Love Field tunnel or Downtown tunnel?

[Columbus Civil]

It seems like DART may have to choose between a light rail station in the Love Field terminal (the more expensive tunnel option) and a future underground line downtown. I know that the two station options for Love have been discussed on this forum before, but I really wish they'd go ahead and commit the money now to tunnel underneath the airport and have the station in the terminal.

Anyway, this is the first serious discussion I've seen about an underground line downtown. I'm not sure whether the surface alignment or the underground alignment would make more sense for downtown. Any thoughts?

www.dallasnews.com/latestnews/stories/080102dnmetdartlove.5c41c.html (http://www.dallasnews.com/latestnews/stories/080102dnmetdartlove.5c41c.html)

[bloodandpopcorn]

I think we should go ahead with Love Field going right up to it. If that line opens and does well and the economy starts to rebound, DART might be able to suceed enough that a dowtown subway line could be possible. if nothing else, it's far more improtant to have direct access than to have an underground line downtown in 2013, in my opinion. I would love that, as everyone here probably would, but an additional line above ground would be nearly as great and effective, just not allowing for as long of trains. But DART really needs to get even more people riding and excited about it, the current deficite (sorry, I can't spell) is terrible news.

[MustangMonkey]

I agree, direct access to Love Field is far more important than underground access to downtown. It will greatly inhance ridership, thus giving more money to do other things.

Remember, building an additional surface lline downtown would not rule out it being moved underground in the future. However, misallining the love field line today would most likely result in it being permanatly mis-allinged.


The shorter train lenghts, which are limited by the downtown grid (to my knowledge) is not a problem durring normal business days. Again, to my knowledge, this was only a problem on the 4th, when 200,000+ people were DT and all wanted to leave at the same time.

I think, that on such occasions, it would simmply be esier to let the trains overflow the grid. Sure traffic my have to wait at a red light for an extra minute and a half, but so what. I belive it is more important to move the hundereds of people in a train more efficiently than it is to move the 30 or so people that may wait a little extra time at a traffic light.

And cheaper than building a tunnel.

[jsoto3]

i think the downtown tunnel is a ridiculous idea. it would be tremendously expensive and would do the same thing the current pedestrian tunnels do, keep people off the streets. an "underground city," a la montreal, would develop = bad urbanism for dallas.

[homer2]

Before DART goes and raises prices on tickets, why doesn't it put some effort into enforcing the current ticket price?? When the trains first started running in 96, I had my ticket checked every other time or so, but no it seems that tickets are never checked! I'm pretty sure that quite a few people dont even bother buying tickets anymore. I've also seen lots of people selling used and/or counterfeit tickets at rail staions. DART seems to be turning a blind eye to this too. If they increase the price AND reduce the service, they will have fewer riders, not more...thats SOO obvious...and if enforcement doesnt improve, even more people will cheat the system!! Why not look into other sources of revenue??? How about advertisements?!?! All the ad space in the trains is taken up by crapy poetry that doesnt even rhym! I thought DART had finally gotten their act together after all these year...but now I see that they are just as incompetant as ever!

[longhornfan]

Good point, why is DART not selling space on trains for advertising. I realize some people consider it clutter, etc, etc but it is a potentially huge source of revenue for them. I was in the ad industry so I am kind of biased...but it is done in every other major transit system in the country.

As for Love Field versus downtown...my vote goes to Love Field. The ridership would be much greater and of use to more people. I would love to see a subway line downtown but until there are more reasons to go downtown -- which with the way things are moving I am getting more and more skeptical of -- they should build where the greater need is.

[mjansson]

Downtown Dallas needs the tunnel. Anyone who rides the train downtown during rush hour knows how crowded it's becoming. Every time Dart extends its reach it gets worse. Right now there is standing room only during rush hour. Also, having the trains run on street level mixing with cars is simply a bad idea, which is why streetcars where abandoned a long time ago.

