DART N. Irving LRT public meeting

[RobertB]

DART has just posted info about the next North Irving - D/FW LRT line public meeting. According to a blurb at the bottom of the page, the meeting was delayed from July "due to delays in ridership modeling." But when you look at the map, you see that "ridership modeling" depends heavily on what happens in Arlington on Tuesday; the first station after the Irving line branches off is the "Texas Stadium" station. Pretty pointless to build a DART station by an empty stadium, especially when the New Restaurant Row area is booming.

http://www.dart.org/publicmeetings.asp?ID=183

Corridor Update Meeting
Update on DART Light Rail through Irving/DFW Airport

Wednesday, November 10, 2004, 6:30 p.m.
Irving Arts Center (Suite 200)
3333 North MacArthur Blvd.
Irving, Texas 75062 MAPSCO 31B-A

The Northwest Corridor to Irving/DFW continues with its Environmental Analysis, which includes the process to identify a corridor alignment. The Environmental Analysis process will provide more detailed information about the project's alignment, station locations, operations, and the environmental impacts associated with the project.

Corridor Background:
* 1983 - NW Corridor identified in DART Final Service Plan
* 1989 - DART Transit System Plan includes rail to North Irving
* 2000 - Northwest Corridor MIS (Major Investment Study) approved by DART Board, including an LRT line to serve N. Irving and DFW Airport in response to significant new development in area.
* 2002/2003 - Alternative LRT alignments identified through city of Irving and into DFW airport, varying from MIS alignment.
* 2004 - Initiate Environmental Analysis/conceptual engineering process.

* Public Meeting # 1, January 21, 2004

* Public Meeting # 2, April 28, 2004

* Public Meeting # 3, November 10, 2004

Our next public meeting is scheduled for November 10, 2004. The public meeting will provide an opportunity for official public input and help define any issues to be addressed during the Environmental Process.

For more information, contact DART Community Affairs at 214-749-2543

Note regarding the 2030 Transit System Plan Update:
DART held six public meetings in April 2004 to discuss the Transit System Plan effort, highlight future mobility issues and review the initial alternatives and evaluation process. The original schedule shown at the April 2004 meetings reflected public meetings in July 2004. Due to delays in ridership modeling, the next round of public meetings is tentatively scheduled for Fall 2004. These meetings will present the preliminary results and recommendations of the conceptual evaluation phase. In addition, a newsletter will be available to the public in late July.

[freewaytincan]

I can't wait to see all this done. Every time I see those proposed paths it gets me all kinds of excited.

[drumguy8800]

I can't wait to see all this done. Every time I see those proposed paths it gets me all kinds of excited.

Does it.

[tamtagon]

I can't wait to see all this done. Every time I see those proposed paths it gets me all kinds of excited.

Me too.

Connecting with rail the job centers of DFW Airport, the CBD and Las Colinas will have a profound impact the ability of these employment centers to attract more businesses. This should have been the first line to open.

When it's time to get rid of Texas stadium, I'd be tickled pink to see major educational expansion by Univ Dallas and UTSouthwest, or creation of another business district, or round two of the Trinity River Park.

[freewaytincan]

This should have been the first line to open.

I don't think so. The north-south corridors had to be done first.

[tamtagon]

DART's single most significant impact on the economy of the metroplex will be regular service between DFW Airport and the region's employment centers. Ridership on the DART train to/from the airport will probably generate revenue enough to be profitable.

It doesnt really matter, though, since the train to Plano was built first. I do think the Dallas CBD - DFW airport route will prompt quicker development of a LRT route from the Fort Worth Cultural District - DTFW - DFW Airport - Las Colinas - CBD.

[aceplace]

DART's single most significant impact on the economy of the metroplex will be regular service between DFW Airport and the region's employment centers. Ridership on the DART train to/from the airport will probably generate revenue enough to be profitable.

It doesnt really matter, though, since the train to Plano was built first. I do think the Dallas CBD - DFW airport route will prompt quicker development of a LRT route from the Fort Worth Cultural District - DTFW - DFW Airport - Las Colinas - CBD.Don't you think heavy rail, as in faster speeds, complete grade separation, third rail, etc, like MARTA in Atlanta, would be more appropriate?

