MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[CityLove]

That takes time. And money. No one seems to have any patience these days! Rome wasn't built in a day.

[Boredkid]

That's great and everything, but how about extending the trolley to connect Uptown, the red/blue rail line, the Elm-Main-Commerce corridor, the Farmers Market, and the Convention Center?!?!?!

Finish the job, already.

It would also be great if the trolley went down to victory. That way people could go to a game then ride the trolley to bars in uptown after.

[St-T]

TG2: Is there anything in the works for the trolley to extend to Knox/Henderson?

[RadicalBender]

It would also be great if the trolley could run to Lovers and Greenville so I could go to Freebirds! And McKinney! And Oklahoma! And Chicago! And Canada! :D

[AndyIvey]

I have lobbied for a similar service down Greenville from Mockingbord Station. It would be a themed bus much like those used by SMU. However, it's a few years out as DART is a bit busy with rail expansions. The plan did benefit from some favorable news coverage a few months ago. Like TG said, transportation expansions do not happen overnight.

[RobertB]

It would also be great if the trolley went down to victory. That way people could go to a game then ride the trolley to bars in uptown after.
I use Harry Hines/McKinnon as a shortcut across downtown, so whenever there's an event at the AAC, I see the cops directing traffic towards the parking lots. Prices range from $10 to $20 or more, depending on the event -- and that's in the unofficial lots several blocks away from the center! I'm afraid to even look at their website to see what the official lots' prices are this year.

Why do you think the AAC folks blocked DART from running LRT in the Houston St. corridor between the AAC and Uptown? The same reason they'll likely fight running the trolley to the AAC. As long as they can charge upwards of $20 for a single parking place, they'll never be fans of a transit-oriented solution.

See also: Jerry Jones moves Cowboys to Transit-Free Arlington

[CityLove]

TG2: Is there anything in the works for the trolley to extend to Knox/Henderson?

No idea. I don't work for the trolley anymore, so I'm not privey to their future plans. I know the COO would love to take the trolley up to Knox/Henderson, but as it's not a one-man show, who knows what will happen.

[dp2]

Yeah, I've been surprised and disappointed to see a Victory-Uptown trolley link missing from all the future transit plans I've seen so far. With TRE and light-rail from Frisco, Denton, Irving, DFW, and Ft. Worth all converging at Victory Station, that's a huge missing link. Forcing passengers to transfer twice or go nearly all the way through downtown would really slow things up and increase the attractiveness of just driving if you worked in Uptown. Plus all the new office developments in the area of the Crescent are too far to walk to from Victory or the light-rail. Of course they could use buses, but it just seems like a natural extension for the trolley line.

[Columbus Civil]

http://www.tubespot.com/pics/geico-cavemen.jpg

[X Factor]

From (http://www.councilagenda.dallascityhall.org/council/caoffice.nsf/0/04fa1d318ef49122862570a8004b51ee?OpenDocument)

That the City Manager is hereby authorized to support and continue development of the McKinney Avenue Trolley Extension Statewide Transportation Enhancement Program project's downtown extension along Olive Street from McKinney Avenue to Pacific Avenue. January 11, 2006 Section 2. That the Texas Department of Transportation's generous offer of a three year time extension to complete the trolley's downtown extension is desired and accepted by the City of Dallas, and that the City of Dallas will work to complete the trolley's downtown extension by November 30, 2008

[RobertB]

Adding a dash for clarity:

"McKinney Avenue Trolley Extension - Statewide Transportation Enhancement Program"

So the state is ponying up some funds for MATA. Great! Although I first read it without the dash: "McKinney Avenue Trolley Extension Statewide". Which would be fun and all, but a streetcar trip to Austin would be a bit much, don't you think? :)

[AndyIvey]

