MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[Haretip]

But where will you put them when they're able to run on the MATA line? Isn't the car barn full?

Me? I have enough trouble with Fort Worth streetcar projects to bother with where MATA will put THEIR cars. ;) There is a secret new carbarn site in the works, but I am no longer in the inner circle so I have not been told where that is yet.

[DallasMan]

They really need the streetcar line to go thru the Knox Henderson area and they also need to open the Dart subway station at Knox. If I were a business owner in KH, I would be pushing for this stuff to be done.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

[NTexUnited]

They really need the streetcar line to go thru the Knox Henderson area and they also need to open the Dart subway station at Knox. If I were a business owner in KH, I would be pushing for this stuff to be done.
It would be a whole lot easier if Knox/Henderson had a large development of the mixed-use variety such as West Vil. Does anyone know if West Ville's developers put any money into the looping of MATA? That's how, I believe, streetcars can make a resurgence, especially in redeveloping urban areas neglected for so long. Developers can be the utility companies of old, which funded streetcars back in the day. If my recollection is correct, some of those lines ended up paying for themselves. Streetcar projects are on a scale, financially speaking, smaller than commuter or light-rail projects, and don't need gobs of federal matching funds to implement. The big urban development players (read Harwood, Billingsley, Crow), or one of Dallas's wealthy private benefactors (read Pickens, Simmons, Hunt) could sponsor a line. I read frequently about private donations in the eight to nine figure range for public places like Parkland and UTsouthwestern, why not fund a modern streetcar? It might serve developers by reducing the amount of required parking spaces for their urban, higher-density projects.

BTW, I don't believe MATA's spring newsletter (http://mata.org/mline-spring-2010.pdf) has been posted, so there. No mention of any turntables, but a word or two on Olive st. extension, plus a mention of the continuing upgrade to #754. But the letter could've been published a while ago. Any updates on 754?

Edit: I did a little research, and found a private donation (Clemments gift to UTsouthwestern (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showpost.php?p=339522&postcount=25) ), that exceeds the total cost of the DT-oak cliff line (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/transportation/stories/DN-streetcars_18met.ART.State.Edition2.4c05b86.html) , which received TIGER funding. Of course, the need for public health exceeds the need for public transportation, but streetcars would serve both (qualitatively) by removing a few more cars from the road, and encouraging citizens to use their feet to ride streetcars for the short errands they could facilitate, instead of hopping in their cars to go down the street to CVS.

[dfwcre8tive]

Look, Streetcars! Or: You Find the Most Amazing Things While Stuck on a DART Train.
By Robert Wilonsky, Sunday, Jun. 27 2010 @ 5:11PM
Categories: Things We Like
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/06/streetcars_or_you_find_the_mos.php
...

The Texas-OU test run had been abbreviated, and the train operator who thought he'd done a clean sweep at Fair Park didn't realize he'd left three passengers on the train. Long story short: Thirty minutes later we were traipsing over rail yard track and put in a shuttle back to the MLK Jr. station. But not before we had plenty of time to gawk at two old TTC streetcars parked along a brick wall, at least one of which used to be in the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority stock.

...

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/streetcar_picnik.jpg

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/streetcar2_picnik.jpg

Photos by Harry Wilonsky

[Speedbump Joey]

So what's the story with these two?

[warden62]

So what's the story with these two?

If you read from the beginning of this particular topic (go back to page 1), you can read the entire detailed history of those two cars.

[Speedbump Joey]

If you read from the beginning of this particular topic (go back to page 1), you can read the entire detailed history of those two cars.

No I already knew that they were used here previously. I meant is there any future use for these two. Like seeing these in MATA use soon?

[dfwcre8tive]

No I already knew that they were used here previously. I meant is there any future use for these two. Like seeing these in MATA use soon?

They were purchased for MATA, but can't be used until the turntable at Unity Plaza (Cityplace Station) is installed and a loop in downtown is constructed (the cars are single-ended and can't switch directions, which is currently required).

