MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[sdub]

"There has been a definite shift in our mission," said Phil Cobb, president of the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. "We're not just a little Uptown tourist attraction anymore."



"We'll have to be more transit-oriented," Cobb said. "We'll have to be faster, we'll have to be cleaner, we'll have to run on schedule and we'll have to add more cars."


Good stuff here. I'm sure it will take a while but I like that they are expanding their vision.

[tamtagon]

So, just to check, any new streetcar tracks laid in Dallas (and Fort Worth) will accommodate both the contemporary and vintage vehicles, right?

[electricron]

So, just to check, any new streetcar tracks laid in Dallas (and Fort Worth) will accommodate both the contemporary and vintage vehicles, right?
Yes, the cheapest rail you can buy today is 115 lbs. New catenary wires can be designed to work efficiently for both trolley poles and pantographs.

I read that MATA, in the news article, only mentions running newer PCC cars on McKinney Avenue, not brand new Skoda streetcars being planned elsewhere.

[mjblazin]

Where is the new turntable going to at Cityplace? I can't tell if the little shack to the left of the turntable in the DMN sketch is the West entrance to the Cityplace DART station. If it is, then the turntable will be in the dirt/weed field that I have to cross to get to the trolley/on walk to West Village. It already has piece of track in it that now serves no purpose.

[dfwcre8tive]

Where is the new turntable going to at Cityplace? I can't tell if the little shack to the left of the turntable in the DMN sketch is the West entrance to the Cityplace DART station. If it is, then the turntable will be in the dirt/weed field that I have to cross to get to the trolley/on walk to West Village. It already has piece of track in it that now serves no purpose.

That's where it will go, in the current dirt area at the end of the tracks (which will become "Unity Plaza")

[quietthings]

That's where it will go, in the current dirt area at the end of the tracks (which will become "Unity Plaza")

Unity Plaza...does this mean the entrance to Cityplace Station is getting converted into what it was originally supposed to be?

[dfwcre8tive]

Unity Plaza...does this mean the entrance to Cityplace Station is getting converted into what it was originally supposed to be?

Well, I don't know when or if it will actually be built, but the project is still on the list as of 2009.

http://www.dallas-ecodev.org/SiteContent/66/documents/Incentives/TIFs/Cityplace/CityPlace_marketing.pdf

[electricron]

Txcn story http://www.txcn.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/tv/stories/DN-roundabout_23met.ART.State.Edition1.4d7a060.html

Neal Sleeper, president of the Cityplace Co., which has developed much of the West Village area of Uptown, said the company, in cooperation with the city of Dallas, will start work this autumn on a streetcar turntable near the west entrance to the DART Cityplace Station. The project is expected to take 10 months to complete. Money for construction of the turntable would come from Cityplace TIF funds, which are tax funds specifically designated to improve specified districts.
The turntable would cost about $400,000, Sleeper said. But it was unclear how much the entire project – which would also include landscaping, seating, a pergola-like cover and, possibly, DART station improvements – would cost. Cityplace officials have only just now begun accepting bids on the project, he said.
The turntable is part of a $12 million project that also includes two parks along Blackburn Street on land formerly occupied by the Hank Haney Golf Center. The center was torn down in February to make room for street extensions. Sleeper said his company hopes that the turntable will increase foot traffic and encourage private development on nearby lots.

Sorry for the image size, but here's a photo where the general location of the turntable at Cityplace will be.
http://acm.jhu.edu/~sthurmovik/Railpics/07-04-17_MCKINNEY_AVE_TROLLEY/McKinney-Ave_Cityplace-stub+DART_Cityplace-headhouse.jpg

[quietthings]

Agh that station entrance is so ugly.

[Haretip]

MATA's preferred rail is 90 lb, No. 1 relay, which is still available.

[Haretip]

Turntable installation and improvement of area around DART station... ...If the turntable is installed at Citiplace and the downtown extension has a turnaround, they will finally be able to use the single-ended Toronto PCCs currently in storage at DART.

