if they ever did consider it? Having no station there is what makes planning an Uptown subway line so difficult. Given Uptown's east/west breadth and its unusual geographic geometry, an alignment along Cedar Springs is too far west and an alignment along McKinney is too far east, despite the two streets being so close and nearly parallel. If there was a station at Hall on the existing redline then a Cedar Springs alignment would be a no-brainer. Thoughts?

I'm assuming you mean a Hall Station on the blue/red lines heading toward Cityplace Station? If that is what you mean, there is not enough distance to travel completely under Central Expressway from where it starts to go below grade at Ross Avenue.

[crocodile_hunt_er]

Yeah, they really need to add a Hall St Station and also a do that Knox/Henderson Station too...

[freewaytincan]

They can't add a Hall Street Station. Read the previous post.

I can't wait until they finish out Knox-Henderson.

[texman]

I can't wait until they finish out Knox-Henderson.

Does anyone know a date for that. Im expecting 2018.

[drumguy8800]

A Routh Street station is also proposed.

[freewaytincan]

Man. All this stuff seems so far away, but 2018 will be here before you know it.

I'll be thirty-two.

[Mballar]

DART keeps funding hopes on track
Official says record supports aggressive $700 million request

09:17 PM CST on Tuesday, February 8, 2005


By TONY HARTZEL / The Dallas Morning News



Plans for DART's southeast and northwest rail lines keep chugging along, but the transit agency faces a higher-than-average hurdle to get $700 million from Washington to help build the rail lines, the nation's top mass transit official said Tuesday.

In outlining the Federal Transit Administration's 2006 transit project priorities to reporters, administrator Jennifer Dorn said she doesn't foresee any major problems with Dallas Area Rapid Transit's plans to open the first new rail line segment by late 2009. But the key will come later this year when DART formally lays out its $700 million request.

"It has given us some pause," Ms. Dorn said of the dollar amount. "It is a rare exception in federal transit circles to commit to anything beyond $500 million."

One exception, Ms. Dorn noted, is New York City, which is seeking $2.6 billion in federal funds for a project to bring more commuter rail lines into Grand Central Terminal.

DART's $700 million request represents the largest single amount of federal funds ever sought by the agency. Anything less than $700 million could delay the opening of some local rail lines, although the exact impact has not been determined.

"We're still very comfortable with the $700 million request," said Gary Thomas, DART president and executive director. "We understand it's aggressive, but we have a track record to support it."

If approved, the federal funds would pay for 47 percent of the $1.49 billion cost to build the 20.9-mile light-rail line from Pleasant Grove to northwest Dallas. The line also would run through Fair Park, downtown Dallas and the hospital district. DART also has plans to use its own money to build 29 more miles of light-rail lines in Farmers Branch, Carrollton, Irving, D/FW Airport, Rowlett and south Oak Cliff.

Although the amount of money being sought is a challenge, DART officials quickly pointed out that the Phoenix transit agency recently received a federal commitment for $587 million to build that region's first light-rail line. In comparison, that project's costs per user are 11 percent higher than Dallas'.

DART officials also take pride in their track record, which includes finishing the rail line to Richardson and Plano ahead of schedule and under budget. That led them to return about $22 million to the federal government after the project was finished.

Federal officials have given DART's project a recommended rating, which many other transit agencies did not get in Tuesday's announcement. The FTA expects to give DART approval this spring to enter the final phase of designing the rail lines.

"I don't see any significant impediments. It's just not a project that has reached a comfort level with us in committing" $700 million, Ms. Dorn said.

DART expects to receive an answer on its funding request by spring 2006. Light-rail projects in Denver and San Diego are at roughly the same point in the federal approval process, and they could be viewed as competitors when future money from Washington is distributed. In comparison, the Denver transit agency is seeking $249 million, and its project has a cost per user that is almost identical to DART's. The San Diego transit agency is seeking only $66 million in federal funds, but its costs per user are about half that of DART.

