MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[Haretip]

MATA Streetcar No. 636 has had an air conditioner installed for testing. Apparently, the plan is to install two more units once the model currently being tested is approved. At some point, the other cars will be air conditioned. They are using a nifty power supply that converts the 600VDC to the juice required by the AC unit.

[RobertB]

MATA Streetcar No. 636 has had an air conditioner installed for testing. Apparently, the plan is to install two more units once the model currently being tested is approved. At some point, the other cars will be air conditioned. They are using a nifty power supply that converts the 600VDC to the juice required by the AC unit.
I couldn't resist... fortunately, I don't have Photoshop! :)

[gshelton91]

Some studies:
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/CBD/DART_Streetcar_St_Paul-Olive_Loop.pdf
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/CBD/DART_Streetcar_Commerce-Elm_Loop.pdf
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/CBD/DART_BusLanes_Commerce-Elm.pdf

So is the full loop funded or just the part to the DART Transit mall?

Also what happened to the turn table they were planning to put at City Place so that MATA could use their cars that only went one direction?

With Uptown helping to drive so much business it looks like Dallas would make it a priority to get a full loop connecting it to Main street and all the hotels in place. And even introduce a few modern cars... might be cool to be able to see old and new cars on the line.

[DallasMan]

^ Absolutely. I think MATA should extend itself north and south. South so that it goes through the Arts District, and maybe Main.

North, up to Knox-Henderson. If DART isn't going to finish out the K/H stop on the light rail, then a MATA link to K/H would be a great substitute. Probably cheaper too.

[Haretip]

Lakewooder was talking to the Chief Operating Office of the streetcar last Saturday night at TG's fajita-rita birthday bash. Perhaps he can enlighten us on the details of the conversation?

[trolleygirl]

Lakewooder was talking to the Chief Operating Office of the streetcar last Saturday night at TG's fajita-rita birthday bash. Perhaps he can enlighten us on the details of the conversation?

Hahaha! Dunno if that's possible, as I recall, MATA's C.O.O was dressed in a "George Curious" pinata head and Lakewooder had to call a cab home....... God I love Fajita Rita!

[trolleygirl]

Hey y'all, just an FYI....I decided to start volunteering for MATA after years of faithful service.... so I'll be operating streetcars on a fairly regular basis. Look for the quirky and talkative chick with cute dimples and a silly tie, ringing the bell and waving at passersby for no good damn reason..........

[Haretip]

I sawr your nametag on the bulletin board last time I waddled through the barn.

[gshelton91]

I was driving down Cedar Springs around the Crescent this weekend and it looked like their are old Street Cart tracks that have been covered over. Not sure how far they go but it seems like a no brainer to do a street cart between downtown and the condos along turtle creek via Cedar Springs...

Also looks like the Hilton Anatole would be pushing for some kind of connection via streetcar to the AAC and the main DART Line. It is one of the largest hotels in Dallas and it is really disconnected from the rest of the city. As a City it looks like we would want to make it as easy as possible for their guests to visit downtown retail and restaurants.

[RobertB]

Also looks like the Hilton Anatole would be pushing for some kind of connection via streetcar to the AAC and the main DART Line. It is one of the largest hotels in Dallas and it is really disconnected from the rest of the city. As a City it looks like we would want to make it as easy as possible for their guests to visit downtown retail and restaurants.
I think their business plan equates "easy as possible" to "complimentary hotel limo". Streetcar access for all the high-end hotels along Stemmons would actually eliminate their perceived competitive advantage over each other -- I don't think they'd actively oppose such a move, but they wouldn't be out in front supporting it either.

[trolleygirl]

I was driving down Cedar Springs around the Crescent this weekend and it looked like their are old Street Cart tracks that have been covered over. Not sure how far they go but it seems like a no brainer to do a street cart between downtown and the condos along turtle creek via Cedar Springs....

There are covered streetcar tracks all over Dallas. When streetcars were disbanded, most cities did the cheap thing- asphlted over the tracks (rather than removing them). There are lots of places in the city where you can see exposed streetcar tracks. The Cedar Springs line was one of the oldest lines but I can't remember the company that originally operated that one.

[cowboyeagle05]

I think I saw a lady driving the Trolley today I hadn't seen her before. ;)

[Haretip]

Did she have a glazed look in her eye from blogging too late into the night on civic internet forums?

[RayM]

Looks like the Google camera caught MATA in a candid moment.

Google Street View link (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Dallas,+TX&ie=UTF8&ll=32.809424,-96.802897&spn=0.025645,0.037508&z=15&om=1&layer=c&cbll=32.80299,-96.80027&cbp=1,192.1408120264203,,0,-3.39042847276942)

[txRNGr]

Looks like the Google camera caught MATA in a candid moment.

Google Street View link (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Dallas,+TX&ie=UTF8&ll=32.809424,-96.802897&spn=0.025645,0.037508&z=15&om=1&layer=c&cbll=32.80299,-96.80027&cbp=1,192.1408120264203,,0,-3.39042847276942)
That is freakin awesome, when did this become part of Google?

[rheye3]

I think it was sometime yesterday (or today).

http://technology.beloblog.com/archives/2007/12/google_to_activate_dallas_stre.html

[dfwcre8tive]

^ http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3593

[AeroD]

Tuesday, January 8, 2008



A Streetcar Named Desire: Connecting the Dots in Downtown Dallas

See? I'm already fulfilling my New Year's Resolution. Good for me.