Don't forget that you read about it on the DFW Metropolis Urban Forum first.

MATA to install turntable. (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-roundabout_23met.ART.State.Edition1.4d7a060.html)

[NTexUnited]

Upgrading MATA to allow for newer cars seems to me, a must. An extension up McKinney to Knox and back down Cole would, I think draw plenty of riders, and in the future serve as a connection, maybe across Monticello, to a streetcar that could run up and down Greenville and/or McMilllan. That would connect residential with employment/shopping/entertainment, what the Feds are hoping for in the Oak Cliff project. Further along the line (pun intended) a greenville line could go up to Mockingbird and beyond, serving the Village and those other condos that SMU kids live in, possibly crossing back over Central to serve the campus, replacing the Mustang Express, maybe it could even pass by Snider plaza. Yes, I'm getting ahead of myself, but there's your ridership in my opinion.

[tamtagon]

MATA's preferred rail is 90 lb, No. 1 relay, which is still available.

How often does a rail need to be replaced? At some point, most of the current route along McKinney will more or less be replaced, and I think it should be done so that the new streetcars can take the tracks, too. All streetcar tracks in Dallas should eventually host the new and vintage cars.

[Haretip]

Tam, electricron is wrong. There is nothing wrong with the tracks that are there now. They do not need to be upgraded.

My point on the previous post is that he is also wrong when he says the smallest rail you can get is 115.

The guy is real good at looking stuff up on the internet, but he is an armchair engineer.

[tamtagon]

There is nothing wrong with the tracks that are there now. They do not need to be upgraded.

If the streetcar actually returns to Dallas as an accepted and popular way to get around the central city, access to McKinney Avenue cannot be limited by the capacity of the rail in the road. Personally, I would prefer the largest fleet of vintage streetcars possible, but it seems inevitable that modern streetcars will be part of the offering - especially since a SW2NE / Cotton Belt vehicle production facility is practically ensured.

Actually, I'm totally drawn to the idea that all locally used public transportation vehicles are built in the area. One way to guarantee popular support streetcars, commuter trains, light rail trains and light rail - commuter train hybrids is to hire the local population to make them. How ironic it could be: in Arlington right next to the General Motors plant is the North Texas Rail Car production and maintenance plant. I imagine the promise of these jobs would be enough to convince Arlington residents to get on the train. If State laws are not changed to favor mass transit, Arlington and Grand Prairie could create a loophole that allows them to use taxes collected for economic development to go toward building the passenger rail infrastructure which will connect production & maintenance facilities to the region's rail systems. Hum. That's an idea. Arlington workers could build next generation inner city passenger trains for cities Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, Arkansas ....


Tam, electricron is wrong....The guy is real good at looking stuff up on the internet, but he an armchair engineer.

Situations like this form the learning core of this forum. The real world experience and actuality you and a few others give these discussions coupled with intensely curious armchair engineering have made transit topics on this forum exceptionally educational, creative and actionable. The soap opera that flairs up occasionally between passionate participants is small potatoes and gladly endured.

[NTexUnited]

Tam, electricron is wrong. The guy is real good at looking stuff up on the internet, but he is an armchair engineer.
Dude, electricron has offered nothing but good stuff since I have been on the board. Did it occur to you that he could be an actual engineer? Do you know him? What are your qualifications for dismissing other people's posts? Keep it constructive.

[electricron]

Tam, electricron is wrong. There is nothing wrong with the tracks that are there now. They do not need to be upgraded. My point on the previous post is that he is also wrong when he says the smallest rail you can get is 115. The guy is real good at looking stuff up on the internet, but he is an armchair engineer.

True, I am an armchair engineer. But that doesn't make me wrong. At least I can comprehend what I read.
I never wrote the smallest rail you can get is 115 pounds per yard. What I wrote was the cheapest rail one can get is 115 pounds per yard, and that is two entirely different concepts.

