DART: Falling revenues put D2, DFW in limbo

[RobertB]

DART sent an email last night with a link to a press release with a title that sums things up: Reduced sales tax forecast prompts review of operations, future capital projects (http://www.dart.org/news/newsrss.asp?ID=901). Here's a key section:

Current rail projects not slowed; all agency functions to be reviewed
Thomas said the schedule for the planned bus purchase is not affected by the financial information. In addition, the DART Rail Green Line, and the Lake Highlands Station on the Blue Line, will open as scheduled in December 2010. The Blue Line extension from Garland to Rowlett will open as scheduled December 2012.

In February, DART officials said the opening of the first two sections of the Orange Line from northwest Dallas to Irving may be delayed due to schedule problems with the Texas Department of Transportation's (TxDOT) SH 114/Loop 12 construction. The timing of those sections of the Orange Line will not be affected by the latest financial development. DART and TxDOT officials are continuing to review the schedule in an attempt to maintain the original opening dates to Belt Line Station.

Thomas said all aspects of the agency's operations and future capital expansion are being reviewed and no decisions have been made. The Board will receive regular updates leading to the preparation of the fiscal 2011 budget. The Board is scheduled to approve a new budget in September.
The Dallas Morning News, though, read between the lines of those paragraphs and realized what *may* be on the chopping block: D2 and DFW Airport. Here's what the DMN's Lindenberger found out in his reporting on the situation, in his piece headlined "Dallas transit officials warn of service cuts, trouble for new projects (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/032410dnmetdart.4070b77.html)":

The slow economy in North Texas has finally kicked Dallas Area Rapid Transit right in the teeth. Its top executives said Tuesday that sharply reduced bus and rail services are almost certain, and plans to build a second downtown Dallas rail line and to complete the Orange Line to the airport are now in jeopardy.

No decisions about what to cut, or how deeply, will be made for at least two months. But the agency's chief financial officer warned board members that the downward adjustments because of lower-than-expected sales-tax receipts would be "profound."

It's possible that some capital projects could remain in the 20-year plan, he said, but probably only if the agency greatly reduces service levels for existing bus and rail lines, or finds big new sources of state or federal funds.

"Large capital projects that are not currently under construction simply do not fit within your revised financial plan unless you make significant cuts in service levels," said David Leininger, DART's chief financial officer. "Meaning, that one comes at the expense of the other. And it's important to note that even if we didn't do any capital expansion, then existing service levels will still have to be reduced."
The DART press release points out that 75% of DART's revenue comes from the 1% sales tax, so just hiking fares wouldn't solve the problem. Though it *would* reduce demand, which would then allow DART to cut back services -- at the risk of being accused of charging more for less.

The bottom line is pretty stark. The City of Dallas has been demanding hundreds of millions of dollars' worth of extra tunneling for a Convention Center Hotel station, but the point is moot -- D2 isn't even likely to happen, much less the gold-plated version. Forget about that Blue Line "spur to nowhere" to serve the Intermodal Port. And non-DART members like Mesquite, Forney, and Terrell are going to have to push hard on their representatives in Austin, because without significant changes in state law, there's nothing DART can do but go into semi-hibernation while they ride out the storm.

One thing to note, though: DART isn't denying the problem. It would be much easier politically to put on rose-colored glasses, and act like everything will be fine. I'm sure there's an accountant somewhere who could look at future revenues just a little differently, and divert attention from potential problems in hopes that they'll just evaporate. DART didn't do that. And when things do turn around, whenever that is, the agency will be stronger for their little-c conservative policies.

[TowerGuy]

I have two proposals for a way that DART can save and make money:
(1) Get the HOV lanes off of your back! DART, IMHO, should stick exclusively to rail and bus services. TxDOT should be the agency to fund and manage existing and planned HOV lanes.
(2) It is time to abandon the honor system and implement turnstiles!!

Both of these proposals would not only save and create revenue but finally end DART's vulnerability to a rare commodity: HUMAN HONESTY.

The HOV lanes are a crock because time and time again, thousands of solo drivers a day, use them. HOV=Carpool, respect that. Again, IMO, TxDOT should be responsible for those lanes because it just makes more sense.

The Honor System.....you guessed it. My friends, family and I know people who refuse to purchase a ticket. That is stealing from the rail system!! I would estimate that between my friends, family and I, we could combine 30 people into a group that will admit they don't pay when they ride DART. "I never pay. Who's gonna catch me? There is never an officer on board." So that is 30 people counted up just from my small world. Most of them are frequent thieves, I mean riders, of the system. Multiply that and....GEEZ.

