MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[dfwcre8tive]

Also, if they are running trains down and back like on St Paul, won't they will need to close off a lane of Olive to create a dedicated streetcar lane similar to St Paul? If they constructed the loop they would only need to lay track in the existing right lanes and run streetcars with current traffic. Is the plan to close the right lane like on St Paul?

[cowboyeagle05]

Also, if they are running trains down and back like on St Paul, won't they will need to close off a lane of Olive to create a dedicated streetcar lane similar to St Paul? If they constructed the loop they would only need to lay track in the existing right lanes and run streetcars with current traffic. Is the plan to close the right lane like on St Paul?

Where would they close the Loop you are talking about. Remember the extensions one primary goal is to connect to a DART station. If they continued down St Paul they would have to either loop before they get to a station or close the loop after passing the station which would increase the cost immensely. Making a streetcar crossing with the DART lines requires a lot of money and engineering that they don't really have a need for yet as a Old fashioned streetcar system. The length of trip is also very crucial and if the loop through Downtown adds too much time the system becomes inefficient.

Just remember to always follow the trail of money. The money for this extension was acquired and donated for connecting the system to DART trains directly within Downtown Dallas. Right now Uptown is not connected to Downtown really at all besides bus. They want people to be able to freely pass between Uptown and Downtown which is more important that forming a loop from St Paul, Ross, and Olive Street. which does not pass far enough into the core like Pearl Station.

Its about connecting the dots as and the Olive alignment Connects West Village, Uptown, LoMac, Arts District, Downtown, Pearl Station much better than continuing down St Paul at the current time.

[electricron]

Where would they close the Loop you are talking about. Remember the extensions one primary goal is to connect to a DART station. If they continued down St Paul they would have to either loop before they get to a station or close the loop after passing the station which would increase the cost immensely. Making a streetcar crossing with the DART lines requires a lot of money and engineering that they don't really have a need for yet as a Old fashioned streetcar system. The length of trip is also very crucial and if the loop through Downtown adds too much time the system becomes inefficient.

Just remember to always follow the trail of money. The money for this extension was acquired and donated for connecting the system to DART trains directly within Downtown Dallas. Right now Uptown is not connected to Downtown really at all besides bus. They want people to be able to freely pass between Uptown and Downtown which is more important that forming a loop from St Paul, Ross, and Olive Street. which does not pass far enough into the core like Pearl Station.

Its about connecting the dots as and the Olive alignment Connects West Village, Uptown, LoMac, Arts District, Downtown, Pearl Station much better than continuing down St Paul at the current time.

True. Plus when they or Dallas buys new streetcar vehicles,
(1) They could close the loop on Bryan between St. Paul and Olive. They would still have the streetcars traveling against street traffic for right curve boarding and unboarding. Routing the new streetcars on Bryan isn't going to be that much of a problem. But I don't expect Dart wants them on Bryan until the D2 line is built removing half the light rail trains.
(2) More likely, both St. Paul and Olive streetcar lines would be extended further south towards Pacific or Elm before closing the loop. You'll get the added connections to the Eastside Transit Center.
(3) Most likely, from Elm continue the lines down St. Paul or Harwood to the Farmers Market area before closing the loop.

[cowboyeagle05]

Well considering a couple of the Modern Streetcar Starter System alignments the city is studying includes starting at the Farmers Market going up Harwood then sliding over to Olive and looping at Ross then coming back down St. Paul the loop some of you are asking about is a later connection.

The modern starter system routes are being considered right now you can see them in this document originally linked in the "Downtown Dallas Streetcar Plans" Thread.
http://dallascityhall.com/committee_briefings/briefings0109/TEC_StreetcarUpdate_01262009.pdf

[Haretip]

Wow, what a lot of speculation.

St. Paul will go into a semi-dormant status, only being used for special movements and a place to keep children's birthday charters out of the way of regular service cars.