More info: http://www.mata.org/pccspecs.htm

[dfwcre8tive]

DART's Point Man on Streetcars Talks About Runnin' MATA Track Into Downtown
By Robert Wilonsky, Monday, Jun. 28 2010 @ 5:25PM
Categories: News
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/06/darts_point_man_on_streetcars.php

​In the comments to yesterday's item about stumbling upon those streetcars in the Dallas Area Rapid Transit's rail yards, a few Friends of Unfair Park got to wonderin' about McKinney Avenue Transit Authority's plans for a downtown extension. Which, turns out, was also on the o' my mind after having taken my very first trolley trip (I know -- the shame) just a few days ago from S&D Oyster Company to the Dallas Museum of Art on the 101-year-old Rosie.

Long story short: Long time ago the city got a federal grant, through the Texas Department of Transportation, to expand the MATA trolley line -- which it did, north, through the West Village. But the city never got around to the southbound extension, and TxDOT said, Use it or lose it. And so a southbound extension into downtown was planned for Olive Street, and MATA had been hoping to get it running by early 2009. Which didn't happen, mainly because DART and Dallas wanted to make sure that when the downtown streetcars rolled up they'd fit on the tracks laid for the older cars in the MATA stock.

"The goals are simple," says Jay Kline, DART's liaison with the city on streetcars. "Get it built to modern streetcar standards so if and when we have a modern system, we can put a modern vehicle on there without redoing it. And we want to get as close as we can do a downtown light rail station."

Turns out, MATA's expansion into downtown isn't too far off. Not at all.

Right now the MATA line goes no further than the DMA on St Paul. But the idea is get a line on Olive Street as well -- one that would, of course, go against traffic. Says Kline, that's 100-percent designed. Requests for proposals are out, and all goes according to plan, a contract should be awarded by no later than August -- depending upon how comfy the utilities providers are with the expansion.

As for the downtown streetcars, well, that's a little further in the distance. Remember: DART's got no money to do much of anything, and neither does the city.

"We're trying to use our talents efficiently and effectively to not only look at what would make sense as a productive streetcar system -- on DART's side, integrating with the existing system, including light rail and bus; and on the city's side, what will it pay back in terms of economic development and livability and sustainability," Kline says. "We're about to start working on a system plan on a streetcar system. And we've gotta figure out how to pay for this. So we're looking at how do we pay for capital and operating costs. We don't have the money. The city doesn't. They do have a little bit of seed money from regional grant and federal grants."

Then there's the urban circulator grant for which the city has applied.

"If we are awarded that project, the MATA line would go to Olive Street and make it a complete loop from -- we think -- St. Paul to Federal to Olive," Kline says. "It wouldn't cost a heck of a lot of money, and it would make both MATA and and modern operations much more efficient and safe because there wouldn't be contraflow."

Alas, no go so far on putting in a turntable for the trolleys: It's sitting in a field near the Cityplace Station, awaiting a downtown home. Patience, people. Patience.

Incidentally, as I mention in the comments, I called Kline after trying for a few days to reach MATA officials. Soon as I hear from them I will update accordingly, most likely in a separate post.

[lakewoodhobo]

DMN Transportation Blog thinks MATA will get a grant tomorrow for loop connector:

http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2010/07/stay-tuned-north-texas-to-win.html




Stay tuned: North Texas to win federal transit grant money Thursday
Michael Lindenberger/Reporter

North Texas will hear good news tomorrow when Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announces who will get 53 transit-related grants worth $300 million.

The winners will be announced at 9:45 a.m. our time, and I learned in a phone call from Washington a little while ago that at least one of the winners is in Dallas Fort Worth.

Just who won isn't clear, but three Dallas-area entities submitted applications for the money, according to a senior program manager for the North Central Texas Council of Governments.

* City of Fort Worth submitted their Downtown Streetcar project in the Urban Circulator category.
* DART/City of Dallas jointly submitted the McKinney Ave Trolley extension along Olive Street in the Urban Circulator category.
* DART, The T, and DCTA submitted individual requests for bus replacement funding in the Livability Bus category.

My guess is on the DART MATA funding. We'll find out tomorrow, but meanwhile DART spokesman Morgan Lyons answered a few questions Rodger and I threw his way about the application.

