25 story buildings in ALLEN?!?!

[rjlevins]

Rezoned property in Allen may offer gateway



Leaders: Mixed-use plan will complement Jones' Blue Star site


12:45 AM CDT on Friday, October 1, 2004

By STELLA M. CHÁVEZ / The Dallas Morning News

ALLEN – A former outlet mall that has sat vacant for more than 15 years would be demolished to make room for an upscale mixed-use development under a proposal described Tuesday night to the Allen City Council.

Council members approved the rezoning of 91.5 acres on the southwest corner of State Highway 121 and U.S. Highway 75, only a few thousand feet east of Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones' Blue Star Land project.

The plan calls for up to 25-story buildings with lofts, condominiums, retail space and offices. Council members gave their approval to the rezoning with the condition that no more than 20 percent of the property be developed into condominiums or townhouses.

"We envision this is going to be the next Galleria," said Michelle Corson of Greyhawk Realty Capital, which is representing the property owner, Belz Enterprise of Memphis, Tenn.

City leaders say the development would complement Blue Star's project – a 529-acre residential, retail and entertainment center off Highway 121 between Chelsea and Watters roads – and serve as a gateway to Allen.

Council members also considered a detailed site plan for Blue Star's project. The council approved the rezoning of that land in March.

Council members discussed whether they needed to approve the site plan, because site plans usually are approved by the city planning staff. But because of the size and scope of the Blue Star project, council members wanted a look at the plan.

Mayor Pro Tem Ken Fulk said he wanted the plan to include more details about the commercial part of the project.

"I am very hesitant to defer a lot of details to the platting stage," he said.

Other council members asked for specifics about street layout, setback requirements and hike-and-bike trails.

Earlier, the city's planning director said the two projects would draw outsiders to Allen and provide amenities for people living there.

"It's going to allow our residents to be able to shop here, eat dinner here," said David Hoover, director of planning and development. "They'll become destination centers."

The property rezoned is actually two tracts. One is undeveloped. The other was the site of the former Belz Outlet Center.

The 406,000-square-foot mall opened in 1983 and closed after the 1980s real estate bust. Belz tried for years to sell the land, to no avail.

"Frisco has the mall. They're building a town center. Plano has downtown and Legacy," said Mr. Hoover. "We don't have that range of tools ... to attract those types of development."

That's starting to change, say some observers.

"It's a new opportunity," said Charisse Canfield, executive director of the Allen Economic Development Corp. The Belz project "is going to help develop the northern corridor for us, and that's something as a community we've been looking forward to. We felt like it was just a matter of time."

E-mail schavez@dallasnews.com (schavez@dallasnews.com)

[rjlevins]

So exciting. I've been anticipating what they would do with that old mall. TEAR 'ER DOWN! and put up a HUGE DEVELOPMENT. I never thought Allen would have a building that big, ever. Maybe it will be able to hit over 100,000.

[gc]

blasphemy!

[rantanamo]

Why would Allen need to build that tall?

[bloodandpopcorn]

To be the "next Galleria."

When will people realize we need to stop building "next"'s and instead focus on making what we have the biggest and best of their kind in the nation?

[drumguy8800]

To be the "next Galleria."

When will people realize we need to stop building "next"'s and instead focus on making what we have the biggest and best of their kind in the nation?

When Texas cuts off development anywhere north of like.. the PGBT?? *COUGH*

[freewaytincan]

When Texas cuts off development anywhere north of like.. the PGBT?? *COUGH*

When we secede and I become the first President of Texas in over 150 years, I'll keep that in mind.

[slfunk]

Why would Allen need to build that tall?

I agree and ask "Why do they need to build a development like this." When reading the article all I could think is " here we go again, another irresponsible suburban development. Where they try to recreate the urban environment in the middle of a corn field." Its comical, because they are (including Frisco) trying to manufacture a product that will not have the essential key factors to maintain property values ten years from now. If they really do build these condos and such, pricing them similarly to uptown condos/townhomes, they will not maintain value as time passes. Allen is a 'new' suburb like Frisco, their markets are private home developments where each person has a quarter acre. I believe there may only be an exception or two where these condo's may actually succeed. That being downtown Plano since it is ON the Dart rail, downtown Carrolton (DART), Legacy Park because of the corporate campuses, and possibly Frisco's proposed development around Stonebriar/Ballpark.