I'm not saying these two proposals would fix everything and bring a financial windfall to DART, BUT they would help. Dollars add up.

[CasperITL]

Fire 1/2 the management, paycuts across the board. DART only exists as a taxing authority. They are not in the transportation business.

CFO should be fired outright. Total mismanagement of revenue.

Fire half the DART cops too, remove DART control of HOV lanes.

I have alot of respect for the actual drivers, train folks and maintenance people who work for DART. The non-transportation employees I have no respect for. They are a collection of folks who cannot get a job in the private sector. Fire them.

[quietthings]

Yikes. I read this article yesterday and it is depressing. If DART does have to cut back on rail/bus service, can we expect things to go back to normal once the economy is back up to full steam?

[mjblazin]

The depressing line is that areas from which DART taxes have barely increased overall sales tax revenue since 2003, well before the downturn. DART jurisdictions are not the growing jurisdictions. Given the inability of DART to offer new services, I'd question if other growing jurisdictions would want to join.

That's the beauty of money. However long you postpone it, eventually money forces a day of reckoning bringing clarity to your decisions. No more fanciful plans about new subways, high tech streetcars, and unfunded new stations. What we are building now (people with a shovel moving earth on 3/24) is what we'll have for the next 2 decades.

Hopefully sooner rather than later we'll get the same clarity on the Trinity Toll Road.

[dfwcre8tive]

How At-Risk is Second Downtown Light Rail Alignment Given DART's Shortfall?
By Robert Wilonsky, Wednesday, Mar. 24 2010 @ 10:01AMComments (2)
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/03/how_at-risk_is_second_downtown.php

​One of the projects most threatened by Dallas Area Rapid Transit's sales-tax receipt shortfall, announced yesterday, is the second downtown light-rail alignment -- the so-called D2 that's been under consideration since at last the fall of 2007 and which, in January 2008, the Dallas City Council demanded move forward despite a billion-dollar budget shortfall revealed weeks earlier. The council's also made it very, very, very clear: It favors the most expensive (by far) and perhaps least efficient (say some) D2 alignment -- the one that stops at the convention center hotel.

And so I asked DART spokesman Morgan Lyons this morning, via e-mail, exactly how at-risk D2 is given yesterday's bad news. He responds thusly:


D2 will be part of our budget and financial plan review. We'll have our first update to the Board on capital projects in late April.

The short answer is based on the updated sales tax information we don't have enough funding to build and operate everything we had planned beyond the current Green, Orange and Blue projects. The final section of the Orange Line to Terminal A falls into that category too.

It's frustrating to us because we want to build and operate all of these projects. We'd still like to find ways to do that.

Hard choices ahead.

...

[tamtagon]

The revenue shortfall might cause delays, but I don't think the cash shortage will be too sever, last very long or cause the cancellation of the D2 or Airport loop.

Hopefully this will make DART dump the idiotic Convention Center Hotel single use DART doormat station in favor for the less expensive station proposed for a couple hundred feet away. I think BigD5349 pointed out recently that the existing Convention Center Station does not provide direct access the the CCtr - that's the mistake DART and/or the CCtr should correct.

DART will be forced to pick one of the expensive projects to begin first - airport or downtown. D2 first.

[CasperITL]

Yikes. I read this article yesterday and it is depressing. If DART does have to cut back on rail/bus service, can we expect things to go back to normal once the economy is back up to full steam?

Doubt it. They screwed up the math when issuing bonds. The are paying a premium toi service those bonds now with no hope of getting out from under it.

Interesting that tax revenues have fallen for them while we are seeing a large increase in population. This is due to the large influx of immigrants who are paid in cash, buy things in cash and rarely pay sales tax for goods or services. Same thing happened in Los Angeles. Same thing is now happening here. Underground economy.

The Trinity Tollroad and Hotel issues have me so mad that we now only buy most stuff online and out of state to avoid taxes. My new HDTV comes on Friday! Very excited.

[tamtagon]

Interesting that tax revenues have fallen for them while we are seeing a large increase in population. This is due to the large influx of immigrants who are paid in cash, buy things in cash and rarely pay sales tax for goods or services.

Source?

[RobertB]

Doubt it. They screwed up the math when issuing bonds. The are paying a premium toi service those bonds now with no hope of getting out from under it.