[tamtagon]

Don't you think heavy rail, as in faster speeds, complete grade separation, third rail, etc, like MARTA in Atlanta, would be more appropriate?

Heavy rail - I dont know. I'm not really sure what the differences are between light and heavy rail.

Faster speeds, complete grade separation, third rail (??is this to allow express trains as well as local???) yes, yes, yes

I think it's vital that the three transit authorities the operate the same type of rail system, and I guess since DART started with light rail, it should be the backbone of rail transportation in Dallas, Tarrant, Collin and Denton counties.

[Foucault]

I think "third rail" refers to the electrified rail that heavy-rail trains use as a source of electricity, as opposed to the catanary wires of light-rail trains.

[aceplace]

The difference between light and heavy rail?

MARTA in Atlanta is heavy rail. The cars are larger and heavier, and they could never run on rails in the street. Light rail cars are smaller and lighter, and can operate either along a grade seperated pathway, or can run down the street like a trolley car, stopping at every intersection.

The New York subway system is classic heavy rail.

Since the trains will never run on the street, they can derive their power from an electrified rail parallel to the other two. Of course, pedestrians will never be allowed to cross the tracks.

The big advantage, of course, is speed and capacity. Heavy rail is faster, can accelerate and decelerate faster, and has a higher capacity. In San Francisco, they run 10 car trains. Here in Dallas, 3 cars is about the maximum, even though 4 car trains are technically possible.

Not that many corridors can justify heavy rail. Light rail is much cheaper, and so can be placed in a less intense corridor. Dallas to Fort Worth through Arlington would be a big enough corridor to justify heavy rail, but that and North Central would be the only corridors in Dallas that would need it.

[Haretip]

So many misconceptions, so little time.

Might I refer you to the APTA website on heritage streetcar systems. http://www.heritagetrolley.org/Definitions.htm

Notice the definitions for the different transportation modes.

Light rail has comparable acceleration characteristics to heavy rail as both use electric motors and can probably stop quicker than heavy rail.

By its definition, light rail does not stop at every corner. That would be a streetcar.

[RobertB]

Might I refer you to the APTA website on heritage streetcar systems. http://www.heritagetrolley.org/Definitions.htm

Thanks for the info! I had been incorrectly thinking of the TRE as "heavy rail" to distinguish it from "light rail". D/FW isn't likely to ever see NY/SF style "heavy rail", then, because it's a whole other animal from the other two.

I'll spend some time (probably entirely too much time, as a matter of fact) looking at those definitions and debating the options for bringing rail out to Kaufman. Ellis County (Ennis) and northern Kaufman County (Forney/Terrell) have existing freight rail, so commuter rail may be the best fit. But all we have between Dallas and Kaufman is abandoned ROW with the tracks long removed. Would it be cheaper to build light rail tracks and power, or build a new freight-type commuter rail line? But that's a topic for another discussion (which I'm trying mightily not to start just yet).

[texman]

Wasn't heavy rail the first proposel from DART in the mid 80s? It was a mix between lightrail and heavy rail but ran through a subway in downtown and never actually ran at grade with cars, just at crossings. I remember reading the anti transit folks were bitching about how it would cause more congestion or some baloney.
Here a photos from this site. Matches basically the system were building now except no connection to DFW.
http://dallasmetropolis.com/photos/ctmmap013.JPG
Intresting, only shows the North central line going up to plano parkway and not the parker road transit center.

[RobertB]

^^ What do the colors mean? Besides "ooh, pretty colors!", of course.

[freewaytincan]

So you can tell different lines from each other and the different times in which they would be built, I imagine.

[RobertB]

With Arlington voting 55% to 45% in favor of throwing gobs of money at Jerry Jones, the stadium with the hole in the roof will lose what little relevance it ever had to DART's N. Irving plans. While a station at the University of Dallas (not to be confused with UT-Dallas) might be nice, is there really a reason to do anything but head straight down Northwest Highway from Bachman Station?

That would bring the line right into the heart of the restaurant district -- though of course, figuring out where to site the station becomes a non-trivial task. I'd say put it near the AMC theater. AMC ought to donate some of their land for the station, because it'll let them convert some of their vast parking acreage into more retail/restaurant.

