DART Plots Love Field Stop

[Lakewooder]

I have a hard time understanding why the Tunnel of Love is discounted as a priority over things like covering Woodall Rogers. I'm certainly in favor of covering the freeway, but I would think the tunnel would reap even larger rewards. Similarly, I'm for the Trinity Plan, but I can't understand why an opportunity such as Haskell Boulevard should be shelved.

I know $60 million here and there and soon you are talking about real money, but these items are critical to our future.

I think the previous council blew it by not making the last bond issue larger. Fair Park should also be a very high on the list as it is something which will bring returns -- it's one of the only things in Dallas that is unique in the world.

[tamtagon]

Are you talking about a six-mile subway route with six stations?

No, not a subway. Tracks on the ground or elevated where absolutely necessary. The station locations are mostly to signify the neighborhood characteristics of each station. There is plenty of room for a train to crowd some cars off the road - or - convert alleys in Oak Lawn for use by DART trains.

[Lakewooder]

What about making this some kind of extension of MATA, going right up the middle of Cedar Springs (not the part from downtown )? How'bout that Robert B?

[RobertB]

What about making this some kind of extension of MATA, going right up the middle of Cedar Springs (not the part from downtown )? How'bout that Robert B?
The resident trolley experts would have more to say on the subject, but my thought is that a trolley line -- as we currently know it -- is not particularly well-suited for an airport link. Visitors flying into town want to get somewhere FAST... otherwise, they'd have Gone Greyhound or just driven in.

When they get off the plane, they're either meeting someone and leaving immediately, or they need to get to a meeting/convention/whatever as soon as possible. They will gladly pay for the privilege of getting there faster. A 15-minute LRT ride to downtown from Love will win out over a taxi ride, because the taxi is constrained by the road system. The trolley has similar constraints and will always be slower than the taxi.

Trolleys are better suited as circulators in areas that are destinations in themselves, such as Uptown, Deep Ellum, Downtown, or Jefferson Ave. I've heard this described as "syncopation" -- uneven movement from bar to bar. Nobody (except airline employees flying for free) would consider flying into Love just to take a trolley ride down Oak Lawn.

[Lakewooder]

Bar to Bar is important, especially along Cedar Springs.

[RobertB]

No, not a subway. Tracks on the ground or elevated where absolutely necessary. The station locations are mostly to signify the neighborhood characteristics of each station. There is plenty of room for a train to crowd some cars off the road - or - convert alleys in Oak Lawn for use by DART trains.
Part of Oak Lawn's character, to me at least, is the combination of residential and entertainment within close proximity. You can't just go running LRT tracks down behind people's houses. And Lancaster Ave. shows that running LRT down the middle of a commercial street doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper. I don't see any way to run surface LRT through Oak Lawn and Uptown -- or a second line through Downtown, for that matter -- without project-killing disruptions to existing residences and businesses.

[freewaytincan]

And Lancaster Ave. shows that running LRT down the middle of a commercial street doesn't work nearly as well in practice as it does on paper.

Yeah, just look at Houston.

[RobertB]

Yeah, just look at Houston.
I don't feel I've been able to receive an accurate report from the Houston system -- everything is either rose-colored glasses, "Houston Sucks", or anti-transit propaganda. This makes it hard to make valid comparisons -- and don't forget, DART's Deep Ellum station will be in the Good-Latimer median. You're close enough to tell -- how well does it actually serve its destinations? Is there a "right place" for in-median LRT?

[freewaytincan]

Is there a "right place" for in-median LRT?

Yeah, where they've blocked all vehicle traffic on a road and turned it into a pedestrian mall. That's why there are so many accidents in Houston, it's on Main Street, where it is periodically open to full traffic both ways in addition to the light rail.

[psukhu]

Has Southwest Airlines done anything to help get the tunnel built? They seem to have some political power in DC and Austin.

If they don't get behind this, it will never happen.

[RobertB]

Has Southwest Airlines done anything to help get the tunnel built? They seem to have some political power in DC and Austin.

If they don't get behind this, it will never happen.
SWA's lobbyists in DC are working on one thing -- repealing the Wright Amendment. If that's successful, then I think they'd consider paying for the tunnel themselves, or at least part of it -- see previous messages in this thread about the airport expansions Southwest is paying for in the Pacific Northwest.