Although I first read it without the dash: "McKinney Avenue Trolley Extension Statewide". Which would be fun and all, but a streetcar trip to Austin would be a bit much, don't you think? :)
We will throw that in with the Cotton Bowl Expansion to entice the Red River Rivalry into staying. Think about it:
1- Safety: Fans could begin legally drinking in Austin on the way to the game.
2- Economic Development: The 14-hour trip would probably entice each traveler to visit a large number of businesses along the way. Kolaches in West would be a stop for sure.
3- Cost: Government subsidies would make the trip free, but cost the taxpayer $900 each way.
4- Perks: Special cars could be equipped with beds. They could also be used to get people home after a night at the Loon. ( RIP Feed Bag ::tear:: )
5- Year-Round Benefit: Trains are generally not affected by inclement weather. Think about a freak snowstorm and an open-air streetcar as your only mode of travel.
6- Marketing: The program would get free marketing worldwide. “Oh, you’re the ones with the streetcar.” Follow this with pointing and ‘The Simpons’ style hoots.
7- Audits: This type of decision is sure to trigger multiple audits as people question the state’s every move. Think about the level of accounting we will achieve once they are over.
8- Concessions: To make money between stops, we could sell Texas-sized pretzels and state themed trinkets.
9- Tourism: Someone will ride it just because it is there.
10- Oklahoma Extension: An interstate agreement would bring this future of transportation to our neighbor to the north. They would, of course, charge tolls.

[dfwcre8tive]

Free ride
Streetcars offer trip back in time
04:49 PM CST on Sunday, March 5, 2006
By BILL MARVEL / Staff Writer

They certainly don't sneak up on you. Stand on any corner waiting for one of the McKinney Avenue streetcars to come along, and you'll hear it blocks away. Amid the sibilant hiss of rubber tires on pavement and the purr of internal combustion motors, there's an insistent, metallic ka-thump ka-thump, the sound of steel wheels on jointed steel rails. Then the car rounds the corner to the accompaniment of a low whine, the song of the wheel flanges. The brakes squeal, the doors pop open with a clatter and you climb aboard.

That's the metal fare box to your right, but you don't have to put anything in. The ride's free. (Nobody would object if you dropped a donation into the box, of course.) Sit down on one of the wood-slat seats or velveteen benches and wait. In a few seconds, with a clang-clang and a gentle nudge, you'll be off.

Take time to look around, now. The ceiling is high and arched, like the nave of a cathedral. The hanging straps with attached stirrups are for those unlikely occasions when the car is so crowded you have to stand up and hang on. Ditto the metal loops on each seat back. Almost everything else you can see is varnished wood or glass. The streetcar is a triumph of the wood joiner's art. The windows are big and generous. There's no better way to see a city than through the windows of a streetcar.

And what a city you'll see. No part of Dallas has changed so quickly and dramatically as the stretch along McKinney Avenue between St. Paul, where the rails turn away from the Arts District, and Blackburn, where they do a turn around the West Village and start back downtown.

The stretch is called Uptown, "Up" in the sense that it rises gently as you head northeast, and in the sense of "upscale." This has lately become the place to shop, live, dine, work out, walk your dog, see and be seen. It is said to be one of the largest areas of undeveloped prime real estate remaining close to a downtown area.

But as you can see out the windows, the developers and builders are working overtime to change that. Rows of new condos, high-rise apartments with their tiers of balconies, and chic new restaurants with sidewalk dining are already in place. More are coming. Round a corner and here's another excavation, another cluster of shops being remade for the carriage trade: Greenz – Salads for the Adventurous. The Dog Loft – Grooming. Urbano Paninoteca.

But close your eyes for a moment and you're instantly taken back to an older time. It's a remarkable ride from Dallas' future back to its past. Ka-thump ka-thump. Clang-clang.

The Van Ditthavong Gallery will be exhibiting its own photographic tribute to the trolley, "Streetcars+Motormen+Dallas" through April 20, at 830 Exposition Ave., Suite 103. For information, call 214-770-7863. www.vanditthavong.com

E-mail greynolds@dallasnews.com or bmarvel@dallasnews.com

[CityLove]

Oh, I forgot about Van's exhibition. It was my former boss and I who first discussed his ideas for this show with him. I look forward to stopping by and seeing what he has come out with. I'm sure it will be fantastic. From the samples I saw early on, he had quite a good idea how to capture the mood of the streetcars and the motormen who operate them. Just click on his website and check out the fourth picture on the section about the exhibit. This one was a personal fave of mine. Richard's a regular weekday operator, and one of their most stereotypical motormen.

