Fair Park Station - why thru downtown?

[RobertB]

I've wondered for quite a while why DART's projected routes for the line through the Fair Park area and on to Pleasant Grove always go through the existing downtown route?

Every day when I drive to work (from Kaufman), I see the sprawling DART rail yard... on the *east* side of I-45! If you'll look at the rail yard's location, east of the star on this map (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?ovi=1&zoom=7&mapdata=Jl9JS76xNqDP7u87OZw1Owbnit1Q3JpWyhqAmsL%2f 4QOREvjENeppy2oLMq2Ev%2b3LzGIj6yJLLTvRbZnQ8FGbXrew g7FszCCNvhJ24W9CifJfiAo%2fwKyQDMYhhv6Ky3FR0rlt48eC J52PL1UBYe7GRpOnyhnE9vUcUkV6oXAG%2bz8pBi40GTkgRW9W CGwrgqjwxp9suegRBkWK3PjToqGudHlGyQ2ESuvLjjUTz8rDFf AcMfFva7HopgopFmMWCITnJAFgpcUDblGSELe3VYdOfMVrfRvL zn2Aj6ZjaZ1M52sFtfLbs8hfuXlRXCiGj7IYzw6gyfiSUeUmLO 96%2bEPnsBIGUyj6pS2zPKFUsCBIrWUlrQnmWbUquSrdpayY3V zT4bioSfWLuecShHjZEbsWkyc0m6Z9wRHYqhTWMenRi0CJpIL3 FEbCPWBJuHNkd9h5koVPXQu0wUxM31tAhSKlzGIqtBVjlBf1bh oOvl4a3bo%3d), you'll see that the rail yard is closer to Fair Park than it is to the big turn before Cedars Station. And there are existing rail lines that run right into the heart of the Exposition Park neighborhood.

Yet the DART Current and Future Services (http://www.dart.org/maps/capprojmap.htm) map, like all the other maps I've seen, shows the route for Fair Park and points southeast (like me!) going through the existing transit mall, winding from Pearl Station through a torturous path through existing buildings and the Good-Latimer "art" bridge (discussed in detail in another thread). I can't imagine how this will work! The twists and turns from Pearl to the tunnel are ridiculous, but it looks like the screeching turns of the Pleasant Grove line would be just as bad.

Why not save some money -- a commodity in short supply -- and run the SE line around the edge of the rail yard to Fair Park and Pleasant Grove. The downside is that you've bypassed Deep Ellum, but I'd rather keep the Love Field tunnel alive instead. Serve Deep Ellum with a party-themed trolley-bus until there's a cheap way to add the direct leg to downtown... or better yet, run a REAL trolley from Fair Park station, down Main into downtown, and up St. Paul to meet MATA!

The rail ROW is already there... why not take the short route to Fair Park?

[freewaytincan]

I've wondered for quite a while why DART's projected routes for the line through the Fair Park area and on to Pleasant Grove always go through the existing downtown route?

That's because the rail is something of a hub system. Most of the rail will go through the downtown area.


The rail ROW is already there... why not take the short route to Fair Park?

That's mainly because the rails there are still used, and quite heavily as I understand it, by the freight rail services. It'd be like trying to get KCS to give up their Krum/Denton to southeast Dallas spur.

[RobertB]

That's because the rail is something of a hub system. Most of the rail will go through the downtown area.

Isn't that like saying, "it is because it is?" Is there some reason why rail *must* be a hub system -- especially if the alternative saves beaucoup bucks?


That's mainly because the rails there are still used, and quite heavily as I understand it, by the freight rail services. It'd be like trying to get KCS to give up their Krum/Denton to southeast Dallas spur.

That argument makes more sense. But it still seems like it would be easier to build a bridge along the edge of the railroad ROW, than to buy up overpriced property in Deep Ellum. On the other hand, I Am Not A Civil Engineer (though I wanted to be as a kid!).

