Southlake Town Square Expansion

[psukhu]

Posted on Wed, Oct. 06, 2004
Southlake OKs planned Town Square expansion
By Sarah Bahari - Star-Telegram Staff Writer
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/local/states/texas/northeast/9848559.htm

SOUTHLAKE - The City Council on Tuesday approved plans for a $50 million addition to Town Square. The addition is expected to include a 250-room hotel, a 14-screen movie theater, a bookstore, two parking garages, more restaurants and additional office and retail space. "It's a beautiful project," Mayor Andy Wambsganss said. Much of Tuesday's discussion focused on the appearance of the parking garages and the movie theater. The council will review those before construction begins.

Council members said they wanted to make sure that the parking garages would be safe and well-screened from public view. They objected to the movie theater's modern design, saying it did not fit in with the rest of Town Square's "new urbanist" mix of shops, offices and restaurants patterned after a 1930s town. The 39-acre Grand Avenue phase of the development will be northeast of Town Hall and extend to Texas 114. The addition is expected to generate $4.4 million annually in tax revenue. The project's financing is expected to be decided in the next couple of weeks.

Town Square developer Cooper & Stebbins asked the city to provide $15 million -- about $5 million more than originally expected -- in public improvements for the Grand Avenue addition. Tax revenue generated by Town Square -- and not property taxes collected from residents -- would fund those improvements.

[freewaytincan]

I have yet to get out there. Perhaps I will next time I'm up in Dallas, which may not be until late October or even Thanksgiving.

[Geaux Tigers]

I have yet to get out there. Perhaps I will next time I'm up in Dallas, which may not be until late October or even Thanksgiving.
I'm fortunate enough to live only about 10 minutes from Southlake Towne Square. I can't wait until they start on these brownstones!! My wife and I go over there all the time...especially to Mi Cocina!

[freewaytincan]

I'm fortunate enough to live only about 10 minutes from Southlake Towne Square. I can't wait until they start on these brownstones!! My wife and I go over there all the time...especially to Mi Cocina!

I miss Mi Cocina like I miss Slurpees at 7-11. Stop tantalizing me!

[Geaux Tigers]

I miss Mi Cocina like I miss Slurpees at 7-11. Stop tantalizing me!
Dude, if you get out there, do what we do. Eat at Mi Cocina (the patio rocks), then walk across the square. On the other side of Starbucks is Milwaukee Joe's ice cream shop. Get you some ice cream and just hang out and people watch. That's what qualifies as a fun date on a Saturday night for me and my wife.

[freewaytincan]

Dude, if you get out there, do what we do. Eat at Mi Cocina (the patio rocks), then walk across the square. On the other side of Starbucks is Milwaukee Joe's ice cream shop. Get you some ice cream and just hang out and people watch. That's what qualifies as a fun date on a Saturday night for me and my wife.

Sounds ideal for photography. Speaking of which, you can see my work in the link in my signature.

[texman]

I have yet to get out there. Perhaps I will next time I'm up in Dallas, which may not be until late October or even Thanksgiving.

I went out to the southlake development when I was doing some community service for my Dad's company. It always looked as if it was modeled after the Back to the Future "Hilldale" town square (1950s one), or that may just be me..

[crescentboi]

It always looked as if it was modeled after the Back to the Future "Hilldale" town square (1950s one), or that may just be me..

LOL! i've been out there once and that's exactly what I thought! It's a great area, but it just looks too staged for me. Part of what I like about the West Village is it all looks different and it's different heights and such and the "urbaness" of it doesn't end at the borders. Once you leave the town square you are out in suburbia/rural suburbia again. it's culture shock every time you come or go imo.

[rantanamo]

agreed. great looking development, but very staged looking. Just kinda sits off to the side of a main rd like a normal strip shopping center. It's really nice though. Maybe it should have integrated into the major streets a little better.

[Geaux Tigers]

agreed. great looking development, but very staged looking. Just kinda sits off to the side of a main rd like a normal strip shopping center. It's really nice though. Maybe it should have integrated into the major streets a little better.
What major streets? There's FM 1709 (Southlake Blvd) and that's about it. This is the reason the developers want to expand the square and give it a little more of an "urban" feel.

[rantanamo]

Isn't there another road just to the west of the development that intersects Southlake Blvd?? I just mean it seems to sit of to the side of the road like a power center strip. Doesn't really sit in the street grid.

