Oak Cliff: Wonderview

[Kelley USA]

New Development by Mark Cuban... From Unfair Park...

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/04/as_far_as_names_go_wonderview.php

[eirin]

Wow, if this happens - It looks pretty sweet.

[quietthings]

Hmm...good on him for going south of the river. Who knows if it will happen though.

[Uptown72]

Much as I applaud him for doing something like this, it's going to be tough going. Cuban doesn't do real estate, unless its part of charity or foundation. The DMN article that came out today is a good start. Good luck.

[Dbadger]

Quite impressive.
I think a project like this will do more good for the sothern sector of downtown and the Cedars more than project in actually located in those districts.
It is important to provide a reason for people to use Dart past Convention Center.
There are a lot of areas that are equidistant from downtown as University Park and Lakewood are, but happen to be south (or east).
It will take some time, decades, but downtown needs to be truly the city center and not the sothern edge.

[RobertB]

As much as I'd like to see more southern-sector investment, I'm leery of extending the TOD TIF so far from the Transit that the Development is supposed to be Oriented towards. That makes it look more like a grab for easy taxpayer dollars, than like an actual plan to develop a forgotten area. Unless Cuban is planning to build his own private streetcar line, like the old Tandy Center subway.

[dfwcre8tive]

Leaders, neighbors praise Mark Cuban's planned development in southern Dallas
09:52 PM CDT on Wednesday, April 14, 2010
By ROY APPLETON and RUDOLPH BUSH / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/041510dnmetcuban.3a0b5dd.html

Words of hope and support greeted the news Wednesday that Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban wants to develop 176 acres, including a former dumping ground, in east Oak Cliff.

Pieces of brick and slabs of concrete help define the rolling terrain near Kiest Boulevard and Southerland Avenue. The towers of downtown stand out, as does the deep blue of a small lake, at the site where Cuban proposes to build his Wonderview project of homes, retail, offices and sports fields and facilities.

On Wednesday, the Dallas City Council praised the proposed investment in Oak Cliff and agreed to expand a tax subsidy district to provide funds for the project's public improvements.

Mayor Tom Leppert said the development represents a shift for the area with "investors who are recognizable" making big moves in southern Dallas.

After the meeting, Mayor Pro Tem Dwaine Caraway said he expects Cuban's plans will draw other developers' attention.

"Just the thought of him wanting to come is a great thing. When he comes, think of the other investors, grocery stores, things like that. They know he's smart. They'll ask, 'What does he know that we don't?' " Caraway said.

When the project might begin is unclear. But Joe Cavagnaro, director of real estate, told the council a 10-year build-out is planned.

The project will begin with environmental cleanup and construction of ball fields, and apartments, townhomes, retail and offices will follow, he said. Plans include 2,600 residential units for middle-to upper-middle-class tenants.

Cavagnaro said the development will include medical offices, some for orthopedic doctors who would care for Mavericks players.

There have been talks with Parkland Memorial Hospital representatives about opening a health clinic at the site, he said.

Cuban has not decided whether to move the Mavericks' headquarters to the site, said Cavagnaro and Charlie McKinney, Cuban's financial adviser.

He began assembling the property about four years ago as a real estate investment and looked at a number of areas before settling on the east Oak Cliff site, Cavagnaro said.

"The idea was 200 contiguous acres that close to downtown Dallas had to be worth something to somebody some day," McKinney said.

"Believe it or not, it was the views and proximity to downtown and the rail lines," Cavagnaro said. The site is about five miles from downtown and a mile from the Illinois stop on DART's Blue Line.

He stressed that Cuban is interested in helping build up southern Dallas, but also believes the area is a good investment.

"We're here to bring development in general and hopefully spur development in the southern sector, but we are certainly looking over time for a return," he said.

...

[tamtagon]

April 14, 2010
By ROY APPLETON and RUDOLPH BUSH / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/041510dnmetcuban.3a0b5dd.html

... Mayor Tom Leppert said the development represents a shift for the area with "investors who are recognizable" making big moves in southern Dallas.
------- I love T-Lep because he's so Ewing.