[tamtagon]

The primary purpose of the rail system is to provide reliable, convenient transportation from the suburbs to job centers; one primary benefit is the inclusion of recreational destinations.

I agree that the tracks East of the CBD should handle public transportation, too. Specifically, a line origniating at Mockingbird Station - Greenville - Baylor - Fair Park -Cedars.

[RobertB]

I finally found the MIS page on DART's site, and found an interesting line on a map. The Executive Summary (available here: http://www.dart.org/seeis/seeistoc.htm ) shows the SE line going NE-SE at MLK station, parallel with Cullum Blvd. Going NE, the line makes a "Y" -- it turns north to Fair Park Station, AND continues NE, towards the north end of the rail yard.

I'm attaching the image (under 35k .gif). And I'm still reading the MIS, which perhaps I should have done before posting in the first place? But then, if all opinions were well-researched and all alternatives considered by each poster, there wouldn't be much of a discussion... :)

[rantanamo]

I think this is simply a case where Fair Park and DE themselves are simply not destination enough(whether that's work or play) to fully support breaking off elsewhere than at Pearl. I think a line parallel to LBJ is a different story though.

[jsoto3]

DART will not have to purchase ROW for a "tortuous" alignment through Deep Ellum as they already own the existing former Texas & Pacific ROW. I don't think the alignment is at all tortuous, and is probably the best:

click here for hi-res version (http://dallasmetropolis.com/exhibitionhall/data/500/13DART_SE_Line_Alignment_hi-res_.jpg)

http://dallasmetropolis.com/exhibitionhall/data/500/13DART_SE_Line_Alignment_lo-res_.jpg

[Lakewooder]

Hey! That Deep Ellum Station doesn't look like it's in Deep Ellum. Not Bryan Place, either. More like oldest Swiss Ave.

We're giving up the Good-Latimer tunnel for THIS?

[bloodandpopcorn]

Yeah, wow, what the hell? That's a three or four block walk to Deep Ellum! Why don't they put the station right before or right after the turn? That would at least be within a block. Oh well... it is right by the Latino Cultural Center, it appears. Maybe they're hoping this will make Deep Ellum expand...

Hell, the Baylor station is closer to parts of Deep Ellum than the Deep Ellum station! What's going on?

[Lakewooder]

Also, looks like the DE station is within 'spitting distance' of the Plaza of the Americas/Crozier Tech station (the first one after emerging from the subway). Aren't they a BIT too close?

[jsoto3]

OOPS! I goofed! Deep Ellum Station will infact be one block to the southeast. I will fix the above image.

[bloodandpopcorn]

It's a larger distance than it appears to be, but you're right, they should give it at least an extra block. But it is farther away than Pearl to St. Paul it appears. And with the turn, it will certainly take longer.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Oh! Ok. Well, that's not so bad then.

[jsoto3]

I fixed it. I also initially got Baylor Station wrong, but I fixed it as well.

[Lakewooder]

Thanks for fixing that, however the stations still don't seem to be located where the names would fit. Perhaps they should name the first stop "Gay Bath House Station."

[jsoto3]

FYI, see attached for remainder of alignment through Deep Ellum and Fair Park:

[jsoto3]

I think provisions should be made for another future station between Baylor Station and Fair Park Station, perhaps at Main St., near Double Wide. Also, see attached for my thoughts on the potential of DART around Fair Park in the future (new line and stations). These proposals are based on the idea that in 50-100 years this area could be much more dense (imagine the Back Bay/Fens/Pru of Boston).

[drumguy8800]

gah, jsoto, your map-making-skills are astounding. How will a second downtown line (Young street or Elm subway) hook up to all of this..?

[freewaytincan]

Yeah, wow, what the hell? That's a three or four block walk to Deep Ellum! Why don't they put the station right before or right after the turn? That would at least be within a block. Oh well... it is right by the Latino Cultural Center, it appears. Maybe they're hoping this will make Deep Ellum expand...