I'd work out a detailed map, but I strongly suspect that in this case, the folks at DART are way ahead of me. This is a line that's darn near ready to start moving dirt, especially with Victory Station coming on line this month. I wouldn't bet on me actually making it to the meeting (for various reasons, I never seem to go anywhere but work and home), so I'm hoping someone will report back to this board how it went.

[sogod]

While a station at the University of Dallas (not to be confused with UT-Dallas) might be nice, is there really a reason to do anything but head straight down Northwest Highway from Bachman Station?
Maybe, if you run the line down HW hwy then the relevance of a line through the Urban Center becomes suspect I think since it is out of the way (or the path to DFW) and south of NW hwy (mostly). And I think Irving really wants the line to go through the Urban Center.

[RobertB]

Just a quick note, more details later, but I wanted to throw this out before anyone goes to the meeting.

I had an appointment in Las Colinas this afternoon, so I drove over to the folks who run the Las Colinas People Mover -- the Dallas County Utility Reclamation District. It was clear that not many folks from the General Public stop by to say hi! When I walked in and asked the receptionist about any information about the DART LRT interface with the existing people mover system, she thought for a moment that I must be with DART!

An executive with the district was gracious enough to come out and talk with me a bit on the way to a meeting. He gave me a copy of DART's NW Corridor flyer, which I assume will be available at tonight's meeting, and answered some of my questions -- with some answers I hadn't expected. The executive said, and I quote, "There's no need to quote me," because the answers were all in the brochure. Well, they are... and they aren't.

* How does the Cowboys move to Arlington change the LRT plans?
"Not at all," I won't quote him as saying... but both the executive and the brochure note that the route through Las Colinas has been hammered out in detail. The City of Irving and the University of Dallas apparently found a way to convince TxDOT to rebuild SH 114 with transit as a part of the primary design -- something that likely required some serious political muscle. And the route through the Urban Center has already been determined to the Reclamation District's satisfaction as well.

* So if the meeting won't address the Cowboys issue, what will be discussed?
Location, Location, Location... station location, that is. Integrating the DART LRT with the existing People Mover system is a high priority -- in my opinion, it's what the People Mover system was missing in the first place. And the brochure notes that station location is a primary driver of public involvement in the process. Interestingly, the University of Dallas station's location has already been determined, "in order for TxDOT to be provided sufficient right-of-way". To me that implies that UofD got influence with TxDOT the old fashioned way: they bought it, with a large donation of free ROW.

Is that all? That depends entirely on who shows up, I'd think. DART doesn't appear to have publicized any particular agenda; their site (http://www.dart.org/publicmeetings.asp?ID=183) just says "The public meeting will provide an opportunity for official public input and help define any issues to be addressed during the Environmental Process." I suspect that DART considers the Las Colinas Urban Center routing to be a done deal, and may want to focus on the important (and tricky) issue of how LRT gets from there to D/FW. But if anyone feels that DART should take a second look, now that the Cowboys are out of the picture... well, this is probably your best chance to stand up and be counted.

Wish I could go, but I've got family matters to attend to. Someone report back on how it goes!

[RobertB]

Did anyone make it to the meeting?

By the way, DART has a new "Rail Expansion" map, dated 11/01/2004. Note that the station names are set for the Pleasant Grove and Carrollton/FB segments, but of course the Irving line is more amorphous. I've included the small version below, larger versions are available at the DART image library (http://www.dart.org/newsroommain.asp?zeon=imagelibrary#DARTMaps)

[freewaytincan]

Did anyone make it to the meeting?

By the way, DART has a new "Rail Expansion" map, dated 11/01/2004. Note that the station names are set for the Pleasant Grove and Carrollton/FB segments, but of course the Irving line is more amorphous. I've included the small version below, larger versions are available at the DART image library (http://www.dart.org/newsroommain.asp?zeon=imagelibrary#DARTMaps)

By "amorphous" you actually mean entirely undecided.

[drumguy8800]

Wow, look, they actually made a good-lookin, to-scale map! shocker.