Per the wiki article I linked earlier, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tracks
"Rail classification (weight)
Rail is graded by weight over a standard length. Heavier rail can support greater axle loads and higher train speeds without sustaining damage than lighter rail, but at a greater cost. In North America and the UK, rail is graded in pounds per yard (usually shown as pound or lb), so 130-pound rail would weigh 130 lb/yd (64.5 kg/m). The usual range is 115 to 141 lb/yd (57.0 to 69.9 kg/m).

I don't think I'm taking too many liberties stating that standard (usual) grade classifications are cheaper to buy than special grade classifications. But I will admit I haven't gone out and priced rail stock.

[Haretip]

Smaller=less metal=cheaper. Yeah, I still think the 90lb no.1 relay would be less, although it has been a couple of years since I've purchased any rail. I still have a few sticks.

Good data research, ron, but I think you are misleading people by implying the McKinney Avenue line has to be rebuilt to host modern cars.

[electricron]

Smaller=less metal=cheaper. Yeah, I still think the 90lb no.1 relay would be less, although it has been a couple of years since I've purchased any rail. I still have a few sticks.

Good data research, ron, but I think you are misleading people by implying the McKinney Avenue line has to be rebuilt to host modern cars.

I don't think I am. Why are some advocating paying to ride new streetcars on MATA tracks when the MATA trolleys are free? May one answer be that the new trains should be faster? Well, as the links I have provided show, class of track not only determines how heavy the trains they can support, but also how fast the trains can go...

New Skoda streetcar maximum weight is 87,612 pounds (39,740 kg). Motor drive rated at 340 kW (4 x 85 kW).
Source: http://www.lightrail.com/photos/portland/portlandstreetcar/portlandstreetcar.htm
Old PCC streetcar maximum weight is 53,000 pounds (24.040 kg). One hour motor capacity is 164 kW (4 x 41 kW)
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TTC_Presidents%27_Conference_Car
New Skoda streetcars are twice as powerful, and weigh more than half again as much as the soon to be operating PCC streetcars for MATA.
369 - Matilda (W2 Melbourne class) streetcar weighs 34,400 pounds (15,604 kg). Motor drive rated at 120 kW (4 x 30 kW).
Sources: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W_class_Melbourne_tram and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinney_Avenue_Transit_Authority
New Skoda streetcars are almost three times as powerful, and weigh more than twice as much as some of the historic running streetcars for MATA.

Just looking at the statistics, if you're expecting to run modern Skoda streetcars at a faster speed on McKinney Avenue for commuters, you're going to want to have heavier tracks in the streets. It may be possible to buy the new Skoda streetcars and run them over old MATA tracks at the same relatively slow speeds the historic trolleys run. But I don't think passengers would be willing to pay to ride that slow.

Just for comparison purposes, heres the relative DART SLRV specifications.
Weight = 140,000 pounds
Power = 522 kW (4 x 130.5 kW) (4 x 175 hp)
Source: http://www.dart.org/newsroom/dartrailfacts.asp

[Haretip]

Swing and a miss. Strike two.

[electricron]

Swing and a miss. Strike two.

Then why did the Dallas Observer print this?
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/06/darts_point_man_on_streetcars.php


"The goals are simple," says Jay Kline, DART's liaison with the city on streetcars. "Get it built to modern streetcar standards so if and when we have a modern system, we can put a modern vehicle on there without redoing it. And we want to get as close as we can to a downtown light rail station."

Mr. Cline was discussing the new extensions of the MATA line into downtown Dallas on Olive. There's no question in my mind that he doesn't think the existing tracks on McKinney Avenue are built for modern streetcars, whatever the reason is. And that's why the drawings show an additional loop near Woodall Rodgers Freeway, where the new laid tracks begin. Otherwise, the drawings wouldn't show that extra return loop.........

Ball 4 , I'm on first!

[Haretip]

No, again you just don't understand what you are pulling off the internet and your pseudo authoritarian position misleads others.

Strike 3 your out.

[NTexUnited]

No, again you just don't understand what you are pulling off the internet and your pseudo authoritarian position misleads others.