These type of developments are overwhelming successful in Uptown/Downtown...etc. because of the urban fabric/history there. I just wonder how much longer we are going to have these plans proposed, before we see a lot of failure much like stadium proposals. I also wonder if we will see sometime in the not so distant future an actual colaborative governing body working towards a more structure developing metro instead of each suburb trying to compete with the next and being a parasite surving only by the namesake city.

[tamtagon]

I dont have any problem with another suburban shopping complex at all. I certainly would not want folks moving into neighborhoods North of Plano to be forced to drive more than a couple miles to get to a place where they can buy everything they need to function as a family. That this complex would be modeled after the Galleria sustains the common thread of suburban life. Just like ordering a Big Mac, you can be in Houston, Boston, Portland, Calgary - you're going to get the same sandwich. The Galleria is at the top of the food chain, the roll model for suburban malls and you'll find the same shopping experience in all suburban communities. It's boring, but it meets every possible need of a household.

It's still a matter of convenience and will maintain the generally high standard of living in Collin County; for every 100,000 people, there's going to be a suburban complex maxing out most service industries' potential within the local population. Other than curious consumers, the only shoppers in a suburban mall will be those living within a few miles, hopefully someone in the metroplex will wise up as bundle traditional mall venues with community center and municipal operations. It's the town square.

Every time a mall like this is built, it only stregthens the position of downtown Dallas, which is a unique environment.

[slfunk]

I respectively disagree. This does not strengthen downtown by any means, this takes away business and tax base for the city center. To add to that Allen does not contribute to the greater whole much like McKinney does not. They do not pay into Dart, they do not contribute to the tax base for Dallas. Only when you get into Plano, Richardson, and more inner burbs do they start to contribute more to the metro. I can tell you first hand talking with individuals I grew up with who still live out in Plano, in large part they do not come into the city. One friend in particular has not come into Dallas for five years now, she has no idea what uptown (my home) is like. This is also not just a typical suburban development. They are trying to recreate an urban context. To add to that this is not a response to demand. The market is already saturated with retail, and that comes from a very reliable source. This project is the idea of the city in order to spark some economic development, not a private investor. A private retail investor tyically comes in once the market is there. So I do not agree with the convience argument. Collin Creek is a five minute drive closer then North Park is to my neighborhood. And the area can only support so many 'luxury' complexes like NorthPark, Willow Bend, Galleria, Park/Preston...etc.

If Dallas looses its downtown structure/ business / tax base/ which the city of Dallas is working hard not too the overall metro will hurt in the end. Where we have existing square footage in commercial/office that should be paying the majority of the taxes, it is not. Dallas is one of the if not the largest city in the US where the city gets most of its tax base from the residents and not the office / commercial market.

[US75Guy]

ah wellllz. Without some controls on suburban sprawl (not going to happen in Texas), the north will continue to be plowed under for more tract development with a WalMart & Home Depot every 5 miles, and a Blockbuster and Starbucks every 3.5. It's the nature of modern suburbia. Tamtagon has got it right there.

No headlines here, Downtown has not been a retail factor since the 70's (sorry, Neimans), so that's not something to worry our heads about now. Marketing downtown as an exciting destination place for office and commercial is the goal we should be striving for....... some interesting retail that is unavailable in the burbs, great or at least interesting restaurants, and nightlife. The great, white north can nail together pale imitations of an urban lifestyle, but whatever the shape they make the stucco and neon exteriors, it is still a mall surrounded by a parking lot....not a real "town center", or downtown.

There is a reason they are trying to turn areas like Legacy from office parks into "urban areas"...people like the feel of it! They hate sterile bldgs out in cornfields....they are cheap to build, but dull to use! Walking out of your office into a cool Main Street with people to watch and things to do, can make the day, and the happy hour, a little easier to bear. Now, if Dallas can just connect the dots and get people to try the real thing, down on the Trinity, we'll see something exciting happen! Not bad for the tax base, either...

