DART Plots Love Field Stop

[RobertB]

Cityplace is in the top ten, but it certainly isn't the top one, which is what I would expect for the astronomical price that must have been paid. Now, how much was that tunnel? They should've saved the money for Love Field.
Don't forget the alternative, though -- if you didn't have a tunnel, wouldn't DART have had to use the MKT ROW, now known as the Katy Trail?

Also, hindsight is 20/20. Without the experience of successfully boring the tunnel under Central Expressway, would anyone even take the idea of a Love Field Tunnel seriously?

[Spjz]

I am totally gonna ride my bike to a station and catch a train to Cityplace tomorrow to see the $4 matinee of '300'. All you Cityplace haters need to respect! :director:

[Mballar]

Cityplace is in the top ten, but it certainly isn't the top one, which is what I would expect for the astronomical price that must have been paid. Now, how much was that tunnel? They should've saved the money for Love Field.
I just wish the City Council would muster all of its "will power" and find a way to fund the tunnel. I believe that, in the long run, it is the most beneficial alignment for the airport, the City of Dallas, and the entire metroplex.

[tamtagon]

Brookhollow and/or Inwood Station built with a baggage check and 3-5 minute total trip time to the terminal is an equal or better airport interface than the subway.

[desirous]

I am totally gonna ride my bike to a station and catch a train to Cityplace tomorrow to see the $4 matinee of '300'. All you Cityplace haters need to respect! :director:
Funny you say that, because I did the exact same thing.

Don't forget the alternative, though -- if you didn't have a tunnel, wouldn't DART have had to use the MKT ROW, now known as the Katy Trail?

Also, hindsight is 20/20. Without the experience of successfully boring the tunnel under Central Expressway, would anyone even take the idea of a Love Field Tunnel seriously?
Was there no feasible route west of Central Expressway? Or any way to build the tunnel directly beneath West Village?

[Mballar]

Brookhollow and/or Inwood Station built with a baggage check and 3-5 minute total trip time to the terminal is an equal or better airport interface than the subway.

Tell that to an international visitor/tourist who doesn't speak English that well, or one who's never visited the city before. He/she would have to figure out how/where to exit the terminal (probably with large bags in tow), board a shuttle bus to the Brookhollow or Inwood Stations, then figure out which platform to board the train from, then get on a train going in his/her desired direction. I don't understand how that's an "equal or better interface" than a station directly under the terminal, with a platform that can be reached by simply descending down an escalator/elevator. Imagine the return trip, and trying to get back to Love Field. It would probably be a more inconvenient experience.

[dfwcre8tive]

Tell that to an international visitor/tourist who doesn't speak English that well, or one who's never visited the city before. He/she would have to figure out how/where to exit the terminal (probably with large bags in tow), board a shuttle bus to the Brookhollow or Inwood Stations, then figure out which platform to board the train from, then get on a train going in his/her desired direction. I don't understand how that's an "equal or better interface" than a station directly under the terminal, with a platform that can be reached by simply descending down an escalator/elevator. Imagine leaving from the airport. It would probably be a more inconvenient experience.

Well, I don't think there would be that many international tourists, since Love is only a DOMESTIC airport (but Spanish signs might come in handy).

[Haretip]

I think it is a little premature to judge Citiplace Station seeing as the West side is not built out yet. When that happens, the station will move up a few notches on the top ten list.

[Mballar]

Well, I don't think there would be that many international tourists, since Love is only a DOMESTIC airport (but Spanish signs might come in handy).
Planning requires thinking about realities that will exist or could possibly exist in the future, not on today's realities. You'll get a small taste of the type of reality I'm talking about when/if the Metroplex hosts the 2011 Super Bowl.

[PuddinHead]

Planning requires thinking about realities that will exist or could possibly exist in the future, not on today's realities. You'll get a small taste of the type of reality I'm talking about when/if the Metroplex hosts the 2011 Super Bowl.

Which is why the powers that be have decided it is a waste of time and effort to spend money on a subway tunnel for that Cotton Bowl of an airport. In 20 years or so that airport will be so marginalized by the growth elsewhere in the region that not even Southwest will want to be there.

[crazytony]

Which is why the powers that be have decided it is a waste of time and effort to spend money on a subway tunnel for that Cotton Bowl of an airport. In 20 years or so that airport will be so marginalized by the growth elsewhere in the region that not even Southwest will want to be there.

:2damn: I wouldn't want to see what Downtown Dallas looks like (5 miles from DAL) in 20 years if you prediction holds true. I mean, that's laying waste to the 4th largest O&D market in the WN network.