[Kelley USA]

Hey Geaux- I live about 10 minutes from the square as well... I'll look for you at Milwaukee Joe's next time. I'm pretty sure a weekend doesn't go by that I'm not at the square. My company actually looked at leasing space in the new phase- so I made a few inquiries. Here's an email I received:

(As you mentioned, the new phase includes Harkins Theater, Barnes & Noble, a 210 room Hilton Hotel, several national restaurants including Cheesecake Factory, Brio, Clauddagh Irish Pub, and the local burger operator – Snuffers. The current phase consists of 330,000 SF of retail – the second phase will consist of approximately 250,000 SF of retail, restaurant, and entertainment. The projected opening date will be April 1, 2006 with a delivery date of approx. July 2005)

I can't wait for this to get started!

[bigtex]

This new development is exciting news for me since my wife and I are moving to Southlake in about two months and we will be very close to the Town Square. It was actually one of the major things that attracted us to the area since we live in the Knox/Henderson area now and hate to give up that urban feel. At least we will have an oasis down the street.

[Geaux Tigers]

Hey Geaux- I live about 10 minutes from the square as well... I'll look for you at Milwaukee Joe's next time. I'm pretty sure a weekend doesn't go by that I'm not at the square. My company actually looked at leasing space in the new phase- so I made a few inquiries. Here's an email I received:

(As you mentioned, the new phase includes Harkins Theater, Barnes & Noble, a 210 room Hilton Hotel, several national restaurants including Cheesecake Factory, Brio, Clauddagh Irish Pub, and the local burger operator – Snuffers. The current phase consists of 330,000 SF of retail – the second phase will consist of approximately 250,000 SF of retail, restaurant, and entertainment. The projected opening date will be April 1, 2006 with a delivery date of approx. July 2005)

I can't wait for this to get started!
The Clauddagh Irish Pub sounds like it's going to be serious trouble for me. There aren't many good pubs in this area and whenever I'm near DTD, I always have to run up to Mockingbird Station and hit Trinity Hall. Nothing like a pint of Guiness in the morning to start your day off right!

KellyUSA- I'm usually there with my wife around 8:00 after dinner. Khaki shorts and flip flops. Also, come December, we'll have a newborn with us. Of course, I won't be in Khaki shorts and flip flops by then.

BigTex- Welcome to NE Tarrant big guy! I think you'll find it's a little more quiet out here than the Knox-Henderson area at night. Did you guys buy a house in Southlake?

[bigtex]

A little nervous, but also looking forward to the change of pace (and a much bigger yard!). We're building a house just on the other side of 114 from the Town Square. We had not planned on moving "out of town" this soon, but with the pace of development out there, I don't think it would be even remotely affordable in another couple of years.

One of the coolest things with Southlake is the ability to monitor all the development through their website. I have also been very curious about the Aventerra development and how that's coming along. Anyone have more info on that?

[Kelley USA]

Hey bigtex... I try and keep up with developments as much as possible- regarding the Aventerra- I think this might be a big dream idea that never really gets off the ground. In fact, Gateway Church in Southlake just bought 100+ acres for a sprawling church campus on 114 (I believe most of this is in the Aventerra area).

However, here is an article that appeared a few weeks ago regarding Southlake Development:

Southlake will add nearly a dozen newcomers to its retail base by the end of 2004, as developers of Wyndham Plaza and neighboring Southlake Corners install new tenants into space currently under construction at both shopping centers on either side of the intersection of Southlake Boulevard and Kimball Avenue.


The city welcomes the expansions, said Greg Last, Southlake's director of economic development. "These centers will be adding some exciting energy to our retail community as well as a substantial enhancement to our tax base."

Southlake Corners, which is replacing a now-demolished Wal-Mart store at the northwest corner of Southlake Boulevard and Kimball, has signed lease agreements with Colonial Bank, Carvel Ice Cream, Second Swing Golf and The Mattress Firm, the Houston-based bedding giant that announced its initial public stock offering last month.

Hamburger fix
Additionally, fans of the venerable Kincaid's Hamburgers, which started 40 years ago in a Fort Worth grocery store, won't have to drive all the way out to West Camp Bowie for their burger fix.

Irving-based Archon Group, Southlake Corner's developer, had previously announced a Circuit City store for the center, which will account for about 33,000 square feet of the project's total of just under 130,000-square-feet, said Elizabeth Farrell, a broker with Staubach Retail Group, which is handling the center's leasing duties.

"We've got an additional 46,000-square-foot anchor space that we've had several things working that we think will pan out soon," she said. "The smaller retail shops will take up roughly 15,000 square feet."

More restaurants
Across Kimball Avenue, Wyndham Plaza is in the middle of a 21,000-square-foot expansion to the center's existing 340,000 square feet of retail offerings. The new tenants include Zocalo's Mexican Grill, Fish City Grill, Cold Stone Creamery, i Fratelli Pizza and Palm Beach Tan.

Mike Barnett, president of Canyon Partners, which owns the ground lease for the Wyndham Plaza, said he expects to deliver the new space to the tenants for finish-out by October.