[rjlevins]

Yes, yes we all hate suburban sprawl...as do I...to an extent, but this is a metro...it always will be a metro, any development is good development. This project won't be built for awhile and it will probably be when that area is 700,000 people on its own. That's a heck of a lot of people and a lot more of these developments will pop up. I would rather see buildings like these continue than a couple hundred more houses.

[mikedsjr]

I agree, US75.

I understand the underlying basis for the detractors of this building. Suburbia is a whole different type of people than the people of the central urban areas. Suburbians like what the Urban area has but they don't want the Urban area problems. That is why all of these places pop up.

[drumguy8800]

well said, US75Guy.

I find that Dallas.. whether it be Downtown, Oak Cliff, North Dallas.. is way more exciting than going to say, Legacy, or to a movie off the tollway in Plano. Going there, you see insta-history, but going to say, the Highland Park theater after eating Brazilian, and hearing my mom tell me how she worked there and all the fun she had, is an experience. And going downtown and walking around all the skyscrapers, taking in the historic and modern, feeling the pulse of the heart of the city. Then eating on a patio as the traffic rolls down Main Street and the Davis flashes its colorful lights and the dangling streetlights kick on, lighting the way for the people streeming up and down the wide walkways, or stopping to stroll around Pegasus Plaza with their dogs. One of my favorite downtown experiences was sitting outside at the Iron Cactus, watching the sky fade into a brilliant display of colors, streaming east down Main street, reflecting off the towering buildings. I also love going to Bishop Arts in Oak Cliff, and going to that small soda shop on Bishop Street to get that Dublin Dr. Pepper that you can't ever find, then walking around the corner to Veracruz Café for a truly unique latin dinner.. not some On the Border knockoff. Then as I drive back to my house, I cross the soon-to-be grand Trinity, and past that black void is the massive urban structure of downtown.. a truly breathtaking view. And making my way through Downtown again, I stop to wait behind the train tracks, watching the DART train whizz down the transit mall, carrying the other people enjoying their city.. who have either just finished their night or are just getting started.

[texman]

That old mall there tearing down...*sniff*...I learned to drive there in the parking lot. Oh the memroies. Well said though Drumguy, though I don't think all the "burb people" would agree with you. Gotta stay in the bubble. You know "Dallas is crime ridden and unsafe" and if they cant get to downtown why not bring it to them. Thats why you have these developments.

[rantanamo]

You have these developments so the Jerry Joneses and Thomas O' Hickses of the world can make easy money, quickly, rather than doing something hard like Victory or the WV.

[freewaytincan]

You have these developments so the Jerry Joneses and Thomas O' Hickses of the world can make easy money, quickly, rather than doing something hard like Victory or the WV.

Well, it could be worse. They could be making their millions off of just more mcmansions.

[bloodandpopcorn]

No, that would be better, because then they wouldn't be drawing from current urban areas.

[rantanamo]

^precisely. I have no problem with suburbs being suburbs. Things like this though, scatter the urban landscape. As a large employment node it would become a focus point like Legacy, and spread the sprawl even more. It will also add to the huge suburban vacancies in the metroplex. The same money could be made back, and more sustainably in the core. It would just take longer.

[RobertB]

That old mall there tearing down...*sniff*...I learned to drive there in the parking lot. Oh the memroies.
My memory of the place was the billboards touting the mall's then-unique bigness. One said something like, "You can't build a mall this big in Rhode Island." Wonder if that's still true anymore?

Back to the present... I see a lot of posts decrying the nouveau-faux-urbanism, and my instinct is to agree. On the other hand, isn't that what the Las Colinas development intended to create -- an upscale planned community with a "downtown" core, high-density condos, high-dollar homes, and a golf course? Kind of like a real city, except that everybody is upper-middle class. How does this project compare/contrast with the Las Colinas model?