There's a lot of traffic and expensive AT&T (nee SWBT) conduit in St. Paul that would be expensive to relocate.

At some point in the future, additional trackage would connect to the end of St. Paul, returning it to active status as part of further penetration into downtown.

That is all the information I have at this time. I think the alignment shown is the best they could do for the amount of money they had on hand.

[NThomas]

So that means the existing tracks on McKinney & St. Paul south of Olive will be abandoned?

[electricron]

So that means the existing tracks on McKinney & St. Paul south of Olive will be abandoned?

No, they will still be there, and might be part of any loop that gets built later.
As is, they can still be used for parties and large groups.

[cowboyeagle05]

Its not like the tracks will go bad like ripening fruit on St. Paul and its all been planned out so I am confused why such an issue.

[NThomas]

Its not like the tracks will go bad like ripening fruit on St. Paul and its all been planned out so I am confused why such an issue.
Its really not. I just don't understand why the Olive St branch wasn't built from the beginning. Was financing the issue?

[Haretip]

St. Paul will go into a semi-dormant status, only being used for special movements and a place to keep children's birthday charters out of the way of regular service cars....

....At some point in the future, additional trackage would connect to the end of St. Paul, returning it to active status as part of further penetration into downtown.



So that means the existing tracks on McKinney & St. Paul south of Olive will be abandoned?

Yep. I can't get nothing by you. They're shutting down St. Paul and ripping the tracks out. As a matter of fact, St. Paul between McKinney and Ross Avenue is going to have its paving removed from curb to curb and replaced with lawn as part of the Woodall Rogers Park project. The creek between Ross and Munger is going to be uncovered again and they're going to build an iron suspension bridge for pedestrians and cyclists.

:2orbit:

[Haretip]

Holy moses, man. That was 25 frickin years ago. There was no uptown and hardly an arts district. Most of the area traversed by the route was slummy apartments, trashy victorian homes and a few bright spots like the Crescent and LaTour. It was the middle of a great real estate crash and it's amazing the thing even got built to begin with. Now you're asking why Olive wasn't picked over Ross to begin with? Probably because St. Paul at least had Southwestern Life Insurance at the planning stage. Unfortunately they went bankrupt or moved before the line was completed, so for about 12 years MATA went to an abandoned building.

Sorry for the crass response. I'm just not suffering fools well tonight.

[tamtagon]

It's not like the DMA should renovate the St Paul side of the building just to have an entrance on the streetcar line, but I actually think that idea could turn out to be really nice. I think the museum is fixing up the Flora St entrance, since it is give the most direct access to the rest of the Arts District... and I think the DMA could create a fantastic space if the Barrel Vault was opened up on the St Paul side, effectively opening the way for a DMA streetcar stop if/when MATA extends the St Paul route into the rest of downtown.

[ksig121]

It's not like the DMA should renovate the St Paul side of the building just to have an entrance on the streetcar line, but I actually think that idea could turn out to be really nice. I think the museum is fixing up the Flora St entrance, since it is give the most direct access to the rest of the Arts District... and I think the DMA could create a fantastic space if the Barrel Vault was opened up on the St Paul side, effectively opening the way for a DMA streetcar stop if/when MATA extends the St Paul route into the rest of downtown.

That would be a difficult and expensive renovation. The loading docs are back there as are some of the vaults and restoration facilities. I think that about the only thing that could happen on St. Paul is to open up the sculpture garden.

[NThomas]

Yep. I can't get nothing by you. They're shutting down St. Paul and ripping the tracks out. As a matter of fact, St. Paul between McKinney and Ross Avenue is going to have its paving removed from curb to curb and replaced with lawn as part of the Woodall Rogers Park project. The creek between Ross and Munger is going to be uncovered again and they're going to build an iron suspension bridge for pedestrians and cyclists.

:2orbit:
My bad... :uhoh:

[Haretip]

^^Sincere apologies. I don't know why I was in such a fowl mood the other day.