Wyndham Properties developed the first portion of the center in early 2001 with a 155,000-square-foot Costco as the anchor.

"We still have some Phase II property consisting of about 9 acres," Barnett said. "We're talking with a fitness group that could take up to half of it, and we're talking to several junior-anchor types that would be in the 15,000- to 25,000-square-foot range. "Southlake has turned out to be a great market, with credit tenants moving around paying good rents, which have maintained instead of softening."


P.S. Geaux- I will certainly keep an eye out for you... Congrats on the baby too!

[tamtagon]

I think it's reasonable to say most of NE Tarrant County and most of SW Denton County will thrive through similar town center developments as in Southlake. The most favorable suburban environments in the country will develop here.

[Geaux Tigers]

P.S. Geaux- I will certainly keep an eye out for you... Congrats on the baby too!
Thanks bud! We're excited and nervous at the same time because this is our first.

I know the city of Keller is also working very hard on getting some new retail development (i.e. new tax income) to move on down 1709 into Keller. Right now, most of the retail seems to be springing up either in Watuaga or Southlake, but not too much in Keller.

[bigtex]

Very interesting about the church buying that much land. I'll be very curious as to what happens on the large block of land slated as Aventerra.

Also, very good to hear about Kincaid's. Great burgers.

Things are getting exciting for us, my wife said they started bricking our house today!

[bigtex]

A little research on the ol' internet yields the land slated for the church is between Kimball and Carroll, 114 and Highland. Must be the where the cows and pond are as you go along the service road. Also, price is said to be around $20 million.

[Geaux Tigers]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>Posted on Wed, Nov. 17, 2004</TD><TD width=15 rowSpan=7>http://www.dfw.com/images/common/spacer.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>http://www.dfw.com/images/common/spacer.gif</TD></TR><TR><TD colSpan=2>

Incentives for Town Square approved

By Sarah Bahari
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

<!-- begin body-content -->SOUTHLAKE - After three months of discussion, the City Council on Tuesday night agreed to provide roughly $15 million in economic incentives for the next phase of Town Square.

"It's really an exciting day in Southlake," Mayor Andy Wambsganss said before the unanimous vote. "This will be a destination location. There's really no downside to this." The long-anticipated decision allows developers to build the $50 million Grand Avenue project -- which includes a 200-room hotel, a 14-screen movie theater, a bookstore and additional restaurant and retail space. Southlake Town Square developer Cooper & Stebbins had asked the city several months ago to provide $15 million -- about $5 million more than originally expected -- to cover public improvements for the addition.

Council members have said that they refuse to dip into taxpayer money to pay for the project. Instead, the city will provide about $7.5 million through a tax-increment financing district, or TIF, which collects property taxes on new construction and funnels the money into public improvements within the district. The city will also give developers an estimated $7 million from a portion of the sales tax revenue from the development.

The funding agreement is scheduled to end in 2018. This would be the second TIF district in Southlake; the first, enacted in 1997, provided about $6.7 million for Town Square. Developer Brian Stebbins said he looked forward to starting the next phase. "This is a good agreement for the city," he said. "We believe this will be very complementary to what we already have out here." Planning for Town Square -- a "new urbanist" mix of shops, offices and restaurants and brownstone homes patterned after a 1930s town -- began in 1996.

The Grand Avenue phase of the development will be northeast of Town Hall and extend to Texas 114. The addition is expected to generate $4.4 million annually in tax revenue. Through 2018, the agreement will bring in an estimated combined $32.6 million in tax revenues for Southlake and the Carroll school district, said Sharen Elam, the city's finance director. The council also approved plans for the movie theater and two parking garages, which have been discussed in detail during the past month and a half.

Members said they wanted to make sure that the parking garages would be safe and well-screened from public view. They also objected to the movie theater's modern design, saying it did not fit in with the rest of Town Square's old-fashioned appearance. Stebbins added shrubs and trees to the outside of the parking garages and reworked the design of the movie theater to give it more of an art-deco appearance.

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[freewaytincan]

I must admit that I'm really not surpised. Southlake realizes what they have here, and they're going to do just about anything for it.




Stebbins added shrubs and trees to the outside of the parking garages and reworked the design of the movie theater to give it more of an art-deco appearance.

Most excellent.

[Kelley USA]

Good news indeed!!! Southlake is a "can do" city... Props

[Geaux Tigers]

Most excellent.
I'm pretty stoked about the art deco look myself. It's about time architects started putting some actual thought into cinemas again.

[freewaytincan]

I'm pretty stoked about the art deco look myself. It's about time architects started putting some actual thought into cinemas again.

No kidding. I'm getting tired of the one size fits all, sort of art deco infused with 1950s modernism look on the theaters these days.