One thing that was missing from Las Colinas, as it turned out, was connectivity with the real world -- the minimum-wage folks that keep the "perfect world" turning can't live in it. If Allen were to join DART -- they could, since they're next to Plano -- they could include LRT in their plans. Does anyone up there have that sort of vision, or do the "leaders" all prefer to follow Jerry Jones and his money like a ... dog ... in heat?

[ship@O'cliff]

Trademark firm unveils mixed-use Allen development
Steve McLinden
Correspondent
Dallas Business Journal

Fort Worth-based Trademark Property Co. has designs on a high-traffic Central Expressway site in Allen, where it plans to build a 50-acre, mixed-use development called Market Street.

The upscale, urban-style project, designed to cater to the affluent residents of the northeastern Metroplex, will include nearly 300,000 square feet of retail and restaurant space, 50,000 square feet of office space, 150 hotel rooms, 50 brownstone units and 150 multifamily residential units, said Trademark officials, who unveiled the project at the International Council of Shopping Centers convention in Las Vegas.

"Allen is where Plano was 10 years ago," said company representative Reif Chron. "It's really humming. We think Allen is very under-retailed."

Market Street, which is expected to open by early 2006, is slated for the southwest corner of Central Expressway and Bethany Drive on what's known as the old Montgomery Farm property. It is directly across Central from the 5.5 million-square-foot Allen Technology District and just north of Cinemark Tinseltown.

The development will serve as the "town center" of the planned 500-acre Montgomery Farm community, which is expected to eventually feature at least 1,500 luxury residential units, including townhomes, zero-lot line homes and estate lots that will be built by Dallas-based Emerson Partners, as well as 250 acres of open space, according to Trademark.

Trademark CEO Terry Montesi said the firm has the 50-acre parcel at the "hard corner" of Bethany and the south-bound Central Expressway access road under contract for the development.

The firm would likely sell off the hotel portion of the land to a developer/owner, he said.

A site plan for the open-air complex includes a grocery-store anchor space, a pair of two-level buildings with ground-floor retail space and either office or residential components on the second floor, a two-level bookstore and seven restaurant pad sites. No tenants have been announced.

Marketing literature called the mixed-use complex "a natural oasis just minutes from central Dallas...that will serve the fast-growing and under-retailed North Central Corridor, including Allen, East Plano, Richardson and McKinney. The residents of the area that will be served by Market Street have money to spend, but nowhere great to spend it."

The trade area surrounding the development includes a population of 300,000 within a 15-minute drive and an average household income of $87,786. Average household income in Allen is $94,664. There is not a lifestyle center or fashion mall within 7.5 miles of the site, Trademark said.

As you can see, it has great demographics," said Montesi.


David Palmer, senior vice president and development partner with Dallas-based Cencor Realty Services, said the land "is a great piece in terms of I-75 access and visibility."

Trademark is "a top-quality company and if anyone has the wherewithal to pull it off, they do," he added.

If the site faces any challenges, it will be in immediate population depth, he said. "The broader trade area itself is big."

The 1,500 residential units planned for Montgomery Farm are expected to be priced from $350,000 to $2 million, averaging $500,000, according to Trademark.

Montesi, former principal and co-founder of Huff, Brous, McDowell & Montesi Inc., founded Trademark in 1992. The firm has developed, or is in the process of developing, more than 3 million square feet of retail space nationally.

[ship@O'cliff]

I grew up in Allen ( I now live in Oak Cliff and love it) and it seems strange that there is this much development (Jerry Jones' Blue Star Development, Market Street, Arts District) planned for a city of its size. I just have a hard time seeing brownstones in Allen especially without LRT and Dart access like in Plano.

[RobertB]

Market Street, which is expected to open by early 2006, is slated for the southwest corner of Central Expressway and Bethany Drive on what's known as the old Montgomery Farm property. [...] The development will serve as the "town center" of the planned 500-acre Montgomery Farm community, which is expected to eventually feature at least 1,500 luxury residential units, including townhomes, zero-lot line homes and estate lots that will be built by Dallas-based Emerson Partners, as well as 250 acres of open space, according to Trademark.
There ought to be a law against including the word "Farm" in the name of any development that includes zero-lot-line housing. Something more accurately descriptive should be required. I would suggest "Prison":

The development will serve as the "town center" of the planned 500-acre Montgomery Prison community, which is expected to eventually feature at least 1,500 luxury residential units, including townhomes, zero-lot line homes and estate lots that will be built by Dallas-based Emerson Partners, as well as 250 acres of open space, according to Trademark.
Yeah, I think that will do nicely.