Strike 3 your out.

Present your credentials.

[Haretip]

Email me for a copy of my resume.

[tamtagon]

I know the McKinney Avenue's existing track structure intimately.

I know that's right.

[tamtagon]

If the new streetcars are too big to use on the same kind of tracks the vintage streetcars use, then maybe the new ones are too big.

Modernizing the old cars is less expensive than buying new cars, so if there are enough vintage cars on the market that use MATA-gage lines to run across East Dallas to Fair Park, also across DTD to Oak Cliff and back, DTFW to the Cultural District, then maybe the Fed grants should get busy buying all the usable vintage streetcars.

How many of the usable vintage cars are out there? Is the track less expensive?

[elmstreetdallas]

No, again you just don't understand what you are pulling off the internet and your pseudo authoritarian position misleads others.

Strike 3 your out.


And you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're."

[eirin]

I've been kind of wondering why this thread turned into a drawn out spat.

[sdub]

I've been kind of wondering why this thread turned into a drawn out spat.

At 12 pages, it's overdue.

[Haretip]

And you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're."

Actually I do know the difference. But, when I am typing quickly or passionately, my fingertip muscle memory is more likely to type your than you're. When I was still actively working on my German, it was very common for me to type "und" instead of "and" and I will frequently type "my" instead of "me". Has nothing to do with my grammar skills.

[Haretip]

I've been kind of wondering why this thread turned into a drawn out spat.

I have frequently run into Electricron saying stuff that sounds good but is just not right. I think he has said in the past that he is a retired electrician or perhaps is a current practicing electrician but I just don't understand where he gets off misleading people about this stuff.

We just repaved McKinney Avenue a few years ago between Allen and Routh and at that time the track was evaluated to its foundation. It was found to be in great condition. It is not rails on wood crossties but depending on where you core sample it or expose it, it is angle iron crossties on concrete slab embedded in concrete or other similar construction with a lot of concrete. In cases were we do have embedded crossties, they have been removed in condition consistent with brand new ties. Except in certain places (primarily repair utility cuts), it is in good condition and and the geometry is perfectly capable of being utilized by modern streetcars. The primary exception is the curve radii at Blackburn and the Lemmon/Cole compound curve. If you start telling merchants along McKinney that the rails are going to have to be redone, I think they'd form a hanging party.

The article on Unfair Park refers to the design of the extension into downtown. It was decided that the engineering needed to be done on the curves of the extension in manner that they would be suitable for modern streetcars.



Dude, electricron has offered nothing but good stuff since I have been on the board. Did it occur to you that he could be an actual engineer? Do you know him? What are your qualifications for dismissing other people's posts? Keep it constructive.

NTexUnited, I am sorry if I come off as a crank, but I have been seeing this misguided information on here and on the Fort Worth forum for a long time now. How do you know it's good stuff from a technical standpoint? I see BS, I gotto call it. I'm not going to let false and misleading statements go unchallenged.

[electricron]

I have frequently run into Electricron saying stuff that sounds good but is just not right. I think he has said in the past that he is a retired electrician or perhaps is a current practicing electrician but I just don't understand where he gets off misleading people about this stuff.

If you start telling merchants along McKinney that the rails are going to have to be redone, I think they'd form a hanging party.

The article on Unfair Park refers to the design of the extension into downtown. It was decided that the engineering needed to be done on the curves of the extension in manner that they would be suitable for modern streetcars.

Except in certain places (primarily repair utility cuts), it is in good condition and and the geometry is perfectly capable of being utilized by modern streetcars. The primary exception is the curve radii at Blackburn and the Lemmon/Cole compound curve.

I express my opinions and I readily admit I don't have all the data to give an EXPERT opinion. I have answered your question why I believe what I do. I am a retire electrician, and I have worked with engineers my whole career...
You're the expert, but refuse to back up what you state with any coherent facts.....

Like what I am specifically quoting from your last reply. What does your words except and exception mean?
Obviously, some rework afterall will be required to run modern Skoda streetcars on McKinney Avenue.