[bigtex]

This is great news. I wonder when they will start on all this. I am supposed to move out there 4 weeks from today... The area north of 114 has been really rockin' even since we started building in August. There's new housing developments going in just north of the Aventerra site and some new ground being broken for some buildings at the corner of 114 and Carroll. Should be exciting to see all the new development.

[CTroyMathis]

Another nice follow-on article about the Town Square expansions:
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13652456&BRD=1426&PAG=461&dept_id=528212&rfi=6

[Geaux Tigers]

Hip to be square
Brian Stebbins overcomes resistance to create and expand a traditional town square in Southlake


By Sarah Bahari
Star-Telegram Staff Writer

<!-- begin body-content -->SOUTHLAKE - Restaurant tables quickly fill up. Shoppers stroll in and out of The Gap and Pottery Barn, browsing through stacks of T-shirts and home decor. Coffee lovers wait in line for an afternoon fix, and a father swings his daughter in circles near the large fountain. Brian Stebbins peers out his second-story office overlooking Town Square to see it for himself. The 47-year-old developer has dreamed about this place for almost 10 years. Not so long ago, the land was an egg farm.

Then Stebbins came and attempted what critics deemed improbable, if not impossible:

Turn this wealthy city of 20,000 people into a bustling destination, with municipal and business offices, restaurants and shops. Create a downtown from scratch, and make it look 100 years old. By many accounts, he has succeeded. Retail sales for 2004 surpassed $80 million, Stebbins said. Property within a special taxing district that supports Town Square has added about $92.7 million to Southlake's tax roll, the city's budget shows. And sales tax revenues are up, even as they lag in other area cities. Residents and city officials, for the most part, are pleased. And next month, the developer will break ground on the third phase, which will include a movie theater and an upscale hotel.

"We first wanted to give people a reason to come here," Stebbins said. "Now, we want them to say there's no reason to go anywhere else." Along the way, Stebbins has faced occasional criticism and resistance in a city where $400,000 houses are the norm and the average household income is more than twice the national average. But Stebbins persisted, eventually turning even ardent detractors into supporters. "This took someone with a special vision to pull off," said Terry Wilkinson, a residential developer in Southlake familiar with Town Square. "Maybe half a dozen people in the nation could have done it."

Cutting-edge vision

When Stebbins considers what a small town should be, he thinks of his mother's hometown of Washington, Iowa, where he spent holidays and two weeks each summer. There, historical brick buildings surround a large fountain, and on holidays, it would become even more festive. That was Stebbins' vision for Town Square, and in 1996, it was considered cutting edge in a country that values sprawling shopping malls. Then in the late 1990s, the developments -- called New Urbanism -- gained momentum.

Now, as many as 200 cities are building or have built similar "town square" developments, said Dean Schwanke, vice president of development, trends and analysis for the Urban Land Institute, a research and education organization in Washington, D.C. Many take their cue from Southlake. City officials and developers give frequent tours to other officials from around the country who are considering similar developments. Town Square is on the cover of two books -- a handbook and a collection of case studies -- written by researchers at the Urban Land Institute. "There's a pent-up demand in the suburbs for a meeting place," Schwanke said. "A real town center, not just a shopping center."

Stebbins capitalized on that.

With the Texas economy unraveling, he went bargain-hunting. He stepped in to develop 130 acres between Texas 114 and Southlake Boulevard after a mall developer backed out. And he prepared to convince skeptical residents of his vision. It was not an easy sell.

'Slow to be embraced'

Stebbins posed this simple question to about 250 Southlake residents in 1996: "What do you want your town square to be?" They wanted charm. Great stores. A city library. Sidewalk cafes. But they had doubts. For one thing, Stebbins was in his late 30s and not a well-known developer in North Texas. He had worked in New Zealand, Australia and Irvine, Calif., where he and Peter Cooper formed Cooper & Stebbins. Cooper now splits his time between New Zealand and California. Rumors circulated. "Everyone was saying he had just done these big-box developments," said Sherry Berman, a Southlake resident who initially opposed Town Square. "He had no reputation. Nobody knew him." Stebbins had completed retail centers in Texas and Washington state and a residential development in Southern California.

Still, skeptics called the Town Square proposal a mall with the roof ripped off or an artificial remake of small-town America. "Town Square was slow to be embraced," said Greg Last, Southlake's economic development director. "It was a different type of product than people had seen before, and there were a lot of concerns." Instead of relying on emotional pleas, Stebbins turned to sophisticated slides, artists' renderings and in-depth details. Then he hired renowned architect David Schwarz -- designer of The Ballpark in Arlington, now Ameriquest Field in Arlington, and Sundance Square in Fort Worth. That gave Stebbins instant credibility.

