MATA: M-Line Streetcar

[lakewoodhobo]

Since all the money in the known universe that Dallas could possibly scrape together until 2030 is already allocated, the boy or girl that would likely lead such a project is sitting in a high school trig class. Don't hold your breath.

DART has its money allocated through 2030, but it's the city that will fund the streetcars (DART will only operate them).

Since this is a MATA thread, does anyone know if the downtown expansion is still including a downtown car barn at the northwest corner of Olive and San Jacinto? That's what Wikipedia says, anyway.

I think MATA is a gem, and it should be expanded to the Turtle Creek area and through Cedar Springs (and north all the way to Knox). It'll never be a "real" transportation system like the streetcars planned for downtown, but it could stimulate and sustain development until the downtown streetcars can expand through Uptown.

[Haretip]

Following the failure of the stillborn Lake Shore Electric streetcar museum in Cleveland, McKinney Avenue Transit Authority recently purchased former Dallas Railway & Terminal PCC Streetcar No. 612 from the National Capitol Trolley Museum. The car was used in Boston by the Metropolitan Transit Authority as No. 3334 from 1959 until 1964. The car will be stored for the time being at the Illinois Railway Museum outside of Chicago.

If you're thinking this was a complicated sale, you're correct. 14 museums, including Fort Worth's North Texas Historic Transportation, cooperated to absorb over 20 pieces of electric railroad equipment and tons of spare parts in a very short period of time. MATA initially passed on the car, but was able to purchase it from NCTM in the wave of secondary sales. NCTM was required to take the Dallas car from Cleveland in order to get the cars they really wanted and I suppose they made MATA a good deal. Other museums have offered cars that were not relevant to their collection or to make space and raise money to accomodate newly acquired equipment, so if you're in the market for a streetcar or interurban, there are deals to be had.

Background Info (Begins on Page 9) (http://www.heritagetrolley.com/images/PCCBrochure.pdf)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3325/3210979785_2ccf9fea8b.jpg

http://images.nycsubway.org/i23000/img_23845.jpg

[dfwcre8tive]

Thanks for sharing that. Were the other ex-Dallas PCC cars also sold or are they owned by a different organization?

It's nice to see some of the old Dallas streetcars returning to local ownership. Is there any news about MATA's expansion? Are they still planning to build a new car barn at Olive/Ross as part of their expansion into downtown? They definitely need more space for all the streetcars they are acquiring!

[Speedbump Joey]

This is great news!

[electricron]

Getting one is great news. Getting all SIX would have been much better.....

1. Six ex-Dallas, later Boston MBTA, double-end cars. These cars are from an order of 25 built by
Pullman-Standard in 1945. After rail service in Dallas ended in January, l956, the cars were stored until
sold to Boston in two groups in l958 and l959. They were operated in Boston until about 1980. They are
Westinghouse-equipped, and, as double-ended cars, they are particularly versatile. Though the cars have
had many years of hard service, they spent much less time operating in salt-treated city streets than did
PCC cars of comparable vintage from Philadelphia and Toronto that have been rehabbed for service in
other cities. Before 1959 these cars were in snow-free Dallas. After coming to Boston, they spent the
majority of their time running on the Mattapan-Ashmont line, which has no street running and hence
limited exposure to salt.
Our preference is to sell this group of cars as a fleet.
Of the six cars, one is in essentially operating condition as last operated in revenue service. Our intention
is to bold this car unless the entire fleet is purchased.
Two others are in essentially complete states, and were awaiting heavy mechanical overhauls when the
decision was made to discontinue the operation of Dallas cars, at which time we purchased them.
Another was acquired from a defunct museum and has some fire damage, and requires somewhat more
body and interior appointment outfitting than the above cars.
The last two were converted for light work service to carry tools and equipment to LRV derailment sites. Their interiors are devoid of passenger appointments and large doors have been cut into their bodies where
the car bodies were designed for location of center passenger doors. Thus, the cars are not distorted, and
offer opportunities for wheelchair access. Both are in good condition, and one has been mechanically
overhauled not too long prior to being replaced in work car service.
The cars available are Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority fleet numbers 3327, 3328, 3331,
3338, 3343 and 3344.

