Should DART be 24/7?

[F4shionablecHa0s]

For you transit gurus, I was wondering why DART doesn't operate 24/7 like New York. I know it would cost some money, but surely they could run one train an hour or something like that for not all that much money.

For the other transit systems around the world that don't run 24/7, it's frequently because parts of the system were built long ago and they never thought to dig two tunnels, making it impossible to reroute the trains to another track so maintenence can be done. Since DART is mostly above ground, trains can switch sides of the track with no difficulty at all. Using only one side of the track wouldn't really be a problem. The only problem area would be the tunnel, but with greatly reduced service at night it would be possible to use only one side.

Even if they couldn't keep the trains running, I fail to see why it would be hard to start a nightbus system. This is what they do in London to compensate with having to close the underground. Routes that run 24/7 could have an N put after their number, making it very easy to know where to go if you miss the last train.

There's been several times I've nearly fallen down an escalator or run over by a car when running for the last train. I think this would be a big step in moving Dallas into that 24/7 world city realm that city hall has been lusting after for all these years.

Thoughts? Ideas? I think this is especially important with service coming to Deep Ellum and Uptown (hopefully soon). I know that if the shut off time continues to be midnight, I'll still be driving when I go out.

[bloodandpopcorn]

DART is in too much financial trouble, and not enough people would ride the train between 12:30 and, what, 5:00 am (I think thats when the trains don't run?) to justify the cost. I agree that it would be nice, but even in NYC not all the trains run 24/7. Most don't, I believe. It would be nice, once the next extentions are done, to at least have 24/7 service in downtown, maybe extended up to mockingbird, but DART probably just doesn't have the money or manpower for it right now.

So, while I agree with you, I understand why they don't do it right now. Maybe extending the hours on the Deep Ellum route would be good. Last train departs at 2 or 2:30, then a two hour break or something. It's a difficult situation.

[Foucault]

I think DART should from midnight until 2:30 have perhaps two express lines. For example, DFW-Las Colinas-Univ. of Dallas-Love Field-Medical Center-(Arena)-DT-Deep Ellum-Baylor-(Fair Park[This could become a regular express stop depending on what happens]), and Addison Circle-Walnut Hill-Park-Mockingbird-Knox/Henderson-CityPlace-DT-(Convention Center)-Cedars-VA Medical Center. These could be on a separate map in the stations and the trains could just be one car running every 15 minutes (7.5 in DT). From 2:30 to 5:00, trains could run just DFW-Love-Victory-Akard-CityPlace/(Fair Park during the fair) every 15 minutes (and this route could be kept during the day). They could have invisible glow-in-the-dark lacquer over the yellow and for the lettering. They would, of course, still be run during the day to 'charge' the flourescent paint, and the signs could say XPS DFW or something like that (black colour, perhaps?). That said, there is at least one problem other than finance--homelessness. The trains could become mobile homes. The logistics would be difficult, and there are a lot of problems, but I think it's the best solution.

[psukhu]

People will always choose "cheaper and faster"

The freeways are empty at 2 am relative to rush hour. You can hop in your car and go from Downtown Dallas to any suburb in about 15 minutes. That car trip won't require you to walk or wait on a train. Most people would opt to drive. The trains would be empty. Running the LRTs would not justified.

In NYC or London it is also faster to drive at 2am The main difference is that most people don't have cars. So the choices for most people are a $15 taxi ride or train ride that is probably free because they already have an unlimited ride pass.

After an evening out on the town in NYC, my friends an I would sometimes opt to take a taxi over the train. Sometimes you can wait up to 45 minutes for a train to come at 2 am in NYC. We figured the fare isn't that bad if we split the cost of the taxi among three people. It was worth it for us to not have to wait on the train.

[tamtagon]

I wonder if DART could move freight at night. Maybe crazy. Member cities could mandate all regularly scheduled deliveries to business near DART stations be made in the middle of the night. THis would reduce congestion during the day (even just a little) and allow a passenger car to run along the system 24/7. It could also help improve mid-day air quality.

[F4shionablecHa0s]

No one has meantioned the night bus option. I honestly don't think it would be all that hard to operate a few bus routes in between the park and rides or the rail stations 24 hours a day. And again, the normal routes could be preserved, only put an N or something after the number. It would be extremely easy for people to know what runs all the time.

Also, note that while driving would be faster, it's rapidly becoming a lot cheaper to take mass transit. 2 dollars worth of gas will not get you very far. For the same amount of money you can go clear across the city on DART.