If for some reason SWA can't get Wright repealed, then it doesn't do any good to build a direct link from Love to Downtown, because there won't be anyone to ride it. But if Wright goes away, Southwest can offer NYC executives office-to-office car-free transport from Manhattan to Downtown Dallas.

[rantanamo]

AA and DFW airport should also help get the best route to DFW built. These airlines/airports are always talking about how they serve the community. Nothing bigger than this, and it would actually benefit them both.

[RobertB]

I just stumbled across a great site with the basics of tunneling. It's the companion site to an October, 2000 PBS 5-part series called "Building Big", of which one part is about big tunnels. The information is presented in a fun format, and is not very technical, but gives a good overview of tunneling methods, obstacles, and history. Things I didn't know: the Romans built aqueduct tunnels by lighting a fire by a rock face, then quenching it with water. This caused the rock to crack and shatter. It also tended to kill the slaves who tended the fires deep inside the unventilated tunnels.

Building Big: All About Tunnels
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/buildingbig/tunnel/index.html

Other shows in the series: Bridges, Domes, Skyscrapers (including the World Trade Center (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/buildingbig/wonder/structure/world_trade.html) buildings), and Dams.

[tamtagon]

Wondering about the airport station again....

Just looking at the Brookhollow Station in the image RobertB brought here, I'm not sure why we need a $100+ million spur from Inwood, or even why a tunnel under the runway with station inside the terminal is necessary OR even the best idea.

Brookhollow is right there, right next the the airport. Is it out of the question to build secure skybridge and/or tunnel from Brookhollow to the gates? Like, exit the train at Brookhollow and walk a short distance to Brookhollow-Love Field lobby, go through all baggage and security checks points, and take the moving sidewalk to the gates.

If not much else is planned for the Brookhollow station, then go ahead and add to the Southwest HQ neighborhood with an airport hotel, mixed-use TOD development and airport check-in.

[RobertB]

Wondering about the airport station again....

Just looking at the Brookhollow Station in the image RobertB brought here, I'm not sure why we need a $100+ million spur from Inwood, or even why a tunnel under the runway with station inside the terminal is necessary OR even the best idea.

Brookhollow is right there, right next the the airport. Is it out of the question to build secure skybridge and/or tunnel from Brookhollow to the gates? Like, exit the train at Brookhollow and walk a short distance to Brookhollow-Love Field lobby, go through all baggage and security checks points, and take the moving sidewalk to the gates.

If not much else is planned for the Brookhollow station, then go ahead and add to the Southwest HQ neighborhood with an airport hotel, mixed-use TOD development and airport check-in.
Um, there's this little matter of a RUNWAY in between Brookhollow Station and the terminal, so a skybridge is right out.

And DART's engineering studies show that you can't build a shallow tunnel under it, because the water table is so close to the surface. Anything that crosses the runways at a depth of 20 feet or less (IIRC) will have huge problems with water, including the possibility of the tunnel attempting to float to the surface... and damage the runway. Anything deeper would have to be bored through the solid rock -- and at that point, you may as well run a train through it. The problems aren't as obvious as with the skybridge, but they're just as real.

Finally, Brookhollow is far away from *everything*... except SWA's headquarters, and a bunch of dumpy industrial buildings and rail sidings. It has virtually zero TOD in the near to mid term. In fact, it's a pretty poor location for a station in the first place -- if SWA goes through with their threats to move their HQ to someplace that they can actually fly from, I doubt DART will bother building the station.

[AndyIvey]

Brookhollow (north of Burbank Street near Denton Drive) - Attached is the DCAD view


Isn't there going to be a faster way to Love from Dallas (or Plano) other than going through downtown?

[RobertB]

Isn't there going to be a faster way to Love from Dallas (or Plano) other than going through downtown?
I'd love to imagine it, but what would it be?

Come to think of it, though, weren't there plans for a Mockingbird Tunnel to bypass the Park Cities? You could go ahead and add a couple of tubes for DART while you were at it.

