MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[Haretip]

I actually pulled rails out of Main when they rebuilt it about 10 years ago (?)

We salvaged the diamonds out of Main and St. Paul at 3 o'clock in the morning on several succesive nights. Got part of the switch and switch motor from the turnout in front of Neiman Marcus. We even found a broken off piece of the old horse-car track underneath the old pavement.

Underneath the street was the original Western Union telegraph cable ducts. They were made of creosoted wood and more than 100 years old, but still in use!?!? Apparently, one of the big telecom companies bought Western Union or the cables/cable ducts and used the telegraph wires to pull fiber optic lines through the old ducts. The guy with the phone company had the job of keeping the wood wet, because when it dried out it pretty much lost its structural integrity and turned into dust.

Those ducts could take the weight of a streetcar. There's nothing in the street today that we can't drive over. We're not much heavier (and possibly lighter) than many of the commercial vehicles that you see driving down main today like a loaded cement truck or a fire truck. The problem is the physical obstruction of the duct work that keeps you from installing the support structure of the track, or the manholes that would need to be relocated.

Those fiber optic companies really tore heck out of Main Street after Dallas spent millions to repave it just a few years back. I understand that this is why the city requires full lane concrete cut and patch instead of trench cut/repair.

[CityLove]

[QUOTE=R. Mbala]http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/121404dnmetstreetcars.a247c.html

Downtown streetcar plan pitched to city
Council, DART agree to study idea to bolster economic development


I'm not going to say too much here, but I figure if anyone here is suited to respond to this, it's me.

This article was a laugh down at MATA. It involves an ex-board member and his propsed "Dallas Streetcar Inc." idea which is just that--an idea. Not action. I want to state for the record, he is in no way affiliated with MATA.

The action is taking place--right now--in meetings and planning. We have a BOD member dedicated to the downtown extension. Keep your eyes peeled in the next month or two for an announcement. We've got a route in mind, and are getting the right people on board before we release it.

Just rest assured, the right people are working on this. Let them figure out the route--no offense intended to anyone, but believe me, they're putting a LOT of effort into doing it right.

As for modern streetcars....

:eek:

I cannot speak for everyone out there. But I can tell you there are many at MATA who are quite fond of the heritage equipment--myself included. I'd like to see an expanded fleet of heritage equipment, which would automatically reduce the stress on each car.

But, what do I know? I've only been in the streetcar business for 6 months...

Courtney

[tamtagon]

Hi TG2.

What about expansion into Oak Cliff? Anything like that in the next decade?

[texman]

How about modern streetcars during the week, vintage on weekends.

[gc]

^ TG2, I dig the old streetcars too. However, I think the best reason for more modern streetcars is for the quality of the experience both inside and out (i.e. noise, temperature, smooth ride, etc). I know, that is expensive.

[gc]

^ Oh yeah, MATA needs to name one of the cars "The LoMac Express" or something to get that name out to more folks!

[CTroyMathis]

Name one 'The LoMac Express' for sure.

Oh, yes.

[tamtagon]

Name one 'The LoMac Express' for sure.

Oh, yes.

'GC's LoMac Express'?

[RobertB]

Hi TG2.

What about expansion into Oak Cliff? Anything like that in the next decade?
Hey, don't say that. If I spend another half a day drawing maps, my boss will be *so* peeved! :)

But wouldn't it be an interesting challenge? Run a streetcar over one of the historic bridges, then right down Jefferson Avenue -- maybe there are still some tracks beneath the asphalt. If you find a way to run it past Tyler/Vernon LRT Station, you will finally link Downtown Oak Cliff with the rail network without a mile-long walk. A link to Methodist Hospital via the Bishop Arts district seems doable. Bonus points if you can bring 'er into Wynnewood Shopping Center!

The biggest challenge would be the on-street parking along Jefferson. I don't see any way it could remain with the trolley line. But the trolley would eliminate the need for the on-street parking, especially if you could convince Fiesta Mart to let their parking lot be used as a Downtown Oak Cliff park-n-ride.

[tamtagon]

Hey, don't say that. If I spend another half a day drawing maps, my boss will be *so* peeved! :)



hahaha

To me, trolley/streetcar connectivity between the CBD and all ajoining neighborhoods is essential - anything within two miles of the West End should have easy trolley/streetcar access. A route through Oak Cliff is manditory to help balance the upscale and pretentious character of the new urbanist trend in uptown. Just like DART rail brings folks from the suburbs, a trolley/streetcar needs to solidify central city neighborhoods with a dedicated routes.