[slfunk]

^precisely. I have no problem with suburbs being suburbs. Things like this though, scatter the urban landscape. As a large employment node it would become a focus point like Legacy, and spread the sprawl even more. It will also add to the huge suburban vacancies in the metroplex. The same money could be made back, and more sustainably in the core. It would just take longer.

Thank you.... You may not agree with all that I said but same mode of thinking. I know its being said..one person wrote people in suburbia want the downtown feeling w/o the crime etc. The crime statistics disprove that argument. Read the stats not what is publicized in the newspaper and what is talked about in suburban neighborhoods, perception is a smoky half truth. I can tell you first hand growing up in Plano there was more crime there then in Dallas, excluding some of the crime ridden neighborhoods south of downtown (hence not in the city core or uptown). More crime in the way of break-ins, cars stolen, rape and batter, people mugged and killed in their own homes. It is a proven fact crime follows people no matter their local, background, or placement on a geographic map. This was a subject matter I took up shortly after my family had been followed and our house had broken into (in an upper class neighborhood on the west side of Plano)

And not all development is good. That was the concieved notion of the 70's 80's and 90's. We talk about why Dallas this, and it needs this, to do this,...etc. When you encourage development in other places then the one place that truly needs help, you take away its taxes base that will aid in the development of schools, police, hospitals, sewer systems...etc. etc. Then once it declines you have a built environment that will struggle (Detroit perfect example). Right now it may not work in "Texas," but that is not the right approach to have. We will be paying for it in the future if that mentality continues. Examples to be found are in Garland, Mesquite, South Dallas, Carrollton, older parts of Plano. Those were towns and areas not built for sustainability but instead quick development. With in my life time we will have people in Sherman complaining about not wanting to go to Allen or Plano because of the old delapitated homes, crime and poor schools.

Anyway this is off the subject...but I think you can tell this development announcement pushed a button. I don't believe we should all be in an urban setting because it is not for everyone. But there is something wrong with taking away development that is (much more contextual in an urban setting) and pouring salt on the wound of a place that is trying to find itself (Dallas).

[freewaytincan]

There ought to be a law against including the word "Farm" in the name of any development that includes zero-lot-line housing. Something more accurately descriptive should be required. I would suggest "Prison":

Yeah, I think that will do nicely.

Hey! Don't steal Huntsville's thunder!

[sogod]

One thing that was missing from Las Colinas, as it turned out, was connectivity with the real world -- the minimum-wage folks that keep the "perfect world" turning can't live in it. If Allen were to join DART -- they could, since they're next to Plano -- they could include LRT in their plans. Does anyone up there have that sort of vision, or do the "leaders" all prefer to follow Jerry Jones and his money like a ... dog ... in heat?
Most minimum wage folks don't use mass transit, at least not in the Northern suburbs. Most drive, just like everybody does. And it costs too much, usually, to live in TOD. So, I don't think you have to have LRT to be "connected". Roads yes, rail, no.

Neither Addison nor Legacy, nor a large part of Uptown I'd say, is connected with rail either and they all do just fine.

[psukhu]

We'd all love to see this kind of stuff replace the empty lots in the urban core.

Why isn't that happening at a faster rate? Why is this stuff going up in corn fields? (really, it is)

1)I think many of the urban property owners of the blighted lots are simply asking too much money because many of them are all holding out for very dense developments. Also, the lots are small and quite a few of them will need to be assembled for a larger development. Absentee ownership makes this even harder. Should the city should step up to help assemble this land for developers via eminent domain?

2) Also, metro DFW is obviously on track to easily pass 10 million people. Every single residential building that goes up is doing well. (townhouse or highrise) Why not build more?