[smudoode]

Yep. I can't get nothing by you. They're shutting down St. Paul and ripping the tracks out. As a matter of fact, St. Paul between McKinney and Ross Avenue is going to have its paving removed from curb to curb and replaced with lawn as part of the Woodall Rogers Park project. The creek between Ross and Munger is going to be uncovered again and they're going to build an iron suspension bridge for pedestrians and cyclists.

:2orbit:


What's this creek talk? I haven't heard of this, nor do I understand how they would do that.

[cowboyeagle05]

What's this creek talk? I haven't heard of this, nor do I understand how they would do that.
I was a joke smudoode

[NThomas]

^^Sincere apologies. I don't know why I was in such a fowl mood the other day.
Np. I deserved that. I didn't read everything like usual. :2doh:

[Haretip]

Estimated construction start for the downtown extension is the end of summer this year.

[dfwcre8tive]

Estimated construction start for the downtown extension is the end of summer this year.

That's great news!

[Haretip]

It's got that fresh, "shovel-ready" smell.

Also, progress continues on rehabbing ex-DR&T No. 754. This is a prototype car for the new old streetcars with quiet resiliant wheels, air conditioning, modern AC motors and electronic control. The car will look and operate like a historic car, but the ride will not be like a historic car. If 754 is a success, all future restorations will incorporate the same features and it is possible that some of the existing cars will receive similar retro-fits (although some already have the A/C system installed).

The ex-Tandy subway car No. 143 remains a big question mark as MATA decides whether to return the car to operating service. Apparently, the big KM controller drum underneath the car committed suicide (with an explosive short-circuit) some time ago and it is very expensive to rebuild and spares are few and far between. MATA has mentioned offering the car to other organizations or at least getting it into moveable condition to allow space for 754 which is due into the carbarn soon.

[dfwcre8tive]

What's the progress with the ex-Toronto PCC cars? The MATA website says they will be put into service when the extension to the south is complete, but won't they still need a loop to turn around?

[Haretip]

I thought the south end includes a wye for turning the cars. Of course, the Cityplace turntable would also need to be installed. The turntable has been designed and has been promised to be built for a LONG time (I thought I heard funding was in place for it, but who knows).

[dfwcre8tive]

The Summer 2009 MATA newsletter:

http://www.mata.org/mline-summer-2009.pdf

[Haretip]

Former Dallas Railway & Terminal Streetcar No. 754 in shining red and white paint scheme returned to Dallas and the rails at MATA's carbarn this past Sunday morning. While she is only sitting on shop trucks, new running gear is being assembled at a contractor's shop in West Dallas. The car has been away from the line for 53 years, mostly at the Carpenter Ranch in Irving and lately at Edwards/Ikon in Birmingham Alabama for restoration work. The trucks, control system, brakes and air conditioning still need to be installed but the Chief Operating Officer promises to push hard to have the car in service by September. I will try to add pictures later today.

[Haretip]

754 masked to protect new paint:
http://www.rplsfaq.com/images/754 015r.jpg

Original seats inside:
http://www.rplsfaq.com/images/754 004r.jpg

Next to Fort Worth Interurban No. 332, also under restoration as a charter car:
http://www.rplsfaq.com/images/754 014r.jpg

Closeup of Golden Glow headlight:
http://www.rplsfaq.com/images/754 012r.jpg
The golden glow reflector is made of irradiated uranium glass and purportedly glows green when exposed to a blacklight/UV Light.

[dfwcre8tive]

^ Looks great! I'm excited to see it rolling down McKinney Avenue.

[Double Wide]

are they re furbishing all the old cars?

[Haretip]

That depends on what your definition of all is. Or your definition of old car. If you are talking about the historic cars that they already use, then yes. The plan is that as the new old cars come into service, the old old cars will be rotated out of service for major overhauls. Or at least that's what I heard a couple of years ago.