Interesting that tax revenues have fallen for them while we are seeing a large increase in population. This is due to the large influx of immigrants who are paid in cash, buy things in cash and rarely pay sales tax for goods or services. Same thing happened in Los Angeles. Same thing is now happening here. Underground economy.
Last time I checked, buying groceries at Fiesta Mart with cash generated just as much sales tax revenue as buying with a check or credit card. Or are you saying that there's a full-scale underground economy for all goods, kinda like a citywide Canton First Monday (http://www.firstmondaycanton.com/) (where you're supposed to charge tax, but probably don't)?

Meanwhile, it's probably scant consolation, but North Texas transit agencies aren't the only ones dealing with financial problems:

New York Post: MTA approves massive service cuts
By TOM NAMAKO, Transit Reporter
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/mta_approves_massive_service_cuts_ld0ihDzwNAygo2Hw 9S0zlM
Posted: 12:30 PM, March 24, 2010

About 110 bus routes will be eliminated or reduced and the W and V [subway] lines will vanish after the MTA board approved a massive slew of service cuts today.

The vote was 11-2.

"This is a sad and disappointing day for straphangers," said City Council speaker Christine Quinn.

The slashes will help close about half of a $750 million MTA budget gap for 2010.

[...]MTA officials and board members said they have no choice but to make the cuts.

The budget shortfall was caused by Gov. Paterson's reductions in direct aid and state bean counters miscalculating how much tax revenues would come to the agency.

"I don't think the extent of our financial situation leaves us any choice," Walder said.

Board members also fired back at city and state elected officials for "trying to blame us for what is entirely their responsibility," said board member Allen Cappelli.

"They wrote us a bad check," Cappelli said of the legislature.

Other board members attacked "ridiculous" union work rules and raises as another reason for the shortfall.

"The burden shouldn't just be on the riders," said board member Nancy Shevell.

[full story at link]
It should be noted, though, that eliminating two subway lines in NYC doesn't mean that they'll go away completely -- the tracks will be used by other trains with modified schedules, but commuters will have to transfer instead of having a direct link. The discontinued line would be analogous to a direct Dallas-Garland train (except not nearly as long, obviously).

[CasperITL]

Last time I checked, buying groceries at Fiesta Mart with cash generated just as much sales tax revenue as buying with a check or credit card. Or are you saying that there's a full-scale underground economy for all goods, kinda like a citywide Canton First Monday (http://www.firstmondaycanton.com/) (where you're supposed to charge tax, but probably don't)?



Most groceries are tax exempt. In addition, if the person is on food stamps, candy, ice cream, soft drinks and certain toiletries are tax exempt too.

There is a huge underground market for consumer goods. A whole economy based on barter, trade and cash.

Where there is no parallel market for goods and services is where one should look. Retail store bought beer, booze, lottery tickets, gasoline and cigarettes have stayed at a constant level.

People are simply gaming the system.

[AeroD]

Most groceries are tax exempt. In addition, if the person is on food stamps, candy, ice cream, soft drinks and certain toiletries are tax exempt too.

There is a huge underground market for consumer goods. A whole economy based on barter, trade and cash.

Where there is no parallel market for goods and services is where one should look. Retail store bought beer, booze, lottery tickets, gasoline and cigarettes have stayed at a constant level.

People are simply gaming the system.

Yea, but they still pay rent, and landlords still pay property taxes. If they eat at any taqueria or drink at any cantina, you bet they pay taxes.

But let's assume they are "gaming the system," they are no different than you now are they? You said yourself you are buying your stuff online so you can avoid paying taxes. Immigrants and white conservatives hating to pay taxes. Imagine if the GOP would bring these two groups together, long-term political dominance. But nah.

[CasperITL]

If they eat at any taqueria or drink at any cantina, you bet they pay taxes.



Why is it that you are assuming I'm speaking of hispanics?

Taxes are rarely paid. It's like driving over the speed limit. You only get in trouble if you re caught.

You really think that 8.25% is collected at the various bazaars and flea markets around town? Thats where a large segment of the population in Dallas now shops.

What about auto repair, plumbing or roofing? You think that someone's friend's cousin is going to charge you sales tax for a new roof? Heck no. Then they would have to report that income and pay federal taxes too.

Since you guys are so hung up on "Fiesta", take a good hard look at the vehicles the welfare cases drive in the parking lot. What you say? They all look new? Yep. As long as you keep youir money out of banks and off the grid, you can be dirt poor on paper and well off in reality. Thousands and thousands of people here have figured this out. The decline in sales tax revenue collected is a metric of that.