We applied for $4.9 million for the urban circulator MATA connection to St Paul Station. The proposed project is a loop connecting the Olive Street extension to the M-Line on St. Paul and a connection to St. Paul Station.

The MATA is the McKinney Avenue street car that runs for free between Uptown and the downtown Arts District. Other plans already call for it to be expanded somewhat to get passengers closer to some of the new Arts District attractions.




Update: 9:39 a.m.Fort Worth wins big. Lahood to announce in a few minutes that the city gets $24 million for a downtown street car loop.

[dfwcre8tive]

McKinney Avenue Transit Authority, Fort Worth Receive Millions in Urban Circulator Grants
By Robert Wilonsky, Thu., Jul. 8 2010 @ 9:42AM
Categories: News
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/07/mckinney_avenue_transit_author.php

​A couple of weeks ago, we were discussing the future of the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority -- specifically, its plans to create a "connector loop line down St. Paul and up Federal to Olive," in the words of MATA's chief operating officer, John Landrum. MATA and Dallas Area Rapid Transit were hoping that the feds would help pay for some of that so-called urban connector -- and, sure enough, this morning U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood announced that the MATA connector loop will indeed get $4.9 million of the $293 million handed out today as "part of the Obama Administration's livability initiative to better coordinate transportation, housing and commercial development investments to serve the people living in those communities."

But the big winner is Fort Worth, whose Fort Worth Streetcar Loop will get $25 million -- a far cry from the nada it received in Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery funds back in February. There's a conference call with LaHood shortly -- I'm on hold with some funky lite-jazz -- but according to the release, Dallas and Fort Worth are but two of six cities receiving so-called Urban Circulator Grants -- meaning, 59 other applicants didn't receive anything.

Update at 10:06 a.m.: LaHood says Fort Worth's getting the $25 million in federal grants isn't a make-right following Dallas's big TIGER grant win earlier this year. Instead, he says, this is all due to Mayor Mike Moncrief and the Fort Worth city council's sticking to the plan rather than giving up in February. Which is why LaHood called Moncrief this morning to offer his hearty mazel tovs.

"This project will really make a difference," LaHood says of the Fort Worth project. "When you look at Fort Worth, it's mainly because of the mayor and the city and the work they did and their leadership, and I compliment them."

Adds FTA Administrator Peter Rogoff, "When the secretary announced the original TIGER grants, he funded Dallas and not Fort Worth. That had to do with readiness. And the mayor of Fort Worth stayed at it. They didn't take the last competition with Dallas getting the money and them not as a reason to stand down. They took it as a reason to stand up, and as a result they're ready."

Now let's go to the breakdown:
Project: Fort Worth Streetcar Loop (Urban Circulator)
Sponsor: The City of Fort Worth and the Fort Worth Transportation Authority
Amount: $24,990,000

The City of Fort Worth and the Fort Worth Transportation Authority will construct a 2.5-mile one-way streetcar loop with between 20 and 25 stops and three vehicles to connect a Trinity Railway Express commuter rail station and Intermodal Transportation Center with the central business district. This will be the hub of a planned streetcar network connecting six designated "urban villages" targeted for redevelopment to the city's major employment centers, such as downtown and the Near Southside Medical District. Ultimately, the streetcar system will connect residents in four economically disadvantaged areas to job opportunities in major employment centers, while stimulating the redevelopment of walkable urban neighborhoods with a variety of housing choices.

Project: Olive/St. Paul Street Loop (Urban Circulator)
Sponsor: Dallas Area Rapid Transit Authority (DART)
Amount: $4,900,000

The Dallas Area Rapid Transit Authority (DART) will build a 0.65-mile urban streetcar track extension to an existing system. This project would link the current McKinney Trolley to the existing DART light rail St. Paul Station and to the McKinney Trolley Olive Street Extension in the heart of Downtown Dallas. The connection to the Olive Street extension would form an entire reversing loop for the trolley, making operations safer and more efficient, while connecting downtown destinations such as the Dallas Museum of Art and the Nasher Sculpture Center to Uptown Dallas.