I'm the one who has stated MATA should keep trolleys and PCC cars on McKinney Avenue because I don't think modern streetcars are needed on it. Otherwise, it'll probably lose its historic charm, and free rides. I have not in any way advocated tearing up McKinney Avenue. Who's BS whom?

[Haretip]

I have not in any way advocated tearing up McKinney Avenue.

OK, I suppose I have to parse every word. Your comments make people think that McKinney Avenue will have to be reconstructed and that the current rails can't support a modern streetcar.


Second, the old rails on McKinney Ave. are not strong enough to carry the new modern streetcars. New rails built today are at least 115 pounds per yard, most of the old rails on McKinney Ave. are 90 pounds per yard. Third, the way the catenary wires are hung are different. MATA old trolleys use trolley poles while modern streetcars use pantographs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_pole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph_(rail)

To run new modern streetcars on McKinney Ave., it will require major changes and reconstruction of the rails and catenary wires. It's easy to engineer accommodating both old and new streetcars on new sections of tracks, but difficult to upgrade on older sections of tracks, short of redesigning and rebuildiing most of the older sections of tracks.


At some point, most of the current route along McKinney will more or less be replaced, and I think it should be done so that the new streetcars can take the tracks, too. All streetcar tracks in Dallas should eventually host the new and vintage cars.

I agree with you all. I am wrong, Electricron is right. His facts from the internet beat my experience on the line. I suppose I might be able to win the argument if I just took the time to post a footnoted report, but I don't have the time for it, so I'll leave y'all to discuss and conjecture on transit.

It's not fair for my to kvetch about comments I believe are inane and irrelevant if I can't take the time to fully document my reply, so I will leave it be.

[electricron]

I really didn't want an argument or debate. But I'm not going to shy away from a discussion. I've felt I've discussed this topic without personal attacks. I've already admitted I'm not an expert, but I believe I've tried to back up my opinions with facts actually quoted from the web from the links provided. I don't think I've been taking quotes out of context misleading people as I've been accused. Can we agree to disagree.

[Haretip]

Only a few blocks of the MATA line is 90 lb rail on crossties. Most is a larger, oddball size for which I can not quote the profile number or weight off the top of my head.

Most of the track in the MATA line is not of the new track construction detail shown in the plans on file in the City Survey Vault under file No. 711D and shown in the photo above in the thread. Most of it is steel crossties embedded in a substantial reinforced concrete track slab. I can't remember the exact depth but I believe it was 18 or 24 inches. I do not have enough information at hand to show you the load/speed characteristics of that track structure. I feel that it is sufficient for a modern car that should not be exceeding the posted automobile speed limit anyway.

Most of the existing trolley wire can be used by pantographs with the addition of rails at the frog locations.

Why is Inekon(skoda) the preferred modern car? It seems to me that one would spec a car with a turning radius compatible with the existing line. I am partial to the Bombardier car being built for Toronto with a turning radius of 11 meters. The ability to utilize the existing track may well cover the additional expense. As well, if we are anticipating a joint order with Fort Worth, their downtown route constrictions may lean towards the Bombardier car as well.

Since Oregon Iron Works has not been able to meet certification for revenue operation of the American produced Inekon style streetcar, I wouldn't stick all my eggs in that basket at this time. Especially since it seems like the next copies produced for Tucson are going to come in at a substantially higher price than was anticipated.

I realized as I was finishing a 20 page engineering report on a private water supply system at 11:00 o'clock at night that I really don't have time to do a report on the feasibility of running modern cars on the existing track of the MATA line and without backing up my critique of ER's posts, I shouldn't be doing it. So I am pretty much done. I still believe that modern streetcars can run on the MATA line without major changes and reconstruction of the rails and power distribution system (MATA has no catenary - all simple trolley wire).