Did MARTA get the sole one that's operable as is? I don't think so, why is it going to be stored near Chicago?
Additionally, double ended cab cars is what MARTA needs to use on their streetcar line since there are no turn-back loops.

[Haretip]

The other cars are still owned by the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunport, Maine and are still available for sale to my knowledge. Optimally, they would be modernized for AC and ADA accessibility by Brookville like they did for the similar SEPTA streetcars. Oak Cliff at one time had an agreement to purchase them, but OCTA caught Portland fever and dropped the idea.

MATA did not buy any of the cars shown in the brochure, that was just for background information on how the cars got to Boston.

The car that the McKinney Avenue Transit Authority purchased is not in running condition and needs restoration work. It is in relatively good condition as all of the cars have some degree of corrosion from years of service in Boston's salted streets. It will be stored at IRM for the time being to take advantage of cheap back-shipping by Silk Road Transport (http://silkroadtrans.com/) and if you crammed one more car into the MATA carban, one would fall out the back door into the cemetery.

Read carefully and understand that I am talking about the acquisition of one (1) PCC streetcar. The fleet brochure was strictly for background data.

The First Baptist Church expansion plans have killed the plans for the carbarn at San Jacinto and St. Paul. I am unaware of an alternate location at this time. I understand engineering for the extension into downtown is wrapping up and groundbreaking should mobilize early next year. Should be dirt flying soon.

[electricron]

I understood MATA had only bought one.
I just wished they had bought six.

It's still great news.

[lakewoodhobo]

The First Baptist Church expansion plans have killed the plans for the carbarn at San Jacinto and St. Paul. I am unaware of an alternate location at this time. I understand engineering for the extension into downtown is wrapping up and groundbreaking should mobilize early next year. Should be dirt flying soon.

Thanks for all this info, but are you sure the carbarn was supposed to go on this corner? My understanding was it would go on San Jacinto and Olive, where there's a parking lot on the NW corner.

[dfwcre8tive]

Thanks for all this info, but are you sure the carbarn was supposed to go on this corner? My understanding was it would go on San Jacinto and Olive, where there's a parking lot on the NW corner.

That's what I thought, too.

[Haretip]

Electricron, I was offering the quantity comment at DFWcre8tive.

The original proposed location for the downtown carbarn was the portion of San Jacinto right-of-way that stubbed into St. Paul in front of the parking lot formerly known as the Cotton Exchange Building. This portion of the r.o.w was orphaned when the s-curve was put in to make San Jacinto a through street. If they move it to San Jacinto and Olive, that is news to me.

[Haretip]

Wow. I just saw the rebuilt/modified new trucks for 754 at the MATA carbarn today. They look great! That car will be the best in the fleet when it is rolled out. Resilient wheels mean the end of squealing when it goes around corners and a smoother ride for the passengers. It will be a heck of a car and still look like an original Dallas car. (For pics of 754 see post in this thread from 6/22/09)

Construction on downtown extension still supposedly starting in April barring any setbacks.

[CDallas]

I am happy to see that we are discussing and planning to move forward with an extended streetcar system for the city of Dallas urban core but I just dont see the the long term use of Antique cars and think we should move to use the modern cars that load at curb level with handicap access etc. We need this to move people around quickly and efficiently not just be a rolling museum.

[warlock55]

The extension mentioned is just in regards to MATA. A new downtown streetcar system (with planned future extensions to other areas of Dallas) is being designed that will use modern streetcars. More info here:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3261

[citizen]

I am happy to see that we are discussing and planning to move forward with an extended streetcar system for the city of Dallas urban core but I just dont see the the long term use of Antique cars and think we should move to use the modern cars that load at curb level with handicap access etc. We need this to move people around quickly and efficiently not just be a rolling museum.

I'm all for adding streetcars to our cities transportation system and believe that we should do it as fast as possible. With respect to Uptown the trolleys are much much more than a way of moving people around so perhaps, at worst case, a mix of streetcars and trolleys in Uptown.

[palchik]

Streetcars and trolleys are the same thing...the different names were simply used in different parts of the country. In the South (including Dallas), they were called streetcars back when they were a regular part of every-day life.