Meanwhile, he moved his family -- wife, Pattie; son, Carter, now 12; and daughter, Jenna, now 9 -- from Laguna Beach, Calif. He wanted to live in the city he would help shape. Not long after, he took charge of the Carroll Education Foundation, a move that proved to residents that he cared about Southlake and its future. The foundation raises money to benefit teachers and students. "At foundation meetings, he does not represent himself as Mr. Town Square," said Roxanne Hughes, a friend and commercial real estate agent. "He says, 'I'm Brian Stebbins. What can I do to help the kids?' "

'A family man'

Stebbins relishes a low profile. He arrives at his office around 8:30 in the morning, ready for countless meetings and telephone conferences. Working through lunch, he finishes at about 7 most nights. When he is not working, he hangs out at home in Southlake's Monticello Estates and catches up with his children, who have grown up playing in Town Square. Friends and neighbors sometimes run into him at his daughter's soccer games and his son's hockey games. "Brian is a family man," Hughes said. "Some people in his position aren't able to balance the two, but he makes it a priority." Twice a year, the family heads to the Midwest to visit relatives. Stebbins grew up in Rockford, Ill., and his wife grew up in northern Wisconsin.

Stebbins talks easily about Midwestern values, which he and his wife want to pass on to their children. "It's about what kind of person you are and about family," he said. "It's not about what you have and who you know." Every spring, they vacation on a beach in New Zealand, where his family spends the week relaxing and enjoying the solitude. It is the only place he does not work.

'The whole bloody thing'

On a sunny December afternoon, residents, city officials and developers gathered on a plot of dirt to celebrate the beginning of construction on brownstone-style homes at Town Square. Stebbins thanked everyone for their hard work and help, "especially the ones who stayed with us through the whole bloody thing," he joked. He got a lot of laughs. And for good reason. It took a year of back-and-forth debate for the City Council to somewhat reluctantly approve the brownstones. Critics said the project was out of character for Southlake and would lead to more high-density housing. But Stebbins guessed that many Southlake residents were ready to downsize and wanted to remain where they had raised children and made friends. He eventually got the votes he needed. That was pure Stebbins, friends and colleagues say. He researches, analyzes and sells his ideas. Guiding his proposals through sometimes tedious City Council and planning and zoning meetings, Stebbins persuaded the city to establish two special tax districts -- one in 1997 and the other in 2004 -- to help finance the development.

The tax increment finance districts funnel property taxes generated by the project back into the development to pay for public improvements, such as sidewalks or parks. Overall, the first TIF district has been successful, said Sharen Elam, the city's finance director. As of August, the district's value was $92.7 million, up $8.1 million from the previous fiscal year that ended Sept. 30, 2003, budget documents show. It was expected to raise $1 million in property tax revenue this fiscal year. The city's sales tax revenue -- much of which is driven by retailers within Town Square -- is expected to be up 3 percent this fiscal year to about $5.3 million, according to city reports. But Town Square growth has been slower than city officials initially hoped, and the $1 million in anticipated revenue this fiscal year won't be enough to cover the $1.9 million payment that is owed on bonds sold to support the initial project. To cover the payment, the city plans to dip into its debt service fund, which is supported by property taxes and interest income.

Will Cureton of CLB Partners, whose Dallas firm is developing the brownstones, said elected officials respect and trust Stebbins even if they don't always agree with him. "There is generally some tension between the community and developer, but in this particular case, it's good tension," Cureton said. "We all end up with something we can be proud of." That has driven Stebbins, who can rattle off the smallest of details. Chimes ring in Town Square every 15 minutes. Some of the buildings have date stamps on the front. Those kinds of special details impress city officials. Mayor Andy Wambsganss said Stebbins is not a traditional developer concerned with saving money. "Brian prides himself on the ultimate look," he said. "Obviously, economics has to play into it a little, but he looks at it as an art."

'The best rehab'

Every once in a while, Stebbins leaves his office and strolls through Town Square, enjoying what he helped create. Some may think it odd to still find him here. Developers usually come in and get things going, then move on to the next project after a couple of years. "The simple answer is we're not done yet," he said.

Stebbins calls the third phase of the development -- scheduled to be completed in April 2006 -- vital to Town Square's long-term success. It will add a hotel, a movie theater, a bookstore and several more restaurants and clothing stores. For now, the success of the project has quieted early critics. Berman, the resident who initially opposed the development, wrote an apology letter to Stebbins after Town Square opened. "I was wrong," she said. "He had a vision, and his vision far exceeded anyone's expectations." Such accolades helped Cooper & Stebbins recently land two major projects in New Zealand, beating out international competition for a four-block development in downtown Auckland, the country's capital. Auckland city officials visited Southlake before choosing the firm. He is thrilled with the recognition, he said. But the best compliments are smaller, more personal. About two years ago, a man walked through Town Square, marveling at the genuine small-town feel. "This is the best rehab of a downtown I've ever seen," the man said. Stebbins just laughed and thanked him.