[RobertB]

By "amorphous" you actually mean entirely undecided.
Well, not entirely. Note the path from Bachman Station to Irving Stadium, along the west side of SH 114, and then along Lake Carolyn. That's the part that appears to be set in stone, at least according to the Las Colinas folks.

Beyond that, though, you're quite right -- DART has already said that the path that goes north of 114 between the Urban Center and D/FW is the least preferred alternative, and is almost certain to be scrapped in favor of a more southerly alignment. I just wish I'd been able to attend and find out which way DART's leaning... and whether that route by the (empty) stadium is still a done deal.

[texman]

Ok, I don't understand this, why does DART refuse in their planning maps to include a stop at DFW's "13th station" on the NW line? Are they not planning on building it?

[RobertB]

Ok, I don't understand this, why does DART refuse in their planning maps to include a stop at DFW's "13th station" on the NW line? Are they not planning on building it?
I don't think that's the issue. Here's a quote from DART's brochure (referenced in my earlier message):

The Rail Planning and Implementation Study for DFW Airport identified a need for the line to serve a multi-modal facility at DFW Airport, referred to as the 13th Station. Three potential light rail access points to DFW Airport were identified by this study. These surface alignments are to the north, to the south or a tunnel alignment, which enters the central portion of the airport.
I think it's just that DART has no idea yet what path they'll take to D/FW from Las Colinas. So while the latest map includes a revised Las Colinas routing, the path after that is still the original "MIS Alignment" -- even though "Alternatives that mimicked the original MIS alignment by operating north of SH 114 were not rated as highly as the south and central alternatives."

So it's just a MIS-understanding based on an outdated MIS-alignment. :)

[texman]

I hope they don't enter from the south...It wouldnt make sense being so close to the TRE and all.

[freewaytincan]

I hope they don't enter from the south...It wouldnt make sense being so close to the TRE and all.

I quite agree. I know I've made that exact comment somewhere else on the forum at some point.

[RobertB]

I hope they don't enter from the south...It wouldnt make sense being so close to the TRE and all.
That's what I was thinking, too, but when you draw the lines on an actual map, it makes a bit more sense. It's a good two miles from the south end of the airport to Centreport Station, so it's not like you cross the TRE with the southern alignment.

On the other hand, DFW calls it an "intermodal" terminal for a reason -- they plan to run the heavy-rail line up to Station 13, IIRC. That would allow DFW to compete with Alliance as a plane-to-rail gateway -- letting the TRE use the line is just an added bonus. When that line is built, you'd have new freight and new LRT in the same ROW -- maybe that's a Good Thing.

More importantly to the users of the line, though, a station on the northern end of the airport might lead to a solution to the accursed Grapevine Funnel of SH 121, SH 114, and I-635. But there's a glitch: Grapevine isn't in DART. Until there's a way to put a station on the Grapevine side of the funnel, all you're doing is making it worse -- everyone has to go through the funnel to get to the station. And I think that's going to keep people from going to the station in the first place -- once you get past the funnel, you're home free by comparison.

I'm concerned that DART's planners are working under an edge-of-the-earth constraint -- the world ends at the Irving city limits for LRT purposes. Under that scenario, neither north nor south is a particularly good route, because both ways just lead to the Edge. But if you take Grapevine into account, north comes out ahead... especially when you extend the line to Grapevine Mills Mall.

[texman]

Dang, I wish DART had right of way already there, that line curves and twists so much. Also, is there a planned LRT station near the circle? Commuter rail or somthing seems good for that north-south line.

[texcolo]

I wish they could just bore a tunnel underneath the eastern set of runways.. to shorten the lenght of the line for a more direct connection to Las Colinas.

[RobertB]

I had the opportunity to visit the Victory Station LRT opening today, and DART's booth featured a number of the exhibits from this week's public meeting on the Irving-D/FW line. I wish I'd brought my camera, because there was a wonderfully detailed large-scale map of the entire project, from Bachman Station to D/FW. I spoke at length with DART's Community Affairs Representative, (I'll email him shortly to ask if I can mention his name here), and learned some great information about DART's plans for the line. As excited as we on this board may be, DART and Irving's civic leaders are even more ready to get to work.