[Haretip]

So, do we take the tracks from MATA and put DART streetcars on it or force them to modernize or what?

[citizen]

^
^

Okay - how about "historic trolleys" - and I believe that it may be possible to have modern streetcars (not trains) that could share the MATA tracks and power supply - I could be crazy; wouldn't be the first time.

[CDallas]

The Type of streetcars I am referring are the ones used in Portland Oregon. I beleive these can run on the same tracks as the historic cars. The biggest problem is the historic cars sit up high and you have to enter off the street and walk up steps where as these you just walk off the curb right on to the car and it moves much quicker and smoother and more people.

[Haretip]

So we move the tracks from the middle of the street to the curb and then make MATA buy new cars or do we kick them off the tracks and let DART run it?

[JSteffen]

So we move the tracks from the middle of the street to the curb and then make MATA buy new cars or do we kick them off the tracks and let DART run it?
Maybe let dart absorb MATA as a wing of sorts, with additional staff. Also, Dart could buy the tracks for a nominal fee, leaving Mata with a bit of money for upkeep of the cars. Then Dart could lease back the tracks free of charge to Mata for 1,000 years. Then with control of the tracks and maintaining them, Dart and Mata could theoretically coincide. ?? Maybe?

[Haretip]

Wow, MATA's come a long way. Almost closed completely in the winter of 1993 for lack of support. Working for years with little money, volunteer labor and derided as a bunch of crazies playing in the street. The concept is proven. People will ride transit. Now get your shit out of the way. Hmm.. The public is fickle.

Oh, look, a certificate on my desk for 19 years of volunteer service from McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. I think I was on paid staff for about a year. Most of the time was unpaid, long, hard, dirty hours. Let DART absorb MATA? You must have put that in there to get a laugh out of me.

Can't say I didn't see the attitude coming though. I have been telling the Chief Operating Office of MATA for years to grab the bull by the horns and embrace modern equipment. MATA should be the operating subcontractor to DART for the downtown streetcar circulator.

I would suggest putting off repainting the cars DART yellow just yet. You seem to not hear what I am saying regarding the improved new car with dynamic braking, chopper controls, resilient wheels, air conditioning and modern motors. It is a major change in the equipment and you would do well to give it a chance. If you want stuff that looks like vacuum cleaners, you can go to Portland. As for moving the tracks to the curbside, I think the businesses along McKinney would throw a fit if you shut down McKinney Avenue again for construction so soon after the whole street was redone.

[NThomas]

Wow, MATA's come a long way. Almost closed completely in the winter of 1993 for lack of support. Working for years with little money, volunteer labor and derided as a bunch of crazies playing in the street. The concept is proven. People will ride transit. Now get your shit out of the way. Hmm.. The public is fickle.

Oh, look, a certificate on my desk for 19 years of volunteer service from McKinney Avenue Transit Authority. I think I was on paid staff for about a year. Most of the time was unpaid, long, hard, dirty hours. Let DART absorb MATA? You must have put that in there to get a laugh out of me.

Can't say I didn't see the attitude coming though. I have been telling the Chief Operating Office of MATA for years to grab the bull by the horns and embrace modern equipment. MATA should be the operating subcontractor to DART for the downtown streetcar circulator.

I would suggest putting off repainting the cars DART yellow just yet. You seem to not hear what I am saying regarding the improved new car with dynamic braking, chopper controls, resilient wheels, air conditioning and modern motors. It is a major change in the equipment and you would do well to give it a chance. If you want stuff that looks like vacuum cleaners, you can go to Portland. As for moving the tracks to the curbside, I think the businesses along McKinney would throw a fit if you shut down McKinney Avenue again for construction so soon after the whole street was redone.
Why not just let MATA do its thing where it is and DART could run "modern streetcars" up Cedar Springs and reconfigure the street for two way traffic from Field towards Oak Lawn.

