MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[aceplace]

That seems to be a logical way to keep bums from riding all day to keep warm or cool. Mostly, people don't valuue what they get for free, they only value what they had to expend effort to get.

On the other hand, charging a fee to ride a streetcar is cumbersome and is a disincentive for riders. After all, nobody pays a fare to use an elevator. Portland, Oregon nominally requires a fare to ride their streetcar line, but they don't bother to collect it, or even keep the ticket machines in working order. I'm not kidding... the ticket machines are often inoperable. They also have what is called "Fareless Square". Downtown rides are free. It should be noted, though, that the streetcar line goes through a part of town that is not impoverished.

I can see a business model where the City of Dallas would actually construct the trackage and wires, and DART would be responsible for operating and funding day-to-day expenses. This would be similar to the current system where Dallas builds the streets and DART buses use them.

[texcolo2]

That seems to be a logical way to keep bums from riding all day to keep warm or cool. Mostly, people don't valuue what they get for free, they only value what they had to expend effort to get.

On the other hand, charging a fee to ride a streetcar is cumbersome and is a disincentive for riders. After all, nobody pays a fare to use an elevator. Portland, Oregon nominally requires a fare to ride their streetcar line, but they don't bother to collect it, or even keep the ticket machines in working order. I'm not kidding... the ticket machines are often inoperable. They also have what is called "Fareless Square". Downtown rides are free. It should be noted, though, that the streetcar line goes through a part of town that is not impoverished.

I can see a business model where the City of Dallas would actually construct the trackage and wires, and DART would be responsible for operating and funding day-to-day expenses. This would be similar to the current system where Dallas builds the streets and DART buses use them.


Normally, I'm a liberal, let the government run everything, kind of guy. But, I'm fascinated with the idea of MATA. This is localization at its finest. The restaurants and businesses on McKinney Avenue have direct say on how they want the line to be ran. MATA is over fifteen years old and is in the process of beginning it's second expansion. Hopefully the Oak Cliff TA will be as successful.

[gshelton91]

And that is a major question with the downtown streetcar plan. In some ways it competes with DART rail, and provides a service that is inferior because it is slower. Also, since it is free, it would be the vehicle of choice of vagrants and the obviously poor, thus jeapordizing its appeal to the middle class. This hasn't happened on McKinney Avenue only because Uptown is a high rent area, and the tourists think the old cars are cute.

Denver's 16th street mall ride is free and they have not had any problems...

Also i don't see the Trolley system as competing--- rather it complements DART Rail.... Using Angela's rout i could park at Mockingbird Station and get to the farmers market where as today i am probably not going to do that.

[FoUTASportscaster]

^Good luck reasoning with him, Gary. He views all transit as the same and can't see why a downtown resident is less likely to take a regional transit mode over a local transit mode to adjacent neighborhoods.

While regional can operate as a local line, it is rare and everything has to be perfect, ie, starting and ending point are each two blocks from a regional transit entry and exit point.


No, priority is not an issue. There is no reason to delay an extension to K/H until the funding for the entire downtown connector is complete. Just as there is no reason to delay the downtown streetcar project until the Caltrava bridges are complete. The city of Dallas should be doing many things simultaneously, not try to do only one project at a time.

In the world of ideals, we wouldn't even be having this conversation as the streetcar system would never have been shut down. I live in the real worls, one where transit funding is scarce. Therefore, you need priorities, and that is not KH.

In your ideal world, DART would have already completed its 2030 plan, but since it is not, you have to prioritize.


Are you saying that you ride MATA all day long and interview people about their origin and destination? No, your casual prejudices and personal impressions do not constitute proof of anything. And no, streetcars do not connect neighborhoods as much as they collect and circulate people within a neighborhood. A rapid transit line such as DART rail does a better job of connecting neighborhoods. The K/H extension would essentially collect people from the neighborhood and deliver them to DART CitiPlace.

I ride it enough to make an educated guess. I used it for work purposes when I worked at Hall and Turtle Creek. I rode that thing 10-15 times a week, and my observations are accurate.


I think you're underestimating the cost of putting a streetcar line through a densely populated downtown, and overestimating the cost of laying track on McKinney between Blackburn and Knox. And you don't know what the ridership would be on a K/H line to CitiPlace station.

Density has very less to do with cost than utility work. You rip up a street. On Main, distruptions would be less, as Elm and Commerce are the main vehicular arteries.


That's because there is currently no way to get to K/H on rail. No, we don't have to prioritize, Houston did not prioritize its new lines, but is building them all at once. In fact, they were able to secure funding for rail as opposed to Bus Rapid Transit because they are building the entire system at one time, rather than 1 line at a time.

Again, real world. In DART's '83 plan, they didn't prioritize. Everything in the 2030 plan, minus the port extension, was to be completed by 2010. When they realized funds weren't available, they began prioritizing lines, begining with the Red, and in tandem the Blue. Now they are working on the Green, followed by the Orange. Again, I am less interested in ideals, but rather how things actually work. Until we can change that, we have a system.