[CDallas]

I know people love the nostalgia associated with these old streetcars but I went to Portland and loved their modern streetcar system as it was much more user friendly and moved people around much faster without interfering with traffic. I think that Dallas should move forward with a modern streetcar system tying in all of downtown and the surrounding urban core centers like Portland did and much of the European cities do. We need to move to the future instead of relive the past. Move all of these old cars to the railroad museum.

[mannypr]

^^^Agree. Also if they had the streecars going throughout downtown, uptown, victory and going by all the dart rail stations it would be great!

[tamtagon]

^They're working on it: http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3261&highlight=streetcar

[dfwcre8tive]

http://www.mata.org/

Rosie's Big 100th Birthday Bash
Rosie, the M-Line's most storied trolley car, will celebrate her 100th birthday on Saturday, Sept. 26, with a Parade of Trolley Cars along McKinney Avenue beginning at 10 a.m. Rosie was built in the United States but began her service life in Porto, Portugal. She was the first railcar restored by the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority (MATA) and one of three railcars that saw inaugural service on the M-Line in 1989. Rosie's birthday coincides with MATA's 20th anniversary and the 2nd Annual All About Uptown Festival. For more information, visit www.mata.org.

[dfwcre8tive]

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/09/mckinney-avenue-trolley-update.html#comments

... Groundbreaking on the extension (it's the dotted line on the map) will be in May, with completion in 2011. That will coincide, generally, with completion of the deck park's first phase. The trolley work will cost about $6.5 million...

[RobertB]

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/09/mckinney-avenue-trolley-update.html#comments

... Groundbreaking on the extension (it's the dotted line on the map) will be in May, with completion in 2011. That will coincide, generally, with completion of the deck park's first phase. The trolley work will cost about $6.5 million...
First sentence in the blog entry: "Until a few days ago, I didn't know that McKinney Avenue Trolley service was going to be expanded with a spur that goes close to the DART line along Bryan Street." My suggestion: he should visit this quaint little forum called "dallasmetropolis.com"...

[electricron]

First sentence in the blog entry: "Until a few days ago, I didn't know that McKinney Avenue Trolley service was going to be expanded with a spur that goes close to the DART line along Bryan Street." My suggestion: he should visit this quaint little forum called "dallasmetropolis.com"...
:cheers: I completely agree :cheers:

[dfwcre8tive]

Dallas can't afford to be steel snob about trolley service
12:00 AM CDT on Thursday, September 24, 2009
Steve Blow
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/localnews/columnists/sblow/stories/DN-blow_24met.ART0.Central.Edition1.4ba3ff7.html

The McKinney Avenue Trolley line will celebrate its 20th anniversary Saturday. And that's great. Congratulations to all concerned.

But I hope we're not becoming steel snobs.

Granted, there is something wonderfully appealing about steel wheels rolling on a steel track. I smile every time I see one of the old McKinney Avenue trolleys tootling along.

That simple appeal was a big part of what made Phil Cobb decide to start a trolley line back in the early '80s.

That and the thrill of a challenge. "Just to see if I could do it," he said this week.

Well, the nonprofit McKinney Avenue Transit Authority has come a long way since it was one old streetcar shuttling back and forth "for old time's sake" in front of the restaurants Cobb owned back then.

Now it's not a novelty but an integrated part of the Dallas transportation system. In the last 10 years, ridership has jumped from 40,000 a year to more than 350,000.

Uptown exploded in growth, followed by the West Village. Now it's the Arts District making splashy new strides downtown. And stitching them all together is the humble McKinney Avenue Trolley, the little engine that could.

At 10 a.m. Saturday, a trolley parade will rumble down McKinney Avenue, featuring all four of the transit authority's streetcars. The parade will start at Oak Grove and end at Maple.

The procession will pause at Fairmount Street – site of the all-day Uptown Festival – for special birthday recognition for the streetcar named Rosie.