[electricron]

This is great news for the entire metroplex.

Finishing the loop in downtown Dallas gives MATA loops on both north and south ends, allowing the use of single cab trolleys.

The main circulating loop in downtown Fort Worth is the heart of their streetcar plans. This allows Fort Worth to test the streetcar waters, and plan and build future extensions from this loop. I wonder how many fence sitters on the Fort Worth city council might jump back onto the streetcar bandwagon?

[citizen]

^

This is wonderful - thanks to all who worked so hard to make this happen

[quietthings]

Really happy for FT Worth! Will they get modern streetcars?

[lakewoodhobo]

Now that both Dallas and Ft. Worth are getting streetcars, I hope they coordinate efforts to ensure some cost savings (like ordering the same type of modern streetcar).

And here is the map for the new alignment (from Unfair Park):

http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/matadowntownloop.jpg

[Fort Worthology]

Really happy for FT Worth! Will they get modern streetcars?

Yes. The plan calls for the Inekon cars or similar, like Portland, etc. uses.

[dfwcre8tive]

In the Loop: A Closer Look at MATA's "Urban Streetcar Track Extension" Downtown
By Robert Wilonsky, Thu., Jul. 8 2010 @ 11:35AM
Categories: News
http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/07/in_the_loop_a_closer_look_at_m.php

​Morgan Lyons, Dallas Area Rapid Transit's spokesman, and Jay Kline, DART's streetcar liaison with the city, were kind enough to forward along this map of the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority's "0.65-mile urban streetcar track extension," just announced as the $4.9-million recipient of a federal Urban Connector Grant.

As DART submitted the grant application and will oversee construction of the loop -- which is indeed expected to connect with the one-day-down-the-line downtown streetcar line, itself the recipient of $23 million in federal money in February -- I asked Lyons when the agencies expect to have the MATA extension completed, to which he responds: "We're coordinating with the city on timing. Our project is scheduled to be completed in late 2012/early 2013."

...

Update at 12:30 p.m.: Lyons sends another update: The feds' $4.9 million grant will "have a local match of $5 million from the North Central Texas Council of Governments." And, says DART President and Executive Director Gary Thomas, "The support of the Department of Transportation and Federal Transit Administration is critical. It's also important to note this would not have been possible without the sustained efforts of Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson. We appreciate all she does to help keep our region moving."

...

[Haretip]

Thanks for posting the map, Lakewoodhobo. I hadn't noticed the green route shown on there. They're really going to run MATA on the westbound service road? Really?

[lakewoodhobo]

Thanks for posting the map, Lakewoodhobo. I had noticed the green route shown on there. They're really going to run MATA on the westbound service road? Really?

You're welcome! I was surprised to see that line as well. It'll be interesting to see how traffic flows through that road once the park is done, but I am pleased to see that MATA cars will not only cross the park in 2 locations, but also run along it on that section as well.

[dfwcre8tive]

Thanks for posting the map, Lakewoodhobo. I hadn't noticed the green route shown on there. They're really going to run MATA on the westbound service road? Really?

I suppose it's a bit better than going all the way to McKinney to turn around. Those street traffic patterns will probably change a lot when the park is finished; adding a streetcar line along the park may slow traffic even more, making it better for pedestrians. Why would that turnaround be needed if streetcars are going to/from McKinney Avenue? Could it serve as a turnaround point for future streetcar lines originating downtown?

[electricron]

I suppose it's a bit better than going all the way to McKinney to turn around. Those street traffic patterns will probably change a lot when the park is finished; adding a streetcar line along the park may slow traffic even more, making it better for pedestrians. Why would that turnaround be needed if streetcars are going to/from McKinney Avenue? Could it serve as a turnaround point for future streetcar lines originating downtown?

That's what I was thinking too. Frankly, it'll be near impossible for the heavier modern streetcars from downtown to run down the tracks on McKinney Avenue. They will need a place to turn around, and the new park is an excellent place to do so.
After all, the existing tracks over Woodall Rogers were built brand new, and all the new tracks will be built to handle the heavier, modern streetcars. Therefore, heavier tracks will exist up to the northern service road of Woodall Rogers anyways, it'll be a waste to not to take full use of them.