I don't believe that Angela Hunt is opposed to streetcar lines in other parts of Dallas, such as K/H or Davis Street in Oak Cliff. In fact, the residents of North Oak Cliff and K/H pay taxes and live in densely populated neighborhoods that can support streetcar rail. They deserve to get rail if they want it. And I don't believe that Angela Hunt is the only advocate of streetcar rail in Dallas.

I know for a fact she's not, but again, it goes back to prioritizing. MATA and the OCTA are doing it based on local needs for themselves, not the city. I am happy they are doing what they are doing, but the leaders of the city have to priorize, amd that means downtown.

Look I'd love to have a KH streetcar line, but the real world is currently preventing that. So, my priority is downtown, and therefore, adjacent neighborhoods based on their relationship to downtown, and the current transit picture.

[aceplace]

^Good luck reasoning with him, Gary. He views all transit as the same and can't see why a downtown resident is less likely to take a regional transit mode over a local transit mode to adjacent neighborhoods.Huh? It's faster to take DART from the West End to Deep Ellum... among other origin-destination pairs. That drains the ridership of a streetcar line between those two points.


While regional can operate as a local line, it is rare and everything has to be perfect, ie, starting and ending point are each two blocks from a regional transit entry and exit point.The DART line in downtown and its adjacent neighborhoods has stations that are close enough. If yiou double the number od stops, as a streetcar would, you double the travel time. Not good. In practice, a streetcar line that duplicates an existing DART route would have dimished ridership compared to one that served a DART-free destination.



In the world of ideals, we wouldn't even be having this conversation as the streetcar system would never have been shut down. I live in the real worls, one where transit funding is scarce. Therefore, you need priorities, and that is not KH.It would be easier to raise the money for a 1 mile line within a densely populated neighborhood than for a 5 mile line in a downtown with an existing rail transit system.

Also, MATA and Dallas have different sets of priorities, are independent of each other, are each able to raise funds independently from different sources, and have different political constituencies.I think the Feds would be more likely to fund a $10 million grant request from MATA for K/H than a $50 million request for a DT Dallas streetcar system.

Maybe Dallas could afford to build a downtown system and a L/H extension. There's no reason tho think that a $47 million streetcar system is possible, but not a $57 million system.That's how politics works, every constituency gets something. . How do you figure that adding 1 mile to the streetcar system makes it unaffordable? And how do you know that even 5 miles is affordable and politically supportable. It's more likely that things will continue as they have in the past... just incremental additions to an existing system.


I ride it enough to make an educated guess. I used it for work purposes when I worked at Hall and Turtle Creek. I rode that thing 10-15 times a week, and my observations are accurate.How do you know they're accurate? How did you validate them? You're entitled to guess as to the meaning of what you see, but nobody is obliged to take your opinions as fact. Maybe you're just seeing what you want to see.


Again, real world. In DART's '83 plan, they didn't prioritize. Everything in the 2030 plan, minus the port extension, was to be completed by 2010. When they realized funds weren't available, they began prioritizing lines, begining with the Red, and in tandem the Blue. Now they are working on the Green, followed by the Orange. Again, I am less interested in ideals, but rather how things actually work. Until we can change that, we have a system.As I have said, Houston is doing it much differently, building several lines at once, rather than one at a time. And their plan is likely to have greater ridership than ours.




I know for a fact she's not, but again, it goes back to prioritizing. MATA and the OCTA are doing it based on local needs for themselves, not the city. I am happy they are doing what they are doing, but the leaders of the city have to priorize, amd that means downtown.No they don't. And no, it doesn't means downtown gets everything and other districts get nothing. They are quite capable of spreading bond money to different areas of the city. Especially since members of the city council are elected from their local districts, not by downtown residents.


Look I'd love to have a KH streetcar line, but the real world is currently preventing that. So, my priority is downtown, and therefore, adjacent neighborhoods based on their relationship to downtown, and the current transit picture.You get one vote, just like everybody else. And all the everybody elses may have different wants than you do.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Huh? It's faster to take DART from the West End to Deep Ellum... among other origin-destination pairs. That drains the ridership of a streetcar line between those two points.

The DART line in downtown and its adjacent neighborhoods has stations that are close enough. If yiou double the number od stops, as a streetcar would, you double the travel time. Not good. In practice, a streetcar line that duplicates an existing DART route would have dimished ridership compared to one that served a DART-free destination.

Where I live in 1900 Elm (though the same thing could be said for the Davis, Third Rail, SoCo, Kirby, the Merc, DP&L, Interurban, , Continental, Atmos, 1600 Pacific, 1505 Elm, Adolphus, Magnolia, Indigo, Lawrence, and the office buildings are just too numerous to list all), it would be easier to go to Deep Ellum via a streetcar on Main, which runs right by my building to Deep Ellum than it would be by train. I'd have to walk two blocks north, then takea train headed NE, then turns south, then get off and walk the four-six blocks to anything of worth in Deep Ellum. The reason is that the train is regional, the streetcar is local.


It would be easier to raise the money for a 1 mile line within a densely populated neighborhood than for a 5 mile line in a downtown with an existing rail transit system.

Most transit money is awarded based on ridership projections. KH is not a first tier priority based on that.