Now look what you've done, you've sparked my imagination, and I can't stop thinking about it until I draw a map. :) Red is above-ground LRT, blue is below-ground subway, and purple is the Mockingbird auto tunnel. I haven't looked up where the Mockingbird tunnel was proposed to start and end, so I guessed that it would start in the big Mockingbird-Lemmon intersection and emerge just before Central Expressway (it couldn't cross Central without interfering with existing subway operations). If you route the road tubes on the north and the LRT tubes on the south, they'll fit just fine without crossing or interfering with each other.

Operations would be tricky, though -- any time you have a spur, you introduce inefficiency. This probably isn't the most workable arrangement. Plus, there's the little problem of the Mockingbird Auto Tunnel meeting such strong opposition from the Park Cities (why, I have yet to figure out). And it assumes that the Transit Fairy will leave several billion dollars under DART's pillow.

[slfunk]

Plus, there's the little problem of the Mockingbird Auto Tunnel meeting such strong opposition from the Park Cities (why, I have yet to figure out). And it assumes that the Transit Fairy will leave several billion dollars under DART's pillow.

Well the Mockingbird Tunnel was to be privately funded. Some local politician began spreading rumors that if they dig the tunnel it could disrupt the foundations of many of the homes. Even though experts spoke on the issue to assure this was not the case, the politician had more of an influence then the experts.

Go figure, the lemmonies can't think for themselves.

[Columbus Civil]

Who are the lemmonies?

[AndyIvey]

I'd love to imagine it, but what would it be?
The problem is that every east/west corridor south of 635 is prime real estate. You couldn't get away with taking land along Forest, Royal, Walnut Hill, Northwest Highway, or Mockingbird. I just wish there was a better way to get to Love than winding through downtown.

I give DART credit for making a lot of hard decisions.

[RobertB]

Well the Mockingbird Tunnel was to be privately funded. Some local politician began spreading rumors that if they dig the tunnel it could disrupt the foundations of many of the homes. Even though experts spoke on the issue to assure this was not the case, the politician had more of an influence then the experts.

Go figure, the lemmonies can't think for themselves.
Aren't many of the Park Cities homes over 60 years old? Perhaps their 1950's-era occupants built bomb shelters in the bedrock. The Cold War may be over, but those rooms must be being used for something. Are they're afraid that a tunnel would disrupt their evil experiments?

[texman]

ANYWAYS, since it looks like a tunnel or skybridge option is out, the spur option is your best bet. It provides direct rail access from DTD to Love; what more could you ask for (At a reasonable cost..)? Does anyone even know what DART's current plans are regarding Love?

[tamtagon]

a RUNWAY in between Brookhollow Station ... so a skybridge is right out.
... the water table is so close to the surface.

duh!

[tamtagon]

So, what's the deal with a DART train station at Love Field? Has anything been set in stone?

[incrediculous]

When I was in Boston a couple years ago, the T didn't stop at the actual airport. You just hopped on a little shuttle at the station. It was real quick. The stop was still called Logan International, and tons of people use it.

[psukhu]

^
I like the water shuttle to downtown when I fly into Boston.


La Guardia doesn't have a train station at all.

[incrediculous]

^
La Guardia doesn't have a train station at all.

Oh man, and do I ever know that. But last year I didn't.

On the eve of the 2005 blizzard I decided I'd take the subway from Jersey City to La Guardia, only to discover there was no rail at La Guardia. I got off the elevated train and found myself towing luggage around unfamiliar streets, in the snow, looking for a bus stop I would never find because a cab found me first.

Ended up having to spend the night on a cot in the airport. But not before I got really drunk and made friends with some people from Long Island. Best 36 hours I've ever spent in an airport.

[RobertB]

Ended up having to spend the night on a cot in the airport. But not before I got really drunk and made friends with some people from Long Island. Best 36 hours I've ever spent in an airport.
So we agree, then... in the interests of building relationships between Texans and the outside world, there must be no rail to Love Field. :) :) :)

[Lakewooder]

Just returned from DC where I had the choice of THREE (3) airports -- chose Reagan National, jumped right on the Metro, transfered at L'Enfant and rode the green line out to the farthest station, where my friends picked me up for a very short ride to Chesapeake Bay (I was going to a yacht christening).