As for the homeless, rotate the trains in use between the day and night. At a certain time, send each train back to the yard (ousting the homeless) and then take another train back into service. Or don't even switch trains. Or let the homeless people on. As long as they pay their fare, I suppose they have the right to ride the train as much as they want.

[warlock55]

I certainly wish DART had 24 hour service, although even running hourly would be a big financial drain. Limiting service to Friday and Saturday nights would probably be enough to cover the majority of the late night demand. It'd be great to be able to ride back from the West End or Deep Ellum those nights. No worries about drunk drivers, parking, or having your car broken into. I was at A-KON at the Adam's Mark until 2am last Sunday, and I would've loved to be able to ride to Plano because I was really tired. My sis and g/f and I rode the train down and back Friday and during the day Sunday and would've done it Saturday too if it had been running early Sunday morning.

btw, kudos to A-KON from moving their convention from the DFW Hyatt to downtown. Anything to bring some more life and money there is a plus. I hope the concessions in the Plaza of the Americas made money staying open late for us!

[aceplace]

btw, kudos to A-KON from moving their convention from the DFW Hyatt to downtown. Anything to bring some more life and money there is a plus. I hope the concessions in the Plaza of the Americas made money staying open late for us!
Hi, Warlock, exactly what is A-KON? I noticed a lot of people at the Adam's Mark, but I thought they were connected with the guitar festival...

[warlock55]

*L* I didn't know there was a guitar festival until I sat near a guy on the train Sunday and we asked each other about our respective badges.

A KON is the 3rd largest japanese animation convention in the U.S. with over 10,000 attendees over its three days. It's been held in the Dallas area for 15 years, but this is the first time that I know of that it's been held downtown. It'll be back at the Adam's Mark for at least one year more, and hopefully will stay after that too. :cool:

[bloodandpopcorn]

I was working at SWAFT at the convention center, representing the Asian Film Festival, and I took the train, and it was great to see all the A-Kon people milling about on the sidewalk outside. I hear that Do As Infitiy was there, too, as a band! I would have killed to be able to go, but I didn't discover that until too late. I sure hope it stays downtown, did it seem to get pretty good reception being down there? I think the Adam's Mark let them rent the facilities for free because so many rooms were booked, but I'm not sure about that.

A-kon, to which I've never been, really seems to be growing at an amazing pace... Do you think it will ever move up to #2 or #1? Though many of the people that (I assume) go to A-Kon aren't necessarily the people we want to court for tourism, most anime fans certainly are passionate and it could be a really great asset for DTD in the futures, especially if it grows.

[tamtagon]

A-kon, to which I've never been,

that's surprising, blood! is it not your deal?

[bloodandpopcorn]

I greatly dislike most anime... There's only a handful of the movies that I can stand. Haha, yes, it is strange... I just much prefer Japanese (and other asian) live action films.

[warlock55]

A-kon, to which I've never been, really seems to be growing at an amazing pace... Do you think it will ever move up to #2 or #1?
I think it has the potential. One of the big reasons the con moved was because it was getting way too cramped at the airport hotel. Now there's a lot more room to expand.


Though many of the people that (I assume) go to A-Kon aren't necessarily the people we want to court for tourism, most anime fans certainly are passionate and it could be a really great asset for DTD in the futures, especially if it grows.
*L* Ouch! Maybe if you tried thinking of them as a temporary flood of crazily-dressed street performers instead of tourists... :D

Anyway, it's people and money coming downtown, which can't be beat. And it's a free spectacle for everyone else in the vicinity at the time!

[gc]

Thread Title: "Should DART be 24/7?"

[warlock55]

I was working at SWAFT at the convention center, representing the Asian Film Festival, and I took the train, and it was great to see all the A-Kon people milling about on the sidewalk outside. I hear that Do As Infitiy was there, too, as a band! I would have killed to be able to go, but I didn't discover that until too late. I sure hope it stays downtown, did it seem to get pretty good reception being down there? I think the Adam's Mark let them rent the facilities for free because so many rooms were booked, but I'm not sure about that.

There were several J-Pop bands there. I can't think of which right now, because I didn't go see any of them. I caught a bit of one concert on a live feed in the main hall, and I do have to say they had one of the craziest floor shows I've ever seen. They were pretty weird. *G*

I think it got a great reception. I'm not sure about the convention center rental, but I could believe it based on the number of people that were there. Anime fans are definitely passionate, and it's a great convention so I'm sure it'll just be even bigger and better next year. Now that it's downtown it's great for me because I can combine my love of anime and my love of downtown revitalization! Mwuhuhahaha!