Also, MATA and Dallas have different sets of priorities, are independent of each other, are each able to raise funds independently from different sources, and have different political constituencies.I think the Feds would be more likely to fund a $10 million grant request from MATA for K/H than a $50 million request for a DT Dallas streetcar system.

MATA gets enough money to operate and that is about it. The city of Dallas along with the Downtown Improvement District is paying for their bulk of their extension.


Maybe Dallas could afford to build a downtown system and a L/H extension. There's no reason tho think that a $47 million streetcar system is possible, but not a $57 million system.That's how politics works, every constituency gets something. . How do you figure that adding 1 mile to the streetcar system makes it unaffordable? And how do you know that even 5 miles is affordable and politically supportable. It's more likely that things will continue as they have in the past... just incremental additions to an existing system.

I figure that in almost five years, since MATA stated their intentions, we as a city have built less than 3 miles of track. I figure that in everything, the city is slow. I figure that in everything, there will cost configurations that prohibit anything of scale. I figure that based on real world observations from the city's actions for the past 50 years.

Would I like it to happen, yes. Will it is a whole other story. And given the fact that our leaders who are proposing this plan have said ZERO about a KH extension, and only downtown and adjacent neighborhoods, the likelyhood is low that this will happen in a first round of streetcar expansion, if there is even a first round.


As I have said, Houston is doing it much differently, building several lines at once, rather than one at a time. And their plan is likely to have greater ridership than ours.

They have one line right now, so apparently, at some point, they prioritized and built one. And given that, once their expansion is complete, there will likely be more considerations given to more lines, meaneing the current round is prioritized.


No they don't. And no, it doesn't means downtown gets everything and other districts get nothing. They are quite capable of spreading bond money to different areas of the city. Especially since members of the city council are elected from their local districts, not by downtown residents.

In a prioritized list, downtown comes first. It has the highest property wealth, the highest pedestrian activity, is the hub of the regional and local system and in the direction the city wants to go with it, needs localized transit. They don't have billions of dollars to spend to make sure all pedestrian neighborhoods like East Dallas, Greenville, Swiss Avenue, Cedars, Oak Cliff, Uptown, West Dallas, etc are all connected. I wish they did. But, in the real world you fail to recognize, they have to prioritize, and that means downtown and therefore, adjacent neighborhoods.

[aceplace]

Sportscaster, you poor guy, I feel sorry for to walk 2 blocks to a DART station, and when you will get to the DE station, you have to walk a few more blocks. Your life must be so tough...

I would think a Deep Ellum streetcar line would be very unattractive to the Federal FTA. Its ridership would consist of urban types who want to go to a second tier entertainment district... at night... into an area with little resident population and little daytime foot traffic. Yes, a streetcar along Commerce (not Main) would be a good amenity, but extending it to DE is another issue.

By the way, you like to claim that ridership figures support your point of view, but that's balderdash... you have no figures. You have conducted no studies, you have not built models... you're supporting your claims by citing your own opinions.

There is no obvious reason that the DFW area could not support more new transit projects than a downtown circulator... you have no reason to believe that there is just enough money for the downtown circulator, but not any more to spare for OCTA and a K/H extension. This is a serious error on your part... explain why you think there is only enough money for just 4.5 miles of streetcar. Yes, in general, there is a limit to available monies, but how do you know there is only enough for downtown and none left for other streetcar projects?

If, as you say, funding on a streetcar project is based upon ridership figures, then including the K/H line in the streetcar project is viable. At least much more viable than justifying a Deep Ellum extension across I45. The K/H extension goes through a densely populated district with retail at both ends, whereas Deep Ellum is marginally populated, active mostly at night, and already served by 2 transit stations.

[FoUTASportscaster]

This is the last one, then I am going to do what I and others do and be done with it again.


Sportscaster, you poor guy, I feel sorry for to walk 2 blocks to a DART station, and when you will get to the DE station, you have to walk a few more blocks. Your life must be so tough...

It's not that it is tougher, idiot, it is what is more convenient. A straight line is shorter than a double curve, which is what the rail line is (regional). And given the fact that a street car would be on the doorstep of a bunch of residential buildings, and would depart at a bunch of clubs, restaurants and other destinations (local), the line is easier and more convenient for users.


I would think a Deep Ellum streetcar line would be very unattractive to the Federal FTA. Its ridership would consist of urban types who want to go to a second tier entertainment district... at night... into an area with little resident population and little daytime foot traffic. Yes, a streetcar along Commerce (not Main) would be a good amenity, but extending it to DE is another issue.

Right now, Deep Ellum has as more residents, retail and restauranst than downtown. DTD has a higher worker population. Either way, KH has more residents and retail, but there are actually more office workers in Deep Ellum. (Isuggest you actually come down to the scary city you abandoned and actually look around, instead of going on stereotypes and media reports). Either way, the 150,000 people in downtown in a day would be more likely to go to Deep Ellum than KH, period. It takes 20 minutes to go to West Village from DTD, now. There is a less likely chance that anyone would go to KH, which would be at least a 50 minute round trip. Deep Ellum at most is 25-30. Again, convenience outweighs just about everything.


By the way, you like to claim that ridership figures support your point of view, but that's balderdash... you have no figures. You have conducted no studies, you have not built models... you're supporting your claims by citing your own opinions.