For my first legitimate blog post of the new year, I want to focus on Downtown and the next step in its evolution.

Not to get all Andy Rooney at the very start of the new year, but you know what bugs me? Folks who criticize Downtown Dallas when they haven't visited in a decade.

My husband and I lived in Downtown between 1998 and the end of 2000. NOTHING was going on. There were fewer than 500 residents and little to do. The last decade has seen incredible changes: Today, Downtown is home to more than 3700 residents and growing. Our Arts District is exploding with three new venues, a renovated arts magnet high school, two awesome historic churches (one just renovated, another about to begin), new offices, and new residential development. We're about to get not one, not two, but THREE major new parks in Downtown (Woodall Rodgers, Main Street, and Belo). Stone Street Gardens is taking off, and we've got the Farmers Market, Dealey Plaza, the West End, and the Convention Center rounding out the mix.

Add to the that the projects just outside the loop: Victory, Deep Ellum, Uptown, the Cedars, Old City Park, the Katy Trail, and the Trinity Park. Cranes are everywhere. The Merc's lights are back on. Great things are happening. We should have an amazing Downtown.

So why doesn't it feel that way?

Lack of connectivity.

Having islands of activity isn't enough. To have an amazing Downtown, to see the benefit of all the energy and work and money that's gone into getting Downtown to this point, we have to connect the dots. We've got to make it easy and enjoyable to get from Victory to the West End over to the Nasher and on to the Farmers Market. We have to give people the opportunity to check out Dealey Plaza, head over to a picnic at Woodall Rodgers Park, then venture to Deep Ellum for some great live music.

It's only then that our Downtown will feel amazingly active, vibrant, and interesting. It's that combustion of intense connectivity that will ignite our Downtown. This is the next CRITICAL STEP for Downtown success.

How do we do that? Create a streetcar SYSTEM. I emphasize "system" because it can't just be one line. Or two. It needs to be at least three lines to connect enough points of interest to ignite this transformation. We can't half-ass it and then wonder why it didn't work.

It also needs to be free. People will ride it if it's free. A payment system is cumbersome, hard to enforce, and will reduce ridership – especially of tourists. The point isn't to make money, it's to attract passengers, encourage cross-pollination of venue visitors, and bring our Downtown closer together.

Whatever the ultimate routes selected, the streetcar system needs to be composed of simple, straight shots. No complex loops or labyrinthine twists and turns. Make it simple and people will feel confident that if they get on, they will get exactly where they want to go.

We also need to make sure all the streetcars are air-conditioned and heated. People will ride it if they are comfortable.

Most importantly, most critically, we've got to ensure that the system hits all the major points of interest in Downtown and that it complements the second DART light rail alignment. Here's where I'd like to see the streetcar go:

[Will be up at Google Maps tonight.]

Why streetcars and not just buses? The rails embedded in concrete provide a sense of certainty as to where the trolley's going. People are more comfortable getting on a streetcar than a bus, especially if they are unfamiliar with the area. Buses are a crapshoot -- Is it the right bus number? Why is the bus turning here? Where will I wind up? With a streetcar, you know what you're getting.

Aside from bringing Downtown points of interest closer together, a streetcar system will offer other benefits as well, both economic and environmental. Other cities have found remarkable redevelopment resulting from streetcar lines, and we can see the same here, particularly in areas in need of revitalization like Deep Ellum. Getting people out of their cars and onto a trolley will also help improve our air quality.

There's already some support on the council for a streetcar system in Downtown, including Councilmember Linda Koop, who is chair of the Transportation Committee. Linda has so much transportation experience and has visited other cities with streetcar systems. Her knowledge about mass transit, funding processes, and streetcar systems will be very helpful as we go forward. Councilmember Pauline Medrano also represents Downtown (including Victory, the West End, the Cedars, and Deep Ellum) and along with Linda and I is serving on the DART policy group for the second rail alignment.

There are a lot of details to figure out, not the least of which is finding funding sources (DART is tapped). By August, we'll have an "alternatives analysis" for the streetcar system, which is really the first step in securing federal funding. It's also a critical step in figuring out where we can and can't put the rail lines.

Now, here's the thing. I'm impatient. I want to see this streetcar up and running tomorrow. Today, if possible. But that's not going to happen. We'll push as fast as we can, but getting the funding, figuring out technical issues, creating an organization to oversee the system, building the thing, all of this will take a few years (how many, we don't know yet -- we'll get a better handle on a realistic timeline as we go through the streetcar analysis).

Our need for a connector can't wait several years. Too much is happening in our Downtown now, and we need to capitalize on the successful islands of activity right now. So, we're going to look at an intermediate solution. I was cold to this idea at first, but have warmed up to it: We're going to investigate a "trolley on wheels" system that will mimic the trolley line until the streetcar gets up and running. Right now we're at the very, very initial stage of investigation, looking at how much a system like this would cost and how we'd pay for it. We'd like to do a study run to see how well it works, then expand it. We can't, however, become satisfied with our trolley-on-wheels system and lose sight of our ultimate goal of creating a true streetcar system.

Just collecting this info and figuring out funding is several months away, so this isn't going to happen overnight. But it will happen.

Downtown, Transportation
Posted by Angela at 5:23 pm on Tuesday

[elmstreetdallas]

Thank God for Angela Hunt.