My primary concern has been the Cowboys' move out of Irving Stadium. What's the point of running the line there, I asked, if there's nothing but a big, empty parking lot? The answer, it turns out, was simple: Irving needs a DART station near that site now more than ever. Jones' departure leaves a big swath of underdeveloped land right smack dab in the middle of the Metroplex, with existing freeway access and a plan to run light rail right through its heart. It's a massive Transit-Oriented Development waiting to happen! On top of that, both the University of Dallas and the large employers in the industrial area just northeast of the stadium are very excited about the rail line's arrival.

There's still the issue of providing service to the New Restaurant Row area at the I-35E/Loop 12 apex. But the geometry is difficult, with the river crossing posing a tricky balance of engineering and environmental concerns. But those issues could be overcome if the businesses there were clamoring for a station... unfortunately for them, though, I haven't heard that clamor. In my own opinion, if those business owners don't come together and make a solid proposal, they're going to find out that history repeats itself... as a New New Restaurant Row springs up around the old stadium TOD.

The Las Colinas segment's route is pretty well set, as previously noted. Texman, your question about a station at the Burlington Northern rail crossing was right on the money -- that's exactly what Irving and the Las Colinas folks are looking at. The ideal situation would be to find a way to site a station at the confluence of LRT, Commuter Rail on the BN, and the Las Colinas People Mover system. It hasn't come together yet, but we're still in the early phases -- it's been identified as a priority.

That takes us through Irving Phase 1: Downtown Dallas to Las Colinas. Now for Phase 2: Las Colinas to Belt Line.

As suggested in the newsletter I mentioned earlier, the north-of-114 route is no longer being considered. You can erase it from your maps, 'cause that's what DART's done -- it wasn't even highlighted on their large-scale area map. One down, two to go.

The two remaining options to Belt Line are a northern option in the SH 114 ROW, and a southern option roughly paralleling Walnut Hill. The northern SH 114 option looks good, especially from a ROW cost viewpoint, until you consider the coordination this requires -- TxDOT has plans to rebuild SH 114 southeast of 161, but it's not at all clear that TxDOT's timeline will match DART's. If they're not built together, it becomes more difficult to build the LRT at all.

So does the southern route have something working for it to offset the higher ROW cost? Yes, in spades: DCCCD's North Lake College. The school is located right smack dab in the middle of some of Irving's hottest real estate, surrounded by golf courses and upscale residential. Wonderful location, but zero expansion potential! The school is already so strapped for parking that DART can't hold their meeting there, according to the rep. But what if you didn't *have* to park? What if you had an aerial station right there at the school's front door? The DART rep said that DCCCD is set to give its official seal of approval to this routing as well. I think this is the way they'll go.

Either way, we end up at Belt Line Road at the end of Irving Phase 2. The only problem is, we're due east of the middle of the airport, where "Station 13" awaits. That's a whole message in itself -- I'm tired, so I'll post what I learned about Irving Phase 3 on Monday.

[texman]

Hey Robert, I went to the Victory thing too! Amazing plans and theres a station right next to my Dad's job if they go with the central north route...thought I would share..But did you see the plans for the trains? Adding those middle low-car sections to ALL the trains is awsome. I only thought it was going to be some. Also their building all the new stations with higher platform hieght to make them more ADA compliant plus redoing all of the current stations which will quite an undertaking.. The man (forgot his name but was an engineer for DART) was extremly helpful.

[drumguy8800]

Off-topic, but I hope any new trains have nicer interiors. I really don't like the pfewy interiors they use currently.. it feels like some.. mental hospital. I think the Houston LRTs have some pretty cool interiors. DART Exteriors are great though!

And, RobertB.. thanks for all the info. A line in the SH-114 ROW would be very nice.. and reconstruction of that road is desperately needed! (By the way, all signs from Irving to the I-35E confluence are Clearview! figured if you didn't know, now you do. also they added some clearview city-limit signs today off FM 664 (ovilla road) in northern ellis county.. dont know why i put that..)

[texman]

Off-topic, but I hope any new trains have nicer interiors. I really don't like the pfewy interiors they use currently.. it feels like some.. mental hospital. I think the Houston LRTs have some pretty cool interiors. DART Exteriors are great though!