It's her 100th birthday, making her the oldest streetcar in daily service in North America. She was built in Philadelphia and spent most of her career in Portugal and San Francisco before coming to Dallas.

...

[trolleygirl]

Dallas can't afford to be steel snob about trolley service
12:00 AM CDT on Thursday, September 24, 2009
Steve Blow
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/localnews/columnists/sblow/stories/DN-blow_24met.ART0.Central.Edition1.4ba3ff7.html

The McKinney Avenue Trolley line will celebrate its 20th anniversary Saturday. And that's great. Congratulations to all concerned.

But I hope we're not becoming steel snobs.

Granted, there is something wonderfully appealing about steel wheels rolling on a steel track. I smile every time I see one of the old McKinney Avenue trolleys tootling along.

That simple appeal was a big part of what made Phil Cobb decide to start a trolley line back in the early '80s.

That and the thrill of a challenge. "Just to see if I could do it," he said this week.

Well, the nonprofit McKinney Avenue Transit Authority has come a long way since it was one old streetcar shuttling back and forth "for old time's sake" in front of the restaurants Cobb owned back then.

Now it's not a novelty but an integrated part of the Dallas transportation system. In the last 10 years, ridership has jumped from 40,000 a year to more than 350,000.

Uptown exploded in growth, followed by the West Village. Now it's the Arts District making splashy new strides downtown. And stitching them all together is the humble McKinney Avenue Trolley, the little engine that could.

At 10 a.m. Saturday, a trolley parade will rumble down McKinney Avenue, featuring all four of the transit authority's streetcars. The parade will start at Oak Grove and end at Maple.

The procession will pause at Fairmount Street – site of the all-day Uptown Festival – for special birthday recognition for the streetcar named Rosie.

It's her 100th birthday, making her the oldest streetcar in daily service in North America. She was built in Philadelphia and spent most of her career in Portugal and San Francisco before coming to Dallas.

...

HOORAY!!!

And PS- I will be there volunteering, doing whatever is needed of me, up to and including driving. I think Haretip will be there too. So stop by and see me(us) and give Rosie a birthday wish! She's been through a lot since having been in Dallas, so she deserves a big party. This should be a really fun event.

[Haretip]

Heck No I won't be there and nobody from my non-profit organization either. Not after the load of attitude I got from the person who called me requesting our help. And you could cut the vitriole with a knife when I called back to say we wouldn't be attending. They really could use a new Trolleygirl in the front office.

[dfwcre8tive]

In the Fall 2009 Newsletter, it states that the extension will now turn East on Ross from St Paul, then South on Olive to Bryan. Is this different from the previous plan?

http://www.mata.org/mline-fall-2009-1.pdf
http://www.mata.org/mline-fall-2009-2.pdf

[dfwcre8tive]

Monday, October 5, 2009
West Village in Dallas hosts competition for new rest stop design for trolley
By Pegasus News wire
http://www.pegasusnews.com/news/2009/oct/05/west-village-dallas-hosts-competition-choose-new-r/

DALLAS — For the past 20 years, the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority (MATA) has provided transportation for Uptown dwellers, the Dallas tourist, and many more. To celebrate the 20th anniversary of MATA as one of Uptown’s moving landmarks, West Village has partnered with the Young Architects Forum to host a trolley rest stop design competition. The first phase of the competition concluded September 10, with the submission of many exciting and creative entries. Representatives from West Village and the Young Architects Forum narrowed these entries down to 23 stellar semi-finalist designs, incorporating everything from interactive sound to an oversized fan.

Shoppers are invited to view and vote for their favorite semi-finalist trolley rest stop designs Friday, October 9 through Sunday, October 11. Each design will be displayed in West Village boutique windows, and shoppers are encouraged to stop in and cast their vote for the winning design. Votes will be tallied the evening of Sunday, October 11, and the winning design will be implemented into each West Village trolley stop.