She looks after and cares about this city with a true passion.

[tamtagon]

Tuesday, January 8, 2008

...It needs to be at least three lines to connect enough points of interest to ignite this transformation. We can't half-ass it and then wonder why it didn't work.

It also needs to be free.

Whatever the ultimate routes selected, the streetcar system needs to be composed of simple, straight shots. No complex loops or labyrinthine twists and turns. Make it simple and people will feel confident that if they get on, they will get exactly where they want to go.

We also need to make sure all the streetcars are air-conditioned and heated. People will ride it if they are comfortable.

The trolley stops need to be clearly marked, easy to negotiate and comfortable while waiting.

[gshelton91]

This is great to hear!

I think the trolley on wheels is a great first step. If we put some obvious infrastructure in place to support the trolley on wheels I think this could work. And these trolleys have to run at least until the bars close so people stying in hotels and just out for the night know they can get back to their car where ever it is. Taxis are just not a good option in Dallas.

one final thought.... With all the hotel rooms at the Hilton Anatole it seems one of these trolleys should stop at their front door. This would be the supper highway to getting their guest to visit our downtown restaurants, bars and shops. Not to mention the convention center.

[DallasMan]

I really appreciate Angela Hunt and what she says here. However, I have some concerns, particularly with the "Trolley on Wheels" idea. I think that its one thing to say, we'll do this for now, until we get a real system in place, but its another thing to actually follow through in getting it in place. I simply don't have faith in the city organization to put the steetcar in once the trolley on wheels is up and running...I see the city getting cheap and leaving the wheels alternative in place waaaay too long, if not permanently.

I think she is being very forward thinking though with regards to the benefits of an efficient streetcar. I think the first steps should be the extension of the streetcar into the Arts District south, and north up to Knox/Henderson. I look forward the results of these studies.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Downtown is a far bigger priority than Knox-Henderson. In my personal maps, I have a Main Street line that goes from Fair Park to Deep Ellum to Main Street, up Lamar to Victory, down Houston to Dealey then back east on Main. Another line that Circles Bryan Place area out on Ross, then south on Pearl/Central to the Farmers Market. Another from the existing MATA line west to the west end, then back and then my circular line, which connects a lot of buisiness and residents to attractions and LRT stations (as detailed here, http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=6181&highlight=downtown+streetcar)

[FoUTASportscaster]

Found this recommendation from the ForwardDallas plan.

http://www.forwarddallas.org/files/up/20060830/Streetcar.pdf

[DallasMan]

^Sure, DTD is a bigger priority than Knox-Henderson, but you're talking about sending it to Deep Ellum and Fair Park, just as far, or furthern than K-H. I think when you consider the number of riders that would consistently and regularly use the streetcar, an extension to K-H would pull in more riders than a route to Deep Ellum or Fair Park.

Besides, w/ completion of the Green Line, these venues will already be served by mass transit. K-H is an island unconnected to transit (other than buses), in keeping with Angela Hunt's analysis of trying to connect the islands of activity. K-H is one of the busiest pedestrian areas in the city on a daily basis, yet it is completely unconnected to the transit system.

[aceplace]

^Sure, DTD is a bigger priority than Knox-Henderson, but you're talking about sending it to Deep Ellum and Fair Park, just as far, or furthern than K-H. I think when you consider the number of riders that would consistently and regularly use the streetcar, an extension to K-H would pull in more riders than a route to Deep Ellum or Fair Park.

Besides, w/ completion of the Green Line, these venues will already be served by mass transit. K-H is an island unconnected to transit (other than buses), in keeping with Angela Hunt's analysis of trying to connect the islands of activity. K-H is one of the busiest pedestrian areas in the city on a daily basis, yet it is completely unconnected to the transit system.I totally agree. We will have a rail line to DE and Fair Park in late 2009, and we don't need two of them.

The route from West Village to Knox-Henderson, OTOH, is one of the most flattering urban areas in our city, and the Knox-Henderson district is one of our few urban neighborhoods. This would be a godsend to our tourist industry to have the trolley go that far.

The total distance from Blackburn to K-H is one mile. One dancin, flippin mile, for goodness sakes. How much, or little, would one mile of street rail cost? Nothing, compared to a $60 million dollar bridge to nowhere.

[FoUTASportscaster]

^Sure, DTD is a bigger priority than Knox-Henderson, but you're talking about sending it to Deep Ellum and Fair Park, just as far, or furthern than K-H. I think when you consider the number of riders that would consistently and regularly use the streetcar, an extension to K-H would pull in more riders than a route to Deep Ellum or Fair Park.

Besides, w/ completion of the Green Line, these venues will already be served by mass transit. K-H is an island unconnected to transit (other than buses), in keeping with Angela Hunt's analysis of trying to connect the islands of activity. K-H is one of the busiest pedestrian areas in the city on a daily basis, yet it is completely unconnected to the transit system.

You may want to redo the math on that one. KH is 3 miles from downtown, while Fair Park is 2.

As for the logic that Deep Ellum has a rail line, therefore it isn't needed as bad, DTD will have 5 lines, and yet the streetcar is still needed. The rail lines serve a different purpose than streetcars do. We have buses now, so by that logic, we should stop building anything else, since they are served by transit.