[CDallas]

I apologize if I offend the MATA group as I can understand the efforts put in all of these years to make it work and the pride in restoring the cars. I just think we have to begin to think of Dallas as a larger modern city and how it can work and lead others into the future like it used to do. I think there is a way to have both. It is too bad they could not have planned it with the cars along the side of the street instead of the middle so they stops could be more efficient. I also understand when this was started almost all of the area between downtown and Highland Park did not exist as a dense urban area but it is and will continue to get denser and the need to move people quickly and efficiently will become only greater. I admit I am a modernist and would prefer the architecture and infrastructure to allign with that style but I also respect the efforts and energy that Preservationist bring to a city.

[msutton]

There are plenty of cities operating older cars in efficient public transportation systems. Modern street cars can and should certainly be a part of the picture in Dallas, but I think regardless of your "modernist" tendencies, preserving what little pockets of history Dallas has yet to bulldoze is crucial to facilitating the development of a rich character and personality.

[Haretip]

MATA's new old car arrives at IRM (http://hickscarworks.blogspot.com/2009/12/nicks-used-car-lot.html)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_YGfyS0_koOE/SylgiTk2MLI/AAAAAAAAD5I/riZT9asgfNo/s1600/IRM%2B20091216%2B002.jpg

[electricron]

Am I seeing it right, looks like more than half the window panes are missing?

[lakewoodhobo]

Can't wait to see this car in service. How long will it take to restore?

[electricron]

Can't wait to see this car in service. How long will it take to restore?

Since it has a double cab, it's the one PCC car MATA owns than can actually be use today. I don't understand why they wish to store it near Chicago? MATA should be storing single cab cars in far away places, and keeping their double cab cars closer.

[Haretip]

I'll forward that to the Chief Operating Officer. I'm sure he'll want to contact you about other helpful ideas you have for their system.

[Haretip]

Groundbreaking for downtown extension tentatively set for mid-April.

Maybe the extension is thread-worthy once it gets underway?

[CTroyMathis]

Groundbreaking for downtown extension tentatively set for mid-April.

Maybe the extension is thread-worthy once it gets underway?

Absolutely. In technicolor even. . .

[Speedbump Joey]

Absolutely. In technicolor even. . .

OMGOMGOMG! It's going to happen!?!

[Haretip]

Extra ritalin in someone's desert..

CTroy, that was an inner voice question. But I do like your idea for technicolor.

The expansion start date was already posted on the last page as May but I was told today April (either 10th or 15th I think). I will confirm the date this weekend if I am in town.

[Speedbump Joey]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zR-KPmacYSQ&feature=sub

[Haretip]

Eh, some holdup on funds or paperwork or something. I'm hearing June now.

[NTexUnited]

Eh, some holdup on funds or paperwork or something. I'm hearing June now.

Well, it's June. Any word? I'd love to see some jackhammers at work along the extension!

I believe that, in light of DART's halting of light rail projects, a concentrated effort to build streetcars as capillaries connecting DART rail to residential centers and shopping destinations will beautify this city in a way that dilapidated, stinky buses cannot. I understand that MATA is a "heritage" system that is mostly for play and not commuting, but, IMHO, it had a great deal to do with the revitalization of uptown. A modern streetcar would do even more for places such as Oak Cliff, Greenville, DT, Preston/Oak lawn, Fair Park etc.

[Haretip]

I dunno nothing. Sign still says Summer 2010. If I hear anything more definitive I'll post.

[sdub]

I love the old restored cars and look forward to the new-old one hitting the tracks. However, I tried to take the MATA from downtown up to the West Village for an event at the Magnolia last week and it was torture. 10 minutes behind "schedule" before it made it to the turn-around and almost 20 minutes behind at Lemmon. Why do they publish a schedule they know they can't keep? I guess what I imagine someday is the MATA loop interconnected with a downtown circulator and an Oak Cliff line, all of them running modern equipment that can keep up with traffic during the rush hours and lunch, historic equipment rumbling along later in the evenings and weekends.

[Haretip]

What makes you think they can't keep it, is it always late? I've operated the current route numerous times and the excess time built into the route makes me bored at the holdover points. The only times I have not made the schedule is when there is too much automobile congestion along McKinney in the Crescent/Ritz Carlton area. A modern car does not have some superpower where it can break through that congestion any quicker.