Yeah, as I was sitting on the chair today my butt began to hurt, the chairs need better cushioning.

[Man of Leisure]

My primary concern has been the Cowboys' move out of Irving Stadium. What's the point of running the line there, I asked, if there's nothing but a big, empty parking lot? The answer, it turns out, was simple: Irving needs a DART station near that site now more than ever. Jones' departure leaves a big swath of underdeveloped land right smack dab in the middle of the Metroplex, with existing freeway access and a plan to run light rail right through its heart. It's a massive Transit-Oriented Development waiting to happen! On top of that, both the University of Dallas and the large employers in the industrial area just northeast of the stadium are very excited about the rail line's arrival.

http://www.kapowgifts.com/acatalog/simpsons-mr-burns.jpg

exxxcellent...

[texman]

http://www.kapowgifts.com/acatalog/simpsons-mr-burns.jpg

exxxcellent...

Haha, anyone remeber the simpsons episode where they built the monorail?

[Mballar]

I had the opportunity to visit the Victory Station LRT opening today, and DART's booth featured a number of the exhibits from this week's public meeting on the Irving-D/FW line. I wish I'd brought my camera, because there was a wonderfully detailed large-scale map of the entire project, from Bachman Station to D/FW. I spoke at length with DART's Community Affairs Representative, (I'll email him shortly to ask if I can mention his name here), and learned some great information about DART's plans for the line. As excited as we on this board may be, DART and Irving's civic leaders are even more ready to get to work.

I thnk that those who want to view this info can go to this link:


http://www.dart.org/NWPublicMeeting111004.pdf

[RobertB]

I thnk that those who want to view this info can go to this link:


http://www.dart.org/NWPublicMeeting111004.pdf
Thanks for the link -- the DART rep at the Victory party said that they'd put their powerpoint presentation on the 'net soon. The file gives the details of what the rep talked to me about -- it's essential reading for anyone interested.

It really presents the case for the southern alignment for Phase 2, serving North Lake College. Not only is the ridership expected to be huge (though heavily tilted toward students), but this route through the heart of the upscale area has the lowest ROW aquisition cost! How is that possible? It turns out that the Reclamation District (the folks who run the People Mover) preserved ROW for a future connection to D/FW. In the image below, the section of blue line between SH 114 and the red/green dashed alternative is the DCURD-preserved ROW.

The case for the "central" alignment along SH 114 is made by the numbers that show high numbers of workers within 1/2 mile of the potential station location. But ROW is difficult, the geometry is complex, and coordination with TxDOT's reconstruction plans is uncertain... and add to that the fact that folks in suits tend to shy away from half-mile walks. The students at North Lake (and UofD), on the other hand, are being delivered to a single concentrated destination. Put it all together, and you see why DART's "staff recommendations" are:

* Eliminate North Alternatives (the north-of-114 plans that nobody liked)

* Advance South Alternatives

* Central Alternatives to be Set Aside

There's still Phase 3 -- how to get to the airport -- but like DART, I'll save that for later... I've got a deadline to meet at work that doesn't have anything to do with planning rail expansion!

[freewaytincan]

It really presents the case for the southern alignment for Phase 2, serving North Lake College.

Which one is that? Isn't it a community college?




...I've got a deadline to meet at work that doesn't have anything to do with planning rail expansion!

Oh man. Glad I'm not the only one with such a problem

[RobertB]

Which one is that? Isn't it a community college?
Part of the DCCCD (http://www.dcccd.edu/): http://www.northlakecollege.edu/

[texman]

Im really really hoping they don't go with south routing. It just seems stupid being close to the TRE and also if you have TRE and DART runing in from the south that cancels out all future plans for High speed rail (to houston, san antonio) because of the used up right of way. My hope is they'll go with the ROW that Irving set aside for them a long time ago and then with the northern. I think thats "Central to north", but I may be wrong.

[freewaytincan]

Im really really hoping they don't go with south routing. It just seems stupid being close to the TRE and also if you have TRE and DART runing in from the south that cancels out all future plans for High speed rail (to houston, san antonio) because of the used up right of way. My hope is they'll go with the ROW that Irving set aside for them a long time ago and then with the northern. I think thats "Central to north", but I may be wrong.