I am privy to information you aren't. That is all I can say.


There is no obvious reason that the DFW area could not support more new transit projects than a downtown circulator... you have no reason to believe that there is just enough money for the downtown circulator, but not any more to spare for OCTA and a K/H extension. This is a serious error on your part... explain why you think there is only enough money for just 4.5 miles of streetcar. Yes, in general, there is a limit to available monies, but how do you know there is only enough for downtown and none left for other streetcar projects?

OCTA is doing the MATA route, so that is not a relevent example. You forget the other lines running through downtown, connecting the Arts District, Farmer's Market, West End and City Center, but whatever. All told, counting MATA and OCTA my plan has 20 miles of streetcar, but whatever.


If, as you say, funding on a streetcar project is based upon ridership figures, then including the K/H line in the streetcar project is viable. At least much more viable than justifying a Deep Ellum extension across I45. The K/H extension goes through a densely populated district with retail at both ends, whereas Deep Ellum is marginally populated, active mostly at night, and already served by 2 transit stations.

I am not going to argue with you again on the demographics of KH v DE, or the regional transit v local transit. In your world, we already have 1,500 of streetcar tracks ready to go and funded to all corners of the city, plus another 5,000 miles for the region, and 10,000 miles of subway because it is all cheaper to do now than later and money isn't an issue.

[aceplace]

So I'm an idiot, eh? Well, when you have to express yourself with personal insults, that means you've lost an argument. If you were making your points and were facile in your rhetoric, you wouldn't feel so antagonistic.

So you're privy to information I'm not? What a crock! Actually, you may have information I don't, and I have information you don't.

Forget Main street. There won't be any streetcars on Main street due to physical limitations. Angela Hunt's plan calls for Commerce street, which I think is feasible. At any rate, very few office workers between Elm and Ross are going to walk all the way to Commerce for a streetcar that stops and starts on every block when a DART rail station is closer and faster to DE. Assuming there is enough traffic to DE for lunch, which seems unlikely. The vast majority of office workers grab some lunch in downtown.

Do we really want to funnel yuppies out of downtown to Deep Ellum at night? Or would it be better to encourage them to support local clubs, restaurants and shops in downtown itself? I think, the latter. We need to grow Main street as an exciting urban neighborhood, not divert its vitality to Deep Ellum.

As to downtown's access to K/E, that's irrelevant to downtown workers and residents. They should stay downtown and enhance downtown. Providing rail to K/H benefits a different area of the city that also has a seperate claim on city resources and funding... as it would benefit the enormous LoMac and West Village population.

But there's more to it... K/H enhances the tourist experience of the MATA system. It provides another destination, another neighborhood to explore, more night life. What about a trolley to Deep Ellum? I'll let you in on a secret... visitors to the city look at DE and see a dangerous ghetto. It does not look charming, it does not look quaint... it looks like an urban hellhole with a lot of greasy pleasures, it looks like Dallas' Skid Row.

[gshelton91]

/\ I think the benefit of creating better connections downtown is not to shuttle anyone out of the main street area but to grow the overall area. as a customer if i could go to Adairs in Deep Ellum and park... then take a trolley down the street to the iron Cactus for dinner... before attending a concert at the House of Blues then we have effectively increased the market for all of these areas. And in the end i think we would end up with an entertainment area that offers more diversity and is bigger then anywhere else in DFW. This would dwarf sundance square and really start to give addition a run for it's money.

I think also if the hotels started working with the bars/restaurants offering patrons that did not feel comfortable driving back home a substantial discount if they arrive at the hotel after 12am and leave before 11am

Downtown Dallas could become the party capital of Texas. but for any of this to happen we have to have better connectivity between hot spots located outside of walking distance from one another.

[aceplace]

That's an interesting view, gshelton, but it happens we already have such a long, linear entertainment zone... McKinney Avenue, and of course we have a trolley for that. It has already made an entertainment district that is long and diverse.

WE are fortunate, though, to have several entertainment districts, each with a different personality, rather than just one, albeit a larger one. The Gaslamp district in downtown San Diego is larger than the West End, for example, but is mostly the only place in SD to go out on the town.

I think that Dallas needs to build the Main Street district as an entertainment center much more than it already is, and take pressure off of Deep Ellum. This will allow DE to revert to what it was before it became yuppified... just a place where bohemian counterculture can flourish without being contaminated by $30K millionaires.

[jordan8008]

I could not find a thread on this subject.

Is there going to be an upgrade to the McKinney Avenue Trolley system anytime soon? I love the Trolley concept - and a faster, modern day trolley system would be an excellent addition to Uptown -- as well as promote more foot traffic in the area. The better the public transportation in our neighborhood -- the less need for cars -- allowing for less parking lots and more retail/dining/etc streetside.

Anyone have any info or ideas -- thanks.

[palchik]

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/d2newsletters.asp

[jordan8008]

Gracias Senor

[dfwcre8tive]

Winter-Spring 2008 Newsletter:

http://www.mata.org/TrolleyStopV18N1.pdf

It looks like by the summer the MATA fleet will all be air conditioned!