[trolleygirl]

The biggest problem is that eveyone wants streetcars but nobody wants to pay for them.

[drumguy8800]

I believe there are streetcar lines underneath the pavement on the Houston Street Viaduct. Or maybe they got ripped out.. anyhow, that would be great - to run it down houston to zang then down davis. jefferson's too busy and too narrow for streetcars, i think..

[RobertB]

I believe there are streetcar lines underneath the pavement on the Houston Street Viaduct. Or maybe they got ripped out.. anyhow, that would be great - to run it down houston to zang then down davis. jefferson's too busy and too narrow for streetcars, i think..
While Davis isn't that far from Jefferson, it's still not as ideal. Jefferson has a lot more street-facing retail than Davis. On the other hand, Jefferson has been integrated into the vehicle traffic network in such a way that it might be difficult to manage traffic flow.

In a transit/pedestrian utopia, the choice would be obvious: route all auto traffic onto Davis and 12th streets, and close Jefferson to all but pedestrians and trolleys. Now *that* would be a signature project for Dallas -- more useful and aesthetic than a 30-story bridge, and cheaper to boot.

[texman]

You guys have some cool ideas. Robertb, I want a map. :D

[trolleygirl]

I believe there are streetcar lines underneath the pavement on the Houston Street Viaduct. Or maybe they got ripped out.. anyhow, that would be great - to run it down houston to zang then down davis. jefferson's too busy and too narrow for streetcars, i think..

There are tracks all buried all over town. Most cities didn't o through the expense of tearing them out, so they were simply paved over.

Hey TG2, don't you have a teeny little map you can show off??

[RobertB]

You guys have some cool ideas. Robertb, I want a map. :D
Alright, you twisted my arm. Here are a couple of Oak Cliff streetcar routings.

Since I have to connect to the existing system somehow, I'm assuming that a Main St. line has magically come into existance. Run it to Houston St and turn south, and you have a convenient stop in front of Union Station, restoring one more set of rails that once defined the act of arriving in Dallas. Then, continue across the historic bridge -- though note that even if the old tracks are still there, it's not going to be a smooth 60mph ride like the DART river crossing.

Once on the OC side of the river, my primary routing continues down Zang (mislabelled as SH 354 by NCTCOG), turns west on Colorado to Methodist Hospital, then curves south onto Bishop Ave. We'll need to do something about the offset of Bishop St. at Davis, or else we'll have a messy double 90-degree turn -- perhaps a foresighted landowner would donate the land for a cutoff in return for some nice TOD on the remaining land. It's about 6 blocks from Davis to Jefferson (that's why I don't think a streetcar down Davis would work).

At Jefferson, we blithely ignore the traffic and parking issue, and run down the length of the old downtown section. I wonder if there would be a way to put the trolley where the parking spots are now, and put the traffic in the center? A lot will depend on where the existing tracks (if any) are located, and on the local merchants' willingness to give up their parking lots.

At the Polk-Tyler one-way pair, we make a single-track loop around. This will of course require some planning to ensure the least amount of confusion -- the ideal would be a dedicated trolley area like exists at the north end of the existing MATA line. Future plans could include extending a spur to Tyler/Vernon station. Note that the DART line grade crossing probably precludes running a streetcar from Tyler/Vernon to Wynnewood Village via Tyler St.

I included one alternative routing -- the sweeping curve of Jefferson Blvd makes me think that it was originally an interurban rail route, and thus will hold beneath its asphalt surface a couple of sets of ready-to-use (ha) streetcar tracks. But the route has several problems. The turn from the end of the Houston St. Viaduct makes for a very complex geometry, it completely misses the high-potential Methodist/Bishop corridor, and there's not a lot of transit-friendly retail along that stretch.

There are plenty of alternative routings that could be considered, and plenty of destinations to serve, but I think this routing hits the high points.

[tamtagon]

The streetcar routes should connect downtown Oak Cliff with the DART rail stations in addition the CBD. Additionally, the Oak Cliff streetcar routes should anticipate additional light rail stations along a future line coming from Arlington & Grand Prairie connecting at Union Station.

[RobertB]

The streetcar routes should connect downtown Oak Cliff with the DART rail stations in addition the CBD. Additionally, the Oak Cliff streetcar routes should anticipate additional light rail stations along a future line coming from Arlington & Grand Prairie connecting at Union Station.
As much as I'd like to see it (I once ran dartgp.org, when I lived in GP, hoping to get GP into DART), I don't think LRT is going to make it to Arlington and GP, for two reasons:

1) Even if both cities held elections tomorrow to join DART, there's no way DART would put long-time members' projects on hold for such a line. Irving, Carrollton, and FBranch have been paying their share since day 1, and they're not about to let the newcomers get in for free.