Spent Sunday night in DC at the Helix, walked five blocks to McPherson Sq. and got on the Metro to Reagan -- no transfers, no hassle.

These trips were in the $2.00 range, so it took less than five bucks for me to get around D.C.

It would be idiotic not to have a DART stop at Love, connecting with DFW.

[grantboston]

There technically is no "Logan International" stop. There's an "Airport" stop on the blue line which requires a change to a shuttle bus that goes in a circle around all of the terminals.

Additionally, the MBTA opened the Silver Line in the past few years. It's a high speed bus line that goes to each terminal and doesn't require a transfer. I think they plan to make it into some sort of subway eventually, but I'm not sure how that would work with Logan. to my knowledge there is no underground easement set aside for an eventual subway stop.

In any event, a DART train on a line to Love Field would definitely be an improvement over the Blue Line system shuttle type system in Boston.

[BigD5349]

If key members of our congressional delegation weren't consumed with preserving the Wright Amendment, they would have brought home the bacon to build a tunnel into Love Field. That should've been an EBJ issue to bring home; she is not doing her job. I'm still stunned that none of our elected leaders stepped forward and said, "we've got to find a way to get this done..."



Just returned from DC where I had the choice of THREE (3) airports -- chose Reagan National, jumped right on the Metro, transfered at L'Enfant and rode the green line out to the farthest station, where my friends picked me up for a very short ride to Chesapeake Bay (I was going to a yacht christening).

Spent Sunday night in DC at the Helix, walked five blocks to McPherson Sq. and got on the Metro to Reagan -- no transfers, no hassle.

These trips were in the $2.00 range, so it took less than five bucks for me to get around D.C.

It would be idiotic not to have a DART stop at Love, connecting with DFW.

[FoUTASportscaster]

That's because they are trying to shut down Love, therefore it is a waste to have a stop here.

[freewaytincan]

Just returned from DC where I had the choice of THREE (3) airports -- chose Reagan National, jumped right on the Metro, transfered at L'Enfant and rode the green line out to the farthest station, where my friends picked me up for a very short ride to Chesapeake Bay (I was going to a yacht christening).

Spent Sunday night in DC at the Helix, walked five blocks to McPherson Sq. and got on the Metro to Reagan -- no transfers, no hassle.

These trips were in the $2.00 range, so it took less than five bucks for me to get around D.C.

It would be idiotic not to have a DART stop at Love, connecting with DFW.

What's it like flying into Reagan? Is it really expensive? I always end up flying into BWI or Dulles, though Dulles is the best option since my parents live way over in the western part of the state, past all the Norther Virginia sprawl.

[US75Guy]

Reagan National is an incredible airport to land at. It feels like you are about to land in the Potomac, with the Washington Monument and Jefferson Memorial in the background. Kind of surprising it was allowed to reopen after 9/11.

[grantboston]

From what I've recalled, Pilots consider it and Long Beach(?) the two most difficult airports to land/take off in the country because they're surrounded by noise abatements/no fly zones, etc.

I've always enjoyed taking off from DCA more than landing. The view right over the mall and the assorted DC memorials is breathtaking, especially at night.

Of course, the airport is really nice inside, but in a classicaly well built type of way, not in Terminal D style awe and wonder. I hope that at some point some improvements can be made to DAL to make it more of the "urban" airport. But it seems like some are too busy trying to close it or tear it down to focus on that.

Also, DCA has a DC Metro stop right near the terminal which makes for easy connections within the district itself. Hopefully the eventual DART line will facilitate that same ease and reduce some of the purported traffic snarl around the airport.

[tamtagon]

The airport train stations are great option for many airplane passengers, but the airport employees (at Love Field and especially at DFW) should have equal consideration in the design of pedestrian movement.

[kenc]

Sorry, but why is a thread that has not seen an entry since 2004 still here?

[Rob]

Are you talking about this thread?


As to your question, here's a few reasons:

A) Old threads are fun to dig up to see what changed over the years and how initial impressions and details were or weren't correct?
B) Because sometimes projects are stagnant for 2 years and then suddenly become relevant again.
C) Because the point of the forum is to store and foster conversation, not delete it after X number of days or years,

[FoUTASportscaster]

Sorry, but why is a thread that has not seen an entry since 2004 still here?