[Haretip]

Holey moses, I can't believe the Sunday morning ridership on MATA. Seems like most of the riders come from the downtown end of the line and are probably tourists, but there are a lot from the West Village and along the line. Ridership has dropped off substantially at the Routh & McKinney stop, though. ;)

Seems like Uptown is doing a booming Sunday Brunch business especially at Breadwinners corner. Lots of activity and lots of riders. I remember when a car could go out on a Sunday and barely carry 10 people ALL DAY long. Now, wow.

[aceplace]

The Trolley newsletter is getting better and better, and the ridership figures for 2007 look pretty good.

There is one strange thing I noticed, however. The plan to put solar panels on the roof of the car barn to reduce or eliminate the payments for electricity to TXU.

According to the newsletter, the panels will cost 1.2 million dollars. The panels may help MATA avoid a payment of $25,000 per year for electricity.

Just doing some simple calculator math, it will take MATA 48 years to break even on costs.

[tamtagon]

Just doing some simple calculator math, it will take MATA 48 years to break even on costs.

Hopefully, there's a Federal Grant for renewable energy that'll pay for the panels.

With all the rivers, creeks and streams in the area and gradual elevation changes, I've always hoped someone would come up with a modern adaptation that combines gravity and the water mill to power cable cars.

[Hannibal Lecter]

So it's OK to make a really bad financial decision if we pay for it through federal income taxes instead of local sales taxes?

Either it makes sense or it doesn't.

[aceplace]

If the solar power solution is only feasible if somebody else gives you a million dollars to pay for it, then we'll be burning fossil fuels for a long time.

I interpret the effort by MATA to install the panels as a pious act of homage to a national craze... sort of like a Muslim girl wearing a headscarf... symbolic rather than practical.

Why doesn't somebody give MATA 1.2 million to extend the line? Or restore more cars? Or run them more often? Or do something other than pay homage to an ideology?

[gshelton91]

The Trolley newsletter is getting better and better, and the ridership figures for 2007 look pretty good.

There is one strange thing I noticed, however. The plan to put solar panels on the roof of the car barn to reduce or eliminate the payments for electricity to TXU.

According to the newsletter, the panels will cost 1.2 million dollars. The panels may help MATA avoid a payment of $25,000 per year for electricity.

Just doing some simple calculator math, it will take MATA 48 years to break even on costs.

The pay back will actually be better then what can be calculated with the numbers given. The cost of energy is increasing faster then inflation so the $25K number will go up at an increasing rate each year over the next several years while their cost will remain the same. Most people think in terms of a 20 year payback on these systems. And their are several companies out in the market now that are trying to capitalize on the delta between current prices and future energy prices so clients don't have the big upfront cost.

[tamtagon]

So it's OK to make a really bad financial decision if we pay for it through federal income taxes instead of local sales taxes?

Either it makes sense or it doesn't.

At this point, I think it a necessary governmental function to underwrite what may appear to be a bad short term financial decision in the conversion of our energy consumption to renewable sources. It makes sense in the long run.

[aceplace]

At this point, I think it a necessary governmental function to underwrite what may appear to be a bad short term financial decision in the conversion of our energy consumption to renewable sources. It makes sense in the long run.Actually, maybe not. Subsidizing ineffectual technology will just encourage the use of ineffectual technology. Spending money on engineering research will tend to improve it.

[aceplace]

The pay back will actually be better then what can be calculated with the numbers given. The cost of energy is increasing faster then inflation so the $25K number will go up at an increasing rate each year over the next several years while their cost will remain the same. Most people think in terms of a 20 year payback on these systems. And their are several companies out in the market now that are trying to capitalize on the delta between current prices and future energy prices so clients don't have the big upfront cost.Well, any other potential improvement to MATA made with the money will also have an increasing value as the dollar inflates and loses value, and we know from the DART experience that the costs associated with rail are also increasing faster than general inflation.

If MATA spends the money on solar, they will only get what they already have... electricity. If they spend the money on rehabbing cars, extending service, lengthening the lines, etc, the community will have a better MATA.

It's a question of what would be the most advantageous use of the money to improve MATA.

Also... A 20 year payback on a technology isn't good enough. Especially if the technology is likely to be obsoleted in a few years. How about a 20 year payback on a VCR purchased in 1985 for $3,000? Or a $3,000 PC built in 1985 with 128K or RAM and a 5 megabyte hard drive?

[Haretip]

Uh, you know... they are performiong engineering to extendi the line, rehabbing existing cars, adding new cars and looking into the solar power thing. I believe the solar power is extremely subsidixed and doesn't really affect their bottom line. If someone wants to underwrite some solar panels on the roof of the carbarn, I don't see that as a negative. Feel free to assume away, though, and contemplate the word assume without the "me" part.

[aceplace]

Uh, you know... they are performiong engineering to extendi the line, rehabbing existing cars, adding new cars and looking into the solar power thing. I believe the solar power is extremely subsidixed and doesn't really affect their bottom line. If someone wants to underwrite some solar panels on the roof of the carbarn, I don't see that as a negative. Feel free to assume away, though, and contemplate the word assume without the "me" part.Boy oh boy, we had a difference of opinion on this forum a couple of years ago... and you're still dinged over it... look at the level of hostility in that post of yours...you will probably take that grudge to your grave, Haretip... unless you let it go.