I know, I feel the same way, pretty much, as has been discussed elsewhere at different times.

[RobertB]

Im really really hoping they don't go with south routing. It just seems stupid being close to the TRE and also if you have TRE and DART runing in from the south that cancels out all future plans for High speed rail (to houston, san antonio) because of the used up right of way. My hope is they'll go with the ROW that Irving set aside for them a long time ago and then with the northern. I think thats "Central to north", but I may be wrong.
I see your point, but I think the south routing still comes out on top.

* It's not really all that close to the TRE. At its closest point, the LRT line will be two miles north of the TRE line. Besides, I could even make a case for running the LRT right down to Centreport Station -- the TRE is the express to downtown, and the light rail is the "local" line.

* Even if there's the political gumption to build high-speed rail between Dallas, FW, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio in the next 25 years, it won't go to DFW Airport. At least not if Southwest Airlines has anything to say about it. SWA is against the idea to begin with, and running it to the big airport would pose an even more direct threat.

* If high-speed rail does become a reality, and it does include DFW Airport, the ROW within the airport grounds will be the easiest to acquire, even if commuter rail doesn't make it in for some reason. It's the ROW outside the airport that's going to be the most difficult hurdle.

* The north routing conflicts directly with DFW's taxiway expansion plans. I've attached the images from the public meeting .pdf. There just aren't any good options for fitting 126' of infrastructure into a 60' ROW.

* And as I've suggested before, the north routing won't help the congestion in the area. All the station locations would be after the "funnel", so there will be no perceived advantage to rail vs. car. The only way to use rail to help the congestion is to put a station on the other side of the funnel -- and the geometry for that solution is actually better if you come through the airport from the south (see the third attached pic).

It's counterintuitive, sure. DART's original MIS was for a north alternative. But the facts on the ground indicate that south is the way to go.

[freewaytincan]

Well, it's not as if they can't do it someday anyway. Eventually, I'm sure the opportunity will still be there, it will just be a long time.

[texman]

I see your point, but I think the south routing still comes out on top.

* It's not really all that close to the TRE. At its closest point, the LRT line will be two miles north of the TRE line. Besides, I could even make a case for running the LRT right down to Centreport Station -- the TRE is the express to downtown, and the light rail is the "local" line.

* Even if there's the political gumption to build high-speed rail between Dallas, FW, Houston, Austin, and San Antonio in the next 25 years, it won't go to DFW Airport. At least not if Southwest Airlines has anything to say about it. SWA is against the idea to begin with, and running it to the big airport would pose an even more direct threat.

* If high-speed rail does become a reality, and it does include DFW Airport, the ROW within the airport grounds will be the easiest to acquire, even if commuter rail doesn't make it in for some reason. It's the ROW outside the airport that's going to be the most difficult hurdle.

* The north routing conflicts directly with DFW's taxiway expansion plans. I've attached the images from the public meeting .pdf. There just aren't any good options for fitting 126' of infrastructure into a 60' ROW.

* And as I've suggested before, the north routing won't help the congestion in the area. All the station locations would be after the "funnel", so there will be no perceived advantage to rail vs. car. The only way to use rail to help the congestion is to put a station on the other side of the funnel -- and the geometry for that solution is actually better if you come through the airport from the south (see the third attached pic).

It's counterintuitive, sure. DART's original MIS was for a north alternative. But the facts on the ground indicate that south is the way to go.

Im sorry, I have to disagree with you. If it pararallels 114, of course it will take traffic off of it. And arnt there plans already to rebuild the "funnel" to relieve traffic? And also I'm sure some type of plan can be worked out with the taxiway expansions plans and the ROW. DART and DFW airport are buddies. Now about the High speed rail, I'm it will become a reality in our lifetime and all the current plans, TTC (according to the guy at the meeting), NCTCOG, and THSRTC all have it running straight to the airport through Arlington. Now discussions of SW and the opposition to high speed rail is for another thread but I do know that AA has publically said they supported a future high speed rail service to DFW (possibly to compete with SW?)