[LongonBigD]

You are both right. Knox/Henderson is ONE mile from Blackburn and THREE miles from downtown. Only one more mile of track (two technically since it goes up McKinney one mile and down Cole one mile) is required to connect the area to the rest of the EXISTING trolley line. Whereas any trolley line to Fair Park would be built from scratch and ridership numbers would be minimal except during the State Fair.

I have to agree with DM that the KH extension would have an IMMEDIATE impact on ridership which would ultimately boost the goal of getting streetcars to other areas once they see how ridership just continues to grow and grow on the MATA. Of course I'm prejudiced, that trolley line would run right in front of my home. While I still prefer the eventual opening of a DART stop under K/H, til then, this will help a great deal.

[FoUTASportscaster]

It is not like the Main Street lines main focus is to transport people in downtown to Fair Park. The line I proposed connects Victory to the West End, Dealey Plaza, the most pedestrian part of Main Street, Deep Ellum and Fair Park. It connects residential to office to attractions to regional transit nodes. It makes it easier for people to work, live and play in the central core without a car, and does so easier than the LRT, which by definition is a regional transit mode, not local, so its not designed to.

The KH line does not accomplish much of that. I do think a KH is needed, but a connector to the West End, Victory, Dealey Plaza, Main Street, Deep Ellum, Arts District is needed more. I think KH is on the same tier as Farmers Market, Fair Park and Bryan Place area. I added those because it is just small extensions of lines that connect vital areas.

I added Fair Park to the Main Street Line simply because it is a half mile more from Deep Ellum. It is also a copy of the first streetcar line in Dallas. Which went from the courthouse to Fair Park.

[jimbone]

It is not like the Main Street lines main focus is to transport people in downtown to Fair Park. The line I proposed connects Victory to the West End, Dealey Plaza, the most pedestrian part of Main Street, Deep Ellum and Fair Park. It connects residential to office to attractions to regional transit nodes. It makes it easier for people to work, live and play in the central core without a car, and does so easier than the LRT, which by definition is a regional transit mode, not local, so its not designed to.

The KH line does not accomplish much of that. I do think a KH is needed, but a connector to the West End, Victory, Dealey Plaza, Main Street, Deep Ellum, Arts District is needed more. I think KH is on the same tier as Farmers Market, Fair Park and Bryan Place area. I added those because it is just small extensions of lines that connect vital areas.

I added Fair Park to the Main Street Line simply because it is a half mile more from Deep Ellum. It is also a copy of the first streetcar line in Dallas. Which went from the courthouse to Fair Park.

Wow you guys really know your stuff the city or dart should hire you really I'm not kidding. It's sad that people on this board imo know more what Dallas needs than our elected officials.

[FoUTASportscaster]

^ Believe it or not, I have tried to get a job with the agency in many positions. It has been very difficult to get a foot in the door. That said, I do plan on getting a master in city and regional planning, which may make my foot a little bigger.

[tamtagon]

That said, I do plan on getting a master in city and regional planning, which may make my foot a little bigger.

Make sure to consider Georgia Tech (http://www.planning.gatech.edu/) in your choice of schools.

[Columbus Civil]

actually wouldnt a smaller foot help?

[aceplace]

You may want to redo the math on that one. KH is 3 miles from downtown, while Fair Park is 2.

As for the logic that Deep Ellum has a rail line, therefore it isn't needed as bad, DTD will have 5 lines, and yet the streetcar is still needed. The rail lines serve a different purpose than streetcars do. We have buses now, so by that logic, we should stop building anything else, since they are served by transit.The idea that K/H is only one mile from the existing railhead has already come up, so I won't comment.

You're correct... streetcars have a different function than rapid transit stations. A streetcar that stops every 2 blocks serves travel within a neighborhood, whereas a rapid transit line serves the purpose of getting people from and to a neighborhood.

With that in mind, though, a streetcar extension one mile from the West Village to Knox-Henderson would be more useful than a one mile line to Deep Ellum. The K/H line serves an area with a large resident population and has shopping and restaurants at both ends... a natural tool for getting people from their apartments to commercial centers. Deep Ellum, on the other hand, is sparsely populated, and has minimal draw at the ends of the line.

[FoUTASportscaster]

With that in mind, though, a streetcar extension one mile from the West Village to Knox-Henderson would be more useful than a one mile line to Deep Ellum. The K/H line serves an area with a large resident population and has shopping and restaurants at both ends... a natural tool for getting people from their apartments to commercial centers. Deep Ellum, on the other hand, is sparsely populated, and has minimal draw at the ends of the line.

That's debateable. As a downtown resident, I go to Deep Ellum far more often than KH, which I have only gone to once. The idea is to connect downtown within itself and to adjacent neighborhoods. With 10,000 people set to live downtown in 2 years (their math, not mine) the ridership potential is greater with a Main Street line connecting the various neighborhoods.

To me, a KH line will be like the current MATA line, nice, semi-functional, but not the best choice. I can see maybe another 200 people a day. With a Main Street line, connecting the aforementioned neighborhoods, I envision a far greater number.

The Main Street Line, within downtown is directly adjacent to 1,814 residential units, 5 million square feet of office space, 6 hotels, Dealey Plaza, the West End, Main Street retail district, West End LRT station West Transfer Center.

In 1-2 blocks away, we have another thousand plus residential units, 7 million square feet of office, another hotel (two more if the Grand and Tower Petroleum proposals come through), various retail and other notables like courthouses and plazas.

All combined, every single category above, residents, workers and tourists, would more likely to go to Victory or Deep Ellum than KH.