... After the meeting, Mayor Pro Tem Dwaine Caraway (asked) 'What does he know that we don't?'

... Plans include 2,600 residential units for middle-to upper-middle-class tenants.

... There have been talks with Parkland Memorial Hospital representatives about opening a health clinic at the site, he said.

Cuban has not decided whether to move the Mavericks' headquarters to the site, said Cavagnaro and Charlie McKinney, Cuban's financial adviser.
------- I know: The West End Marketplace and a Mavericks Sports bar in Dallas Alley.

... "The idea was 200 contiguous acres that close to downtown Dallas had to be worth something to somebody some day," McKinney said.

All the property with a view of the Trinity Forest will increase in value. The article said the acreage is on a 10 year build out schedule, that's a long time.

[TheMapman]

I don't have much more to say about this right now, other than I think it is the single most important development announcement in Dallas since Victory Park. A guy like Cuban can create a radical shift in attitudes overnight, and he's got the profile and power and balls to not put up with any crap from southern Dallas "leaders".


As much as I'd like to see more southern-sector investment, I'm leery of extending the TOD TIF so far from the Transit that the Development is supposed to be Oriented towards. That makes it look more like a grab for easy taxpayer dollars, than like an actual plan to develop a forgotten area. Unless Cuban is planning to build his own private streetcar line, like the old Tandy Center subway.

The COG is working on a study for a commuter rail line on the BNSF line to the east of the site. The line would extend from Union Station to Waxahachie.

[CasperITL]

Not Oak Cliff. Its South Dallas.

Literally 4 minute drive on I-45 to Downtown.

Hope the city politics stays out of this. The last couple developments cost the taxpayers millions in criminal court prosecutions alone!

I do not see anything in the "Trinity Forest" increasing in value since all of it is within the flood plain on the west side of the river. Nor do I see much happening to some of the neighborhoods to the east, which have been isolated from the rest of Dallas for over 100 years by a railyard.

[RobertB]

The COG is working on a study for a commuter rail line on the BNSF line to the east of the site. The line would extend from Union Station to Waxahachie.
It would be a BIG stretch to say that anything Cuban has planned for the next 10 years -- or maybe even the next 50 years -- would have anything to do with TOD for a commuter line to Waxahachie. That would be like the Mavs drafting Tiny Tim, in the hopes that some time on the rack will turn him into a 7-foot forward.

[dfwcre8tive]

The plan in context
http://www.carfreeinbigd.com/2010/04/maverick-feels-need-for-speed-and-new.html

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_D5kx0bUGx_c/S8YEvwXVhAI/AAAAAAAACQk/6UGOWUY_r7w/s1600/wonderview+plan.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D5kx0bUGx_c/S8YEo547ZTI/AAAAAAAACQc/DXGJY7Aiers/s1600/plan+on+aerial.jpg

[dfwcre8tive]

It would be a BIG stretch to say that anything Cuban has planned for the next 10 years -- or maybe even the next 50 years -- would have anything to do with TOD for a commuter line to Waxahachie. That would be like the Mavs drafting Tiny Tim, in the hopes that some time on the rack will turn him into a 7-foot forward.

Yes, but this site would be an excellent location for a station along the route, whenever it comes along. The land behind the DART bus facility and adjacent to block 7 on the site plan would make for a good location. This line currently has better ridership projections than a connection to Frisco.

http://www.nctcog.org/trans/spd/transitrail/sdallas/index.asp

[Mballar]

The elevations in that part of Oak Cliff are crazy. If I understand correctly where this proposed project will be located, it should have a number of elevations as well. That land sits high above the Trinity River basin below.

[Mballar]

Not Oak Cliff. Its South Dallas.
It's definitely in what traditionally has been referred to as Oak Cliff. . .separated from "South Dallas" to the East by I45 and the north east by the Trinity River.

[dfwcre8tive]

According to this interesting 1973 map, which shows the change in elevation, the land used to be a strip mine...