[dfwcre8tive]

Don't know how recent this is, but the Fall 2006 Newletter (http://www.mata.org/TrolleyStopV16N1.pdf) from MATA is available here (http://www.mata.org/t-stop.shtml)

[FoUTASportscaster]

Prop One was passed and the MATA extension should proceed.


Dallas Bond No. 1
VOTE FOR 1
(WITH 398 OF 398 PRECINCTS COUNTED)
FOR (A FAVOR). . . . . . . . . 153,901 87.44
AGAINST (EN CONTRA). . . . . . . 22,112 12.56

The route will break off of McKinney and head south down Olive Street. At the LRT transit mall, it will make a left as it heads south toward the Pearl Station.

[RobertB]

Don't know how recent this is, but the Fall 2006 Newletter (http://www.mata.org/TrolleyStopV16N1.pdf) from MATA is available here (http://www.mata.org/t-stop.shtml)
I think MATA should restore Winnie to the Leonard's Department Store look from the 1970 picture included in the newsletter! That looks COOL.

[dfwcre8tive]

I think MATA should restore Winnie to the Leonard's Department Store look from the 1970 picture included in the newsletter! That looks COOL.

Yeah it's a very cool streamlined look.

[CityLove]

I think they'd like to if they could.

[Haretip]

We (www.northtexastransport.org) got one of the streamlined cars. :)

[tamtagon]

Thread merge:

"MATA Expansion" joins "MATA and The Streetcar System."

[Haretip]

From the MATA Website: (http://www.mata.org/news.shtml)

December 8, 2006: New Ridership Record Set. As of this date, MATA has carried 209,000 passengers for the year exceeding the total ridership for 2005. John Landrum, Our Chief Operating Officer, attributes the gain to free rides and our keeping our cars well maintained and running on time. He notes that many people are starting to depend on our streetcars as a means of reliable transportation.

I will give them credit for improved maintenance on the cars. 369's interior is looking pretty good with the new flooring material and seat covers. I haven't operated in a while so I am not sure how the cars are doing mechanically, but their new Superintendant of Shops and Equipment is pretty good.

[FoUTASportscaster]

I use it for most of my excursions into Uptown.

[RobertB]

I rode the streetcar just yesterday, for a Sunday run to the Cityplace Target. Lots of fun. There was a chartered birthday party for a 10-year-old girl going on in one of the cars -- I almost got on before someone told me it was a private party! When the regularly scheduled car came, the only riders were an Oriental family seeing the sights.

It's a great addition to Dallas' city life, and I can hardly wait for the expansion to Oak Cliff! Really, though... Bus 21 tracks the trolley down McKinney, then crosses into OC right along the route planned for the OCTA (or as I prefer, the OLE), along Colorado to Methodist then south on Bishop. It was easy to imagine that I just stayed on the streetcar, except for the bus driver taking the curves like a Formula 1 driver (he stopped just short of my stop for several minutes -- I suspect a 10-100 (http://archimedes.galilei.com/raiar/code-10.html)).

[jsoto3]

You can see the future trolley alignment here:
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/Woodall_Plaza_Deck/Exh_Pearl-Olive_Ramp.pdf

[dfwcre8tive]

that link won't work for me.

[RobertB]

You can see the future trolley alignment here:
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/Woodall_Plaza_Deck/Exh_Pearl-Olive_Ramp.pdf
Oh, man, that looks great! I'm attaching a pic of the area near Pearl Station. The plan calls for a single track straight down the west side of Olive (the left side -- Olive is one-way towards Uptown). There's an interesting bit of double-tracking -- just a trolley's length or so -- between McKinney and Woodall Rodgers. I guess that will allow operators to keep a trolley positioned for additional downtown service.

Probably the coolest thing isn't the line down Olive, though, but the dashed lines labelled "Fut. MATA". There's not just the one that's been mentioned, a return loop up Harwood. There are also dashed lines extending south of the DART tracks, along both Olive and Harwood... heading for the downtown core! I keep dragging the scroll bar to the right, but the .pdf stubbornly refuses to let me peek at what MATA has in mind between Pearl Station and Farmer's Market. But I bet you that by tomorrow, I'll come up with an idea of my own.