In Victory, there will be over 4,000 residential units, 4 million square feet of office space, 2 hotels, the retail, AAC, Victory Station and the House of Blues.

In Deep Elum, there are over 1,000 units, various office space, retail and other attractions. All are easier for downtown people than the LRT line.

Expo Park has around a thousand units, a sprinkling of office and various retail and attractions. Fair Park, in and of itself is an attraction, and with greater non-auto transportation access, would become more of a gem. (In a historical context, streetcar companies would put parks at the end of their line to increase ridership. Fair Park isn't a local example, but Old City Park, Exall Park and Lake Cliff Park are.)

Any line to KH will be around half the ridership of the current MATA line. My Main Street line, or anything similar, will have a higher ridership potential. There is a greater percentage of people living in downtown without a car than in Uptown or KH.

Like I said, a streetcar line to KH needs to happen, but if you look at the intent of Angela's plan, it is a downtown streetcar plan, not a Dallas streetcar plan. Downtown is the first priority and given the fact that downtown people will use a streetcar more for adjacent neighborhoods then further out neighborhoods, it is a very simple conclusion that Deep Ellum fits the need.

That is the reason I gave the mileage earlier, not laying track, but distance from downtown. Deep Ellum has a higher ridership potential to downtown people than KH. They will use a KH line, but not as much, meaning ridership potential is lower. And given the fact that the neighborhood of KH itself is less likely to use it than downtown people, it is an easy choice.


Make sure to consider Georgia Tech (http://www.planning.gatech.edu/) in your choice of schools.

Actually, believe it or not, my Alma Mater has a top tier planning school, somehow doing it while sitting in the middle of Arlington.

[aceplace]

Sure, I agree that a downtown/uptown circulator is important, but a streetcar in Deep Ellum? No, people will use DART rail to go to and from the Deep Ellum areas. There is little need for an internal circulator, which is what a streetcar line is, within Deep Ellum. There is little likelihood that a significant number of people will hop a streetcar to go 4 blocks along Elm street.

True, not many people in downtown go to K/H. But why not? Because there is currently no easy way to get there other than by bus. And bus is very, very uncool. DE may be your personal preference, but the Knox/Henderson area is more lively, more savory, and much more attractive, to the current downtown/Uptown population, and especially to the tourists who will go home and talk about how Dallas has several entertainment districts.

There's another factor. The population north of WV and near K/H is sizable. A trolley connection would bring them into DTD and enhance the area.

Consider the cost of a 2 mile streetcar line through an area with little resident population, versus the cost of a 1 mile streetcar line through an area with a large resident population, especially in an area where you don't get creeped out by the possibility of being hit on the head. A K/H line is half the cost with several times the potential ridership. It should take priority over a DE line.

..................................

Whuups, did I say half the cost? No, your Main Street line would be much, much higher, and longer. Sure, it may be a good thing to have someday, but in practice, a K/H extension is much more bang for a fraction of the cost. It's much more feasible to extend MATA by one mile than to build an entire downtown circulator. And it adds one more interesting neighborhood to the tourist attraction that is MATA.

.................................................. .....

There's more. With another mile of streetcar, we can connect to a line down Henderson, to Lower Greenville at Belmont. Visitors would realize that Dallas is one very walkable and interesting city.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Sure, I agree that a downtown/uptown circulator is important, but a streetcar in Deep Ellum? No, people will use DART rail to go to and from the Deep Ellum areas. There is little need for an internal circulator, which is what a streetcar line is, within Deep Ellum. There is little likelihood that a significant number of people will hop a streetcar to go 4 blocks along Elm street.

It will be a lot easier to step outside your Main Street loft, board a streetcar, head east 10 blocks and get off, then it would be walk the two-four blocks north, board the trains that heads northeast, get off the train and walk south a big amount. Deep Ellum is almost as long as downtown and will have two stations compared to the 4 that run the DTD length. Essentially meaning that any current destination in Deep Ellum will be a bit of a distance away from the two stations in the area.
Plus, the rail line, doing what a regional transit system does, drops people off near the edge. Main Street runs the heart, meaning it will be the preferred choice of both downtowners and Deep Ellumers for local trips.


True, not many people in downtown go to K/H. But why not? Because there is currently no easy way to get there other than by bus. And bus is very, very uncool. DE may be your personal preference, but the Knox/Henderson area is more lively, more savory, and much more attractive, to the current downtown/Uptown population, and especially to the tourists who will go home and talk about how Dallas has several entertainment districts.

They don't because it is not close. In an urban environment, closeness is always prefered, and the only neighborhood close to KH is Uptown, and they aren't as much about a change in lifestyle as downtown, Cedars and Deep Ellum are. Plus, streetcars are a better urban revitalization tool than anything else. Obviously KH will benefit less that DE will with a line.

But again, you are missing the point. If you read, you will see where it says downtown streetcar plan, not Dallas. KH will benefit downtown very little.


There's another factor. The population north of WV and near K/H is sizable. A trolley connection would bring them into DTD and enhance the area.

Not likely.


Consider the cost of a 2 mile streetcar line through an area with little resident population, versus the cost of a 1 mile streetcar line through an area with a large resident population, especially in an area where you don't get creeped out by the possibility of being hit on the head. A K/H line is half the cost with several times the potential ridership. It should take priority over a DE line.

