Knox Henderson DART Station

[US75Guy]

I understand there is space in the DART tunnel for inclusion in the future of a station at Knox-Henderson. IS this proposal long-since dead, or is there some way to re-start this proposal. What was the reason for not including this stop?

[tamtagon]

Neighborhood residents took a vote and decided against opening this station. They didnt want the neighborhood to change. In the future, they will have have the opportunity to have the station included in DART's expansion plans.

[freewaytincan]

Neighborhood residents took a vote and decided against opening this station. They didnt want the neighborhood to change. In the future, they will have have the opportunity to have the station included in DART's expansion plans.

And hey, maybe then they'll realize that wow, change doesn't suck!

[aceplace]

What I heard...

The residents that opposed the station a long time ago....

have all moved away...

[bloodandpopcorn]

I'd rather get a trolley extention to Knox than a subway stop. Eventually both would be preferable, but I think in the short term trolley service would be nicer. And maybe there would be space along that extention for another trolley barn?

[freewaytincan]

What I heard...
The residents that opposed the station a long time ago....
have all moved away...

My point exactly. Like the CGM Realty Fund ads.


I'd rather get a trolley extention to Knox than a subway stop. Eventually both would be preforable, but I think in the short term trolley service would be nicer. And maybe there would be space along that extention for another trolley barn?

I think you have a point there.

[drumguy8800]

I'd rather get a trolley extention to Knox than a subway stop. Eventually both would be preforable, but I think in the short term trolley service would be nicer. And maybe there would be space along that extention for another trolley barn?

As long as they're modern trolley cars.. sure. I don't enjoy riding down the M-Line. I did it once for the experience, but I don't view it as an effective mode of transportation. It seems to ride too high, is squeaky, and the conductor talks a bunch.. And you never know when one's gonna come by.

A modern system similar to Portland's would be great and would attract a lot more people. You could even dress up the modern cars to make em look all.. old.

[freewaytincan]

As long as they're modern trolley cars.. sure. I don't enjoy riding down the M-Line. I did it once for the experience, but I don't view it as an effective mode of transportation. It seems to ride too high, is squeaky, and the conductor talks a bunch.. And you never know when one's gonna come by.

A modern system similar to Portland's would be great and would attract a lot more people. You could even dress up the modern cars to make em look all.. old.

Gosh you can be whiny at times. At least about this topic.

[RobertB]

I'd rather get a trolley extention to Knox than a subway stop. Eventually both would be preferable, but I think in the short term trolley service would be nicer. And maybe there would be space along that extention for another trolley barn?
Actually, I suspect it would be easier to open the station than to extend the trolley. As the M-Line guy (Haretip?) pointed out, every time you see a manhole cover in the street, think another million dollars to move it out of the way for trolley tracks.

On the other hand, the K-H station is already roughed out in the earth, 100 feet below Central Expressway. I don't know how much it will cost to finish it out, and I don't know if they still need to bore/blast the passenger access shafts, but I suspect it'll be around the same price as extending the trolley. Plus, you don't have to listen to people whine about the road construction.

I'd love to hear some hard numbers, though.

Cool DART story: when the tunnel first opened, the kids and I stood at the front of the car, watching the tunnel ahead. I'd been telling the kids about the future K-H station when the driver went by, so he gave us a little surprise by slowing down as we passed it! It was fascinating to see (though briefly) the open space carved out of the solid rock, with only the train's headlights for illumination.

DART ought to have late-night walking tours of the subway, with a midnight snack at the future station. That would be too cool.

[Mballar]

You can expect to see completion of the Orange and Purple lines, as well as the extention of the Blue line to Rowlett before you'll see completion of the Knox-Henderson Station. Since they (residents living around Knox-Henderson) didn't want the station at first, DART has placed this project at the "back of the line" in terms of construction. DART has a priority NOW to provide rail service to those who have been waiting for years to see trains rolling in their communities (eg. Carrollton, Rowlett, Irving, DFW Airport). In other words, Don't expect to see an operational Knox-Henderson Station until at least 2015, unless of course, Some major private funding comes along in the meantime.