[RobertB]

What makes you think they can't keep it, is it always late? I've operated the current route numerous times and the excess time built into the route makes me bored at the holdover points. The only times I have not made the schedule is when there is too much automobile congestion along McKinney in the Crescent/Ritz Carlton area. A modern car does not have some superpower where it can break through that congestion any quicker.
Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, I will point out one thing that an automobile has that a streetcar doesn't: a steering wheel. /me ducks

[NThomas]

What makes you think they can't keep it, is it always late? I've operated the current route numerous times and the excess time built into the route makes me bored at the holdover points. The only times I have not made the schedule is when there is too much automobile congestion along McKinney in the Crescent/Ritz Carlton area. A modern car does not have some superpower where it can break through that congestion any quicker.
What if MATA ran in the outside lanes instead of the inner lanes? I can't imagine the right turn traffic takes as long as the left turn traffic.

The only real solution is to have protected turn arrows for McKinney at Pearl and Maple.

[Haretip]

Playing Devil's Advocate for a moment, I will point out one thing that an automobile has that a streetcar doesn't: a steering wheel. /me ducks

You got me. My bad. I am so deep in this stuff that I mean streetcar when I say car.

A modern STREETcar does not have some superpower.....

/me throws shoe

[Haretip]

The only real solution is to have protected turn arrows for McKinney at Pearl and Maple.

I think I've been saying that for at least a decade and a half.

[Haretip]

Well, it's June. Any word? I'd love to see some jackhammers at work along the extension!

OK, I called my source and he is saying July. Probably sometime after the 4th. What you weren't expecting is that two projects will begin within a short time period of each other that will extend the line on both ends. Mull on that.

[LongonBigD]

both ends?

Could this have something to do with the posting in the DMN about a public meeting to discuss the formation of a Knox Street PID? They only mentioned a budget of $1.7MM and spoke of improved lighting and streetcape for the area. I would classify a MATA extension as improved "streetscape."

[sdub]

What makes you think they can't keep it, is it always late? I've operated the current route numerous times and the excess time built into the route makes me bored at the holdover points. The only times I have not made the schedule is when there is too much automobile congestion along McKinney in the Crescent/Ritz Carlton area. A modern car does not have some superpower where it can break through that congestion any quicker.

I don't know if it is always late. My sample size is admittedly miniscule. My experience is that the streetcar goes much, much slower than traffic. I think it is because the maximum speed seems to be about 15 mph and it takes 15 to 20 seconds to get there. You get caught behind multiple lights, etc. My assumption was that modern equipment can accelerate and travel at roughly the same speed as a car. The only "delays" would be in stopping to pick up and drop off. I just want it to go a little slower than traffic instead of a lot. Is that more than streetcars of any variety can deliver?

[Haretip]

both ends?

Could this have something to do with the posting in the DMN about a public meeting to discuss the formation of a Knox Street PID?

Turntable installation and improvement of area around DART station. Actually not an extension now that I think about it since the track won't be longer.

If the turntable is installed at Citiplace and the downtown extension has a turnaround, they will finally be able to use the single-ended Toronto PCCs currently in storage at DART.

[RobertB]

Turntable installation and improvement of area around DART station. Actually not an extension now that I think about it since the track won't be longer.

If the turntable is installed at Citiplace and the downtown extension has a turnaround, they will finally be able to use the single-ended Toronto PCCs currently in storage at DART.
I saw those streetcars when I took the Green Line Special through the maintenance yard -- wondered what they were doing there. But where will you put them when they're able to run on the MATA line? Isn't the car barn full?

[LongonBigD]

Turntable installation and improvement of area around DART station. Actually not an extension now that I think about it since the track won't be longer.

If the turntable is installed at Citiplace and the downtown extension has a turnaround, they will finally be able to use the single-ended Toronto PCCs currently in storage at DART.

Well, that's not the news I was hoping for, but still good news. That would be a welcome improvement. It is awkward there where the MATA stops getting to the DART entrance - not even a sidewalk, you have to walk in the street and dodge the traffic if the ground is wet.

[R1070]

They really need the streetcar line to go thru the Knox Henderson area and they also need to open the Dart subway station at Knox. If I were a business owner in KH, I would be pushing for this stuff to be done.