By the time all is said and done, KH/Uptowns population will be quite a bit less than DTD/Victory?DE/Expo Park. Personally I don't get creeped out in Deep Ellum, but then again, I don't bite into stereotypes and media reports like your average citizen who may decide to leave the city for the "safety" of the suburbs.


Whuups, did I say half the cost? No, your Main Street line would be much, much higher, and longer. Sure, it may be a good thing to have someday, but in practice, a K/H extension is much more bang for a fraction of the cost. It's much more feasible to extend MATA by one mile than to build an entire downtown circulator. And it adds one more interesting neighborhood to the tourist attraction that is MATA.

Since ridership would be much higher on Main Street than KH, the cost per mile will be lower. Plus a streetcar line on Main Street to Fair Park offers a greater chance at redevelopment and increased tax revenue, making the cost impact greater.


There's more. With another mile of streetcar, we can connect to a line down Henderson, to Lower Greenville at Belmont. Visitors would realize that Dallas is one very walkable and interesting city.

But again, that line doesn't connect downtown, the whole point of a downtown streetcar system is downtown. This would have a lot less ridership and not be in downtown, ultimately striking down your proposal. Ohh, and don't forget that Belmont residents would likely be quite against that idea.

[LongonBigD]

Not likely.

But again, that line doesn't connect downtown, the whole point of a downtown streetcar system is downtown. This would have a lot less ridership and not be in downtown, ultimately striking down your proposal. Ohh, and don't forget that Belmont residents would likely be quite against that idea.

As a resident of KH, I have to agree with Aceplace. This line would help me make my downtown trips easier and therefore, more frequent. I currently have to walk down to CityPlace/WV and take the train or trolley for my downtown "adventures" to check out what's new and coming up. Typically, I don't stay as long DT b/c I have to allow enough time for the walk back (I usually walk all the way back - either up McKinney or Katy Trail).

As for the second point above - Imagine if a streetcar line DOES connect KH and Lower Greenville along Henderson. Not only do you help reduce the (already) horrible congestion on Henderson, but the next logical leg of that "circulator" would be to come down Ross Ave to DT. Isn't the plan for Ross Ave to be residential again? If true, there's your downtown connection.

As long as we're dreaming, go large!

And while we're on the subject of Uptown vs VP and the lack of mixed-cost residential options, that's exactly why we chose Knox Park. On McKinney Ave just north of Fitzhugh, they are completing construction of $695K custom townhomes which have a view of well-maintained 1950's apartments. Granted, who knows how much longer the apartments can stand with all the townhomes, but for the time being - it has created a wonderfully diverse residential area.

[aceplace]

Sportscaster, are you trying to say that a downtown trolley circulator and a 1 mile extension of MATA are mutually exclusive, that choosing one means we can't have the other?

In terms of cost, the extension to K/H is very small. Building a downtown circulator, including your DE Main street extension, is a very expensive and massive project. That is why a K/H trolley is more likely to happen sooner. Your DE trolley means that there has to be a downtown trolley system to connect to.

We should have had a K/H DART station, even if a few individuals managed to convince DART otherwise, and the K/H area is dense and populous enough to justify rail transit. A rail connection to WV is certainly a partial fix for that omission, and tie the area in to the transit-pedestrian side of Dallas. It makes the pedestrian character of Dallas demonstrably larger to a casual transit user.

[AeroD]

Whoever gets the extension first, I don't care as much as streetcars with A/C. MATA is okay to ride on during the fall and spring, but during the summer not so much.

[Mballar]

Video: http://www.wfaa.com/video/wfaageneral-index.html?nvid=208751&shu=1
Article:
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080115_mo_trolleysystem.26cc79d5.html

Dallas considers downtown trolley system
07:49 AM CST on Wednesday, January 16, 2008

By MACIE JEPSON / WFAA-TV

WFAA-TV Also Online

Macie Jepson reports


DALLAS - As Southlake launched a town square trolley Tuesday, Dallas is considering its own streetcar system to work in tandem with DART.

Southlake's trolley is meant to keep pedestrians on the move in the popular retail and restaurant area. Meanwhile, the goal of a system in Dallas would be to connect the hot stops in downtown.

To get an idea of how public transportation could evolve if the system was put in place in Dallas, one only has to look as far as McKinney Avenue.

"We're about 60 percent commuters, people who use us to get to and from work, who use us to get to and from lunch," said a McKinney Avenue Transit Authority employee.

The McKinney Avenue Transit Authority has run the track since the '80s, and has transported nearly 251,000 people last year.

"The drivers of the trolley do a good job talking to people and explaining the highlights of Uptown," said Rocco Khalaf, owner of Rocco's Uptown Pizza & Pasta. "And they mention our business all the time, and we love that."

Downtown commuters seem to love the ride as well.

"There are several restaurants on McKinney that we go to and not a lot of parking," said one commuter. "So, it's real convenient,"

Council member Angela Hunt said she thinks a similar system is a must for Dallas' future.

"To continue evolving, to make our downtown truly great and a place where people want to move to, we're going to have to have a transportation system in downtown Dallas to connect the dots," she said. "...Buses aren't the way to go here. It really is the kind of activity of a streetcar that builds excitement [and] that creates a certainty of where you're going."

Hunt's developed a preliminary route that includes Victory, the West End, Nasher and Farmer's Market. It also includes easy accessibility to venues along the way.