[electricron]

Why is Inekon(skoda) the preferred modern car? It seems to me that one would spec a car with a turning radius compatible with the existing line. I am partial to the Bombardier car being built for Toronto with a turning radius of 11 meters. The ability to utilize the existing track may well cover the additional expense. As well, if we are anticipating a joint order with Fort Worth, their downtown route constrictions may lean towards the Bombardier car as well.

Since Oregon Iron Works has not been able to meet certification for revenue operation of the American produced Inekon style streetcar, I wouldn't stick all my eggs in that basket at this time. Especially since it seems like the next copies produced for Tucson are going to come in at a substantially higher price than was anticipated.

That's news to me, I though Oregon Iron Works streetcars were operating on Portland streets, but maybe I'm wrong. The reason its usually the preferred streetcar choice is because it is American made, eligible for receiving FTA matching funds under the Buy American provisions. But it isn't the only choice available for transit agencies.
The Bombardier streetcar train is being made in Thunder Bay, in Canada. Toronto will be buying hundreds of them, effectively tying up the assembly line for a few years. I suppose someone could reach an agreement with Toronto to get a sooner place in line. Bombardier's streetcar would be a great choice too, there's a valid reason why Toronto chose them. But they wouldn't be eligible for matching Federal funds.....
The CAF extended streetcar is being made in Elmira, NY. It's as big as a light rail vehicle. Houston's Metro is buying them vs buying more light rail trains. It's eligible for Federal matching funds. Does Dallas need streetcars that large?
So there are other choices available. Which will be bought will probably be determined by following DART's purchasing process.
United Streetcar by Oregon Iron Works
http://railforthevalley.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/12322_10t_19.jpg
http://unitedstreetcar.com/

Flexity Streetcar by Bombardier
http://www.lightrailnow.org/images02/tor-lrt-rend-new-stc-20070300_transit-toronto.jpg
http://www.bombardier.com/en/transportation/products-services/rail-vehicles/light-rail-vehicles?docID=0901260d8000a536

Light rail/subway trains by CAF
http://blogs.ridemetro.org/images/write_on/NRail_05.jpg
http://www.caf.es/ingles/productos/proyecto.php?id=561&cod=4&sec=desc

[Haretip]

The OIW car has been returned to the manufacturer for additional work.

[NTexUnited]

NTexUnited, I am sorry if I come off as a crank, but I have been seeing this misguided information on here and on the Fort Worth forum for a long time now. How do you know it's good stuff from a technical standpoint? I see BS, I gotto call it. I'm not going to let false and misleading statements go unchallenged.
Hey, I am the furthest you could get from being an expert on rail, or just about anything for that matter. So, no, from a purely technical standpoint, I couldn't tell if the info electricron posts is bonafied engineering expertise or simply culled info from the interwebs. I just want to keep it positive. Nobody of authority will refer to the forum to decide how to proceed with MATA's expansion, so don't accost anybody for posting less-than-accurate info. The reason most posters contribute to the rail+guided transit threads is simply because they're enthusiastic fans of rail development. I'm glad there are so many of us who are. That said, I like the expertise you bring to the forum, and most of your posts are highly informative. Obviously, you're some type of engineer, I can surmise that just by reading your posts. I don't need to see a resume. Save those for someone who can pay you (because I certainly cannot!)

Whatever happens with the expansion, it will be good for us. Especially when most transit agencies are suffering.

[utgf]

Looks like the F-Line in San Francisco will soon be running a PCC streetcar painted in Dallas Railway & Terminal Co. colors of cherry red and cream from 1948, in honor of one of the few cities that ran the double-end PCCs.

http://streetcar.org/uploads/illustration-1009.png

From Market Street Railway (http://streetcar.org/blog/2009/09/painting-torpedoes-dallas-texas.html)

As a celebration of this most successful streetcar type in American history, Muni has painted its PCCs in the paint schemes, or “liveries,” of cities that once ran PCCs. But double-end PCCs were rare. The only systems that ran them were Muni, Philadelphia’s Red Arrow Line, Illinois Terminal Railroad serving suburban St. Louis, Southern California’s Pacific Electric (which ran double-end cars with front and center doors, much different looking than Muni’s), Dallas, and Boston (which bought Dallas’ cars second-hand).

From Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/fea/travel/thisweek/stories/DN-sfotrams_0808tra.State.Edition1.54722d.html)

Later this year, a tram stylishly painted in the 1948 cherry red and cream of the Dallas Railway & Terminal Co. will join the fleet.

[dmorg12345]

I rode the trolley from Schaffer Plaza to West Village on Monday and it was perfectly on time, maybe it is easier to be on time at 8 pm rather than 6 pm though. Google maps public trans directions and the trolley make it really easy to get around Uptown efficiently, plus AC on the trolley.

Has there ever been consideration of getting rid of the leg of the trolley line that runs down to the Cityplace DART station? It is not a very long walk from McKinney to Cityplace and we then could avoid the issue of turning the cars around and adding time it takes a car to make the loop.

[mjblazin]

The plan is to move the leg up to the Cityplace West bus stop and build a little transit center. Consequently that leg will stay.
If the cars were worried about loop time, they would not have that 10-15 minute stop up from Hall Street on McKinney. The schedule is what it is.

[Haretip]

I'm pretty sure that the stop at McKinney Plaza (just south of Hall on McKinney) will disappear as the line is extended to downtown. At afternoon rush hour, that pause gives the cars a buffer to stay on schedule. I'd rather have it pushed to the ends so I don't have to wait in the middle of my trip.

[RobertB]

I drove down St Paul last week, and saw that the #184 bus had gotten a little too buddy-buddy with the streetcar. Things were cleared up later that night, so I assume there was no major damage? I got a picture, but it doesn't show much except for a lot of blinking lights, and a couple of overly cuddly public transportation conveyances.

[Haretip]

That's news to me, I though Oregon Iron Works streetcars were operating on Portland streets, but maybe I'm wrong.

In talking to one of the managers of the Portland system last night, he did confirm that the test model was in fact back at OIW for modifications.

[sheilock]

Today we recieved a notice from the city, at my office (Trammel Crow Tower), announcing various street closures...one of them being the two closest lanes on Olive St next to the building, starting in Spring 2011 for the Trolley project.

[dfwcre8tive]

Today we recieved a notice from the city, at my office (Trammel Crow Tower), announcing various street closures...one of them being the two closest lanes on Olive St next to the building, starting in Spring 2011 for the Trolley project.

That's interesting. I thought they would put the tracks on the lane farthest from the building on the right side of the street, for better operation when it becomes a complete loop. If Olive ever went back to 2-way operation it would make things difficult.

[dfwcre8tive]

Dallas council approves funds to extend McKinney Avenue Trolley
9:47 AM Wed, Aug 25, 2010 | Permalink
Rudolph Bush/Reporter
http://cityhallblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/08/dallas-council-approves-funds.html

Lots of people are excited about the plan to extend the McKinney Avenue Trolley to Bryan Street.

The City Council this morning approved an $8.4 million contract, largely from bond funds, to help pay for the line's construction.

The line got a boost in July when the federal government kicked in $4.9 million to help bring the line to the future Woodall Rodgers Deck Park.

"This is our first project of this kind in quite some time," council member Linda Koop said.

[mjblazin]

Do they wait for First Baptist to finish its work? It's going to cause a construction pile up south of Ross for a few blocks on St. Paul.

[dfwcre8tive]

Do they wait for First Baptist to finish its work? It's going to cause a construction pile up south of Ross for a few blocks on St. Paul.

True, it would make sense to complete the line down Olive first and get that going...then work on St Paul and complete the loop concurrent to the First Baptist construction.

[lakewoodhobo]

True, it would make sense to complete the line down Olive first and get that going...then work on St Paul and complete the loop concurrent to the First Baptist construction.

Isn't this contract for the Olive extension anyway? This is the phase that was previously funded and ready to go before the federal grant. The St. Paul / Federal St. addition hasn't been designed yet, so they wouldn't award a contract until that happens.