[dfwcre8tive]

Wow, there's future MATA tracks all over the Arts District!

[trolleygirl]

From the MATA Website: (http://www.mata.org/news.shtml)

December 8, 2006: New Ridership Record Set. As of this date, MATA has carried 209,000 passengers for the year exceeding the total ridership for 2005. John Landrum, Our Chief Operating Officer, attributes the gain to free rides and our keeping our cars well maintained and running on time. He notes that many people are starting to depend on our streetcars as a means of reliable transportation.

I will give them credit for improved maintenance on the cars. 369's interior is looking pretty good with the new flooring material and seat covers. I haven't operated in a while so I am not sure how the cars are doing mechanically, but their new Superintendant of Shops and Equipment is pretty good.

Haha....."pretty good". How bout a little "A/R"?

[FoUTASportscaster]

There's an interesting bit of double-tracking -- just a trolley's length or so -- between McKinney and Woodall Rodgers. I guess that will allow operators to keep a trolley positioned for additional downtown service.

I can't figure that one out either. I first thought it was there so cars could pass, but it is too close to the main McKinney line and would do wierd things on the one-way street. MATA doesn't rest cars at either Cityplace or Saint Paul on most occasions, aside from a private dine-around. If a car is out on the tracks, then it is in service. They are run by volunteers and don't have the man hours to do that kinda thing. They won't need it to keep additional stock as you said, because the new car barn will be just down the street at the surface lot by San Jacinto. Wierd.


Probably the coolest thing isn't the line down Olive, though, but the dashed lines labelled "Fut. MATA". There's not just the one that's been mentioned, a return loop up Harwood. There are also dashed lines extending south of the DART tracks, along both Olive and Harwood... heading for the downtown core! I keep dragging the scroll bar to the right, but the .pdf stubbornly refuses to let me peek at what MATA has in mind between Pearl Station and Farmer's Market. But I bet you that by tomorrow, I'll come up with an idea of my own.

That doesn't make sence to me. Why would we have three consecutive streets with tracks? I can see the Olive line, little to no utility work, easy connection to a LRT station and a surface lot right there for a car barn on the NW corner of San Jacinto. But I just don't see the need for a Harwood line. The reason that the St. Paul line wasn't completed in its expansion to the West End was utility work. If the city wants this system to be a true transportation system, then that expansion needs to occur along Ross to the West End Station and CBD West Transfer Center and then back along San Jacinto, maybe even do a little extra and connect it to the car barn at San Jacinto.

(EDIT: After further review, it almost looks like they are making Harwood the northern line and the Olive the southern line in the advent of those streets converting back to two-way. The Olive is on the right side while the Harwood is on the right.)

It almost seems like the city is trying to do for uptown what DART is doing for downtown, making it the hub of the system where everything meets. In this case the hub is McKinney Avenue. One line goes to the Farmer's Market from Olive, one goes to the Main Street District along Harwood and if they were smart, which the map says otherwise, one would go to the West End. I wonder if this is to make up for the lack of train stations, only two, and each on the very edge of Uptown and not easily accessible to the core, except through the streetcar line.

As an aside, one day I was thinking about MATA and DART. This thought process was prompted by the San Fransico discussion from a little while back in another thread, about how the city funds MUNI and the region funds BART. The regional transportation thread has articles on how the region's leaders are pushing the state for a half-cent-transit exemption in the sales tax. If they so choose, the city could give 1/4, 3/8 or the full 1/2 to MATA to become Dallas's MUNI. The remainder, should there be one, could go to DART and the city would free up that tax to use as it sees fit. Then MATA could impliment the West End line, a Main Street line, the OLE line and possibly others, like a Deep Ellum or Fair Park and they would all connect. The funny thing is, a lot of those old rail lines are paved over, waiting to be used again, like McKinney was. Dallas would then go back to the days where a car wasn't needed. The streetcars could link current neighborhoods to the LRT system and have increased mobillity and options this city has never seen. MATA could also pay their employees through this and everything would be great in the world.