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/texas/txu-pclmaps-topo-tx-oak_cliff-1973.jpg

Maps from other dates: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/texas/o.html

[downtownguy25]

Right next to the water treatment plants... going to smell great during the summer...

[CasperITL]

According to this interesting 1973 map, which shows the change in elevation, the land used to be a strip mine...

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/texas/txu-pclmaps-topo-tx-oak_cliff-1973.jpg

Maps from other dates: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/topo/texas/o.html

I think it was an illegal landfill for a time too. On one trip down to the Trinity Forest, I went through that site, looked like a capped landfill to me.

Much of that area was mined for soil, then used as a landfill. I believe the land used for Wonderview, was deposited to build up levees in Rochester Park.

The land there is very flat. One must go west a few more blocks to get into some elevation change.

Never, ever, in the recorded history of Dallas, has this area ever been called Oak Cliff. Sorry, just not a part of Oak Cliff. South Dallas, yes. Oak Cliff, no.

[Columbus Civil]

Actually the northern tip of it is part of Lake Highlands.

[dfwcre8tive]

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/04/two_days_ago_we_didnt_know_not.php

http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e5/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685574.87.jpg

http://media.dallasobserver.com/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685574.87.jpg

[IMG]http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e5/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685575.87.jpg

http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e5/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685573.87.jpg

http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e5/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685576.87.jpg

http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e5/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685577.87.jpg

http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e5/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685578.87.jpg

http://vvoice.vo.llnwd.net/e5/wonderful-wonderview-proposed-development-plans.4685580.87.jpg

[UrbanHope]

Not Oak Cliff. Its South Dallas.



Please learn the borders of South Dallas. It's Oak Cliff. It's a half block from Cedar Crest.




Hope the city politics stays out of this. The last couple developments cost the taxpayers millions in criminal court prosecutions alone!

I do not see anything in the "Trinity Forest" increasing in value since all of it is within the flood plain on the west side of the river. Nor do I see much happening to some of the neighborhoods to the east, which have been isolated from the rest of Dallas for over 100 years by a railyard.

Thanks for the hot sports opinion; well do everyone a favor and never visit. With your ignorant comments, we'll be just fine without ya.

[Columbus Civil]

It is not within the original 1890 boundaries of Oak Cliff. Who cares, though. Everything south of Mockingbird is Oak Cliff to me.

[CasperITL]

Please learn the borders of South Dallas. It's Oak Cliff. It's a half block from Cedar Crest.

Thanks for the hot sports opinion; well do everyone a favor and never visit. With your ignorant comments, we'll be just fine without ya.

Never, ever, ever, ever been a part of Oak Cliff. Ever. Never. Not once has that ever been considered part of Oak Cliff by Dallasites, ever. It's closer to Fair Park than Kidd Springs Park.

Even in the most extreme example of areas claiming to be Oak Cliff, has anyone ever lumped that section of town in as part of Oak Cliff.

You even know anything about the history of that area? It was ignored by Dallas and faced many issues with sanitation, sewage and electrification.

Old timers called it Fruitdale. You need to stop calling everything south of the Trinity, Oak Cliff. Makes you look uneducated and naive.

But since the uppity progressives here want to relabel everything in their own stupid way, have at it!

I'll just call it Lake Highlands from now on too!

[TheMapman]

How about Cedar Crest? Or Cadillac Heights?

Most people consider it part of Oak Cliff. The Oak Cliff Chamber of Commerce does. It's definitely not South Dallas, I don't care how close it is to Fair Park.

The overlooked part of this, by everyone, is the office space and the relocation of Cuban's companies to the site. 300-500K of office would be near a 25% increase in non-medical office space in Southern Dallas.