3)In a future metro of 10 million people, you have to expect developments like this far from the central urban core. Long Island has stuff like this and so does the suburban parts of the San Francisco Bay Area.

[sogod]

I know its being said..one person wrote people in suburbia want the downtown feeling w/o the crime etc. The crime statistics disprove that argument. Read the stats not what is publicized in the newspaper and what is talked about in suburban neighborhoods, perception is a smoky half truth.
I think you are missing the point, perception is what matters when people decide where to live, shop, eat, do, not statistics.


It is a proven fact crime follows people no matter their local, background, or placement on a geographic map. This was a subject matter I took up shortly after my family had been followed and our house had broken into (in an upper class neighborhood on the west side of Plano)
While there is crime everywhere, property crimes really do follow poor people.

I can tell first hand, that there was much less crime in my neighboorhood in Allen, then the neighboorhoods in Garland and Irving that I have lived in.


But there is something wrong with taking away development that is (much more contextual in an urban setting) and pouring salt on the wound of a place that is trying to find itself (Dallas).
Like Addison Circle, or Legacy, or DT Plano, or Las Colinas? Besides, there is nothing to indicate that this project would have gone anywhere near DT Dallas if Allen didn't exist. The developer just saw the changing winds (suburbanites wanting urban areas) and decided to make some money off of it.

[slfunk]

I think you are missing the point, perception is what matters when people decide where to live, shop, eat, do, not statistics.


While there is crime everywhere, property crimes really do follow poor people.

I'm not missing the point. Perception is not truth, perception for this discussion is defined by people believing in something w/o investigating the truth. Property crimes do not "really" follow poor people. They follow each and every person no matter their background or income. Read the crime stats in your neighborhood over the past year. You will see your neighborhood comes nowhere close to the safe ideology you think it is. Even in Allen. Allen is new and clean which reads to the person, must be safe and have good schools. Which is not the truth. I grew up in Plano and had friends in Allen and one of the families I grew up with just moved there. Its the same ole story that I new growing up. Worse drug problem then Plano, kids always trying to get into trouble because they are bored.

You are right that is what sells, but you are wrong in that I am missing the point. My point was perception is not truth and perception is what is hurting the overall development of the metro.

[sogod]

I am not saying perception is truth, but that is what people act on. Just showing off some statistics that "prove" some areas of Dallas have less crime than some parts of Plano isn't going isn't going to change anyones opinion of Dallas as a whole (and I say prove in scare quotes because how statistics are measured greatly determines how valid they are). But I agree that the perception Dallas has in most parts of the metro has hurt it (not that this is entirly the fault of the suburbs though).

I know there is crime in Allen, no doubt about it, but not the same types or quantity that parts of Garland or Irving have (read, they have worse crime). And crimes are generally under reported in poorer, immigrant areas, which Allen isn't but Garland and Irving are. You have to keep stuff like that in mind when interpreting statistics.


Property crimes do not "really" follow poor people. They follow each and every person no matter their background or income.
I am not saying only poor people commit crimes, or every poor person is a criminal, but I think you are flat out wrong here. I guess we will have to agree to disagree here.

[drumguy8800]

Property crimes do not "really" follow poor people. They follow each and every person no matter their background or income.

.. said the politician at the bureau of bureaucracy.

that may be politically correct, but there are trends.

[RobertB]

I am not saying perception is truth, but that is what people act on.
Perception indeed is not truth. But: Perception is reality. I learned that in a Psych class, I think.

On the other hand:


I know there is crime in Allen, no doubt about it, but not the same types or quantity that parts of Garland or Irving have (read, they have worse crime). And crimes are generally under reported in poorer, immigrant areas, which Allen isn't but Garland and Irving are. You have to keep stuff like that in mind when interpreting statistics.
Since we're agreeing to disagree, let me give you my pet anecdotes.

In the late '80s, we lived in apartments in north Dallas, near LBJ & Forest. One night, a guy broke into our apartment while we were there in bed. Apparently, he was too high to remember where he'd already been... he came back again after making off with a VCR and a Nintendo, IIRC, but ran off when he realized his mistake. Both times, he yelled "Hey, get out of here!" at us in a gruff voice. He escaped through a fence into a vacant field bordering LBJ.