[tamtagon]

Create a downtown from scratch, and make it look 100 years old.

haha - Instant History - haha


"We first wanted to give people a reason to come here," Stebbins said. "Now, we want them to say there's no reason to go anywhere else."

This might be the first mistake in plans for the Southlake Town Square development. The reasons for this evolution in community planning labled, New Urbanism, resulted from a psychological need. Builders and city planners caught on that any collection of separate but similar ajoining suburban neighborhoods (generally contained within but not restricted to the same municipality) coming into existance within a generation need a physical setting for social interactions primarily among neighbors. This town square is where people from Southlake eat, shop, people watch and get to know who lives in the area. It should not be where people from Southlake do everything. In the attempt to make this town square an all inclusive destination for locals will degrade the suburban community equity - it's most valuable component. Through attempts to create a perception that there's no reason or need for a trip to downtown (Dallas OR Fort Worth), this Town Square Development looses ability to satisfy the psychological need for a sense of community.

[Sammy_Jenkis]

I live in Southlake. Adding a hotel, a movie theater, brownstones, and more restaurants and shops will not make the development LESS successful in my opinion. We'll probably go there more often in fact. As far as the developer's quote about "no reason to go anyplace else", that's just talking.......doesn't even make sense.

[tamtagon]

I live in Southlake. Adding a hotel, a movie theater, brownstones, and more restaurants and shops will not make the development LESS successful in my opinion. We'll probably go there more often in fact. As far as the developer's quote about "no reason to go anyplace else", that's just talking.......doesn't even make sense.

What's happening is Southlake is great - a hotel, movie theater, brownstones, restaurants & shops will make it better. "No reason to go anyplace else" doesnt make sense to me, either. I'm concerned that talk like that could lead to marketing and developmental directives which will eventually dilute the potential "my neighborhood" appeal. Growing all levels of the family-oriented services industry in a Town Square is an ideal, and hopefully there will be space held in reserve to expand the retail/entertainment offerings as the composite demographic of Southlake area families cycle through the stages of child rearing.

[US75Guy]

Ft. Worth had downtown, and there was "no reason to go anywhere else." Then North Richland Hills built a mall and there was "no reason to go anywhere else." Now Southlake is building their Town Center with the same philosophy, and that will be fine for this decade, till the next suburb further out starts developing because the land is cheaper and the homes are newer and more fashionable than the tacky turn-of-the-century crap in Southlake.

All suburbs have a measured shelf-life and the next generation trying to escape whatever demons they fear will find their own, further out.

Okay.....a rough day at work.....I'm better now.

[Sammy_Jenkis]

Suburbs happen because of population growth. Last I checked Dallas still had a million residents. Richardson, Garland, Bedford, Plano, etc. etc. are all still there with no dropoff in population.

It's only natural that with a couple million more people in the area (or however many) in the last 30 years, that a few more shopping centers or destination spots might turn up........

Besides, it's not like Dallas proper is without any areas that have or had a "measured shelf life". Not long ago, Uptown wasn't much to behold. Deep Ellum seems to be rotting a bit on the shelf. And Downtown ceased giving people "no reason to go anyplace else" long long ago.

Not to mention the thousands upon thousands of mid century ranch style 3-2 crap that were thrown up all over town in a cookie cutter's orgy during the 60s-70s. :)

[US75Guy]

Growth is not a bad thing. I agree that the population growth in N. Texas over the last 30 years needed to go somewhere. Though if it had to overtake farmland instead of increasing density in existing developed areas is for another thread.

Stebbins said. "Now, we want them to say there's no reason to go anywhere else."

The point of my post was the arrogance of the developer saying that the Town Center was some sort of finale. To our culture of sprawl, there is ALWAYS a reason for someone to go somewhere else: cheaper housing, less traffic, better schools, less blight, fewer ethnicities. And developers have a self-interest in stoking that......they want to keep developing. So I'm sure whoever this Stebbins guy is will have a "new" and "better" development in Westlake or Van Alstyne or Anna in a few years that will make travelling to the aging and blighted Southlake unnecessary. In 2020, Southlake Blvd. will just be nothing more than another traffic-choked six lane monster lined with aging Marts and car dealerships. It will not be deserted, as Dallas has not been deserted, but it will not be a final destination either....just another exit ramp.

[psukhu]

In 2020, Southlake Blvd. will just be nothing more than another traffic-choked six lane monster lined with aging Marts and car dealerships. It will not be deserted, as Dallas has not been deserted, but it will not be a final destination either....just another exit ramp.