However, a transit system is only as good as the people who to embrace it. Whether North Texans will is still the question. There are those already traveling the rail that said they think the answer is yes.

"That's a great idea," one commuter said. "We would definitely use it."

Funding would combine city money, partnerships and federal grants earmarked for small transportation projects.


E-mail mjepson@wfaa.com

[DallasMan]

I think AcePlace and FoUTA both make good points, but I have to agree w/ AcePlace overall...I think the ease in which the line could be extended to Knox from Blackburn, and the fact that its solid residential almost the entire way, residential that is already established, thriving, and dense - as opposed to the future (hopefully) dense population downtown, in Victory, and in Deep Ellum. I think an extension to KH gets you an immediate jump in ridership that spreads the "urban walkability" factor from DT north all the way to KH.

Since when did MATA become only a tool for downtown anyway - it is the MCKINNEY AVENUE transit authority to begin with! It seems more in keeping with its original purpose to extend the streetcar the entire length of McKinney Ave. first, before branching out lines to Victory, Deep Ellum, etc.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Everyone who is wanting KH first is missing the point. Downtown has been highlighted as the need, not KH. Therefore, KH is a second tier line.


Dallas considers downtown trolley system

...

Council member Angela Hunt said she thinks a similar system is a must for Dallas' future.

"To continue evolving, to make our downtown truly great and a place where people want to move to, we're going to have to have a transportation system in downtown Dallas to connect the dots," she said. "...Buses aren't the way to go here. It really is the kind of activity of a streetcar that builds excitement [and] that creates a certainty of where you're going."

Hunt's developed a preliminary route that includes Victory, the West End, Nasher and Farmer's Market. It also includes easy accessibility to venues along the way.

Nowhere in there do you see KH. The priority in not KH, it is to connect downtown within itself and adjacent neighborhoods.


However, a transit system is only as good as the people who to embrace it. Whether North Texans will is still the question. There are those already traveling the rail that said they think the answer is yes.

Those that use it most will be those who entered the area without a car. That means local transportation connected to regional transportation. Seeing as how regional connection is miniscule in KH, that means higher ridership potential in downtown.


Funding would combine city money, partnerships and federal grants earmarked for small transportation projects.

In the fight for transportation money, the highest ridership gets the pie. That excludes KH, making it a lower priority.

[aceplace]

OK, Sportscaster, we're going to disagree about what we're talking about.

We're not talking about which of two equally feasible alternatives to do first. A downtown circulator, which I agree is vital and useful, is a major long term project, maybe close to $100 million in cost, if done correctly. Extending MATA one mile to K/H, on the other hand, is a minor project, maybe $6 to $7 million tops. We don't have to choose between them, or worry about postponing one in favor of another. Potentially, the K/H extension could be done at the same time and under the same fundraising effort as the downtown circulator. But if not, it's much more likely that MATA or Dallas muni can find a few million for K/H than $100 million.

The object is not to just get people from one end of Main street to another, but to tie together all the seperately connected pieces that comprise urban Dallas, abd K/H is definitely part of urban Dallas. It is a legitimate destination for people traveling along the elongated urban core.

Actually, your original argument was in favor of a one mile extension to Deep Ellum as opposed to a 1 mile extension to K/H. Perhaps you could not prevail on that point, and now you're arguing as if we had to choose between the K/H extension and the downtown circulator. Are you just trying to find an argument you can win?

[FoUTASportscaster]

OK, Sportscaster, we're going to disagree about what we're talking about.

We're not talking about which of two equally feasible alternatives to do first. A downtown circulator, which I agree is vital and useful, is a major long term project, maybe close to $100 million in cost, if done correctly. Extending MATA one mile to K/H, on the other hand, is a minor project, maybe $6 to $7 million tops. We don't have to choose between them, or worry about postponing one in favor of another. Potentially, the K/H extension could be done at the same time and under the same fundraising effort as the downtown circulator. But if not, it's much more likely that MATA or Dallas muni can find a few million for K/H than $100 million.

The object is not to just get people from one end of Main street to another, but to tie together all the seperately connected pieces that comprise urban Dallas, abd K/H is definitely part of urban Dallas. It is a legitimate destination for people traveling along the elongated urban core.

Actually, your original argument was in favor of a one mile extension to Deep Ellum as opposed to a 1 mile extension to K/H. Perhaps you could not prevail on that point, and now you're arguing as if we had to choose between the K/H extension and the downtown circulator. Are you just trying to find an argument you can win?

No, your point was that KH was a high priority. I think I have done a good job of proving that Main Street is a higher priority. Now, a streetcar is useful for connecting adjacent neighborhoods. I rarely see downtown workers using MATA to go to Uptown and less residents, as I seem to be in the minority. In reverse, I rarely see Uptown residents and workers using MATA to go to downtown. Now why would KH be any different?

Question, why would a one mile extension to KH be 6-7 million, but a 4.2 mile line circling Victory, running by Dealey Plaza, Main, Deep Ellum and terminating at Fair Park be $100 million? At most streetcars run 10-15 million per mile, so your KH would cost more and your Main Street estimate would be less. The current MATA Olive extension is .7 miles and will cost around 5-6 million, proving the point. Plus, ridership is far less on a KH line making it less effective in ridershp/capital cost ratio.