[lakewoodhobo]

After all, the existing tracks over Woodall Rogers were built brand new, and all the new tracks will be built to handle the heavier, modern streetcars. Therefore, heavier tracks will exist up to the northern service road of Woodall Rogers anyways, it'll be a waste to not to take full use of them.

That's smart of them to design it that way. So between this new, small downtown loop that's "modern streetcar ready" and the Oak Cliff to Union Station line, all that's needed is to connect the two systems via Elm and/or Commerce and you'll have something very similar to what DART recommended with the D2 study:

http://www.dart.org/images/expansion/d2newsletters/streetcaralignmentb3.gif

[Haretip]

Frankly, it'll be near impossible for the heavier modern streetcars from downtown to run down the tracks on McKinney Avenue. They will need a place to turn around, and the new park is an excellent place to do so.

Again, hate to get in another argument with you, but I don't think you have a full grasp on the situation. Why couldn't a modern streetcar run down McKinney Avenue? I think your statement is not fact based.

[Haretip]

I suppose it's a bit better than going all the way to McKinney to turn around. Those street traffic patterns will probably change a lot when the park is finished; adding a streetcar line along the park may slow traffic even more, making it better for pedestrians. Why would that turnaround be needed if streetcars are going to/from McKinney Avenue? Could it serve as a turnaround point for future streetcar lines originating downtown?


From an operational point of view, a turnaround is desirable for short turns. I wish Hall Street was readily useable, but switch maintenance and inconsiderate parkers usually prevent operations on Hall Street. I think that new exit ramp that comes off Woodall Rogers up to Saint Paul will be a "point of extreme conflict" with automobile operators if a line is built along the service road. My understanding is that the service road belongs to TxDOT and to my knowledge they abhor streetcars on their hiway facilities. I'd be amazed if it was really built that way. It is an easier turn than the acute angle to turn back southwest onto McKinney Avenue, but it does have some strong negatives going for it. A service road is not someplace where you want a traffic calming device (read obstruction) like a streetcar.

[electricron]

Again, hate to get in another argument with you, but I don't think you have a full grasp on the situation. Why couldn't a modern streetcar run down McKinney Avenue? I think your statement is not fact based.

I was under the impression that the steel rails on McKinney Avenue are the old, original rail laid many, many years ago. I am assuming the weight of the old steel rails aren't as high as they can buy today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tracks
The range available today is 115 to 141 lb/yd.

DCTA and DART buy 115 lb rail because it's the cheapest they can buy. That's what the new streetcar lines will have too, for the very same reason.

http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~jwheat/landmarks03.html
Read the last news article:
In 1903, there were 80 lb steel rails being laid on what would be the Rock Island (now TRE line), and streetcar lines were already in service on McKinney Ave. So, there is a good possibility there could be 80 lb rails on McKinney Ave. I'll admit I don't know as I haven't dug up any asphalt to find out, but I'm not going to automatically assume there is 115 lb rails everywhere.
The steel rails available when the tracks were laid aren't necessarily the same that are available today.

[Haretip]

OK. I see what you mean. Most of the rail on MATA is at least 90 lb to my knowledge. Their proposed dining car is just as heavy, if not heavier, than the modern cars on the weight per axle. My main concern would be the clearances on the curves. If I recall correctly, the modern Portland type cars have a poor turning radius that probably wouldn't work on the curves at Blackburn (and the overhang might take out a catenary pole at the same curve). I would strongly encourage all groups to get together to make sure whatever modern car is chosen for Dallas, Oak Cliff and Fort Worth to make sure that the common car type would work on every line - existing or proposed. It may be that one of the Bombardier cars with a tighter turning radius would work. Minimums on MATA (not including inside the carbarn) are 50 foot centerline radius.

Someone I know has tested new cars on the MATA line when overhang and freeboard clearances were uncertain and the clearance was a few inches.

[CDallas]

Yes Yes Yes please put the modern streetcars on McKinney it is time to move into the future and make this a true transportation option for people moving around Uptown and connecting to downtown and not just for tourist.