Southlake is the third wealthiest area in DFW and the wealthiest area in the Ft Worth division of the DFW MSA:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3432&highlight=wealthiest


Just like the Park Cities, I don't think we'll see a decline in Southlake during our lifetime. Southlake will always be the enclave for the rich and powerful in Tarrant County because of it's easy commute to DT FT Worth and DFW Airport.

[Sammy_Jenkis]

One thing is practically certain.... There will not be any car dealerships on Southlake Blvd. And probably not any WalMarts since we just booted the one we had to Grapevine. The developers had a nice little 2 year run when we fell asleep and let them take control of the city council. They were able to slip a couple big boxes in there, but unless the income demographics retreat, I don't see Southlake approving car dealerships or WalMarts or any other Marts along Southlake Blvd or Hwy 114. "No big boxes past Home Depot" is the mantra.

As for the Town Square developer, I say big deal. He's selling his product and just saying he wants to add more amenities to the development. I really dont think he was trying to be arrogant.

One other point is that the latest proposal has the City changing the zoning on the strip development next to Town Square and other nearby land to the same as the Town Square so that any redevelopment of that strip center or new development will be of the same quality and fit in with the Town Square area. In other words, make the Town Square bigger......

[utgf]

One thing is practically certain.... There will not be any car dealerships on Southlake Blvd. And probably not any WalMarts since we just booted the one we had to Grapevine. The developers had a nice little 2 year run when we fell asleep and let them take control of the city council. They were able to slip a couple big boxes in there, but unless the income demographics retreat, I don't see Southlake approving car dealerships or WalMarts or any other Marts along Southlake Blvd or Hwy 114. "No big boxes past Home Depot" is the mantra.


When my niece did not get admission to Hockaday, my brother moved to Southlake a couple of years ago so that he could put her in their school system, which is considered one of the best in the area.

From what I recall, Southlake and Grapevine were throwing incentives at WalMart to locate the Super Walmart in their respective cities since they wanted to replace the existing regular WalMart in Southlake.

Currently the Town Center is already pretty much surrounded by strip malls and big boxes that look like anything else built in any other suburban area.

And even the whole Town Center stuff is being built or planned in every suburb I can think of.

Everytime I have been there, I have hated how isolated the whole development looks. So it will be good that they are going to connect it to Hwy 114 and expand it further.

[Sammy_Jenkis]

Some wanted WalMart to stay in Southlake. Most wanted Walmart to leave. Grapevine offered the incentives. They left.

Town Center is surrounded by one strip center to the east, undeveloped land and a new hospital to the south, a bank to the west and hwy 114 and several hundred undeveloped acres to the north. There's a big retail development with a Kohl's a couple miles down the road which is typical suburb stuff. Don't like it much. Kind of grapeviny looking. Don't like grapevine at all except for the downtown. ( In fact, can't think of any suburbs in the area that I like except southlake, which I've surprisingly grown to like quite a bit because of the people.)

While there are quite a few Town Center type developments being planned, I wouldn't say EVERY suburb has them and I doubt they'll be the same scale as Southlake's. However, if they do, then I think that's great because I like that type of development (at least it's better than a mall or a typical strip center). Every large city has a downtown area, too which I think is a nice idea. So not sure what the point is of that argument unless you just don't like that type of development.

Town Square does look isolated since there was no development around it when it was started. Less and less though.

[Geaux Tigers]

Believe me, the city of Southlake REALLY misses the sales tax revenue that Wal-Mart gave them! The city council thought they could call WM's bluff by saying they didn't care if WM stayed or went, so WM went...a couple of miles down the street to Grapevine.

[Haretip]

And probably not any WalMarts since we just booted the one we had to Grapevine.

No, you lost the Wal-Mart. The council would not let the store expand, so the good folks in Bentonville pulled up stakes and moved a few blocks south. And for all those that "wanted Wal-Mart to leave", I see a lot of those Southlake Soccer Mom SUV's in their new parking lot, so I imagine Grapevine thanks you for the sales tax! Oh sure, the Circuit City is generating revenue, but not nearly what the Wal-Mart was doing.

[Sammy_Jenkis]

Exactly!! We "lost" the Walmart because we wouldn't let the store expand. We wouldn't let the store expand because we didn't want the Walmart there! It turned out great for Southlake residents and you are absolutely correct, we can drive a couple miles down the road and STILL shop at Walmart if we want to.

In the meantime, it's one less discount retailer in our city. Of course we lose some sales tax revenue. Big freaking deal. Maybe my taxes are $50 higher per year because of it. In the meantime, my home value continues to appreciate at a higher rate than if it were in Grapevine.

Look, suburbs don't have a lot that separate themselves from each other. One thing you can do is try to make the place "nice" (for lack of a better word). A lot of people want to live in a "nice" place. For instance, oak cliff is "prettier" in many ways than highland park, yet highland park is where most people would choose to live if they could because it is "nice".