[MustangMonkey]

Unfortunatly I do not work downtown, and don't see how things opperate on a daily basis. I know that people think that the trains can't be extended because they would overflow a city block. What I don't understand is why they can't overflow a city block. Would people literally have to board the trains from street level, or would it simply mean that auto-traffic would have to sit at a red light that last a little longer?

[GarrettCarey]

It means the auto-traffic would have to sit at a red light a little longer

[MustangMonkey]

Whould this traffic stop be any worse than waiting on a red light for traditional auto-traffic?
When I go on my little field trips DT (lunch times) it dosen't seem like it would be to much trouble, but then again I'm not down there at 8am to 9am and 5pm. Traffic north to south usually isn't bad so I wouldn't think that light timming would be too bad. Anyway, I'll wait to here from those who know better than I.

I will however agree that eventually, a subway is the way to go, so that train lenght will not be an issue. However, my guess on street cars going out is based more on their speed and lack of alternate right-of-way for going long distances. They couldn't compete with the Highway.

[GarrettCarey]

i personally do not think it would make things that much worse. maybe a little in the morning and a little in the evening.

also, i think the DART trains go as fast as 65-70 mph.......or close to that anyways and they do not have to start and stop like the highway traffic

[KelleyUSA]

Why does it seem that everyone is catering to the auto traffic? BIG FREAKIN DEAL that someone may have to wait at a light for an extra minute. It's well worth it and sooner or later people will need to realize you can't use the car for everything. I remember a few years ago when Belo announced plans to build a park downtown with fountains etc... However, this would have meant the closure of a few streets. It was quickly shot down by city council because of the traffic concerns and that people would have to actually drive down an extra block to get to where they needed to go.

[MustangMonkey]

Kelly:
You can't actually expect people to hold down that gas pedle for a whole extra block just so we can have some extra nice green park downtown. That is just tooo much to ask.

We might have a great downtown park system if every surface parking lot was changed into a park.

"BIG FREAKIN DEAL" ---------I couldn't agree more

[metrosteve]

Help me!!!!!I want the downtown tunnel, the Love Field tunnel AND the freakin' parks. Any agency that has taken in BILLIONS of dollars such as DART over the last 19 years and was just granted the ability to borrow to finance the system if necessary can surely come up with more than these "shortfalls"; failure to utilize marketing more effectively and a completely "don't give a damn" attitude about collecting fares. I ride all the time and its one ride in ten, morning noon or night that anyone ever checks tickets. This must not be allowed to go on. More people need to express themselves citywide. Anyway, a deals a deal and I know lots of people who live in the northwestern suburbs of Farmers Branch, Carrollton (member cities), Coppell, Lewisville, Coriinth and Denton (cities studying joining or partcipating in the formation of the Denton County Transit Authority) who are eager to ditch their cars and ride the trains and many even talk about returning to Dallas proper if its rebirth continues. I hear this all the time. Well, that's my rave for now. Thanks for reading!

[bloodandpopcorn]

I also think it's about time for Dart to "Mature" a little - if it could find some way of checking all passenger tickets before they board, that would be best. For stations like cityplace, mockingbird, and the elevated stations, installing some kind of 'ticket check' wouldn't be very hard, but downtown I can see where it would be very prohibative. But I definitly agree that one way or another they need to make sure everyone on the trains pays!

I ahve noticed recently a bit more advertising on trains, and some new ads at Cityplace station. I really cant wait unti lthey open to Plano - I'm waiting to start subscripting to PRT until I dont have to deal with traffic in getting there.

I really tihnk that DART just needs a wider user base before these problems will be fixed, most people i know still don't consider it feasable, but I could never go downtown without it.

[GarrettCarey]

I continue to ride DART....and it is great. In the past month, I have not had anyone check me for a ticket....a shame.

on another note, metrosteve is right....a deal is a deal and the suburbs need to have the rail delivered to them on time, on budget, etc.....but DART needs to have the love field tunnel delivered as well. To me, it seems counterproductive....spend millions now....then spend many more millions later to add the love field tunnel. I think adding the love field tunnel now would help "guarantee" the success of that rail corridor.....

anyway, i hope they can figure something out.