[AeroD]

Why is it that you are assuming I'm speaking of hispanics?

Because the vast majority of immigrants that come to the States, in particular Texas, are from....Mexico.

Unless, of course, you were speaking about our vast Japanese or French communities located in Dallas. Little Paris on Jefferson Blvd. Little Tokyo on Webb Chapel Extension.

[saxman66]

Well I thought DART and The T would be able to weather the storm, but I guess not. Their crisis seems to have come a lot later than other transit agencies though. Here's yet another reason for a regional transit authority for the whole region. And another reason to get transportation reform done on the federal and state level. It's no problem for transit to cut backs or shut downs, but what if they tried to shut down a highway because of budget cutbacks? That would never happen.

[electricron]

DART receiving less sales tax revenues is very disappointing. But what do you expect when the economy flounders. The worse I read in that report was, as I quote DART's CFO David Leininger,

"And it's important to note that even if we didn't do any capital expansion, then existing service levels will still have to be reduced."

Meaning the Board will have to cut service levels more to do any capital expansion - - - or find new revenue sources to pay for the planned capital expansion projects.....

Hopefully. DART can find a way to get Federal funds for these planned expansions, still realizing the Feds usually participate at 50% and that DART will still have to find it's 50% share from somewhere.....

But I believe this bad news kills all other planned projects not under contract for over 10 years at least, including the Cotton Belt project, assuming NCTCOG can't find Private Partners for the PPP project, which DART couldn't find.....

I believe we all have been guilty of counting our chickens before the eggs hatched.... :drool:

[mjblazin]

Federal Government won't have any money. They will be slimming down non-Health/non-Social Security programs as early as next year. We've already started issuing new debt to cover current Social Security payments. Capital expenditures on transportation will be one of the first categories to go. Previous mentality was everybody gets a share and the pot gets bigger. New mentality is pot won't cover everyone. If I don't get mine, you don't get yours.

[Rodger Jones]

Originally posted by tamtagon:
The revenue shortfall might cause delays, but I don't think the cash shortage will be too severe, last very long or cause the cancellation of the D2 or Airport loop.

Interesting take. Assumptions?

[Rodger Jones]

Originally posted by CasperITL:
They screwed up the math when issuing bonds. The are paying a premium to service those bonds now with no hope of getting out from under it.

Tell me more. I presume this refers to construction bonds that have financed rail projects, past and present. Are you saying these projects were and are ill-advised? What financial model would have been superior?

[CasperITL]

Tell me more. I presume this refers to construction bonds that have financed rail projects, past and present. Are you saying these projects were and are ill-advised? What financial model would have been superior?

I have always been wary of DART and its financing. In 2000 when the "hurry up" bonds were passed, I do not think DART lobbied for a good rate on the bonds. I believe it will cost $3 billion dollars in interest alone for the 30 year bonds. Much of that went into double tracking the Red and Blue lines. I spent about 20 minutes today looking at rail schedules to see if the double track is really being used. The initial plan was to use one line, with rail spurs allowing trains to pass one another. Not sure if that 2nd line is really needed. I kind of think of that bond issue as DART applying for a huge version of some high interest rate credit card. Buy now, pay later.

In addition they promised a large reduction in vehicle traffic on the roads. That never materialized. Many of the people I see riding the trains do not own vehicles.

The other more troubling issue was the 2007 one billion dollar shortfall for the expansion to Rowlett. I cannot wrap my brain around how they screwed that up. The money should have been there, untouched and available. They saddled themselves into more debt as a result. So much of that is shrouded in smoke and mirrors that I cannot figure out where the money went. Should be in some kind of annual report but it is not. It is just candy coated and glossed over.

I have never ridden on a bus or train that was dirty in the last 10 years. Nor have I waited on a late bus. They always seem to run on time and are clean. Hard to ask for much more. But I think we could be getting a better deal as taxpayers if the organization was shaken up from the top.

What ever happened with the whole Shaw forgery thing? After the murder/suicide it was quietly forgotten it seems.

[tamtagon]

Interesting take. Assumptions?

I assume the economy will get better sooner rather than later. It's just about to Spring.

[saxman66]

In addition they promised a large reduction in vehicle traffic on the roads. That never materialized. Many of the people I see riding the trains do not own vehicles.