[RobertB]

Now discussions of SW and the opposition to high speed rail is for another thread but I do know that AA has publically said they supported a future high speed rail service to DFW (possibly to compete with SW?)
In the Wright Amendment discussion (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3090), it's been pointed out that AA makes money on their long-haul foreign flights, but that they lose their shirt to SWA & co. on the short-haul flights. So AA has good reason to push for high-speed rail directly from DFW to Houston/Austin/San Antonio, and even Shreveport/OKC/Tulsa. Of course, SWA & co. have just as much reason to fear such a plan, and for the same reason that AA likes it.

I hadn't thought about how well high-speed rail would benefit the long-haul carriers. So maybe it will happen... but it still doesn't change my position on the routing for the LRT, because I don't think the LRT will interfere with either commuter rail or high-speed rail into the airport. DART and DFW disagree on which side of the International Parkway to put LRT on, but I think that DART will agree to put LRT on the east side so that DFW can reserve the west side for commuter rail and/or high-speed rail -- marked on the map below (from the DART presentation) as "preservation of corridor".

[texman]

Haha, I don't think were gonna change eachother opinions, were to stubborn.

[freewaytincan]

Haha, I don't think were gonna change eachother opinions, were to stubborn.

Whatever gave you that idea?

[RobertB]

Haha, I don't think were gonna change each other opinions, were to stubborn.
I was about to say that you're right about that... but that would be giving up too easily. :D

[texman]

I was about to say that you're right about that... but that would be giving up too easily. :D

Well, w/e happens it will benefit DFW as a whole.

[RobertB]

Looking at the DART flyer prepared in advance of the November meeting, it's clear that the city of Irving also had the northern routing in mind when they developed their priorities. Here's the text, transcribed manually (any errors are likely introduced by myself):


Early in the development of this project three overarching goals were established by the Irving City Council:

* Serve Existing Residents and Businesses - The LRT line will give Irving access to the entire DART service area. These opportunities must extend to those who have supported the DART vision from the beginning.

* Provide a viable alternative to SH 114 - Demand on this facility during peak traffic periods is significant. Roughly parallel to SH 114, the new rail line offers commuters a reliable alternative to driving.

* Encourage future development - The area adjacent to the rail stations provides opportunities for land uses oriented to the uniqueness of LRT. Mixed-use development (retail, office, residential) increases density, strengthens the City's property base and encourages development that minimizes overload of the roadway infrastructure.
So how well do the north and south alternatives address the city's expressed goals?

The first point mentions "those who have supported the vision". I think this is a reference to the Las Colinas and UofD folks. Their segment of the line is pretty well set. DCCCD has also been a long-time DART supporter -- the south route serving North Lake College would seem to be a fair return on investment. But DART can still go south-to-north, so North Lake isn't incompatible with a northern approach to DFW. Are there business groups along the northern route who have been working toward this goal, and who might feel that their efforts have been for nought?

The second point is a tough one. The south route no longer provides that SH 114 alternative -- the first park-and-ride will likely be in Las Colinas, where the additional side street traffic wouldn't be helpful. The north route would be better from that viewpoint, though it appears that the most distant stations would be almost exclusively park-and-ride. Don't forget the controversy over the Grayson County commuters on the Red Line -- the northern park-and-ride station would be used largely by people from outside the DART service area. That's a political hot potato, especially when sales tax revenues within the area slip as they have recently. I think we need to get Grapevine on board in some fashion before taking on all their Dallas-bound traffic... but even then, you can still get to Grapevine via the south route.

Encouraging future development is another tricky issue. The north routing, along SH 114, could spark the sort of mixed car-transit development like at Mockingbird Station. The south routing doesn't parallel existing freeways, so it would depend on a more truly transit-oriented TOD concept, with a lot of new development at the corner of SH 161 and Belt Line. We're talking about largely open space in either location, so Irving would have to weigh the alternatives. I lean toward the one that creates a new urban center (south) over the one that draws even more vehicles onto SH 114 (north).

As much as I'm trying to give north its due, I still think DART's making the right choice to go with the southern routing, with the northern routing as the "alternative" it's compared against. But it's clearly not a slam dunk -- the north route has its good points, and is due a fair consideration.