Yes, I know that the Feds subsidize alternative energy sources... it's the only way they can exist at all. My interest is in pointing out the idiocy of the process, at least as an interesting act of stupidity I can add to my list of government and social blunders. As we saw with the Ethanol blunder that resulted in worldwide food shortages, and a potential INCREASE in the CO2 emissions it was supposed to reduce, the capacity for organizational stupidity is certainly increasing.

If somebody wants to benefit MATA, good for them. If somebody wants to experiment with solar power collectors... well, it's a harmless diversion. The concept that playing with solar power constitutes a benefit to MATA is what I question. Since the gift is highly conditional, it's more of an experiment than a gift. Technically, it is a gift of $25,000 per year, the supposed cost of the electricity saved.

I'm sitting at my desk today, having written a $10,000 check to the IRS, so don't try to tell me that a government subsidy is free money. Raising the money was tough, but it's going to take the pain of 120 people like me to make up for that "free" solar power plant. I'm not particularly intrigued by the whole idea.

[Haretip]

Incorrect analysis. Actually, Ace, I can't remember what the previous disagreement was about. It just seemed to me that you overlooked the improvements that are currently being made on the system in an effort to criticize the solar power project.

The subsidy I was referring to was not a government subsidy - it is an energy company subsidy and I said nothing about free federal money. Any federal money spent on solar energy is spent regardless of whether MATA installs solar or not.

It's funny all these armchair quarterbacks who issue strong opinions with no real knowledge of what's going on. I've made that mistake before too, but I try hard not to.

Sorry about your tax payments. But on the good side I suppose it means you made money last year.

[FoUTASportscaster]

It's funny all these armchair quarterbacks who issue strong opinions with no real knowledge of what's going on.

I know that's right!

[tamtagon]

It's funny all these armchair quarterbacks who issue strong opinions with no real knowledge of what's going on. I've made that mistake before too, but I try hard not to.

Some of the funniest mistakes are made when a strong opinion is formed from an incomplete base of knowledge. Like saying, the night happens because the moon appears.

[gshelton91]

Well, any other potential improvement to MATA made with the money will also have an increasing value as the dollar inflates and loses value, and we know from the DART experience that the costs associated with rail are also increasing faster than general inflation.

If MATA spends the money on solar, they will only get what they already have... electricity. If they spend the money on rehabbing cars, extending service, lengthening the lines, etc, the community will have a better MATA.

It's a question of what would be the most advantageous use of the money to improve MATA.

Also... A 20 year payback on a technology isn't good enough. Especially if the technology is likely to be obsoleted in a few years. How about a 20 year payback on a VCR purchased in 1985 for $3,000? Or a $3,000 PC built in 1985 with 128K or RAM and a 5 megabyte hard drive?

rather then me try to explain check out this site... http://www.sunedison.com/commercial-benefits.php

not saying your wrong the marginal value of building more track might be higher but we don't have enough information to determine that. clearly reducing their projected future cost of operations while marketing them selves as green and insuring that even in a power outage they could provide daytime transportation are strong inducements.

[aceplace]

Incorrect analysis. Actually, Ace, I can't remember what the previous disagreement was about. It just seemed to me that you overlooked the improvements that are currently being made on the system in an effort to criticize the solar power project.OK, Haretip, I'll buy that. And I know nothing about specific improvements MATA is making... although an extra million bucks wouldn't hurt,


The subsidy I was referring to was not a government subsidy - it is an energy company subsidy and I said nothing about free federal money. Any federal money spent on solar energy is spent regardless of whether MATA installs solar or not.

It's funny all these armchair quarterbacks who issue strong opinions with no real knowledge of what's going on. I've made that mistake before too, but I try hard not to.My strong opinions are related to the current inadequacy of the so-called non-renewable energy sources. Solar, wind, biomass, etc. I have no real opinions as to what MATA should do, except that it should not pony up the money out of its own funds..


Sorry about your tax payments. But on the good side I suppose it means you made money last year.I know, I belong to the half of the economy that actually pays taxes. One report I've read says that 97% of the tax revenue comes from the upper 50% of taxpayers. Maybe they should just abolish Federal income taxes for the bottom half to save on administrative expenses.

Right, the Feds do not make gifts of solar arrays to anybody, which is why this project is a demonstration project by your solar company.

[aceplace]

rather then me try to explain check out this site... http://www.sunedison.com/commercial-benefits.phpNo, I don't do that. I spend my time reading the points that posters can and do explain.


not saying your wrong the marginal value of building more track might be higher but we don't have enough information to determine that. clearly reducing their projected future cost of operations while marketing them selves as green and insuring that even in a power outage they could provide daytime transportation are strong inducements.The solar panels at this level of development are not a robust, mature technology. The existing tech will probably be obsolete in a few years. Trackage, on the other hand, will not be obsolete 5 years from now. As to the likelihood of a power outage, well, this isn't a third world country with an undependable power supply. s for the cachet of being Green... maybe that's just a temporary fad?