[franki frank]

What a wasted of money have you ever drove towards south Dallas well about a year ago or two they build theses Town homes and a recreation center across the street well anyways they look like monkey shit broken boards doors kick in broken windows graffti on the walls crack heads all over the place there is a car wash down the street every night about 5o cars park there they drink up all nite sell dope get high and i never see the Dallas police do anything they dont care man them people don't care about shit plus Mark Cuban making a big mistake i love the guy but stick to sports i was born and raise in the Pleasant Grove same stuff in that part you can clean the area up all you want and bring in redevelopment but you can't change the people who live there half the people in those area's ain't even educated Just cause the land is cheap and u going to get a tax break it's going end up costing Cuban on the long run Who care if this project is bye the Great Trinity Forest..............The city of Dallas can't even start this fuckin project i voted in 1998 for the bonds package the Margaret Hunt Hill Bridge took forever to get started plus alot that money for that project private donations we always talking about how the southern part of Dallas "NEEDS " redevelopment why not bring in big corporate companies like Garland Grand P and Arlington there is plenty of land plus so close the Dallas hub and about four major highways Imagine the jobs it will bring to thoses area maybe them kids out there can get a education and not worry about how there parents are going to pay the bills or put food on the tabel im who cares about if they going to put Mavericks Head Quaters there people have better stuff to worry about this project Cuban wants to build should be close to southern downtown close to the new hotel thats just my opinion.............Frankie Frank!:2okey:

[CasperITL]

How about Cedar Crest? Or Cadillac Heights?

Most people consider it part of Oak Cliff. The Oak Cliff Chamber of Commerce does. It's definitely not South Dallas, I don't care how close it is to Fair Park.

The overlooked part of this, by everyone, is the office space and the relocation of Cuban's companies to the site. 300-500K of office would be near a 25% increase in non-medical office space in Southern Dallas.

Fruitdale incorporated itself in the 1930s to avoid annexation by Dallas. It was not until the mid 1960s that they were finally annexed by Dallas. How can one consider that Oak Cliff when it was its own town?

Much of the name confusion of late is a result of money hungry politicians and outliers who try and take personal credit for EVERYTHING positive that happens south of the Trinity. Hopefully alot of the Southern Sector politicians will be given the cold shoulder on this project and told to beat it.

[tamtagon]

Much of the name confusion of late is a result of money hungry politicians and outliers who try and take personal credit for EVERYTHING positive that happens south of the Trinity. Hopefully alot of the Southern Sector politicians will be given the cold shoulder on this project and told to beat it.

Amazing that the previous regime will be in jail for, like, a decade.

[vman]

Hey mods!!! Could we merge the "What are the Oak Cliff boundaries, Lomac boundaries, and downtown boundaries" into one thread??? LOL

[AeroD]

Hey mods!!! Could we merge the "What are the Oak Cliff boundaries, Lomac boundaries, and downtown boundaries" into one thread??? LOL

Here in the Great County of Collin, anything south of 190 is South Dallas.

[larchlion]

All of the bickering about whether it is in this part of town or that part of town really underscores the need for investment South of the Dallas equator (I-30). The various neighborhoods lack definition and unique, distinguishable identity. Hopefully, we have learned enough through our experimentations in urbanism on the North side to actually get more right as investment seeks opportunity for qualitative improvement in the Southern half. It can be less about delivering product and more about building connectivity, creating jobs, sustainable urbanism, walkability, and community.

As for the newly released renderings, I like the skins and vertical scale of the buildings in the conceptual renderings. While the masterplan passes the eyeball test at first glance it doesn't hold up under closer scrutiny.

After visiting it in person the other day and with the conceptual masterplan still in my head, I was amazed how big the site was. When I got home, I double-checked scale of the buildings/blocks in the plan. Somebody was either drawing at the wrong scale or has never drawn realizable masterplans before. If and when they get their TOD TIF expansion, hopefully the entire area is rethought with some critical strategic thinking.

Here is to hoping that it was just a quick and dirty exercise to put some flashy drawings up and sell the vision in order to extend the TIF boundary. Also, now that I think about it. The TIF is a little bit more complicated than "taxpayer $." If nothing happens there is no taxpayer money on the hook. The developer fronts the infrastructural investment and then gets paid back by the taxes generated on their own improvements to the property, aka the increment of difference between existing and eventual.