Hell, the Baylor station is closer to parts of Deep Ellum than the Deep Ellum station! What's going on?

Perhaps. They really do have it out for that tunnel, don't they? And the irony, that it's in the new Dallas promotional video!

[benben]

Great maps. Have the stations east of Fair Park been definitely determined? If so, what are the station locations in terms of street intersections?

[RobertB]

Great maps. Have the stations east of Fair Park been definitely determined? If so, what are the station locations in terms of street intersections?
I spent a couple of hours last night with the 156-page .pdf Preliminary Engineering document, Appendix D of the link I gave in a previous message ( http://www.dart.org/seeis/seeistoc.htm ). The station locations are precicely laid out, including expansion plans, as is every section of track. It's not detailed down to the foot -- just the centerline of each set of rails is noted -- but it's got information on how much fill/cut will be involved, how high the bridges will be, what roads will be modified or removed, etc.

But if all you need is the general location of each station, check out the much smaller Executive Summary document. It has a one-page map of the whole SE line with the stations marked. That page now decorates my wall.

Of course, these .pdf's won't include the latest changes... but they did give me a couple of insights.

* I still think DART should build MLK Station and Fair Park Station first. Connect them to the rest of the network via the already-planned spur to the S&I (Service & Inspection) yard. Fair Park Station is high-visibility, and DART needs to be sure people don't start thinking that rail success is "old news". And MLK station will be a huge convenience for the local neighborhood. Or is there some deep, dark secret in the S&I yard that the general public must never know?

* I think the problem with the Good-Latimer tunnel isn't that it wasn't built to last... it's that it wasn't *maintained* to last. Once the rail yard went away, there was no need to do the little things that have to be done -- I imagine that if there were a cathodic protection system at one time, it's long gone now. I'd like to know what area residents think of actually having an intersection at Gaston and Good-Latimer.

[Lakewooder]

There's so much that could be done in there, and I think it would really pay off:

Haskell Boulevard and Trolley Extension (would connect FP station and CityPlace station)

Uncover (parts of) Mill Creek and develop as per original Kessler Plan (He planned it to be like Turtle Creek)

AND Cowboy Stadium at the North End of International Blvd (opposite Big Tex where Main Stage is now): Looking at that aerial photo, it's amazing how much vacant land is in there.

Line Haskell Blvd from I-30 to FP with buildings in the fashion of Miami South Beach Hotels. These could be retail/condo/apt. This will give FP and the stadium freeway exposure/access

Design unique feature (maybe a roundabout and fountain?) for Parry/ Haskell/Trolley/DART turn intersection.

[drumguy8800]

Miami south beach? old east dallas? wha tha huh?

[Lakewooder]

OK OK, I mean 3-4-5-6 story buildings done in Art Deco, like the ones which line Ocean Drive in SoBe:

http://www.kasbah.com/images/guides/usa/miami-art-deco-district.gif http://www.ego.net/us/fl/miami/graphics/1.jpg Actually, this one is the next street over - cool bar


http://travelandbeach.com/images2/south2.jpg

Imagine the girl in the median of Haskell Blvd extension LOL

[Lakewooder]

Another good shot (almost every hotel/building has a sidewalk cafe)

http://www.grouptravelleader.com/9_2003/image/miami_nightscene.jpg
If you go, go in the door of the Colony (above) turn left and there's a great small L-shaped bar - I always meet fun people there. I also like the Raleigh Hotel Bar (hear it's being redone) It's up on Collins near the Delano (Ian Schrager/Phillipe Stark).

http://www.hotelview.com/stills/Raleigh_320x240_Ext.jpg

[Orlando]

Thank you jsoto for the excellent map. I thought the part you have in orange was going to be part of the mainline. Now we know that those will be the new yard leads on the east side of the yard.

[texcolo]

http://members.aol.com/mattwales/Calypso-Beach.gif