Source? Whose cars are those that are parked at all the stations? It's true that most people who ride buses are people who don't have a car. But you'll find a different picture for the train riders. Most train riders do have cars.*

And most of the traffic growth is from our growing region, the fastest in the nation I might add. DART can't and isn't expanding fast enough to cover that growth. But then again, our highways can't be expanded fast enough either.

*From the book: "Moving Minds: Conservatives and Public Transportation", pg. 162

[cowboyeagle05]

The Trains add capacity they don't necessarily keep the highways open of traffic. Lets say we canceled the trains right now we would surely add to that already bottled neck highways and make rush hour last even longer than it already. No to mention force people to look for jobs elsewhere. We all know most people would rather drive their own cars at least in Dallas anyways but we can not build highways for all those people to be able to drive everywhere they want and get to work at the same time. The multi-transit options just opens up alternative ways to move people around. While one system might be backed up due to a wreck the other hopefully keeps moving along hopefully not held to the same issues. The Highways are a necessary evil in some peoples eyes and so are the other options trains, planes, cars, boats.

[CasperITL]

Source? Whose cars are those that are parked at all the stations? It's true that most people who ride buses are people who don't have a car. But you'll find a different picture for the train riders. Most train riders do have cars.*

And most of the traffic growth is from our growing region, the fastest in the nation I might add. DART can't and isn't expanding fast enough to cover that growth. But then again, our highways can't be expanded fast enough either.

*From the book: "Moving Minds: Conservatives and Public Transportation", pg. 162


http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-dart-bond.htm

Don't read the link, you will be furious.

[mjblazin]

Is the point that DART should have a issued a revolving series of 10 year, 5 year bonds taking advantage of lower short term rates? Normally it's best practice to match funding with the use. We have no idea what the next 20-30 years will bring for interest rates. I can't fault DART for not taking that risk. If rates are lower, then you can refinance at 10 year, 20 year points over the 30 years.

[CasperITL]

Is the point that DART should have a issued a revolving series of 10 year, 5 year bonds taking advantage of lower short term rates? Normally it's best practice to match funding with the use. We have no idea what the next 20-30 years will bring for interest rates. I can't fault DART for not taking that risk. If rates are lower, then you can refinance at 10 year, 20 year points over the 30 years.

Well, did the gamble of accelerating expansion plans in 2000 pan out? It moved the station completions up 4 years. In that extra four years, what was gained. Now with Plano wanting to drop DART altogether, I would chalk that up as a failure. An expensive one. The Plano vote would not happen toll 2014.

[mjblazin]

The whole article that you cited was about amortizing the the incremental interest expense over the incremental reduction in traffic. Consequently I thought the incremental interest expense was your problem. Was there something else in the article?

[AeroD]

Well, did the gamble of accelerating expansion plans in 2000 pan out? It moved the station completions up 4 years. In that extra four years, what was gained. Now with Plano wanting to drop DART altogether, I would chalk that up as a failure. An expensive one. The Plano vote would not happen toll 2014.

Plano wanting to drop out of DART? Yeah, I read that opinion piece by that one guy in Plano, who thinks Plano is going to hell-in-a-hand-basket. But based on the parking lots at Parker Road and George Bush, that probably won't be happening anytime soon.

[CasperITL]

Plano wanting to drop out of DART? Yeah, I read that opinion piece by that one guy in Plano, who thinks Plano is going to hell-in-a-hand-basket. But based on the parking lots at Parker Road and George Bush, that probably won't be happening anytime soon.


It's more than just one guy

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/DART-to-Plano-Youll-Still-Owe-If-You-Drop-Sales-Tax-89305212.html

DART to Plano: You'll Still Owe If You Drop Sales Tax
Plano considers leaving DART
By KEN KALTHOFF


Dallas Area Rapid Transit says that even if Plano votes to withdraw from the agency, the city will still owe debt payments for years to come.

Plano officials asked for information about leaving DART after some citizens complained about sales taxes for a service they don’t use.

DART is supported mostly by a penny sales tax in 13 member cities.

“We had citizen inquiries, and we try to be responsive to citizen inquiries,” Plano City Manager Tom Muehlenbeck said.

DART officials say Plano could not hold an election on leaving the transit agency until 2014. And even if the referendum passes, the city would still be obligated to pay a share of outstanding DART debts for the next 10 to 15 years.

“Those are simply the facts,” DART spokesman Morgan Lyons said. “They asked us what would happen under statute and what the rules were.”

Lyons said the transit agency’s long-range plans call for expanding the rail system serving Plano with connections to Fort Worth.