[lakewoodhobo]

Yes Yes Yes please put the modern streetcars on McKinney it is time to move into the future and make this a true transportation option for people moving around Uptown and connecting to downtown and not just for tourist.

I think once people see the modern streetcars downtown, they will eventually want them on McKinney. The problem then becomes what to do with the vintage streetcars. Keep them in service, use them in new corridors like Knox-Henderson or Lakewood? I think in the future, they will just need to retire and Fair Park would be an amazing place for a streetcar museum.

[CDallas]

I agree. I think if we could offer a true option of living in Downtown / Uptown / Deep Ellum and not having to own a car we would see the entire downtown area change. It would be unique to the entire metroplex that other surrounding areas would have a hard time duplicating.

[dfwcre8tive]

McKinney Avenue trolley gets $4.9 million boost
11:48 PM CDT on Thursday, July 8, 2010
By MICHAEL A. LINDENBERGER / The Dallas Morning News
mlindenberger@dallasnews.com
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/070810dnmettranspofunds.11ca3317b.html

...

Momentum

The grant for the McKinney Avenue trolley will be matched by $5 million from the North Central Texas Council of Governments. Together with improvements already planned, the upgrades could significantly enhance the usefulness of the trolley line.

Right now, the M Line's cars are a century or more old and travel back and forth along a single line. Ridership is growing rapidly, but the impact on downtown transportation is small.

Last year, the trolleys provided 309,000 rides, about 850 rides per day, according to Phil Cobb, president of the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority.

But that could change with the changes now set in motion, Cobb said. The new downtown loop would allow the use of much faster rail cars. Cobb said those cars -- all-steel, and built in the 1950s -- have already been acquired. They will have higher top speeds and start and stop much more quickly.

...

[Haretip]

And there's your loop for the Toronto streetcars as seen somewhere in here and on Unfair Park in the last week or so. The only places the Toronto cars would have trouble loading is along Cole Avenue where some genius ran the rails on the left side lane.

[CDallas]

Do you enter from the curb like modern streetcars or walk up stairs?

[lakewoodhobo]

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/070810dnmettranspofunds.11ca3317b.html

From the above article:



Fort Worth officials said they could decline the grant because they now are studying whether a streetcar system is feasible at this time.


Is this for real? I thought they would suspend the study and go ahead with the starter system. If not, I'm sure Dallas would love to have the money.

[CDallas]

That would be hilarious. Fort Worth declines and Dallas gets an even bigger system. Why are the other cities in Texas not jumping on transit? Imagine Dallas today as a city without light rail, I probably would have already moved.

[quietthings]

Could Dallas take the money if Fort Worth declined it?

[Haretip]

One council member does not speak for the entire council. So far as I can tell, these comments come from Jungus Jordan. I will campaign vigorously for his opponent in the next election should his wishes come to pass. My council member supports the plan. I think y'all can stop licking your chops at getting that money. Your project got funded. If more money becomes available, I would think it would go to one of the other project applicants who did not get a grant.

[CTroyMathis]

Didn't notice if this follow-up to the design contest for a few stops was put up:
One of the winners (http://www.oglesbygreene.com/projectsheets.htm) appears to be from the same group that did some downtown stations.
http://www.trolleycompfaq.blogspot.com/
Tx Arch Mag page 14: http://issuu.com/taartdir/docs/03.04.10

[incrediculous]

I think once people see the modern streetcars downtown, they will eventually want them on McKinney. The problem then becomes what to do with the vintage streetcars. Keep them in service, use them in new corridors like Knox-Henderson or Lakewood? I think in the future, they will just need to retire and Fair Park would be an amazing place for a streetcar museum.

Fair Park is big enough for its own streetcar system.