[texcolo]

I wished they'd put the station in. I always thought that City Place and Mockingbird were way too far apart not to have another station in between them.

[tamtagon]

For some reason, I associate a $100 milion price tag to open the K/H station. The relative price is bound to be higher once the station becomes part of the expansion plan, in a decade. I'd certainly prefer to have that station today, but it will be interesting to see how the area evolves.

[RobertB]

For some reason, I associate a $100 milion price tag to open the K/H station. The relative price is bound to be higher once the station becomes part of the expansion plan, in a decade. I'd certainly prefer to have that station today, but it will be interesting to see how the area evolves.
I don't think it could be more than the $50 million figure given as the cost of the Mockingbird station (see the Downtown Subway threads for source). It should be less, since that $50 mill should include some costs already borne, such as blasting out a wide spot in the tunnel.

[tamtagon]

I don't think it could be more than the $50 million figure given as the cost of the Mockingbird station (see the Downtown Subway threads for source). It should be less, since that $50 mill should include some costs already borne, such as blasting out a wide spot in the tunnel.

Ya, I'm not really sure where 100 came from. How much did the Citiplace station cost? That's probably what K/H will cost, relatively.

[RobertB]

Ya, I'm not really sure where 100 came from. How much did the Citiplace station cost? That's probably what K/H will cost, relatively.
Oops. I meant to say Cityplace, not Mockingbird, for 50 mill. Here are the links from the Downtown Subway discussion:


Dallas light rail on a roll against the odds
http://www.lightrailnow.org/news/n_000001.htm
I had to look to a San Antonio newspaper archive (from 2000) for this key number: "$122 million for a 3.25-mile tunnel from downtown to Mockingbird Lane." That's about $40 million per mile. There may be more information at http://www.lightrailnow.org/ (a Texas-based non-profit) when I have time to check it out in detail. Anyone from the site on this board?

Another tidbit at the end of this page:
http://www.dallassky.com/constructionnews.htm
"$50 million Cityplace subway station was opened Dec. 18, 2000"

Plus, the estimated cost for a 2-mile tunnel plus station for Love Field is $160 million, which adds up to the figures I used to estimate the cost of the downtown subway system: $50 million per mile of bored tunnel, plus $50 million per station. The additional $10 million probably comes from the complexity of tunneling under an active passenger airport & runway.

[Lakewooder]

ARRRGH! I have posted before that many of the residents wanted the station, and the neighborhood association 'leaders' took it upon themselves to publicly oppose the station.

I was active in the Cochran Heights Association at the time and I cannot ever remember it being put to a vote. In fact, I remember several people being for it. I cannot speak for Vickery Place, but there were some very vocal M Street people then who got all those speed bumps put in right about that time. I hate those things.

Another issue was why Park Cities was getting a sound wall during the Central reconstruction and we weren't (the M Street sound wall was built much later). If we had gotten the soundwall, I think the subway station would have had very little if any opposition - the thinking being that any 'undesirables' would have been kept from roaming into the neighborhood by the wall...

[woodrg0]

i operate on sundays...i guaruntee you i will never hear me say a word...

as for the squeaks, we need money to make the cars run correctly, then we can look into noise abatement.

additionally, we are a 501c3 non-profit run and maintained by volunteers. think of us as a functioning transportation museum rather than a modern transportation system. we have "huge" (1000s/yr) numbers of people who specifically visit in order to see the vintage equipment. "old-looking," new rolling stock would not be the same. i agree that it would be more pleasant to run new equipment, but that's not the point of the organization.

:)




As long as they're modern trolley cars.. sure. I don't enjoy riding down the M-Line. I did it once for the experience, but I don't view it as an effective mode of transportation. It seems to ride too high, is squeaky, and the conductor talks a bunch.. And you never know when one's gonna come by.