2) While LRT to GP might be doable from the Dallas side (my plan is to run from Westmoreland Station via Cockrell Hill, then between Jefferson and Davis), Arlington is a tougher nut to crack. The huge rail system around the GM plant makes LRT through that corridor difficult at best. If Arlington does get LRT, it'll more likely come from the west -- as an extention of the future FW system, possibly via Rosedale/Pioneer Pkwy.

If Arlington and GP get any sort of rail connection with Dallas, especially down the corridor you're thinking of, it'll more likely be commuter rail -- and even that is dicey with the freight volume. I wouldn't expect any commuter rail stations in West Dallas, either, for the same reason.

I think the best bet for connection a Jefferson St. streetcar to LRT will be at underused Tyler/Vernon Station. In fact, the empty parking lot just north of the station would make a great location for a car barn!

[texman]

I like the idea for oak cliff having a connection to Union, that would give them so many transit options. Airport, Amtrak, DART, TRE, other streetcars routes....

[CityLove]

Not sure about Oak Cliff. "Downtown" is our first priority, and there are people who'd like to see Knox-Henderson after that. I can tell you the Knox-Henderson expansion would be much less of a hassle than the southern extension we're working on...the route's pretty easy to figure out (keep going north up McKinney, back south on Cole, with some sort of a ladder in between), and the utilities would more than likely be much less of a hassle than they are downtown.

We have to take these things one at a time.

Anybody have any other questions?

TG2

[psukhu]

The biggest problem is that eveyone wants streetcars but nobody wants to pay for them.

Why doesn't MATA just charge us to ride? I'd pay $2 per ride... (and so would the tourists)






Anybody have any other questions?


Who will decide what the next expansion of MATA will be? (knox-henderson vs. downtown, etc)

Who pays for MATA? Is their funding structure as such that MATA will get more money because of the increased Uptown population?

What are the latest ridership numbers for MATA?


Thanks! :)

[CityLove]

Why doesn't MATA just charge us to ride? I'd pay $2 per ride... (and so would the tourists)




Who will decide what the next expansion of MATA will be? (knox-henderson vs. downtown, etc)

Who pays for MATA? Is their funding structure as such that MATA will get more money because of the increased Uptown population?

What are the latest ridership numbers for MATA?


Thanks! :)

We don't charge because DART doesn't want us to charge. Our two big financial supporters are DART and the Uptown PID, who together provide about 70% of our operating funds. Needless to say, we listen to what DART says. They like us being free, so we're free.

Well the downtown extension IS the next project. That's the one we're working on right now. I suppose it will be our Board of Directors, listening to the major players in town, who decide what direction we'll go in next. That'll be a while anyhow.

Our current ridership averages 425 per day, I believe. I was just looking at this the other day, I hope I'm quoting correctly. We had a good year in 2004, were up 2.5% over 2003, and that's with some pretty major mechanical issues in the early part of the summer. This is what DART looks at most, they like to see this number going up.

TG2

[drumguy8800]

Well the downtown extension IS the next project. That's the one we're working on right now. I suppose it will be our Board of Directors, listening to the major players in town, who decide what direction we'll go in next. That'll be a while anyhow.
Specific routes, projected construction/completion dates?

[CityLove]

Specific routes, projected construction/completion dates?
This information should be released this month or next.

TG2

[CTroyMathis]

As a tangent, I saw a mini-crowd of 11 people get on at once over by the Idle Rich today at 11.45ish. Found that interesting.

T-Chica, can you expand on why DART wants MATA to be free? (Roughly adding up in head, that could be around $300K at $2/ride at 425 pax/day... minus however many of those riders are going chartered...)

[CityLove]

It's my understanding that DART believes our ridership is where it is precisely because we are free.

TG2

[RobertB]

Not sure about Oak Cliff. "Downtown" is our first priority, and there are people who'd like to see Knox-Henderson after that. I can tell you the Knox-Henderson expansion would be much less of a hassle than the southern extension we're working on...the route's pretty easy to figure out (keep going north up McKinney, back south on Cole, with some sort of a ladder in between), and the utilities would more than likely be much less of a hassle than they are downtown.

We have to take these things one at a time.

Anybody have any other questions?

TG2
"Anybody have any other questions?" Now there's a Pandora's Box. :)

I see your point about Oak Cliff, of course... it's tough enough just focusing on the core committment to Uptown (whose merchants pay your bills), plus trying to get connected to the Downtown core.