Setting some standards, not developing all at once, restricting "ugly" big boxes, etc. helps keep the place "nice" over time. Southlake already has a little too much bland retail on 1709, but anything that keeps it from becoming a never ending sea of car dealerships, chain restaurants and big box retailers like south cooper or collins in arlington is a step in the right direction.

My opinion is let Grapevine have all the WalMarts, KMarts, Targets, car dealerships they want and let them save a little money each year on their taxes. Hopefully Southlake will take a little more exclusive approach, separate itself somewhat from the surrounding suburbs, and be a place that people want to make home. That will continue to drive up home values and more than make up for any lost revenue from walmart.

[US75Guy]

Driving up home values is very nice.....when you want to sell your home. It's great for the investment side of homeownership, but it also increases your tax burden as the value of your home continues to rise.

Actually Sammy, I agree with you that I would be willing to pay more taxes if that meant stricter zoning and code enforcement that made my city a better place to live. However, we would be in the minority, and always will be. Away from this forum, must people are at best neutral on the effects of big box retailers in their city, and if it means lower taxes, they will lay the asphalt for the parking lots themselves. The good folks of Southlake will discover as their town ages demographically that surviving on property taxes alone with an aging infrastructure can get 'spensive.

[Geaux Tigers]

Setting some standards, not developing all at once, restricting "ugly" big boxes, etc. helps keep the place "nice" over time.
So, it's okay for Circuit City, Lowes, Home Depot, and Ultimate Electronics on 1709 to stay in Southlake?

[Haretip]

Exactly!! We "lost" the Walmart because we wouldn't let the store expand. We wouldn't let the store expand because we didn't want the Walmart there! It turned out great for Southlake residents and you are absolutely correct, we can drive a couple miles down the road and STILL shop at Walmart if we want to.



Oh well. I suppose I don't understand why some people do the things they do. I'll be content to live in the county and work in Southlake.

I did see that Southlake was number 3 on home values by zip code. I suppose this is in the Timarron portion?

[Sammy_Jenkis]

US75Guy,

Good points. I will say that in the last city council election, the choice was crystal clear between candidates who whined and moaned about losing Walmart and were campaigning on looser development restrictions, and candidates who wanted to get back to stricter development restrictions. It came out around 68-32% for the second group. We had a two or three year period when the developer friendly group was in control. That spawned Lowe's, Costco and the big retail development I mentioned earlier along with a huge gas station at the entrance of the City.

I think we obviously need some of these big retailers. They provide sales tax revenues, but can also bring in traffic to other local retailers. But the design of the buildings needs to be controlled and the sheer amount of them needs to be limited. There is a point at which too much retail, especially loosely designed retail, limits property value growth over time and the sales tax revenues are negated by the the property value limitation and the extra infrastructure and city services required to support said retail.

It should also be said that many studies have been done and shown that there is basically zero net benefit in many if not most cases to the municipal treasury over time with the addition of a Walmart to an area. It all depends on the specific situation of the particular municipality.

So back to the original point. Southlake Town Square provides it all. Sales tax revenues. Shops and restaurants that the citizens use. A place for the community to congregate. A design that is not offensive or 'ugly' to most.

Ok. I'm through talking about Southlake so much.

[Sammy_Jenkis]

HareTip,

The zip code encompasses the entire city, not just Timarron. As you know, much of the city is still rural with small homes.

[rantanamo]

The biggest houses are next to the Carroll High right? I think along that road on its south? Those are bigger than what Timmaron has to offer and is very Fareview like. Can't remember if that was a subdivision or not. Don't think zip is a good way to measure anyways. They ADs recognize subdivisions so I'm surprised the zip list wouldn't follow this. That would be a more interesting comparison.

[tamtagon]

We had a two or three year period ... That spawned Lowe's, Costco and the big retail development I mentioned earlier along with a huge gas station at the entrance of the City.

... the sales tax revenues are negated by the the property value limitation and the extra infrastructure and city services required to support said retail.

Considering that in 20 years, over 100,000 new residents are expected in neighboring cities and within 5-10 minutes of the municipal border, it's an excellent decision for Southlake to exclude certain types of businesses. I fully expect a very upscale resort-styled development will find it's way to the Southlake shoreline of Lake Grapevine. To rely more on property value rather than retail sales for municipal revenue is a good thing for a city like Southlake. Ideally, Southlake, Grapevine, Westlake, Roanoke, Colleyville, N. Richland Hills and Keller will form a cooperative to manage the population growth and the retail/entertainment growth which will serve the new population.

[rantanamo]

^ If only the whole metroplex could work together like that.

[texman]

^ If only the whole metroplex could work together like that.

God Forbid with towns like Frisco and my hometown Mckinney.