A modern system similar to Portland's would be great and would attract a lot more people. You could even dress up the modern cars to make em look all.. old.

[drumguy8800]

woodgr0- this picture was taken on a sunday. are you in it?

http://www.ovillachurchofchrist.com/derek/collection/07110412s.jpg

[Random Traffic Guy]

What was the reason for not including this stop?
The other reason is that it would slow even more the already-creeping pace of the light rail trains... As a semi-regular train rider I'll take all the speed I can get. Justifying taking the train is tough as it is.

[gc]

^ When it comes to navigating through DTD, I agree with you RTG. It would be a mistake to add so many stops that we lose the efficiency of using the train!

By the way, welcome to the forum RTG.

[tamtagon]

Werent all the stations configured to accommodate "local" and "express" trains?

Especially during worker boy rush hours, express trains from the suburbs should leapfrog over some of the intermediate stations not serving major job centers.

[texman]

Werent all the stations configured to accommodate "local" and "express" trains?

Especially during worker boy rush hours, express trains from the suburbs should leapfrog over some of the intermediate stations not serving major job centers.

Didn't we have this convo. before on some other thread. I don't know if its possible to run express trains with out a third track through the stations.

[Boredkid]

It still going to cost the much to add the station??

[FoUTASportscaster]

Likely more after inflation adjustment and costs of construction materials have risen. At the same time, there is no mention of this in 2030 plan, so likely no Knox-Henderson station by 2030.

[kenc]

Likely more after inflation adjustment and costs of construction materials have risen. At the same time, there is no mention of this in 2030 plan, so likely no Knox-Henderson station by 2030.

It's really too bad this station got canned before it could get built ( by whoever may have been responsible - residents - whoever). I live within a 5-6 minute walk of K-H and this would be "my" station if there were one.

I agree frequent stations make the train slower....but I think the additional access to the tens of thousands of people who live in this area and would use the train far outweigh the speed issue. A light rail system such as ours will never move people as quickly as an underground heavy-rail subway system. They are two different animals.

I waded through the 2030 plan myself - not exactly "light" reading, and I was surprised not to find this station included somewhere in that document.

[FoUTASportscaster]

As near as I can decipher, this isn't nixed. It's just that there are cities who have said we need rail ASAP. So when these people went out of their way to say they didn't want DART, that puts them at the end of the line. People in South Dallas want the Blue Line extended to I-20 and want the Red Line extended as well. People in Rowlett want the Blue Line extended to their city. People in Addison want the Cotton Belt Line or 635 Line built to their city. Then the people in East Dallas, West Dallas and the Intermodal Port haven't said we don't want rail service.
Once all that is taken care of, then you might see a Knox-Henderson Station.

[sasquatch69]

From what I have read, there is already space underground along the DART line tunnel for a Knox-Henderson station, though it would obviously take millions to finish it out and make connections to surface level. I ride the train nearly every day and haven't noticed any area along that stretch that looked like it was larger than the usual tunnel. What currently exists underground, and where would it connect to the surface?

Also, there are emergency exit doors all along the tunnel. Where do they come out?

[RobertB]

When the subway first opened, the kids and I stood right behind the driver's window, looking at the tunnel. Seeing us, and possibly hearing me explain to the kids about the roughed-out but unbuilt subway station, he slowed down as he passed so we could see it in his headlights. It was really just a wide place in the rock, no fixtures or anything. Of course, you don't get wide places in solid rock 10 stories below ground level by accident, so it was way cool!

But don't count on seeing it in person any time soon. The city of Dallas asked for a new Lake Highlands station, and will likely get it. Absent any requests for the Knox-Henderson station, which will cost much more than $10 million, there's no way DART will build it out. So your best bet is to bring your kids (or borrow someone else's) so that you'll have an excuse to stand in the front of the train and cup your hands to the window, hoping for a view of the wide spot in the train's headlights.