[electricron]

I'm not so sure new modern streetcars will ever arrive on McKinney Ave. First, we all know there will be fares to ride the new modern streetcars, the rides are free on the vintage MATA streetcars. I'm not so sure paying to ride new streetcars is an improvement. Second, the old rails on McKinney Ave. are not strong enough to carry the new modern streetcars. New rails built today are at least 115 pounds per yard, most of the old rails on McKinney Ave. are 90 pounds per yard. Third, the way the catenary wires are hung are different. MATA old trolleys use trolley poles while modern streetcars use pantographs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_pole
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantograph_(rail)

To run new modern streetcars on McKinney Ave., it will require major changes and reconstruction of the rails and catenary wires. It's easy to engineer accommodating both old and new streetcars on new sections of tracks, but difficult to upgrade on older sections of tracks, short of redesigning and rebuildiing most of the older sections of tracks.

Besides, MATA would lose most of its charm if they allowed new modern streetcars on McKinney Ave.

[mjblazin]

I agree. I think if we could offer a true option of living in Downtown / Uptown / Deep Ellum and not having to own a car we would see the entire downtown area change. It would be unique to the entire metroplex that other surrounding areas would have a hard time duplicating.

It's not going to be that big a change. Between Bus 21 and Bus 39, we already have numerous options to travel McKinney and link to to light rail. They are as fast or faster than the old or new street cars and run more often.

[CDallas]

Bus does not equal light rail or streetcar never will.

[mjblazin]

People that won't ride a bus won't ride a streetcar in lieu of driving, at least over a relatively short distance like McKinney/Downtown. They might prefer the streetcar over a bus, but they won't modify the behavior that has them driving. It's different when comparing LR to a long distance bus line (stops at traffic signs/lights, caught in traffic congestion). Streetcars on McKinney will have no advantages to the buses. If someone else is paying (in this case it looks like Uncle Sam), then whatever. Just don't expect any big change is rider usage.

[sdub]

Tourists and visitors will not get on transit buses. They have no confidence that they can get back to where they started. Small part of the ridership, but important to transit-oriented development, I think.

[cmacemm]

Tourists and visitors will not get on transit buses. They have no confidence that they can get back to where they started. Small part of the ridership, but important to transit-oriented development, I think.
I've found Dallas bus routes to be a little harder to map out because we are not on a grid pattern. I've never had trouble getting places in Chicago and NYC by bus because I can take one bus way down to the intersecting street

[CDallas]

All you have to do to see how the modern streetcars would work in Uptown is to visit the Pearl district in Portland where the area and population density is very similar. The streetcars are always packed and moving people throughout the district. The reason it works is that it is permanent and everyone knows it will take them to and right back.

[electricron]

All you have to do to see how the modern streetcars would work in Uptown is to visit the Pearl district in Portland where the area and population density is very similar. The streetcars are always packed and moving people throughout the district. The reason it works is that it is permanent and everyone knows it will take them to and right back.

Look at what Portland did to run modern streetcars on Columbus Street:
http://www.walkerevanseffect.com/blog/the-columbus-streetcar-construction-impact-memo/
They installed 115 pound per yard rail too.

Look at what MARTA did to run historic trolleys on McKinney Ave.
http://www.mata.org/images/startup/track-000.jpg

During the 80's, there was a movement to restore streetcar service in Dallas's Uptown neighborhood after some of the original rails were uncovered on McKinney Avenue. New rails were first laid in September 1988 near Hall Street. The initial infrastructure would be in place in the summer of 1989. In 1995, the agency had to fix subsidence in Cole Avenue causing a dip in the tracks between Hall and Bowen Streets. About 200 feet of track was replaced.
The first expansion of the system opened in 2002. Both DART and MATA desired the streetcar to meet up with DART's Cityplace subway station a few blocks from the route. The first new track for the Cityplace extension was laid on Cole Avenue south of Blackburn in June 2001. In the summer of 2002 while the tracks were being laid, construction crews unearthed history as old center-of-the-street rail from Dallas Railway and Terminal tracks were discovered.

So much of the track is original, and not 115 pounds per yard in weight.

Another possible obstacle to running new, modern streetcars on McKinney Avenue is MATA grand-fathering of today's transit regulations, since it operates as a historic museum. New, modern streetcars on McKinney Avenue would have to meet all the transit regulations, and that wouldn't necessarily be cheap. I would think that would make mixed operations (both historic and modern) at the same time impossible. Some sort of temporal and physical separation would be required, in which historic trolleys operate separately from modern streetcars. I'm not sure that's what MATA wants....