[Spjz]

Has there been any discussion of expanding the McKinney line to the Farmer's Market? I know that everyone has pointoed out that the Market is alittle too far from current and future LR stations.

[RobertB]

I can't figure that one out either. I first thought it was there so cars could pass, but it is too close to the main McKinney line and would do wierd things on the one-way street. MATA doesn't rest cars at either Cityplace or Saint Paul on most occasions, aside from a private dine-around. If a car is out on the tracks, then it is in service. They are run by volunteers and don't have the man hours to do that kinda thing. They won't need it to keep additional stock as you said, because the new car barn will be just down the street at the surface lot by San Jacinto. Wierd.
I noticed, though, that the new car barn is not included in these plans. The dashed lines marked "Future" don't even run to the area. I wonder if MATA is having to reconsider the idea -- First Baptist may not own the little triangle of green space, but I bet they could raise a stink about it going away.

[FoUTASportscaster]

No, as of this most recent Sunday, 5 days ago, the MATA higher-ups say the car barn om San Jacinto is still a go.

[Mballar]

Is MATA still planning to install a turntable at the Cityplace Station? It's been about ten years since they announced plans to do so, but, as of yet nothing.

[jsoto3]

It's still shown on the West Village masterplan, which was updated quite recently, so it's probably still in the works (probably just awaiting funding).

http://www.westvil.com/expansionmap.pdf

[Mballar]

Thanks for the info.

[DallasMan]

gosh, what i wouldn't give to extend the trolley up to knox-henderson...i seems like it would double the number of potential riders since the section from blackburn up to knox is almost ALL residential...

[CityLove]

I can't figure that one out either. I first thought it was there so cars could pass, but it is too close to the main McKinney line and would do wierd things on the one-way street. MATA doesn't rest cars at either Cityplace or Saint Paul on most occasions, aside from a private dine-around. If a car is out on the tracks, then it is in service. They are run by volunteers and don't have the man hours to do that kinda thing. They won't need it to keep additional stock as you said, because the new car barn will be just down the street at the surface lot by San Jacinto. Wierd.

It is passing track, so that the cars don't stack up on top of each other in the section between Woodall and the end of the line on Olive. I'm not an engineer or even a streetcar expert, so I can't explain the mechanics of it, but I know that's why it was put in.

[RobertB]

It is passing track, so that the cars don't stack up on top of each other in the section between Woodall and the end of the line on Olive. I'm not an engineer or even a streetcar expert, so I can't explain the mechanics of it, but I know that's why it was put in.
Makes perfect sense now. That's a long stretch from McKinney to Pearl Station -- fully twice as long as the stretch from McKinney to the end of the line on St. Paul. You could end up with a trolley stuck in the left lane of McKinney Avenue waiting for a slightly-delayed streetcar heading out of downtown. This section ensures that the trolley can get off of McKinney and wait without obstructing traffic.

Yet another thing I'd have never thought of. That's why I try to avoid saying rude things about how other people are doing their jobs... because there's a really good chance that there's a really good reason for whatever they're doing, whether I understand it or not.

[FoUTASportscaster]

It is passing track, so that the cars don't stack up on top of each other in the section between Woodall and the end of the line on Olive.


You could end up with a trolley stuck in the left lane of McKinney Avenue waiting for a slightly-delayed streetcar heading out of downtown. This section ensures that the trolley can get off of McKinney and wait without obstructing traffic.

That makes perfect sense now. It is close to McKinney Ave., but the delay could cause real problems in traffic flow in the middle of McKinney. I should have trusted my first thought.


I first thought it was there so cars could pass, but it is too close to the main McKinney line and would do wierd things on the one-way street.

[FoUTASportscaster]

From the first post of this thread, from March of 2002.


A four-car fleet of 76- to 96-year-old trolley cars now makes runs every 30 minutes, carrying 70,000 people a year.

At their volunteer appreciation meeting on Sunday, MATA announced ridership for 2005 at 223,895. That's an increase of about 154,000 in three years since the Cityplace expansion. Ridership per day has gone from 200 to 640. I doubt it will be equal, but the expansion will be great if it produces the same results in terms of ridership increases.