Of course, in the previous streetcar days, there were multiple systems, right? Perhaps Oak Cliff merchants should get with DART and the city of Dallas to create a second streetcar system, separate from MATA? Call it something like the Oak Cliff Línea Eléctrica - the ¡OLE! line. The starter system could connect Methodist via Bishop Ave to Jefferson Ave to the car barn at Tyler/Vernon DART station -- that would eliminate the difficulties of running track across a road bridge that never held rail lines.

But if such a proposal were to get off the ground -- it would take a huge committment from the OC merchants and community, starting with a willingness to tear up Jefferson Ave. -- would it siphon funds away from MATA?

[woodrg0]

The biggest problem is that eveyone wants streetcars but nobody wants to pay for them.
amen...trolley girl...how's the new gig? i am going to start operating again very soon. i i have missed seeing you around the barn....

[drumguy8800]

i i have missed seeing you around the barn....
Ninjatune * trolleygirl2
woorg0 * trolleygirl

Trolley-love :suave: :rolleyes:

[texman]

woodgr0, your a federalist? Didn't that political party die in the late 1700s?

[CTroyMathis]

"Oak Cliff Línea Eléctrica - the ¡OLE! line"

Robert, you are now required to expand on this further and make this an official 'blueprint' idea thread. :)
I have similar ideas in just about everything I've seen you ever post regarding rail, so I gotta see this one too now. Word.

[CityLove]

Ninjatune * trolleygirl2
woorg0 * trolleygirl

Trolley-love :suave: :rolleyes:
Um, not so much.



woodrg0: You'll need to renew your license and get retested. It's been several months since you operated. I know that's not news to you or anything...

I could use some help on the charters though...

TG2

[trolleygirl]

Um, not so much.



woodrg0: You'll need to renew your license and get retested. It's been several months since you operated. I know that's not news to you or anything...

I could use some help on the charters though...

TG2

I probably should do the same.....I just don't ever have time, sorry tg2.

[RobertB]

"Oak Cliff Línea Eléctrica - the ¡OLE! line"

Robert, you are now required to expand on this further and make this an official 'blueprint' idea thread. :)
I have similar ideas in just about everything I've seen you ever post regarding rail, so I gotta see this one too now. Word.
*blushes*

It would be the same as the plan I drew before (linky (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showpost.php?p=49162&postcount=39)), except that the line ends at Methodist Hospital on the north and extends to the car barn across the street from Tyler/Vernon Station. If I start working on an expansion towards Sunset High, maybe to Cockrell Hill... I'm gonna get fired. :)

[tamtagon]

The action is taking place--right now--in meetings and planning. We have a BOD member dedicated to the downtown extension. Keep your eyes peeled in the next month or two for an announcement. We've got a route in mind, and are getting the right people on board before we release it.

Just rest assured, the right people are working on this.

Can you share how soon MATA will have an extention announcement?

[CityLove]

Can you share how soon MATA will have an extention announcement?


Even I don't know for sure, but I'd say possibly as soon as within the next month. Just wrapping up the final details right now. I'll let you guys know as soon as I hear something.

TG2

[tamtagon]

Even I don't know for sure, but I'd say possibly as soon as within the next month. Just wrapping up the final details right now. I'll let you guys know as soon as I hear something.

TG2

Thanks trolley chica.

[clipper]

I was peeping in the trolley barn last night and saw the work underway on what looked like a 1920s trolley with a modern AC unit on the roof. Does anybody know what's up with that? Is it an old car they purchased or a new one from the wheels up?

[Haretip]

If memory serves me correctly, that is a 1913 ex-Fort Worth interurban No. 332 which was operated by North Texas Traction as a freight motor. It would haul luggage, parcels, etc. inbetween Fort Worth, Cleburne and Greater Dallas. It was also equipped with an ice tray in the floor to haul milk butter and eggs in from the countryside.

MATA has conducted extensive surveys and market research in the Uptown neighborhood and has determined a very low demand for electric less-than-carload (LCL) freight service. Apparently UPS is doing an adequate job. Therefore, they have decided to convert the freight motor into a parlor/diner car to try to attract higher-end charters and perhaps a fix menu reservation only dinner train on occasion.

I think the interior is suppose to have different configurations including dining tables for 28, full bar, restroom, air conditioning, removable dance floor, board meeting table, and modern sound system.

The air conditioning cowl off of the top is a Sutrak, the same as what DART uses. MATA borrowed the cowl from DART to use as a template to figure out how to mount the Sutrak system. In the meantime, they decided to go with a different type of AC system. The cowl was taking up too much floor space, so they threw it on top of the car to get it out of the way. You should have seen it when I took my spare Siemens pantograph down there and threw it on top for a joke.