Here are some of the entries:

http://media.pegasusnews.com/img/photos/2009/10/05/Option1.jpg

http://media.pegasusnews.com/img/photos/2009/10/05/Option2.jpg

http://media.pegasusnews.com/img/photos/2009/10/05/Option3.jpg

http://media.pegasusnews.com/img/photos/2009/10/05/Option4.jpg

[TheMapman]

^^^Now that is a GREAT idea!!

[RobertB]

The "W" shaped station looks like it belongs in front of the Whataburger.

[TheMapman]

The "W" shaped station looks like it belongs in front of the Whataburger.

Because it's a W?

http://media.pegasusnews.com/img/photos/2009/10/05/Option3.jpg

http://www.brandsoftheworld.com/brands/0014/3780/brand.gif

Not seein' it, sorry.

[RobertB]

^^ You're right... it's more like the Watsonburger (http://www.yelp.com/biz/watsonburger-of-sherman-sherman) in Sherman.

http://www.cosmicool.com/neon/shermden/watson/Image1tn.jpg
(image source (http://www.cosmicool.com/neon/shermden/index.html))

[cowboyeagle05]

I like the less bulky and or less overly complicated station designs in this case. Considering these are streetcars stops I'm only interested in basic shade and maybe a few seats. Not a large 3D W to make sure if I'm not blind I don't forget that I'm in the West Village.

Although the biggest disappointment I see is the stations outside of the West Village need some of this as well although this could encourage further development of such things. No I don't mean elaborate stations with branding and marketing material like DART train stations. Just a little more obvious streetcar stops. Some of the current stops are jammed between a trash can and and old telephone pole rather than a clearly marked stand here for the streetcar spot. Course the sidewalks along McKinney Avenue are already too small for the current daily pedestrian traffic patterns of the area.

[CDallas]

We really need to move to the Portland Oregon style system that uses modern streetcars with sidewalk level entrances and faster motors. Using this ancient system is like moving people in the urban core with horse drawn carriages great for looking at Christmas lights but not for high density urban cores to move people around quickly. Portland is already expanding their system and planning big. I was there for a week and never got in a cab or car and went all over the center of their city.

[NThomas]

We really need to move to the Portland Oregon style system that uses modern streetcars with sidewalk level entrances and faster motors. Using this ancient system is like moving people in the urban core with horse drawn carriages great for looking at Christmas lights but not for high density urban cores to move people around quickly. Portland is already expanding their system and planning big. I was there for a week and never got in a cab or car and went all over the center of their city.
I never would consider MATA an actual transit system. It's more like a white elephant.

The City of Dallas is actually considering what Portland has (here's the thread (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3261)) and so is Fort Worth (here's that thread (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=5690)).

If Uptown were to get a modern streetcar, I'd guess it'd be at the hands of the city not a PID.

[cowboyeagle05]

We really need to move to the Portland Oregon style system that uses modern streetcars with sidewalk level entrances and faster motors. Using this ancient system is like moving people in the urban core with horse drawn carriages great for looking at Christmas lights but not for high density urban cores to move people around quickly. Portland is already expanding their system and planning big. I was there for a week and never got in a cab or car and went all over the center of their city.

Modern streetcars are being planned in many places around the city already but it requires money and education to convince citizens to feel comfortable with such a system. Plus learn to drive with and around streetcar lines integrated into their driving lanes. A portion of the DART Light rail choice was that is was above ground and introduced people to mass transit in Dallas without the perceived darkness and crime that comes with a underground subway system. Think of MATA as a appetizer to reintroduce the idea and the benefits of streetcars to the public now we can move towards a modern system which some is already being planned with intention to be implemented as money can be allocated.

[mjblazin]

Since all the money in the known universe that Dallas could possibly scrape together until 2030 is already allocated, the boy or girl that would likely lead such a project is sitting in a high school trig class. Don't hold your breath.