"We have a solid recommended rating," said Mr. Thomas. Federal officials also announced Tuesday that DART and five other transit agencies will share a pool of $158 million to help continue work on projects before a federal funding commitment is made. Of that amount, DART has asked for $40 million to help pay for planning in the next fiscal year.

E-mail thartzel@dallasnews.com

[RobertB]

This answers a question I've asked myself daily, as I drive down Good-Latimer to bypass the Mixmaster, going under the soon-to-be-gone Deep Ellum bridge. "When will the dirt start flying?"

The answer: no time soon.

I had thought that DART already had its ducks in a row for the SE/NW line, but I was way off.

* Feb 2005: Feds give the project a "Recommended" rating, but are coy about the $700m price tag.

* Spring 2005: Feds give DART permission to enter the "final phase of designing the rail lines". I'm hoping that DART can reduce the complexity of the Carrollton line -- see this post (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3195).

* Summer, Fall, Winter 2005: Local congresscritters apply their m@d sk1llz to ensure that the Bush budget gives DART a big enough allocation of pork.

* Spring 2006: DART finally gets an answer: yes, no, or maybe.

* Late 2009: The first segment of the new line opens. I'd expect it to be the stretch to Fair Park/MLK, but it could be the Parkland segment.

* 2010-2011: The rest of the Carrollton-Pleasant Grove route comes on line.

Meanwhile, the Irving line has to wait, because there just aren't that many companies out there with the specific skills required to build a light rail line. That entire route is yet to be nailed down, anyway. Sorry, Las Colinas.

[texman]

* Summer, Fall, Winter 2005: Local congresscritters apply their m@d sk1llz to ensure that the Bush budget gives DART a big enough allocation of pork.


I don't think the feds will be giving out much 'pork' due to Bush's new cut-everything-domestic (and rail) budget. I can only hope Kay Bailey or someone secures it.

[rantanamo]

Saw a thread on ssp with the various competing projects. I imagine NY gets its money, but I also imagine the others get money before Dallas. Most are starter lines though they have scarily low ridership estimates. I'd imagine them wanting to spread the wealth, though the Texas influence as well as past DART success could win it the money. After seeing the other asking prices I'd say the DART asking price is a super deal going by projected daily ridership.

[zigwamo]

ughhh....this makes me nervous. The upcoming battle over the federal budget is going to be a bloodbath.

[rantanamo]

I'm not as nervous as I was when first seeing the total. Some of these places are asking for ~$500 million for like 10 miles and ridership in the very low thousands. The Dallas and NY proposals at least have good ridership on their side, and the Dallas line has lots of miles for much less money than the others. Much better cost per user in a system that has already seen success. I think its more of a matter of do they want to help success get better or start new uncharted territories.

[Mballar]

^I would think that the FTA would want to give DART what it's asking for, if for no other reason than to "reward" DART for its successful track record. I think that this will send a positive message, to other agencies seeking money, that says "if transit agencies do what they say and complete projects under budget and ahead of schedule, then that will help to secure future funds."

[sockid]

rat- Getting a recommend is a good sign indeed...The big cities New York, LA and esp Chicago are chewing up the loin's share of the money. Go to the FTA website and take a look at the city breakdown.

[frankchitown]

The big cities New York, LA and esp Chicago are chewing up the loin's share of the money.
Ouch, that sounds painful

[Columbus Civil]

hehe

[RobertB]

Pork report: today's NPR Morning Edition featured an interview with the chairman of the House Appropriations Committee. The reporter noted that Amtrak is on the chopping block in the initial Bush budget. The chairman pointed out that House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) is a major proponent of Amtrak (and you need only look at a rail map of Illinois, especially Chicago, if you have any doubts).

That's a mixed blessing, of course. It means that public transportation of some form will have a seat at the trough, but it could also mean that Amtrak will have an advantage over intra-city transit systems when the horsetrading begins. It's going to be a year of sweaty palms for the folks at DART.