As I alluded to in my post on the Wonderview property/project here (http://www.carfreeinbigd.com/2010/04/maverick-feels-need-for-speed-and-new.html) , all TIFs should be anchored to TOD as somebody mentioned above, which ensures a certain stability and anchoring of investment to an area. Aside from being near the Illinois station, it is along a rail corridor that is being studied for commuter rail (will they push for a station? The masterplan would have to again change to accommodate), there is opportunity for a circulator with Illinois station, and MLK/Cedar Crest/Kiest makes for an ideal future streetcar line IMO, linking Fair Park, the Trinity, and South Dallas/Oak Cliff/anonymous-area-that-we-aren't-sure-what-to-call-it-yet.

(Rename the entire road section to MLK while we're at it - unless Kiest has some historical significance that I am unaware.)

[UrbanHope]

One more thing on why it's important to have the correct info regarding where developments, etc are located. The reason that I continually correct people on where Oak Cliff/South Dallas/etc is located is more for people who are not based in Dallas that may come across this Forum. They include out-of-town investors and others, some of whom have mentioned this forum as a reference point as we discuss various developments.

btw, most of the area that in which Fruitdale was located is now called Joppa, the rest is down by Ledbetter & 45. This info comes from people that taught me when I began serving the council district and have lived there for decades. Moving on...




(Rename the entire road section to MLK while we're at it - unless Kiest has some historical significance that I am unaware.)

pleeeease don't give us any more work on street renaming. I've taken enough beatings over street name changes to last a lifetime. Kiest is going to stay Kiest my friend (Kiest is an historic name within the history of Dallas).

I'm fine with the area being in a TIF. The group still has a ton of environmental work to do, and if the TIF helps them lay some of the needed infrastructure, so be it.

This is one of two major projects that are moving forward on the east side of Oak Cliff. The other is diagonally across from the 8th & Corinth station where quality senior living, retail, and market-rate housing will be built over the next few years with views of downtown.

[UrbanHope]

larchlion you're right with respect to the operation of TIFs. The property taxes paid stay within the TIF area for a predetermined number of years, vs going into the entire city budget.

[UrbanHope]

How about Cedar Crest? Or Cadillac Heights?

Most people consider it part of Oak Cliff. The Oak Cliff Chamber of Commerce does. It's definitely not South Dallas, I don't care how close it is to Fair Park.




Cedar Crest and Cadillac Heights are neighborhoods inside Oak Cliff. and as you say it's most def not South Dallas the borders of which stop at the MLK/Cedar Crest bridge.

[el Zilcho]

All of the bickering about whether it is in this part of town or that part of town really underscores the need for investment South of the Dallas equator (I-30). The various neighborhoods lack definition and unique, distinguishable identity.
no, they really don't, except to people who lump them all together as oak cliff or south dallas

and if the investment is the investment typical of certain northern portions of Dallas it would probably do more to destroy any unique character the neighborhood has anyway.

not trying to be too negative, but what a lot of areas "lack" south of 30 is really a matter of perspective.

[eirin]

Maybe this thread should start talking about the project and not the area in which it is located. Call it whatever you want to call it.
Seeing people banter back and forth on whether it's Oak Cliff, South Dallas, or any other neighborhood, previous city, or town it may or may not be is really annoying, and every time I come back here looking for some news about it, all I see is that. So mods, hopefully we can get this thread back on track?

[LH_Newbie]

larchlion you're right with respect to the operation of TIFs. The property taxes paid stay within the TIF area for a predetermined number of years, vs going into the entire city budget.
Slightly more correct: The INCREMENTAL property taxes paid stay within the TIF area for a predetermined number of years... a very important distinction - it's not all property taxes that go to the TIF, it's only the increased taxes from the baseline that was the pre-development property tax base.

[UrbanHope]

Slightly more correct: The INCREMENTAL property taxes paid stay within the TIF area for a predetermined number of years... a very important distinction - it's not all property taxes that go to the TIF, it's only the increased taxes from the baseline that was the pre-development property tax base.

that's what I meant to type...hence the term T.Big I.F good pickup

[hotrod]

That area of Cedar Crest is Oak Cliff. You have to cross the Cedar Crest bridge to go into South Dallas. South Dallas is wet while Oak Cliff is dry. You can't buy any spirits in the Cedar Crest area.