[Haretip]

There is a big advantage to buying your electricity in off peak hours and MATA is trying to do whatever it can to reduce daytime energy consumtion. There is a big benefit to buying your electricfity at night when demand is low. They are also looking at supercapacitors to store energy drawn off the grid at night. Anything that can be done to reduce those peak usage charges. I can't adequately explain the commercial electric rate structure, but it is incredible how punitive a slight daytime consumption increase can be.

Also, Aceplace, I apologize for including the snarky assumption comment. I had just returned from a birthday party and my politeness level was inhibited.

[gshelton91]

The solar panels at this level of development are not a robust, mature technology. The existing tech will probably be obsolete in a few years. Trackage, on the other hand, will not be obsolete 5 years from now. As to the likelihood of a power outage, well, this isn't a third world country with an undependable power supply. s for the cachet of being Green... maybe that's just a temporary fad?

I beg to differ conversion rates may get slightly better but the solar panels will continue producing for 20+ years. I agree that even on a 20 year time frame the track will probably still out last the solar panels but without knowing the finances associated with the two i think it would be hard for us to determine the best course.

As a matter of personal preference i too would rather have more track laid but again i don't know their financial situation. I would rather add on to my house but i need to add insulation to that attic first so i can make any needed payment for the addition. I was really not trying to get into some big discussion of solar energy just explaining how it can (depending on the situation) make financial sense to install solar.

Regarding electricity going down i live near downtown and have had my electricity go out on average once per year for the past 3 years. Several years ago for 4 days in a row. but I guess Lakewood is a little third world compared to uptown--- at least on the East side of Abrams.

[aceplace]

Also, Aceplace, I apologize for including the snarky assumption comment. I had just returned from a birthday party and my politeness level was inhibited.Hey, no offense taken, Haretip... we all get a little snarky from time to time...


There is a big advantage to buying your electricity in off peak hours and MATA is trying to do whatever it can to reduce daytime energy consumtion. There is a big benefit to buying your electricfity at night when demand is low. They are also looking at supercapacitors to store energy drawn off the grid at night. Anything that can be done to reduce those peak usage charges. I can't adequately explain the commercial electric rate structure, but it is incredible how punitive a slight daytime consumption increase can be.That seems like a reasonable point... it strengthens the case for the solar panels.

[Haretip]

I know this is a little off-topic, but seems similar to what I heard MATA is doing. Don't know if the cost is comparable. Regarding solar panels on the roof of commercial/civic buildings, I found this in today's FW Star Telegram:


Water board backs solar-power system for building
By MAX B. BAKER Star-Telegram Staff Writer

FORT WORTH -- As part of a continuing effort to "go green," the Tarrant Regional Water District voted Tuesday to spend $1.47 million on a solar power system for the new 26,000-square-foot facility under construction east of its downtown headquarters.

The 1,360-panel system will produce 238 kilowatts of power and will be one of the largest of its kind in the state. It will be on the roof of the $9.9 million Information Technology and Engineering facility that is scheduled to be open in 2009.

The district is buying the system from Standard Renewable Energy of Houston.

The 30-pound solar panels will feed energy into the state's grid.

But, since they will produce more power than the building needs, the district will earn credits for purchasing power during the times it is not operating.

Designed to last up to 40 years, the system is expected to pay for itself within 18 years, said Michael Witthaus, the water district's materials manager.

"I think it is a wonderful deal," Witthaus said. "It is a large project and one that didn't have to be done."

Mike Siciliano, area manager for Standard Renewable Energy, said the solar array system being sold to the water district is 20 percent larger than any other system in the state. He said a San Antonio business has a 200-kilowatt system.

He said the water district's decision may convince other public agencies to consider alternative energy sources. The water district's solar panels will prevent up to 244 metric tons of carbon emissions from being released into the environment annually, Siciliano said.

[RobertB]

(Oops, I put this in the D2 thread by accident. Here's where it belongs, since it's streetcar-specific.)

Now why, I wonder, would anyone forget to let Schutze know about a city meeting? :) Here's what happened after a little bird whispered in his ear.

Naturally I called the office of council person Linda Koop, chairman of the council’s transportation committee, whose bailiwick this would be. They took my number and said they’d call me.

I’ve sent that old trick before. That’s what my parents used to say when I called from college.

So I e-mailed Morgan Lyons, the spokesperson at DART, and asked him if there was going to be a meeting Friday at City Hall. He e-mailed me right back:

“Yep. It's a joint meeting between Dallas reps to the DART Board, Dallas City Council and downtown stakeholders. The purpose of the meeting is to hear from technical experts on streetcars and make sure interested parties have a shared understanding of what streetcars can do. The speakers at the meeting literally wrote the book on streetcars. It's called Street Smart, which was published by Reconnecting America. That's a group involved in TOD and urban revitalization. The participants are from around the country. They include:

Tom Furmaniak, LTK Engineering
Charlie Hales, HDR (engineering and planning firm)
Keith Jones, URS Corp. (used to be the GM at the Little Rock transit agency -- he did the streetcar program for the Clinton Library).

Hope that helps.”

Certainly does. Thank you, Morgan. You make me feel feel almost welcome.