[Columbus Civil]

Thread Title: "Should DART be 24/7?"

I wonder what Bill Parcells thinks of A-kon ;)

[Mballar]

Houston seems to be moving in the direction of 24/7 operations. They have already passed Dallas on this issue.

Please see article below.

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/special/04/lightrail/2619256

Metro's last train now runs after last call on weekends
By RAD SALLEE
Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle
Take a tour: Explore Houston's new light rail system.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Downtown revelers looking for a safe ride home will be able to party about an hour later on weekends and still catch the late train.

At the request of Mayor Bill White and Councilwoman Carol Alvarado, the Metropolitan Transit Authority will start its last weekend light rail runs from the University of Houston-Downtown at 2:15 a.m. Saturdays and Sundays.

The 7.5-mile trip to the Fannin South Park & Ride lot takes about 30 minutes. Previously, the last runs began at 12:47 a.m. Saturday and 1:03 a.m. Sunday, Metro spokesman Ken Connaughton said.

"This should be a welcome addition to Houston's night life. It's another inducement for people to enjoy downtown's Main Event weekend party," Metro President and Chief Executive Officer Frank Wilson said in a statement.

Mark Sansoucy, general manager of the Mercury Room at 1008 Prairie, said the later hours mesh well with the state law barring the sale of alcoholic beverages after 2 a.m.

"A lot of people don't leave clubs until 2 a.m., and if you're one who wants to take the convenience of the train, you have to kind of cut your night early," he said. "You'd be surprised at the number of people who are still out then."

Sansoucy said the change "benefits downtown, and it just make us more of a city."

The trains will continue to start operating at 5:30 a.m. Saturday and Sunday. After a three-month trial period, he said, Metro will decide whether to continue late-night weekend service and whether to expand it to other nights.

[psukhu]

I don't think people think about it much unless there is a late game at the AAC.

I predict this will get attention once the Deep Ellum station is built.

[tamtagon]

I don't think people think about it much unless there is a late game at the AAC.

I predict this will get attention once the Deep Ellum station is built.

The Main Street nightlife scene might pick up enough to get people asking for late night trains before the Deep Ellum station is built, I hope.

[gc]

The Main Street nightlife scene might pick up enough to get people asking for late night trains before the Deep Ellum station is built, I hope.

I agree tamtagon, but DTD will need a few more mainstream establishments for that to happen. I doubt the trendy crowd that frequents Blue, Euphoria, Umlaut, etc will take DART. Just my opinion.

[drumguy8800]

speaking of Main Street.. that sub-Elm line is sounding better and better. I wish DART was a little more open with their plans.. then we could know exactly how they plan on making all this work.

[SpaceCityDood]

Well, IMO, if HOU can do it, DAL should do it, especially with their night life. Still, yeah, I'd wait for The DE station.

[psukhu]

I agree tamtagon, but DTD will need a few more mainstream establishments for that to happen. I doubt the trendy crowd that frequents Blue, Euphoria, Umlaut, etc will take DART. Just my opinion.

GC, I agree with that. These are higher end places that have dress codes. I doubt the patron is going to leave his 7 Series BMW at home to ride mass transit.

In fact, many people have cars that they only use when they go out. (It may be the family sports car, an exotic [like a Ferrari] or a classic car.)


Just take a look at the parking lots and you'll get an idea of the demographics.

[gc]

GC, I agree with that. These are higher end places that have dress codes. I doubt the patron is going to leave his 7 Series BMW at home to ride mass transit.

In fact, many people have cars that they only use when they go out. (It may be the family sports car, an exotic [like a Ferrari] or a classic car.)


Just take a look at the parking lots and you'll get an idea of the demographics.

LOL, I have a friend who used to take out his DAD's Ferrari every saturday night...

[CARTMAN]

I agree with everyone that DART should run 24/7, but remember Rome was not built in a day. It was take some time for DART to run some routes 24/7 even the buses. The Number 82 Westheimer bus in Houston has been running 24/7 for quite some time and that is because there was so much activity on Richmond and Westheimer. I predict in the next few years DART will start to operate at the very least a 24/7 bus route and maybe the last train at 2am like Houston. Also, remember Houston's urban core is very much larger than Dallas so it would make sense for them to have at least one route that would be late night.