But sales taxes for the entire DART region have lagged, causing concern about any long-range expansion.

“We want to keep all of the cities in,” Lyons said. “We think we are a stronger system with all of those connections. There are a lot of cities that are currently not part of DART that want access to the system.”

Downtown Plano has thrived in the past several years since the arrival of DART rail. The area around the downtown rail station has seen new apartment and retail construction, and older businesses report an increase in customers.

“All the other cities around here are envious, because it does bring in more traffic,” said Susan Steblein, the owner of Nature’s Finest Art.

She said her 8-year-old shop has been doing well recently and is angry to hear talk about Plano dropping DART.

“They pull out? I pull out. I guarantee it,” Steblein said.

The Plano City Council will decide whether to move forward, but the city manager said he does not recommend leaving DART.

“The facts are awfully clear," Muehlenbeck said. "You’re not going to have any service, but your citizens are still going to be taxed for it. Is that a good deal? I don’t think so."

[NThomas]

It's more than just one guy

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/business/DART-to-Plano-Youll-Still-Owe-If-You-Drop-Sales-Tax-89305212.html

DART to Plano: You'll Still Owe If You Drop Sales Tax
Plano considers leaving DART
By KEN KALTHOFF

Plano officials asked for information about leaving DART after some citizens complained about sales taxes for a service they don’t use.


Sorry but it's pretty obvious this is West Plano talking. Anything that is taxed is being scrutinized by the tea parties and in Plano, DART is an easy target.

[CasperITL]

Sorry but it's pretty obvious this is West Plano talking. Anything that is taxed is being scrutinized by the tea parties and in Plano, DART is an easy target.

West Plano votes.

Remember the wave of stories about Plano people being pissed at Allen and Mckinney residents for clogging up nearby residential neighborhoods near DART stations with vehicles?

They want their penny back? They can have it. They can start with building their own county hospital!

[NThomas]

West Plano votes.

Remember the wave of stories about Plano people being pissed at Allen and Mckinney residents for clogging up nearby residential neighborhoods near DART stations with vehicles?

They want their penny back? They can have it. They can start with building their own county hospital!
Not only do they vote, the vote in droves. If they really wanted out of DART, it could happen, but I have a feeling we'd see a mad dash on voter registration for East Plano to keep their transportation.

The "freeloaders" in Allen, Frisco & McKinney, my unrealistic solution: Plano annexes all three and renames itself Collin, Texas. It'd be the county seat, 28 most populous city in the nation, 7th in the state, and third in the region. Plus they'd all pay into DART...

...Who should look into more ways to bringing in money in addition to cutbacks. Has the idea for 1/2 cent sales tax limited system memberships been thrown around as a way to decrease the shortfall (ex.:Mesquite, Grand Prarie, Coppell)? DART seems to be taking the approach of just cutting back. This might actually be the best time for limited expansion. Mesquite wants rail only? Sure, just start paying in now and in the meantime, commuter express buses act as a precursor. Better yet, if Mesquite gets too anxious and pulls out, DART can just take the money and run without ever having to build the Scyne Rd branch or an extension to Mesquite. That line will be dependent on D2 and might include a shift of the Orange Line (non-peak) from the Green Line's "existing" tracks.

[saxman66]

http://www.publicpurpose.com/ut-dart-bond.htm

Don't read the link, you will be furious.

Yeah, thanks for the link from one of the most anti-transit proponent out there. He'll spin any type of data to make it look the way he wants, and the sources he uses comes from other anti-transit groups. So you just end up going in circles looking at his data.

[AeroD]

Remember the wave of stories about Plano people being pissed at Allen and Mckinney residents for clogging up nearby residential neighborhoods near DART stations with vehicles?

That is what we call in French, "Merde de Vache."

There are no residential neighborhoods around the Bush Station. The Parker Road station is completely surrounded by commercial development. The nearest residential area to park is behind the Fiesta at Parker and Greenville. I highly doubt anybody makes that trek.

The downtown station has no parking.

[CasperITL]

That is what we call in French, "Merde de Vache."

There are no residential neighborhoods around the Bush Station. The Parker Road station is completely surrounded by commercial development. The nearest residential area to park is behind the Fiesta at Parker and Greenville. I highly doubt anybody makes that trek.

The downtown station has no parking.

Ahem. The Downtown Plano station is surrounded by residential areas. You can throw a rock from the Downtown platform and hit a home.

Here is the story

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/061109dnmetdartparking.691e30a4.html

In Texas, we call your post, "putting your head up your ass". Not sure how that translates to French.