The date is Friday at 1 p.m. The location is City Hall, Room L1FN. That’s the auditorium in the first level basement. See you there. I’ll be in the far rear right corner wearing a dress and a pith helmet, with my dog and a large trash bag full of aluminum cans. Sometimes that’s the only way I can slip through security.
The rest of the blog entry is here: Clang, Clang, Clang Goes the Downtown Trolley, Just Maybe? (http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2008/05/clang_clang_clang_goes_the_dow.php)

The Little Rock streetcar mention is interesting. I've noted before my experience travelling through North Little Rock. Driving down old US 70 is like peeling the layers from an onion; on the outside are the hookers and their pimps, standing outside waiting for tricks at 8 in the morning (!). Next are the bars, then the pawn shops and liquor stores. Next are restaurants, first the rough-looking joints and then some of the more hardy chains. By the time you get to the streetcar tracks, you're in a newly-minted paradise compared to those outer layers... but I know that those areas were just as bad or worse not long ago. There are more than a few parts of Dallas that could benefit from a similar transition.

[Haretip]

IMHO, the discussion of the downtown streetcar system should be separate from discussion of the MATA. After attending the meeting today, it is obvious to me that MAYA is not driving the bus on that project and in fact may be getting thrown under the bus. If D2 is about the second route through downtown, then there needs to be another thread about the proposed downtown circulator streetcar, although the goal is to utilize the light rail tracks (the new alignment and/or the existing tracks) for the circulator.

[Haretip]

NBC% Story (http://www.nbc5i.com/newsarchive/16380064/detail.html)

AC's coming. Resilient wheels on order. New cars. More riders.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Rode one the other day that already had AC installed, though I honestly do not think it is that big a deal.

[Haretip]

As fate would have it, I have yet to ride the car that has AC. I ran a charter last night on a car that doesn't have the AC yet. I think it would be a big deal compared to sweltering in 90°+ and 80% humidity.

[Haretip]

Huitt Zollars has been working on MATA's extension plans into downtown Dallas for some time now. As I understand it, the design is almost complete, or "shovel-ready". A sweep of the pen has converted the existing CMAQ (Congestion Mitigation and Air Quality) funds to ARRA money (American Recovery and Reinvestment Act). Ground breaking for downtown extension coming soon.

[CTroyMathis]

Thanks for the info, Andy.

[aygriffith]

So has anyone let First Baptist Academy know that they're going to have to move their gremlin pickup lane for moms in large suvs on St Paul St? They already run St Paul's far right lane from 3 to 6pm, doing whatever it takes to park or double park to get their kids. I'm sure they'll be thrilled when that lane is torn up and they lay tracks in it.

[cowboyeagle05]

So has anyone let First Baptist Academy know that they're going to have to move their gremlin pickup lane for moms in large suvs on St Paul St? They already run St Paul's far right lane from 3 to 6pm, doing whatever it takes to park or double park to get their kids. I'm sure they'll be thrilled when that lane is torn up and they lay tracks in it.

Well if I am not mistaken the extension is running down Olive Street not St. Paul so those ladies can keep their SUV's double parked.

[dfwcre8tive]

Well if I am not mistaken the extension is running down Olive Street not St. Paul so those ladies can keep their SUV's double parked.


I think the extension being considered would make a loop through downtown... continue down St Paul to Main or Commerce, then loop back down Harwood to Olive to McKinney. Is this right?

[cowboyeagle05]

I think the extension being considered would make a loop through downtown... continue down St Paul to Main or Commerce, then loop back down Harwood to Olive to McKinney. Is this right?


That's the modern streetcar line they are studying but the extension of the MATA they have been doing design work on connects the MATA to Pearl Station down Olive street with no loop yet.

This is not the best map but it says Open Winter 2009 but on MATA site the extension is mapped out http://www.mata.org/map.shtml down Olive with no loop at this time.

[aygriffith]

Its odd that they would choose to start a whole new line down Olive when there is already one up to Ross St on St Paul. I would understand if they were completing the loop but that doesn't look like its getting completed from the picture. Plus, east of Ervay is almost always a ghost town on the weekend, and to run the trolley down that route wouldn't get much usage.

[dfwcre8tive]

^ I agree. If their goal with the extension is to connect to a downtown rail station, St Paul station would be closer and more in the heart of the activity. Complete the loop with the longer route down Olive during Phase II.

[cowboyeagle05]

Well it has to do with several things like currently the Streetcar down Ervay drops people at the back of the DMA where there is no door and puts it outside of the Arts District. Harwood Street is going to be closed as a through street for the Woodall Rogers Park and the width of Olive is better to fit in streetcars and continuing traffic flow. Also by ending near Pearl station they are starting at the Front door of the Sheraton Hotel which could be a big revenue generator for them. Sheraton will love to be able to put people on the MATA and send them off to Uptown for lunch or dinner. People are less intimidated by the cute old fashioned streetcars compared with the DART trains.

To add even more fuel the donations to the MATA include donations from the DMA, Nasher, & Trammel Crow which this new alignment brings hotel visitors to see these attractions much easier than an Ervay alignment that passes behind them outside the Arts District.