If it were ranked on its own, it would be the 25th most ridden LRT system in the country. Not sure if that is a good thing, or a bad thing, showing how poor transportation is in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Light_Rail_systems_by_riders hip

[RobertB]

If it were ranked on its own, it would be the 25th most ridden LRT system in the country. Not sure if that is a good thing, or a bad thing, showing how poor transportation is in this country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Light_Rail_systems_by_riders hip
I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be added to the list, especially if Galveston's little bitty system makes the cut. What numbers would we use for "average weekday unlinked passenger trips", what is the system's total length (to calculate pax/mile), and -- most importantly for Wikipedia -- where's an official, citable source (the forum probably wouldn't count, we could be making this stuff up).

[CityLove]

First off, that number (223,895) is for 2006, not 2005. 2005 didn't top 200,000. The source would be the official document that the MATA business director keeps of daily ridership...if one could get their hands on said document.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Whoops, that's what I meant, the past calendar year. Still haven't recognized the passing of '06 into '07. For the most part, '06 was a good year and I am having trouble letting it go.

[tamtagon]

gosh, what i wouldn't give to extend the trolley up to knox-henderson...

Even nicer to continue on from Knox-Henderson to SMU, NorthPark and the Park Lane DART Station.

[palchik]

gosh, what i wouldn't give to extend the trolley up to knox-henderson...i seems like it would double the number of potential riders since the section from blackburn up to knox is almost ALL residential...

For what its worth, DART's Route 21 runs along McKinney Avenue (and Cole), serving Mockingbird Station, Knox St., Mckinney Ave, and Downtown...and starting February 5th, will serve One Arts Plaza as well.

[DallasMan]

For what its worth, DART's Route 21 runs along McKinney Avenue (and Cole), serving Mockingbird Station, Knox St., Mckinney Ave, and Downtown...and starting February 5th, will serve One Arts Plaza as well.

that is great....and i've used #21 a few times before. I hate to be a snob, but when I want to head to the West Village for reading/shopping, or I want to go towards McKinney Ave. for drinks in the evening, getting on the trolley is about 100 times more likely to happen than getting on the bus...

[cowboyeagle05]

Something is being installed along Harwood St. on the Bryan Tower side. There are new black poles installed right next to the curb that are much taller than street signage. The poles have nothing on them and they go from the DART line towards the Art District. I know the consenus supported the MATA down Olive so I am confused as to what these poles are for so close to the curb and there is one every 10ft or so towards the Art District. I saw this while leaving downtown on the DART around noon one of the poles was whipping back and fourth in the wind. The only reson I posted the information here was that I remember that the PDF show earlier showed a "Future MATA line" going down Harwood to the Pearl station. The Poles are only on the Bryan tower side of Harwood just like the PDF shows the potential MATA line. Anyone?

[dfwcre8tive]

Something is being installed along Harwood St. on the Bryan Tower side. There are new black poles installed right next to the curb that are much taller than street signage. The poles have nothing on them and they go from the DART line towards the Art District. I know the consenus supported the MATA down Olive so I am confused as to what these poles are for so close to the curb and there is one every 10ft or so towards the Art District. I saw this while leaving downtown on the DART around noon one of the poles was whipping back and fourth in the wind. The only reson I posted the information here was that I remember that the PDF show earlier showed a "Future MATA line" going down Harwood to the Pearl station. The Poles are only on the Bryan tower side of Harwood just like the PDF shows the potential MATA line. Anyone?

"Streetscape Improvements". If you notice, the poles recently installed are similar to the rest of the dual-lamp streetlights being installed throughout downtown (and just further south on Harwood). They just don't have their lights yet. Also, there are some square areas in the sidewalk where they do the decorative paving.

Any news about MATA expansion?

[jsoto3]

Some studies:
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/CBD/DART_Streetcar_St_Paul-Olive_Loop.pdf
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/CBD/DART_Streetcar_Commerce-Elm_Loop.pdf
ftp://ftp.dallascityhall.com/2006%20Bond%20Program/CBD/DART_BusLanes_Commerce-Elm.pdf