Uptown: Katy Subway

[RobertB]

The Katy Trail construction on the north end of the Victory area seems to be moving apace (I've always wanted to say that). Of course, since the old MKT ROW is now a ped/bike/jog trail, it's too late to use it for LRT. The trail is clearly a Good Thing -- weaning us from our addiction to oil is a multi-faceted task, with pedestrian-friendly recreation one of the facets.

But looking at the southern end of the trail got me to thinking (and you know how dangerous that can be). On the scenic bluff, you have the trailhead, Baby Doe's Matchless Mine (http://travel.yahoo.com/p-travelguide-2742286-baby_doe_s_dallas-i), and the Coors Waterfall billboard. All this is right there by the sweeping curve of Stemmons Freeway -- it's much more a part of Dallas' "signature" than any bridge over the Trinity River will ever be.

Let's add the crowning touch. Make that bluff the entrance to Uptown's subway line: the Katy Subway.

Instead of digging a quarter-mile trench to go from surface to underground, tunnel directly into the side of the bluff. Give the tunnel entrance the DART architectural treatment -- make it look like something out of the 1800's, to go along with Baby Doe's. Easy connection to the existing Orange/Purple line just north of Victory, and complete flexibility to decide where you go from there.

I don't know the Uptown area as well as y'all, but the map on the Katy Trail (http://www.katytraildallas.org/maps.html) site shows that the trail will eventually extend from Victory Station to Mockingbird Station. It looks to me like that's a great subway routing as well... enter the bluff north of Victory, merge with the existing subway rails just south of Mockingbird. Future extensions should be easy to branch off of the Katy Subway, and M-Line connections will also help circulate riders to points of interest.

The trail is 3.5 miles, which means that the cost of the subway would be about $175 million plus $50 million per station (bake sale!). Station locations should be easy to determine -- just pick the Katy Trail access points that are closest to major residential/office/entertainment areas. I need suggestions from Uptown folks, though, before I obsessively-compulsively start downloading aerial views and marking them up.

Also, when I get a chance (and don't forget my camera, d'oh!), I'll take a picture of the bluff. If I'm feeling artistic, I'll try to draw a tunnel entrance... let's hope, though, that someone with some actual artistic ability beats me to that one.

[RobertB]

Told you I was obsessing.

This is a composite aerial photo from dfwmaps.com showing the Baby Doe's area. There have been major changes since this picture was taken in 2003! The freight lines were moved to the west to make room for the Victory Spur -- a rather impressive operation. So I've drawn in green a very approximate location of the new freight lines, and in red, the new DART lines. I've also highlighted the locations of Baby Doe's (that's an "authentic" looking roof, isn't it?), the Waterfall Billboard, and a DART bus heading into downtown via Harry Hines. The Katy Trail is clearly visible as a sweeping curve on the top right side.

The space available for the junction isn't very large. It'll take a careful review of the following:

* The actual position of the freight and DART tracks.
* The exact topography, available in the NCTCOG topographic view (http://www.dfwmaps.com/index.asp?ExtentLeft=2486148&ExtentRight=2486960&ExtentTop=6977539.0537487&ExtentBottom=6976726.9542513&idCmd=&buffer=&x1=&x2=&y1=&y2=&tool=&click.x=&click.y=&Requests=on&selectpt.x=&selectpt.y=&selectpt.stat=&Address=&CityZip=&Label=&Aerial03=on&Cmd=Pan&msize=large&mapTheme=dfwmaps&mapOption=Regional_Features&CONTOURS=on&ROADS=off&clear_measurements.x=36&clear_measurements.y=8) of the area.
* DART's engineering drawings for the Orange/Purple extension.
* The Project Pegasus (http://www.projectpegasus.org/) plans for the Mixmaster reconstruction.

Do I have time to do this? Of course not. Will that stop me? What do you think? :)

[Mballar]

Let it go Man. . .Let it Go!!!

[jsoto3]

Intersting idea. A few other things to consider:

Either Baby Does goes away or the prime triangluar site just to the south (parking lot in photo, which is slated for an office tower) goes.

Also, it looks like there would be an at-grade crossing of Houston St right at the entrance to the tunnel. Perhaps not a big deal, but that street will get pretty busy once Victory is built out.

The tunnel would have to descend very quickly in order to clear Harry Hines. Also, I'm not sure exactly where it is, but Turtle Creek has a 15ft diameter diversion tunnel in the area. I believe it ties into the Old Trinity Meander across Stemmons. It might pose some problems.

[freewaytincan]

The tunnel would have to descend very quickly in order to clear Harry Hines. Also, I'm not sure exactly where it is, but Turtle Creek has a 15ft diameter diversion tunnel in the area. I believe it ties into the Old Trinity Meander across Stemmons. It might pose some problems.

Use Goat Hill as an advantage, giving a head start to get just below the surface without taking up precious ground space.

[drumguy8800]

haha, Goat Hill.

Some pictures of the Katy Trail, maybe providing some insight on the bluff: click (http://www.ovillachurchofchrist.com/derek/index.html?sub=katytrail2)

I think the only one on there that shows it is the one of Baby Does.. and I think it's too zoomed in. Oh well.

Is Baby Doe's closed?

[freewaytincan]

haha, Goat Hill.