[CTroyMathis]

Unknown to most people, the Silver S6 Line of the ISS (Irving Rocket-Propelled Subway System) makes a "secret" stop at the Knox-Henderson Station. Secret, until the secret gets out by more word of mouth. Although it is an unfinished rocky mess, the patrons leaving the underground station at Texas Stadium do enjoy the express ride into the area. And, there are a bunch of ropes and brass poles that are used to get out of the Knox-Henderson station. Most people learn the hard way to travel light. No one makes the mistake more than once because no one wants to traverse the poles and ropes with extra gear on hand. On Saturdays, you can find hundreds of season ticket-holders field daying the place to make it less unsightly. Plus, it grows tiresome to arrive at the game with rock dust and earthworms all over you. Additionally, volunteers are looking at staffing the rocky station on gamedays to provide security to what they hope is a new locker room area to stow valuables and other items. The locker room is 50% built-out at this time, but, combination assemblies for the lockers are still in route from Ketchikan, Alaska.

Okay, sorry, back to the thread.

[freewaytincan]

Also, there are emergency exit doors all along the tunnel. Where do they come out?

Is it weird that I really want to go through those?

[dfwcre8tive]

i've noticed some side tunnels with lights when approaching Cityplace station. What are these used for?

[RobertB]

Is it weird that I really want to go through those?
No (http://www.uer.ca/forum_showthreads.asp?fid=1&catid=305).

[Haretip]

i've noticed some side tunnels with lights when approaching Cityplace station. What are these used for?

If I'm not mistaken, there are also some "blast tubes" that angle off to the side before you get to the CityPlace Station. Think of the LRV as blowing a pea through a straw, but instead of being pushed, the LRV is pushing a column of air. To reduce discomfort for riders waiting on the platform and possible damage to station doors, etc, these tubes lead to vents that are visible on the surface. You can still feel some of the air compression when the LRV approaches the station.

[rantanamo]

That's the best part about being in Cityplace on a hot day. That air is really cool.

[sasquatch69]

When the subway first opened, the kids and I stood right behind the driver's window, looking at the tunnel. Seeing us, and possibly hearing me explain to the kids about the roughed-out but unbuilt subway station, he slowed down as he passed so we could see it in his headlights. It was really just a wide place in the rock, no fixtures or anything. Of course, you don't get wide places in solid rock 10 stories below ground level by accident, so it was way cool!

I'll have to look for that. When I lived in London, I used to be able to spot some of the disused tube stations while hurtling through the tunnels, particularly the old British Museum station on the Central Line. Even though they were dimly lit, if you knew when and where to look you could see the platform, the ornate tile markers on the walls and even the "Way Out" staircase, covered in layers of grime.

A great link about the former stations:

http://www.underground-history.co.uk/front.php

[P-3]

From what I have read, there is already space underground along the DART line tunnel for a Knox-Henderson station, though it would obviously take millions to finish it out and make connections to surface level. I ride the train nearly every day and haven't noticed any area along that stretch that looked like it was larger than the usual tunnel. What currently exists underground, and where would it connect to the surface?

Also, there are emergency exit doors all along the tunnel. Where do they come out?

The Knox/Henderson station is shaped just like Cityplace only that what would be the platform area is covered by a big wall. The inside is hollow and there is stairs that lead all the way out to the sidewalk area on Willis street at the NB 75 service road. If you go by there and look you can see a little covered area over the sidewalk over the door. Looks just like a mini carport. The future station is one of the 2 emergency exits in the tunnel. The other is Cityplace station. Trust me you don't want to ever have to go up those stairs. It is a long way up to Willis Street and your legs will feel the workout. Knox/Henderson station is the lowest point in the tunnel and it's where you feel your ears pop when you are riding the train. So for those of you wanting to see that is when you want to look out the windows.

[freewaytincan]

I guess this would be it?

http://img267.imageshack.us/img267/6859/temprm7.jpg

[rantanamo]

Looking for it today, I noticed a distinguishable area of some length with what looked like either cinder or tile(was going fast through there, so that's my guess of what it was. Was KH station what I was looking at?