Remember, Houston built its nightlife directly on Main. Street so Dallas's Main Street will probably be like that soon. AS the city grows so does the traffic so that will force a lot of people out of the car and on the train (rich and poor) here. Hey, at least more people in Dallas take the train than in Los Angeles (and thats coming from a native Angeleno) So we are years ahead of the 2nd largest city. :)

[dfwcre8tive]

Phoenix is now running their light rail until 3:15am on weekends. Maybe DART could do something similar to help with all the bar/nightclub crowds that are now coming downtown.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/traffic/lightrail/articles/2009/07/03/20090703railatnight0703.html

[LH_Newbie]

Are there any cities with 24x7 public transit? I don't remember Boston, London or Paris being 24x7... but my memory isn't that great. Considering the infancy of DART... I think that DART should focus on expanding it's footprint.

[NThomas]

I wouldn't mind it running even express routes after midnight. Think every other station.

[mjblazin]

As noted recently in Unfair Park "Nothing good happens after 2 AM." No one in city government is interested in a story that begins "I was walking out of a bar at 2 AM ..." Take a taxi.

[Mena]

I certainly wish DART had 24 hour service, although even running hourly would be a big financial drain. Limiting service to Friday and Saturday nights would probably be enough to cover the majority of the late night demand. It'd be great to be able to ride back from the West End or Deep Ellum those nights. No worries about drunk drivers, parking, or having your car broken into. I was at A-KON at the Adam's Mark until 2am last Sunday, and I would've loved to be able to ride to Plano because I was really tired. My sis and g/f and I rode the train down and back Friday and during the day Sunday and would've done it Saturday too if it had been running early Sunday morning.

btw, kudos to A-KON from moving their convention from the DFW Hyatt to downtown. Anything to bring some more life and money there is a plus. I hope the concessions in the Plaza of the Americas made money staying open late for us!


Totally agree. I enjoyed watching A-KON attendees walking around downtown. Ditto with FFA......noticeable jump in activity when they were here: large groups of members and families were in the West End area. We need more of this.

edit to add: I just realized I quoted an old post......even greater that they continue to have their convention downtown. :thumbsup:

[LH_Newbie]

I wouldn't mind it running even express routes after midnight. Think every other station.
That does nothing to control costs. It's just too expensive to run the system at these hours with incredibly low ridership, which is why no public transit system does it.

[darkblood]

[/B]

Totally agree. I enjoyed watching A-KON attendees walking around downtown. Ditto with FFA......noticeable jump in activity when they were here: large groups of members and families were in the West End area. We need more of this.

edit to add: I just realized I quoted an old post......even greater that they continue to have their convention downtown. :thumbsup:

This last A-KON I happened to be downtown for a completely different reason, saw the funny-dressed people and thought "Aw I missed A-KON again!" I didn't have time to attend the show.

Of course A-KON also happens the weekend after Scarborough Faire closes, so we're less likely to want to move much anyway, as that's "sacred saturday."

[Mena]

This last A-KON I happened to be downtown for a completely different reason, saw the funny-dressed people and thought "Aw I missed A-KON again!" I didn't have time to attend the show.

Of course A-KON also happens the weekend after Scarborough Faire closes, so we're less likely to want to move much anyway, as that's "sacred saturday."
Yeah....we took a few photos but they didn't turn out as well as I'd hoped. Bummer. I'll wait patiently for next year.

Tweaked in Photoshop.......but it's something...... :rolleyes:

http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll207/Luv2DanceTX/4955_1162152337411_1335921803_30429.jpg

[dfwcre8tive]

I guess they use the time between 12:30-5am for rail maintenance and inspections. Out of curiosity, would it add that much cost in operations to add one special events train at 1:30 and one train at 2:30am for each line? Or, perhaps an hourly night bus system that follows the rail routes and stops at each of the stations?

[electricron]

Start a petition, get hundreds of thousands of signers, then present it to DART's Board if you really want late night and early morning services. A large petition would "shock and awe" the Board. It's been my experience that it is always easier to start anti petitions rather than pro.

We can discuss and argue over 24/7 forever. The DART Board isn't going to do anything about it until faced with a huge petition.

[totheskies]

^^ Or a donor with at least $10 mil that says "I want you guys to run 24/7"... same effect.

In the case of Houston's METRO, that's probably the ONLY way it will ever happen here.

[saxman66]

Are there any cities with 24x7 public transit? I don't remember Boston, London or Paris being 24x7... but my memory isn't that great. Considering the infancy of DART... I think that DART should focus on expanding it's footprint.

New York City runs 24/7. I know for a fact Boston and Washington DC shuts down at night.