[CDallas]

I have to admit first of all that I am not an avowed preservationist. I do not have any emotional or sentimental attachment to the current antique streetcar system on Mckinney and am only interested in modernizing our urban core and creating an environment where it is very feasible to move around the core without a personal vehicle. Maybe once we get these new systems up and running and people understand that you enter curb level through wide entrys and can get on and off with ease and the speed of the car and its ability to keep up with the cars on the street the public will eventually desire that for McKinnney. I understand this is probably many years into the future but I feel strongly we should begin the push now so that we can build a cohesive system for the entire urban core.

[Haretip]

So much of the track is original, and not 115 pounds per yard in weight.

Another possible obstacle to running new, modern streetcars on McKinney Avenue is MATA grand-fathering of today's transit regulations, since it operates as a historic museum. New, modern streetcars on McKinney Avenue would have to meet all the transit regulations, and that wouldn't necessarily be cheap. I would think that would make mixed operations (both historic andat the same time impossible. Some sort of temporal and physical separation would be required, in which historic trolleys operate separately from modern streetcars. I'm not sure that's what MATA wants.... modern)

Swing and a miss. You really shouldn't conjecture about things you do not know about.

There is no reason modern cars could not run on McKinney Avenue if the clearances work. Period.

[dfwcre8tive]

Dallas hopes to get more commuters on board with streetcar upgrades
11:47 PM CDT on Thursday, July 22, 2010
By DAVID FLICK / The Dallas Morning News
dflick@dallasnews.com
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/072310dnmetstreetcars.435c53a.html

Within three years, the McKinney Avenue trolley will have a longer route, faster cars and, its backers believe, a new direction.

"There has been a definite shift in our mission," said Phil Cobb, president of the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. "We're not just a little Uptown tourist attraction anymore."

A $4.9 million federal grant awarded earlier this month will allow MATA to extend tracks down Olive Street to within walking distance of DART's Pearl Street commuter rail station, then loop around the Arts District to the current end-of-the-line stop on St. Paul Street.

Plans call for completion of the extension and loop by late 2012 or early 2013.

Although the resulting 5.1 miles of track will continue to cater to tourists, MATA officials want to rebrand their streetcar system as something more than a nostalgic novelty.

Keith Manoy, senior program manager in the city of Dallas' transportation office, said city planning officials are still thinking through the long-range implications of the new route, but the goal is clear.

"The hope is that MATA will become integrated into a downtown rail system," he said.

...

The rides will continue to be free, at least for now. Dallas Area Rapid Transit has subsidized MATA since 2002 with the understanding that it not charge a fare, but Cobb would eventually like to revisit the issue.

"You look at the number of riders and think of $1 or even 50 cents per ride and how much money that would bring in. It's not going to happen this year or next year, but it's worth thinking about," he said.

In the meantime, Cobb said, MATA must make itself more attractive to commuters and to neighborhood residents running errands, who – unlike vacationers – have workday schedules to keep.

"We'll have to be more transit-oriented," Cobb said. "We'll have to be faster, we'll have to be cleaner, we'll have to run on schedule and we'll have to add more cars."

Two all-steel cars purchased for $4,500 apiece from Toronto 15 years ago are sitting in a DART facility awaiting refurbishing. A third purchased from a museum in Ohio is in a rail yard in Chicago. A fourth, donated by a local family, is currently undergoing rehab at the MATA barn on Bowen Street.

Plans call for the steel cars to be phased into the current fleet beginning next spring. While the cars are not new, they are larger and more workmanlike than the smaller, quainter wooden trolleys now in use. The smallest and oldest of the trolleys – named "Rosie" – will be retired.

When added to the current fleet, they will permit MATA to operate more frequently during rush hour.

...

[Haretip]

Wow. Retire Rosie. That's something. I would suppose he means retire from revenue service.

I have long advocated modernization of the fleet. Sometimes to deaf ears. But my prognostication of losing contol of their tracks to a DART controlled system seems on the verge of happening. Change or die.