[AeroD]

Ahem. The Downtown Plano station is surrounded by residential areas. You can throw a rock from the Downtown platform and hit a home.

Here is the story

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/061109dnmetdartparking.691e30a4.html

In Texas, we call your post, "putting your head up your ass". Not sure how that translates to French.

Read your own article. There is nothing in there about people parking in residential areas in Plano to get to a DART station. It does not even mention the downtown Plano station.

XOXOXO

[mjblazin]

The comments in the cited article make other good points: given the amount of money spent by the Federal Government and the sales taxes paid by non-DART residents buying goods in DART jurisdictions, everyone in the metroplex pays into DART.

Spending anyone's money on bigger lots is a dumb idea in any case. Ride the shuttle buses (3XX,4XX, 5XX) and stop driving to the stations. That's why we have them.

[CasperITL]

Read your own article. There is nothing in there about people parking in residential areas in Plano to get to a DART station. It does not even mention the downtown Plano station.

XOXOXO

But many of the tickets were written there!

[Rodger Jones]

Installing turnstiles and ending the "honor system" for DART rail riders is one idea you hear a lot for how DART can climb out of its financial pit.

I have real doubts, mostly because of the space that would be taken on sidewalks downtown to cordon off areas for ticketed passengers waiting to board. It would be cramped and ugly.

But would it be viable to have a setup whereby DART would proclaim downtown a fare-free zone in which anyone could board without a ticket, and then build turnstiles at all other stations? Ticket checkers could concentrate on trains leaving downtown and only spot check trains elsewhere in the system trains for turnstile jumpers.

Portland has a fare-free zone -- why not here?

Discussion on Dallas Transportation: http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/03/can-dart-do-away-with-honor-sy.html

[electricron]

Installing turnstiles and ending the "honor system" for DART rail riders is one idea you hear a lot for how DART can climb out of its financial pit.

I have real doubts, mostly because of the space that would be taken on sidewalks downtown to cordon off areas for ticketed passengers waiting to board. It would be cramped and ugly.

But would it be viable to have a setup whereby DART would proclaim downtown a fare-free zone in which anyone could board without a ticket, and then build turnstiles at all other stations? Ticket checkers could concentrate on trains leaving downtown and only spot check trains elsewhere in the system trains for turnstile jumpers.

Portland has a fare-free zone -- why not here?

Discussion on Dallas Transportation: http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/03/can-dart-do-away-with-honor-sy.html


What a great solution you found for DART financial woes. Here's DART looking at ways to cut expenses because sales tax revenues are down, and you want to give away free rides downtown. :stupid:

I can't think of a faster way to drive DART into bankruptcy.

My solution is to make fare zones, which the TRE has but DART light rail doesn't. Even Portland's TriMet has fare zones, that's why they can afford free fare zones downtown. I wouldn't necessarily use the county line like the TRE, but I would use physical barriers well recognized by everyone; like Loop 12, LBJ Freeway, Beltline Road, or George Bush Turnpike. Yes, fare zones will complicate matters, but should raise fare revenues, possibly to a point where service cuts aren't needed anymore...... :cool:

[dfwcre8tive]

Installing turnstiles and ending the "honor system" for DART rail riders is one idea you hear a lot for how DART can climb out of its financial pit.

I have real doubts, mostly because of the space that would be taken on sidewalks downtown to cordon off areas for ticketed passengers waiting to board. It would be cramped and ugly.

But would it be viable to have a setup whereby DART would proclaim downtown a fare-free zone in which anyone could board without a ticket, and then build turnstiles at all other stations? Ticket checkers could concentrate on trains leaving downtown and only spot check trains elsewhere in the system trains for turnstile jumpers.

Portland has a fare-free zone -- why not here?

Discussion on Dallas Transportation: http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/03/can-dart-do-away-with-honor-sy.html

Creating a fare-free zone is a good idea. I think the planners of the Downtown Dallas 360 Plan are suggesting something along those lines. DART eliminated the "reduced fare within the CBD" ticket when they changed their fares last fall. Now it costs the same amount to travel 2 stops as it does to travel all the way to Plano.

[dfwcre8tive]

What a great solution you found for DART financial woes. Here's DART looking at way to cut expenses because sales tax revenues are down, and you want to give away free rides downtown. :stupid:

I can't think of a faster way to drive DART into bankruptcy.