It would be nice if there were at least a 2 am last run on weekends to serve the bar crowd. I live in the burbs and would be nice to get home without getting in the car. Taxi for me would be over $50, probably $100.

[electricron]

New York City runs 24/7. I know for a fact Boston and Washington DC shuts down at night.
It would be nice if there were at least a 2 am last run on weekends to serve the bar crowd. I live in the burbs and would be nice to get home without getting in the car. Taxi for me would be over $50, probably $100.

It sure would be nice to avoid drunk drivers on the highways late at night. But I'm not so sure anyone wants to clean up the messes drunks will spew on the floors of the trains.

[Mballar]

not all trains in NYC run 24/7

[palchik]

It sure would be nice to avoid drunk drivers on the highways late at night. But I'm not so sure anyone wants to clean up the messes drunks will spew on the floors of the trains.

The problem with this idea is Dallas' land-use. Very few people live close enough to DART rail stations to use rail alone as an alternative to driving. So, once people arrive at their station after a night of drinking, most of them will still have get in their cars for the last leg of their trip, and at that point they will probably be both drunk and sleepy. Connecting bus service wouldn't be justified that late at night, because you wouldn't have the critical mass to support it. Taxis would have the same lack of critical mass problem, so serving outlying stations just wouldn't be worth their effort.

These are the types of problems that you get with low-density, sprawling land-use.

[Double Wide]

I say try 24/7 trains for a month or less and see how rider ship goes.

[electricron]

How about trying extending services just over the weekends before trying every night?

I'd like to add, DART has to go through a public notice protocols and meetings each time they significantly change services. That's expensive, and there's no guarantee they could return to existing services after a test period that may prove unsuccessful. To wit, there's no such thing as a test period in the laws DART must comply with.

It's easy for us in our rocking chairs to suggest DART should try this or that, do this or that, test this or that; but that's not allowed under the laws DART must operate under. Each significant change requires public meetings as if the changes were permanent.

[tamtagon]

Late night light rail service will make more sense when streetcars carry folks about the Central Business District, Uptown and maybe eventually Deep Ellum, Knox Henderson and Oaklawn.

[mjblazin]

Aren't night owl runs more likely geared toward late night employment than entertainment users? Chicago's Blue Line runs to O'Hare all night, but it's likely geared for employees there. A few bus lines are night owls and don't seem to run near entertainment areas.

I don't know what occupies dead last on the DART list of opportunities on which to spend scarce operating funds, but this one would have to be in the competition.

[tamtagon]

I don't know what occupies dead last on the DART list of opportunities on which to spend scare operating funds, but this one would have to be in the competition.

word

[Spade]

New York City runs 24/7. I know for a fact Boston and Washington DC shuts down at night.

It would be nice if there were at least a 2 am last run on weekends to serve the bar crowd. I live in the burbs and would be nice to get home without getting in the car. Taxi for me would be over $50, probably $100.

Yeah, we in DC would love for it to run 24 hours but we know it won't happen. Sunday-Thursday, the system starts at 5AM and ends around Midnight depending on where you are at. But on Friday and Saturday nights, the system runs to around 3AM. Friday is the longest as the system starts at 5 and ends around 3. Sunday is the shortest as it starts at 7 and ends at midnight.

Also, I read somewhere that it has to do with the number of tracks? 2 track systems can't run 24 hours but 4 track systems can and that's because of maitenenance reasons. Could be wrong.

[Justin Terveen]

I'd love to hop a bus or train into dtd for a quick set right now, but no joy. Put on your tennies...we're hoofin' it.

[GreenzaLine]

New York City is the only city I know of that runs their trains 24/7. Berlin runs trains all night only on Friday and Saturday nights. Both heavily modify their service patterns at night. Unfortunately, Dallas/Fort Worth does not have the level of ridership to allow trains to run 24/7. (Hell, one of our four train lines doesn't even live up to the "7" part!)

But I don't think it would be hard for Dallas to muster up nighttime bus service. Of course, not every bus line would work for overnight service. It would probably be better to run special late night lines that could correspond to several different lines during the daytime. Number them Nxx to fit in with DART's current 0xx, 1xx, 2xx, &c. numbering scheme. Run a few to parallel the train lines to sweep up the people who were out just a little too late to catch the last train. And of course, no express services. They have the highest per-rider costs in the daytime and there's no way they could be economical at night. Maybe charge a higher price for the service. It might require a special ticket, since the ride could span across DART's 3 AM cutoff point for tickets each day.

I also wonder how feasible it would be to fill in the holes in the TRE's schedule with bus service...