[RobertB]

Looking for it today, I noticed a distinguishable area of some length with what looked like either cinder or tile(was going fast through there, so that's my guess of what it was. Was KH station what I was looking at?
More than likely. The tunnel boring machines do nothing but make a circular hole through the rock. Any void space more than 5 feet from your nose was dug out on purpose. I think the walls are probably lined with concrete slurry or something similar, to prevent falling rocks and leaks. That would be why it looks a nondescript grey.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Yes, the interior, meaning the areas between the two tunnels, is cinder blocks. That's the part of the station that has been carved out.

[RobertB]

Yes, the interior, meaning the areas between the two tunnels, is cinder blocks. That's the part of the station that has been carved out.
That's interesting. I wonder if they were having problems with air pressure before they walled up those passageways? Imagine two trains approaching the cross passages... each one is pushing air into the other's path, perhaps doubling the pressure differential. I do remember that the ears-popping sensation was worse when the trains first started running, but I just figured I'd gotten used to it. Cool!

[sasquatch69]

I think you may be on to something, RobertB. During the first couple of years of train operation through those tunnels, there was a LOUD screeching sound along that stretch near the K-H station location, magnified as the trains picked up speed. That's been gone for a while now.

[sogod]

How much do you think it would cost to build a station here? Sounds like most of the heavy work is done, which the exception of tunnling up to the surface and putting in escalators and whatnot.

[FoUTASportscaster]

I've heard estimates of between 30-50 million.

[RobertB]

Cool -- I was wanting to post about the station but wondered if I'd ever find the thread.

I finally put on my "tourist" outfit and stood up at the front of the train last night, looking out the driver's window. Since it was after dark, he had his headlights on -- so the tunnel was fully illuminated. Right about the time my ears popped, Knox-Henderson Station came into view.

I'm glad someone mentioned (in another thread) that the station had been boarded up, because otherwise I wouldn't have recognized it. Going north and looking forward at 65mph, it looked like it had been literally boarded up -- with plywood sheeting. But on the southbound return, I sat by the inside window and watched the walls go by. It's clearly walled in with cinder blocks -- at that speed, you can't see the individual bricks, but you can see the horizontal lines of mortar flowing past.

It's too bad the station isn't visible any more, but it makes perfect sense. Quite a while back, the DMN ran a story about the DART cops who take a walk through the station every night after the last train, making sure nobody takes advantage of the tunnel's perpetual room-temperature atmosphere to get a good night's sleep. It's one thing to roust someone out of well-lit Cityplace Station, or even the many passageways between the tunnels (also brightly lit now -- is that new?). But finding someone who doesn't want to be found with a flashlight in an artificial cave a hundred feet underground is something else entirely -- until the station is built, the wall is an unfortunate neccesity.

[Random Traffic Guy]

IIRC, $50Mil was the ballpark number used when we were discussing Parkland underground station options with DART.

[Lakewooder]

The last number I heard was $22 million, but that was several years ago.

As I said on the other thread, back in the day a few neighborhood 'leaders' took it upon themselves to say
that the neighborhood didn't want it...there was no polling, no demonstrations or petitions against it, seemed it was all done very quietly, as I was going to neighborhood meetings regularly in those days...

[xen0blue]

I heard from someone I know who used to work for DART as an environmental engineer that in the early 90's, DART dug a big hole somewhere under knox or fitzhugh where they intended on making a subway station like cityplace under knox, but I think they changed their minds. Since the hole is still there, does anyone know of any plans to put it to use?

[LongonBigD]

Lots of info on that on another thread in this subject. Here's the one. http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2794/url] I would love for it to be built. That station would be about 2 blocks from me.

[Mballar]

As the area east of US75, between Henderson and Fitzhugh explodes with new construction projects, and becomes more dense, I'd like to think that developers/residents will push for an infill station to be built out at Knox/Henderson in the next five years (a la Lake Highlands Station). The ridership numbers would probably be better than at the Cityplace Station.