Why does it matter to you? If you don't like it, don't read it. Most forums don't destroy their old threads.

Unlike Dallas, I like the forum to not destroy it's history as a point of reference and entrtainment.

[tamtagon]

Welcome to the forum kenc.



Why does it matter to you? If you don't like it, don't read it.

Always primed and ready to bite so somebody's head off??

Every so often, there's a housecleaning and some old threads are deleted. Sometimes a topic discussion takes a pause, then picks up in a brand new thread but for whatever reason, the threads dont get merged. Or, the topic of conversation just dies, but not the history of the topic. It's not perfect; no topic matrix, time sensitive flags or anything fancy database stuff like that.

[FoUTASportscaster]

Always primed and ready to bite so somebody's head off??

No, just a statement, not meant to be mean.

But if I am new to something, like say this board, I don't go in just throwing something around when there are over 1300 members who were here before. If I went to your house and started asking you why you have some old things or why you do what you do, implying it is a bad practice, you'd get mildly annoyed.

Anywho, welcome aboard.

[tamtagon]

No, just a statement, not meant to be mean.

rock on

[RobertB]

Time to dust off an old thread with a new question: How does the effective lifting of the Wright Amendment restrictions, at least on through-ticketing, affect the future of the Love Field station?

Things to consider:

* Brookhollow Station, the one with no parking across from Southwest Airlines headquarters, has been re-labelled as "Love Field Station" at least since August. Original plans called for Inwood Station to be the primary "Love Field" destination, with shuttle busses to the terminal. What other changes are behind the modified name?

* DART has done some preliminary design work on two alternatives: a tunnel under Love Field as part of the Green/Purple main line, and a spur to the terminal along Cedar Springs. However, neither option made the grade when DART successfully applied for federal funding for the new lines.

* The City of Dallas has said it would make a financial contribution to the project. Now that Southwest Airlines can plan for Love Field's future, will Herb & Co. ante up? Is there a scenario where arch-rival American Airlines joins the game, lured by the promise of a rapid LRT connector from DAL to their DFW hub?

* On the down side, flight volumes can't increase if Dallas follows through on their promise to condemn and demolish gate space -- the dark side of the Congressional compromise. Does this reduce the number of potential rail passengers? Or does it give Southwest even more reason to support rail as a way of getting passengers out of the now-limited terminal areas?

[Mballar]

It's my understanding that the airlines at Love Field will have to partially fund a "people mover system" from the terminal to the Love Field Station as part ot the compromise agreement. What form this "people mover system" will take is a mystery to me. I hope that it's an underground moving walkway, though.

[tamtagon]

It's my understanding that the airlines at Love Field will have to partially fund a "people mover system" from the terminal to the Love Field Station as part ot the compromise agreement. What form this "people mover system" will take is a mystery to me. I hope that it's an underground moving walkway, though.

... at one time didnt TxDOT offer to contribute something like $160 million toward a station in the Love Field terminal????

I think I would prefer an above ground people mover/ moving walkway to show off the rockin' skyline view from Love Field.

[RobertB]

... at one time didnt TxDOT offer to contribute something like $160 million toward a station in the Love Field terminal????

I think I would prefer an above ground people mover/ moving walkway to show off the rockin' skyline view from Love Field.
For some reason, I don't think there are any airports with above-ground moving walkways over active runways... maybe Calatrava can design one for us. :)

[tamtagon]

For some reason, I don't think there are any airports with above-ground moving walkways over active runways... maybe Calatrava can design one for us. :)

Well, I was kinda assuming that since the water table is close to the surface (and runways), the cost of a tunnel for a dedicated, time of day limited walkway would be prohibitive. If not, then maybe the people mover can be above ground from the train station until it gets too close to the runway - OR - maybe the people mover will just take the long way 'round the runways.

[texman]

So I assume even the spur option is dead. Thankyou FTA.

[dfwcre8tive]

Is the people mover from the airport to light rail station supposed to be complete by the time the rail line opens?

[texman]

Is the people mover from the airport to light rail station supposed to be complete by the time the rail line opens?
Wait, what is this?