[St-T]

Which is why the powers that be have decided it is a waste of time and effort to spend money on a subway tunnel for that Cotton Bowl of an airport. In 20 years or so that airport will be so marginalized by the growth elsewhere in the region that not even Southwest will want to be there.

Stop reading Mike Boyd's columns on this... he hasn't been in the Metroplex for a while, obvioulsly. Dallas and North Suburbs have easy access to Love. DFW and Love both have a fabulous future in for Dallas.

[psukhu]

Dallas and North Suburbs have easy access to Love. DFW and Love both have a fabulous future in for Dallas.

You are correct. Door to door, I can get to Love Field from Frisco in 30 minutes in the morning. That should be even quicker after the new segments of the tollway opens later this year.

[psukhu]

How difficult will it be to actually get a people mover built to connect the Love Field Station to the terminals?

Is this something that the city will drop the ball on?

[desirous]

How difficult will it be to actually get a people mover built to connect the Love Field Station to the terminals?

Is this something that the city will drop the ball on?
Probably. As someone said above, they'll probably end up with a bus that says "People Mover" on it.

[DallasMan]

Re: Other cities' connections to airports:
Minneapolis

Actually, I was in Minneapolis this last weekend, and yes, the rail does connect to the airport, BUT, you must take a "people mover" tram thingy to get to the light rail. Honestly, if Dallas can build something as nice as the people mover in Minneapolis, then it won't be that bad...it worked very nicely. By the way, the rail there is very limited, but very nice. It must be relatively new.

Oh, and their downtown (even w/ the cooooold weather) was still 20 times better than DT Dallas - it made me sad/frustrated.

[RobertB]

I'm going to try to summarize the items that the DART Board will vote on tomorrow (3/27). Full details are available (for a limited time) at the Board Agendas (http://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/boardagendas.asp) page of the DART.org site. Click on "DART Board Supplemental Information".

Here's the deceptively simple agenda item:

12. Resolution of Love Field West Area Concerns (Project Management - Lynn Flint Shawl/Tim McKay)
[30 minutes]

Go to page 72 of the pdf and you'll find the details. Here's the kicker for many on this forum, though:

* In November 2004 (Resolution No. 040157), the Board approved transit service to Dallas
Love Field Airport. As part of this resolution funding in the amount of $20 million (in 2002
dollars) remained in the Twenty-year Financial Plan for Love Field Airport transit service.

* Funding from this Twenty-year Financial Plan line item is available and could be used to
fund a City of Dallas project to rebuild Little Denton Drive concurrent with the DART
construction. This amount of funding will no longer be available for Love Field transit
access unless replenished by the City of Dallas.

Bottom line: unless the city puts its money where its mouth is, DART will no longer be planning a tunnel under Love Field. Instead, it will use the money set aside for tunnel planning to mollify the vocal Love Field neighborhoods and businesses, because the City won't pony up for the required street upgrades.

DART offers the city a choice: defer DART's maintenance of other city streets, or use $3.5 million of the $20 million to fix the "problems". Nobody ever got elected to City Council by promising NOT to fix potholes, so it's almost certain that the city will choose to raid the Love Field Tunnel piggybank. But once the piggybank is cracked, how long can the rest of the pennies stay inside? I think this is the beginning of the end for the tunnel.


The other major development in the item is about the elevated crossing at Mockingbird. DART currently plans to tunnel underneath Mockingbird (and the freight rail that crosses there). Here are the items regarding changing the plan to an elevated guideway:


* The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) closed the public comment period for an
elevated crossing of Mockingbird and Hawes on March 10, 2007. A formal determination
from the FAA is expected by late March or early April.

[...]
* DART will move forward with construction of the current underpass design at
Mockingbird unless the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) rules favorably for an
elevated crossing. The underpass as currently designed will come to surface south of
Hawes Street, providing two options for Hawes:

a) The City will permanently close the Hawes crossing on April 11,2007 and DART
will create a cul-de-sac or hammerhead terminus. DART will also provide up to
$500,000 to the City for site access improvements; or

b) The City will leave Hawes open as an at-grade crossing, which will require
slowing northbound trains to 20 mph. This approach is conditioned on a
determination that there is no encroachment by traffic control or crossing
equipment into the FAA regulated air space. This approach also requires City of
Dallas approval of appropriate traffic signal devices and the donation of land from
Dallas Love Field. No site access improvements will be provided by DART under
this option.