[xen0blue]

oak cliff is in south dallas. end of discussion.

[metrosteve]

Who gives a shit!

[GennadyB]

Right next to the water treatment plants... going to smell great during the summer...

Technically, it’s DWU’s Central Wastewater Treatment Plant. This facility actually only treats the liquid stream and sends all the solids to the Southside WWTP for processing. It also has a number of odor mitigation processes employed that contain foul air emissions to a minimum. Ironically, the rendering plant just to the north emits far more foul odors than the WWTP, but nobody seems to point them out.

Either way. I’ve been to that area many times, and don’t see why anybody would want to develop or live there.

[lakewoodhobo]

Zoning approved for Wonderview:

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/04/dallas-council-approves-zoning.html




Dallas council approves zoning for Mark Cuban's Wonderview

The Dallas council took the second step today toward clearing the way for Mark Cuban to develop 200 acres in East Oak Cliff.

The council unanimously approved zoning for Cuban's Wonderview project moments ago.

[txdore]

Actually the northern tip of it is part of Lake Highlands.

lol

[carousel]

Zoning approved for Wonderview:

http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/04/dallas-council-approves-zoning.html

any mention of when construction would start (if it starts)?

[Uptown72]

A zoning approval would make no mention of construction start. Matter of fact, zoning approvals signify the start of the feasibility period these days. Then we wait about 5 years before even pursuing a construction loan. Then we wait another 5 years before we actually get a construction loan commitment. Then the real estate cycle hits the skids and the timeline starts all over. If this deal were to work, it would have to be on I-35, on the rail line and would have to be the coolest thing since Al Gore's invention of the internet. It ain't. Cuban is smart. This is no more than a $20 million investment on his part to make an equity multiple far in excess of 5x, maybe 10x. If that doesn't pencil out, he's out. BTW...I don't know Cuban...it's all just speculazation, 'cause I got smarts real good.

[AeroD]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong - Didn't Cuban buy quite a bit of land in the Cedars several years ago? If so, does he still own that land?

[UrbanHope]

A zoning approval would make no mention of construction start. Matter of fact, zoning approvals signify the start of the feasibility period these days. Then we wait about 5 years before even pursuing a construction loan. Then we wait another 5 years before we actually get a construction loan commitment. Then the real estate cycle hits the skids and the timeline starts all over. If this deal were to work, it would have to be on I-35, on the rail line and would have to be the coolest thing since Al Gore's invention of the internet. It ain't. Cuban is smart. This is no more than a $20 million investment on his part to make an equity multiple far in excess of 5x, maybe 10x. If that doesn't pencil out, he's out. BTW...I don't know Cuban...it's all just speculazation, 'cause I got smarts real good.

actually, zoning approvals can make mention of a construction start. when we finally approved the St Regis site, it included a required construction date. However, it is very rare. And he's breaking ground in the next year (using his own money)

[TheMapman]

A zoning approval would make no mention of construction start. Matter of fact, zoning approvals signify the start of the feasibility period these days. Then we wait about 5 years before even pursuing a construction loan. Then we wait another 5 years before we actually get a construction loan commitment. Then the real estate cycle hits the skids and the timeline starts all over. If this deal were to work, it would have to be on I-35, on the rail line and would have to be the coolest thing since Al Gore's invention of the internet. It ain't. Cuban is smart. This is no more than a $20 million investment on his part to make an equity multiple far in excess of 5x, maybe 10x. If that doesn't pencil out, he's out. BTW...I don't know Cuban...it's all just speculazation, 'cause I got smarts real good.

Wow, by that logic nothing has been built in Dallas in forever. *shakes head*

[mjblazin]

Somebody correct me if I am wrong - Didn't Cuban buy quite a bit of land in the Cedars several years ago? If so, does he still own that land?

I thought he owned the land S of Cadiz and E of Lamar down to the construction area across from entertainment complex.

[lakewoodhobo]

Cuban's Wonderview project to break ground June 1


http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2010/05/10/daily63.html