You find that funny?

[RobertB]

The tunnel would have to descend very quickly in order to clear Harry Hines. Also, I'm not sure exactly where it is, but Turtle Creek has a 15ft diameter diversion tunnel in the area. I believe it ties into the Old Trinity Meander across Stemmons. It might pose some problems.
I've been looking as I drive the Stemmons-Tollway flyover, and I think the diversion tunnel must open up in Reverchon Park. This aerial view shows the old Turtle Creek meanders on the south side of Stemmons, but nothing after some pretty wide bridges into the park.

Fortunately, though, the park is a bit to the north of the Katy line. If I can figure out where Turtle Creek disappears, upstream from the park, I should be able to route the subway away from it. That's going to be important, because there are few things I can think of that go together as poorly as an underground electric rail tunnel and a large quantity of creek water.

[jsoto3]

In that attached aerial photo, you can see that Reverchon Park is constructed atop Turtle Creek. The creek daylights again just west of Maple St. (can't see in photo because of the trees). I am not sure if this little segment through the park is the tunnel or if it is more extensive. Never-the-less, I think as long as you stay directly below Katy Trail or to the south, you'll be okay.

[texcolo]

The meandering stream on the west side of I-35E is actually the old bed of the Trinity River. The river was straightened out to make room for the thriving warehouse district we see today.

[tamtagon]

In my ideal Project Pegasus, the intersection of Interstate 35, Harry Hines Blvd, the Tollway and Oaklawn is streamlined and handled mostly in a trench. Reverchon Park is expanded over the trench, incorporates Goat Hill and meets Trinity River Park along the historical course of Turtle Creek.

[RobertB]

Looks like bad news for the Goat Hill Tunnel idea. I drove by and spent 15 minutes checking out the lay of the land this morning. Took lots of pictures that I don't have time to edit, but here's the problem: the empty space at the end of the Victory parking lots isn't empty anymore. That's where DART put the massive power station that will pump the juice for the new LRT segment, as well as the new extension to the north. By the time you get past that, you no longer have room for a graceful turn into the side of the hill below Baby Doe's. Instead, you're on the other side of the Waterfall Billboard, where the hill isn't tall enough for a tunnel entrance.

If I get a chance, I'll put the pictures together to show what I'm up against, and see if y'all can find any alternatives.

[RobertB]

There may be just enough room to build a Goat Hill tunnel entrance for a Katy Subway line, but it would be a close fit between the edge of the "traction power station" and an appropriately steep cliff face.

But that may not be the biggest problem. It may be that a Katy Subway routing just doesn't give enough bang for the buck, compared with a routing that heads Uptown directly from Downtown.

I finally figured out how to get dfwmaps.com to show land use patterns. In the map below, red is office, pink is retail & hotel, and orange is multi-family. Those are the highest-density uses, and you've got to have high density development to justify a subway. The more time the subway is "in the zone", the more efficient use you're making of your $50 million a mile.

The Katy Trail alignment looks good from Cedar Springs (called SH-289 for no good reason on this map) all the way to Lemmon. But I think we're better off taking Cedar Springs on south all the way to the Downtown subway lines, instead of cutting off to north of Victory.

Now, there's still the problem of where to go on the north end of Uptown. Once you're north of Haskell/Blackburn, you really run out of high-density development. Extending the subway up Lemmon to the Tollway and points north is a 50-year dream that is outside the scope of this plan. Plus, we'll already have Knox/Henderson Station serving the area... or will we?

Here's an idea: keep the existing Mockingbird-Cityplace-Downtown alignment as-is -- an express route to downtown. The Uptown Line, then, is designed as a "local" subway.

From Mockingbird Station, the Uptown Line branches off to the west, following the Katy Trail. Stations at Knox and Fitzhugh would provide better service to retail and attractions than the original Knox/Henderson Station under Central. Altogether, there would be 5-7 stations between Mockingbird and Downtown.

I'm sure to go into more detail, incorporating elements from the other routings in the Uptown Subway thread, but I'm really, really going to try to get some work done today. The kind I get paid to do in real life, that is.

Image notes: the first picture is fully detailed, but it's half a meg in size. The second picture (with the much larger legend) is much smaller. Handy for dialup connections, but you can't read the street names at that scale.

[zigwamo]

Here's an idea: keep the existing Mockingbird-Cityplace-Downtown alignment as-is -- an express route to downtown. The Uptown Line, then, is designed as a "local" subway.

From Mockingbird Station, the Uptown Line branches off to the west, following the Katy Trail. Stations at Knox and Fitzhugh would provide better service to retail and attractions than the original Knox/Henderson Station under Central. Altogether, there would be 5-7 stations between Mockingbird and Downtown.

I'm dying for a line like this. Of course, the other possibility would be to extend the trolley all the way to knox (or even to Mockingbird?). I'd prefer your subway line myself.

[RobertB]

I just posted a reference to this thread in the big Victory Project thread, and realized I never got around to drawing out the Uptown "Local" Subway line (with 5-7 stops between Mockingbird and Downtown), and how it parallels and compliments the existing "Express" subway line (with just one stop). I haven't put stations on the map, largely because I don't know Uptown well enough to place them, but I'm sure folks will have ideas where to put them. Enjoy!