As I have said before, more residents go to Deep Ellum than KH. More office workers would go to Deep Ellum than KH. It is not like we are New York or Tokyo and we can fine tune a system to connect everything. We are literally starting from scratch and have to prioritize, and right now KH is a lower priority than downtown neighborhoods and adjacent neighborhoods across the freeways

Plus city council member Angela Huint is spearheading the idea, and her focus, as are most other council members, is on downtown and adjacent neighborhoods, not KH.

[aceplace]

Your thinking is confused and fragmented, Sportscaster. The extension of MATA to Pearl street is about 6 million.

Yes, a streetcar map covering downtown Dallas would be very expensive, about 100 million if done right.


As to your estimates of downtown workers who are going to go to DE for lunch... good luck. pick some more numbers out of your rear end and wave them around.

BTW, congratulations on your upcoming nuptuals... we sometimes disagree, but I still wish you all the best... may your union be happy and fruitful.

[DallasMan]

FoUTA, I guess we agree to disagree b/c I'm still not convinced on your points...I just think we are talking about two different streetcar systems. MATA in my opinion is the MCKINNEY AVENUE line and the organization's focus should be on expanding service up McKinney Ave.

[aceplace]

No, your point was that KH was a high priority. I think I have done a good job of proving that Main Street is a higher priority. No, priority is not an issue. There is no reason to delay an extension to K/H until the funding for the entire downtown connector is complete. Just as there is no reason to delay the downtown streetcar project until the Caltrava bridges are complete. The city of Dallas should be doing many things simultaneously, not try to do only one project at a time.


Now, a streetcar is useful for connecting adjacent neighborhoods. I rarely see downtown workers using MATA to go to Uptown and less residents, as I seem to be in the minority. In reverse, I rarely see Uptown residents and workers using MATA to go to downtown. Now why would KH be any different?Are you saying that you ride MATA all day long and interview people about their origin and destination? No, your casual prejudices and personal impressions do not constitute proof of anything. And no, streetcars do not connect neighborhoods as much as they collect and circulate people within a neighborhood. A rapid transit line such as DART rail does a better job of connecting neighborhoods. The K/H extension would essentially collect people from the neighborhood and deliver them to DART CitiPlace.


Question, why would a one mile extension to KH be 6-7 million, but a 4.2 mile line circling Victory, running by Dealey Plaza, Main, Deep Ellum and terminating at Fair Park be $100 million? At most streetcars run 10-15 million per mile, so your KH would cost more and your Main Street estimate would be less. The current MATA Olive extension is .7 miles and will cost around 5-6 million, proving the point. Plus, ridership is far less on a KH line making it less effective in ridershp/capital cost ratio. I think you're underestimating the cost of putting a streetcar line through a densely populated downtown, and overestimating the cost of laying track on McKinney between Blackburn and Knox. And you don't know what the ridership would be on a K/H line to CitiPlace station.


As I have said before, more residents go to Deep Ellum than KH. More office workers would go to Deep Ellum than KH. That's because there is currently no way to get to K/H on rail.
It is not like we are New York or Tokyo and we can fine tune a system to connect everything. We are literally starting from scratch and have to prioritize, and right now KH is a lower priority than downtown neighborhoods and adjacent neighborhoods across the freewaysNo, we don't have to prioritize, Houston did not prioritize its new lines, but is building them all at once. In fact, they were able to secure funding for rail as opposed to Bus Rapid Transit because they are building the entire system at one time, rather than 1 line at a time.


Plus city council member Angela Huint is spearheading the idea, and her focus, as are most other council members, is on downtown and adjacent neighborhoods, not KH.I don't believe that Angela Hunt is opposed to streetcar lines in other parts of Dallas, such as K/H or Davis Street in Oak Cliff. In fact, the residents of North Oak Cliff and K/H pay taxes and live in densely populated neighborhoods that can support streetcar rail. They deserve to get rail if they want it. And I don't believe that Angela Hunt is the only advocate of streetcar rail in Dallas.

[aceplace]

FoUTA, I guess we agree to disagree b/c I'm still not convinced on your points...I just think we are talking about two different streetcar systems. MATA in my opinion is the MCKINNEY AVENUE line and the organization's focus should be on expanding service up McKinney Ave.Good point... Why should the merchants and businesses on McKinney Avenue that subsidize MATA care if Dallas builds a streetcar line on Commerce to connect Deep Ellum to Union Station? They Don't. Their natural benefit would be to improve connectivity on McKinney, bring in more tourists and residents to their businesses.

A K/H extension to MATA is justified because of the population density on McKinney Avenue itself. Downtown revitalization is a seperate issue.

..............................................

Actually, if I wanted to go from Union Station to Deep Ellum, I'd take DART Rail. Why should I ride a streetcar that stops at every other street when DART would get me there faster?

And that is a major question with the downtown streetcar plan. In some ways it competes with DART rail, and provides a service that is inferior because it is slower. Also, since it is free, it would be the vehicle of choice of vagrants and the obviously poor, thus jeapordizing its appeal to the middle class. This hasn't happened on McKinney Avenue only because Uptown is a high rent area, and the tourists think the old cars are cute.

[msutton]

I still don't think it should be free. It should be a part of the DART system, like the buses and light rail trains. DART is ridiculously inexpensive as it is. If they want to increase the "reduced" fare to include all of uptown, deep ellum, the ceders, etc. along with the CBD, then I could see a valid argument for that, but I really think we'll have a hard time treating the streetcars as legit transporation until they're ticketed along with everything else.