Same apartments -- we moved to a 2nd floor apartment in the same parking lot as the office. That was where our car was stolen in broad daylight! Busted out a window, broke the steering column, and went for a ride. The car was found three days later, mostly intact, on Scyene Road near a cemetery... still running, since there was no way to shut it off easily.

One night in Plano, my wife and I drove to a car wash in our Hyundai. A guy in a big truck was parked off to the side... or so we thought. Apparently, he thought we cut him off. He got in line behind us, right on our bumper. After we washed the car, we drove out... and the guy in the truck drove THROUGH THE CARWASH and was on our tail. This was in the middle of the Central Expressway expansion north of LBJ, so I got on the highway and figured he'd give up. Nope. We were screaming at 80 mph through the barrels and detours until we got to Midpark. Fortunately, I knew the neighborhood from working at TI -- I exited, shot into the business park (where Wal-Mart now stands) and ducked behind a building. The guy saw us exit, but didn't see where we went, and after driving around the intersection a few times he had to give up.

In 1991 or 1992 we moved to a rent house in Oak Cliff, near Hampton and Illinois. Little kids filled the streets all day and into the early evening. It was the most peaceful, family-friendly place we've lived, with plenty of folks to watch our kids and everything we needed within walking distance. If it weren't for the Dallas schools and the rather small '50s-era houses, we'd have probably stayed. Never had a bit of trouble there, or in the 9 years we spent in a mixed-ethnic neighborhood in Grand Prairie.

Of course, it's hard to top 8 acres (and four horses, five dogs, a dozen or so cats & kittens, and three rabbits) in the middle of nowhere. But for city living, give me the south side any day.

[sogod]

.. said the politician at the bureau of bureaucracy.

that may be politically correct, but there are trends.
Just so we are clear, slfunk said that, not me. :)

[slfunk]

Yes we will have to agree to disagree.

[drumguy8800]

Just so we are clear, slfunk said that, not me.

Heh! Sorry about that! fixed.

[CTroyMathis]

How is this Belz Mall-site dealio going?

[RuggerAl]

are the numbers there to support this sort of a structure... generally i would move to the burbs because of the space and the single homes... if I wanted a townhome, brownstones, condo hi-rise, etc... i am thinking someplace urban..
Here is the thing... in Dallas those are all very high end at the moment i could never afford one, but you can have that same thing now in the burbs for a little less and it might be something to drive people to the burbs again... affordability it is what drives the suburban movement and the new urbanism suburbanism will do the same thing. Scary, but that is what happens when cities neglect moderate and low income housing- which is apparently something that major cities are experiencing.

[Random Traffic Guy]

Is this the General Growth site? Between Allen and McKinney corners, and maybe Fairview in the act too, that corner of 121 and 75 is going to be retail crazy in 5 years... and under High-5ish level of construction too.

[rjlevins]

are the numbers there to support this sort of a structure... generally i would move to the burbs because of the space and the single homes... if I wanted a townhome, brownstones, condo hi-rise, etc... i am thinking someplace urban..
Here is the thing... in Dallas those are all very high end at the moment i could never afford one, but you can have that same thing now in the burbs for a little less and it might be something to drive people to the burbs again... affordability it is what drives the suburban movement and the new urbanism suburbanism will do the same thing. Scary, but that is what happens when cities neglect moderate and low income housing- which is apparently something that major cities are experiencing.

One thing being discussed a lot in Austin lately is where we want to grant entitlements for height and density. The MPO and the City of Austin are both currently doing some long-term planning for regional centers. There is certainly some concern from the downtown community especially that if we start granting too many entitlements similar to downtown, we may not see the area's full potential.

Out of curiosity, does anybody know if there's been any talk of regional zoning powers coming out of DFW? I heard something awhile back about it, but haven't lately. In Austin, our MPO is considering using federal transportation dollars as leverage to require regional cities to update their codes. This would be a very effective tool in DFW.