[texman]

I think the interior is suppose to have different configurations including dining tables for 28, full bar, restroom, air conditioning, removable dance floor, board meeting table, and modern sound system.

Please tell me your kidding.

[Haretip]

No sir. Dead serious.

Charters have been and continue to be big business. The streetcar would have ceased to exist in the winter of 1993 if not for the charter business.

All of the existing cars are configured to carry passengers. Why not configure a parlor (party) car for the purposes of generating additional revenue?

That and the Spelling Gestapo wants you to know that you should have said "Please tell me you're kidding."

[clipper]

They used to have party streetcars in Toronto.

[Columbus Civil]

They should put full bars in all of the cars.

[CityLove]

http://www.tramrestaurant.com.au/

Our dining car won't be quite the same--it's smaller, so we won't have a full kitchen on board, etc. And yes, we are working on different configurations for the car to fit different occasions. Our charter business continues to be a big support for us, and this car would bring us to a new level.

TG2

[St-T]

Sweet!!! I would totally do the drunken-trolley!!

[RobertB]

I think the party car sounds like a great idea. I'd love to take my wife out for dinner like that. I hope it's not quite as expensive as the Aussie version, though... $55 (in US dollars) is a bit much for lunch (and even higher for dinner), though if you get the chef from the Mansion to serve up the entrees, maybe the market will be there.

Here's the part where I wonder if Haretip is pulling our legs:

MATA has conducted extensive surveys and market research in the Uptown neighborhood and has determined a very low demand for electric less-than-carload (LCL) freight service. Apparently UPS is doing an adequate job.
You didn't *really* conduct a survey to find out that there wasn't a market to load up trolley cars with freight bound from Cityplace to Downtown, did you?

[tamtagon]

^Charter Party Cars, and Charter Dining Car would be much more successful on a circular route. As long as the tracks have a "start" and an "end" all potential services are restricted. But, as soon as the trolley rolls through Oak Lawn, Uptown, Downtown, Deep Ellum and back through Uptown, then these novelty services will become very popular, very popular in Dallas, especially, and with propper alignments (Deep Ellum to West Village in no more than 10 minutes), the use of the trolley for access to the city's entertainment districts would see resident ridership generate a profitable revenue.

[Columbus Civil]

^Charter Party Cars, and Charter Dining Car would be much more successful on a circular route. As long as the tracks have a "start" and an "end" all potential services are restricted. But, as soon as the trolley rolls through Oak Lawn, Uptown, Downtown, Deep Ellum and back through Uptown, then these novelty services will become very popular, very popular in Dallas, especially, and with propper alignments (Deep Ellum to West Village in no more than 10 minutes), the use of the trolley for access to the city's entertainment districts would see resident ridership generate a profitable revenue.

I could really see this catching on.

[Haretip]

I think the party car sounds like a great idea. I'd love to take my wife out for dinner like that. I hope it's not quite as expensive as the Aussie version, though... $55 (in US dollars) is a bit much for lunch (and even higher for dinner), though if you get the chef from the Mansion to serve up the entrees, maybe the market will be there.

Here's the part where I wonder if Haretip is pulling our legs:

You didn't *really* conduct a survey to find out that there wasn't a market to load up trolley cars with freight bound from Cityplace to Downtown, did you?

Of course not. We did the survey in 1993 before the streetcar tracks were extended to Cityplace. The focus of our research was between Hall Street and downtown.

Just kidding. That LCL freight service is a standard joke down at the carbarn when we tell people we are rebuilding a freight car.

332 Specifications (http://www.mata.org/332specs.shtml)

http://www.mata.org/images/332blue-end-tn.jpg http://www.mata.org/images/1996Jul20-tn.jpg http://www.mata.org/images/1992Oct-unload-tn.jpg

[RobertB]

332 Specifications (http://www.mata.org/332specs.shtml)
Here's an interesting tidbit:

"The car will be air conditioned ? the first air conditioned wood-bodied interurban car in America."

In all the years and all the vintage/heritage trolley car systems in the country, you're saying that nobody has put an a/c unit on a wooden trolley? I wonder why not?

Also:

"Inside, turned wood columns are being installed at each window. Each window column will be topped by a caryatid (a draped female figure). The interior woodwork will be two-toned red mahogany and light cherry."

For some reason, I was briefly reminded of the Janet Jackson "wardrobe malfunction" fiasco...