It's hard to figure out what is going on inside DART's mind here, but the amount of detail in option "b" makes me think that DART is not counting on a favorable FAA ruling. The business that is upset about DART's plans will be pleased as punch if DART trains slow to 20mph, but it will throw a huge wrench in LRT scheduling. So DART will pay $500k if the City will let them close the crossing... and if not, the City has to pony up for everything but the crossing gates, and give up some Love Field land to boot. Won't they look sheepish if the company goes belly-up before the line even gets built? Short-sighted management can do that to ya...

April 11 looks to be the magic date -- everyone's hoping for a reprieve from the heavens before then. If the FAA approves the elevated guideway, everyone can go home happy.

[psukhu]

Re: Other cities' connections to airports:
Minneapolis

Actually, I was in Minneapolis this last weekend, and yes, the rail does connect to the airport, BUT, you must take a "people mover" tram thingy to get to the light rail. Honestly, if Dallas can build something as nice as the people mover in Minneapolis, then it won't be that bad...it worked very nicely. By the way, the rail there is very limited, but very nice. It must be relatively new.

Oh, and their downtown (even w/ the cooooold weather) was still 20 times better than DT Dallas - it made me sad/frustrated.

I was just there again and I got back yesterday. They actually still have snow on the ground! But anyway, did you ever notice that the people mover is actually cable driven like the cable cars in San Fran?

I hope Love Field builds a people mover. They could always build a rental car garage on the east side and use the people mover to connect the LRT station to the terminals and the rental car facility.

[dallasbrink]

There is a video on the dart Web Site talking about the green line and it appears that there is going to be a people mover like the one at DFW that will go around the perimeter most likely. But a spur underground seems more practical then just a slow people mover around the perimeter.

[RobertB]

There is a video on the dart Web Site talking about the green line and it appears that there is going to be a people mover like the one at DFW that will go around the perimeter most likely. But a spur underground seems more practical then just a slow people mover around the perimeter.
Practical, sure. Affordable, notsomuch.

The cost of putting a tunnel under Love was just too big a hurdle, and if DART had insisted on the Tunnel of Love, the Feds would have axed the funding that made the whole Green Line possible. The only alternative would have been if some other agency had stepped in with a big check, but the city of Dallas is busy paving the Trinity, and Southwest Airlines is busy handing AA its own vertical stablizer.

[dallasbrink]

Ya, im with you, the people mover seems a waist of some peoples time

[Mballar]

How difficult will it be to actually get a people mover built to connect the Love Field Station to the terminals?

Is this something that the city will drop the ball on?
I don't think so. The construction timeline for the proposed people mover, and other tidbits of info are contained in the document linked below.

http://www.dallascityhall.com/committee_briefings/briefings0607/TEC_061107_LoveField.pdf

[UptownDallas]

I don't think so. The construction timeline for the proposed people mover, and other tidbits of info are contained in the document linked below.

http://www.dallascityhall.com/committee_briefings/briefings0607/TEC_061107_LoveField.pdf

I agree. One of the ironic twists in the Wright Amendment compromise was that American Airlines, DFW Airport and the City of Ft. Worth became fixated on reducing the Love Field airfare advantage by driving up costs.

As a result, the compromise mandates a minimum level of capital spending at Love Field. The costs associated with this massive capital improvement program will be borne by Love Field passengers as follows:
1) Directly, via the implementation of a PFC (passenger facility charge) equal to an amount between $3.00 and $6.00 per ticket; and
2) Indirectly via increased charges to Southwest Airlines (landing fees, gate fees, etc.) which the airline will be forced to pass along to Love Field users as an increased cost of doing business.

[PuddinHead]

I agree. One of the ironic twists in the Wright Amendment compromise was that American Airlines, DFW Airport and the City of Ft. Worth became fixated on reducing the Love Field airfare advantage by driving up costs.

As a result, the compromise mandates a minimum level of capital spending at Love Field. The costs associated with this massive capital improvement program will be borne by Love Field passengers as follows:
1) Directly, via the implementation of a PFC (passenger facility charge) equal to an amount between $3.00 and $6.00 per ticket; and
2) Indirectly via increased charges to Southwest Airlines (landing fees, gate fees, etc.) which the airline will be forced to pass along to Love Field users as an increased cost of doing business.


Are you sure that Southwest just didn't want a modern updated terminal for its own Dallas area airport?

Sure the other parties wanted to equalize costs between DFW and DAL for the airlines but to paste the total blame for the costs to update the terminal on the other parties to the compromise besides Southwest is less than credible.

Remember Southwest would have paid off the devil himself to remain at Love Field.