My solution is to make fare zones, which the TRE has but DART light rail doesn't. Even Portland's TriMet has fare zones, that's why they can afford free fare zones downtown. I wouldn't necessarily use county lines, but I would use physical barriers well recognized by everyone, like Loop 12, LBJ Freeway, Beltline Road, or George Bush Turnpike. Yes, fare zones will complicate matters, but should raise fare revenues, possibly to a point where service cuts aren't needed anymore...... :cool:

Fare zones are also a good idea.

[saxman66]

I think DART should install pay for long-term parking at some of the outlaying stations. Right now you can't park overnight and I know lots of people would like to including me. That way I can park at a station and go out of town for a few days from the airport. Atlanta does this. They have free daily parking and pay for overnight parking. It was a little cheaper than parking at the airport and I just take the train to the airport.

[RobertB]

Fare zones are such a good idea, DART got rid of them years ago. ;) It's hard enough for the bus drivers to get people to pay the fares they're supposed to pay, without trying to memorize who got on where. Not to mention the fact that fare zone enforcement means you have to lock the back door. I don't see fare zones coming back.

We've beaten the turnstile idea to death -- put them in and the DART stations would look like crap. Hire more DART cops at $50k a piece plus benefits, and you've lost much more than you've gained. The last 20% takes 80% of your effort -- it's not worth it. Just accept the fact that some people aren't as honest as you, but as hard as it may be to believe, most people aren't out to rip you off.

Things that might work:

* Pay for parking, as suggested above. Keep it cheap, let me park overnight. Don't do anything stupid like DC did (I've heard their parking system is full of fail). Sweeten the deal -- make it free with a Monthly Pass. Hook it up to the TollTag systems. And leave the back part of the lot free -- though that part will always be full!

* Charge express fare for trains. It'll be sad, but fair. The train replaced the express buses with *better* service, so it's appropriate to charge a higher price. None of the changes will be easy to swallow, but this one is only fair.

* Less likely: multiple fare levels by route. The #183 to Addison Transit Center is very nearly an express route, a twin to the #205. It would be fair -- not great, but fair -- to charge an in-between fare. Or perhaps a higher fare should be charged for routes that cost more to run, somewhat like "Flex" service is charged at an Express rate. But more complexity can lead to a point of diminishing returns (see also: fare zones), so this may be a non-starter. There's also the issue of suburban angst: if high-cost runs end up being defined as "buses that run empty", then the suburban routes would bear the brunt of the higher charges.

[Mballar]

Increased advertising on, inside, and around DART trains, buses, stations and stops. Other than the few wrapped buses I see here and there, I don't see DART even scratching the surface of this revenue stream.

[NThomas]

I like that idea of overnight parking. With the Orange Line connecting to DFW and the TRE also, park and ride at the station instead of the airport sounds alot better.

[CasperITL]

Increased advertising on, inside, and around DART trains, buses, stations and stops. Other than the few wrapped buses I see here and there, I don't see DART even scratching the surface of this revenue stream.

Advertising money is in the ditch. TV and print advertising are very inexpensive these days. A wrapped bus is very expensive compared to blocks of ads on TV.

[thumpcbd]

I like that idea of overnight parking. With the Orange Line connecting to DFW and the TRE also, park and ride at the station instead of the airport sounds alot better.

ATL has a couple of MARTA stops that provide secured, overnight parking, which then allow you to ride the MARTA to the airport and travel. No worrys about parking, or traffic on the way to the air port and parking is substantially cheeper then at the airport. It's a win-win.

[palchik]

http://lewisvilleblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/04/dcta-experiences-record-riders.html

[aygriffith]

I think DART should install pay for long-term parking at some of the outlaying stations. Right now you can't park overnight and I know lots of people would like to including me. That way I can park at a station and go out of town for a few days from the airport. Atlanta does this. They have free daily parking and pay for overnight parking. It was a little cheaper than parking at the airport and I just take the train to the airport.

While the the garages at Perimeter and off of GA400 are nice I would imagine that they are part of the reason that MARTA won't be building a new heavy rail line of any significance for probably another two decades. They can't even get up to Alpharetta with the current GA400 line.

I'm sure someone will correct me if my numbers are wrong but last I remember a surface parking lot costs about 6 dollars a sq ft... a covered multi story parking garage costs 26 to 28 dollars a sq ft. And the costs are higher under 500 spots. Haven't worked with multi story parking in a long time but I'm sure those number still hold true or cost 10/15 percent more.

The nicest thing Marta has are the parking garages... Sorry Tam