Where rail transit needs to be linked to [Archive]

aceplace

03 May 2004, 02:39 PM

NorthStar,

Good suggestions. The closest one to be realized would be the Cowboys stadium station... IF it is built near or in Fair Park.

Agree with the Arlington site. Especially for exiting from Ranger's games at the ballpark. I think that having that suburban location, where every car has to enter the freeway onramps, is a major disincentive for fans to attend the games. Can you imagine driving in from Plano to see a baseball game, how troublesome that would be?

03 May 2004, 02:45 PM

Agree with the Arlington site. Especially for exiting from Ranger's games at the ballpark. I think that having that suburban location, where every car has to enter the freeway onramps, is a major disincentive for fans to attend the games. Can you imagine driving in from Plano to see a baseball game, how troublesome that would be?

I agree completely. Last night at the Rangers game I saw some friends who live in Frisco. I could not believe it. That is a long long drive home.

mikedsjr

03 May 2004, 02:47 PM

Difference between Plano and Arlington is that most people would be going South from Plano, whereas you have a better mixture of East-West Traffic in Arlington.

And it doesn't seem to keep people from going to the games if you look at the attendance figures. They could build the Cowboy Stadium in Jacksboro and they would sell out.

mikedsjr

03 May 2004, 02:52 PM

There need to be rail stations in...

-Frisco. One at the Stonebrair Centre/ballpark/Star Center area and the other one at the new football stadium.

-Arlington. At the Ballpark/Six Flags/Hurricane Harbour area.

-Fort Worth. TCU, Stockyards, Sundance Square.

-Wherever they build the new Cowboys stadium.

Actually there is a station in walking distance to Sundance Square. And i think they would have to lay brand new tracks for Arlington.

How many of these existing rails are brand new tracks?

North Star

03 May 2004, 03:13 PM

Yes, I realize that you have to build railroad tracks in Arlington. It would be difficult and would take forever. The people from Frisco, I guess the Ruff Ryders were on the road and that's Y they attended the Rangers game.

CTroyMathis

03 May 2004, 04:08 PM

The BNSF line through Frisco is the existing rail corridor that could be used. (Carrollton, The Colony, and as a stretch - far West Plano service areas included.)

The Union Pacific mainline through Arl.-GP is the existing rail corridor that CRT could run on from Dallas Union to downtown FW. A spur between the airport and crossing the TRE to the UP mainline is new construction I guess, though.

aceplace

03 May 2004, 05:48 PM

Actually there is a station in walking distance to Sundance Square. And i think they would have to lay brand new tracks for Arlington.
One problem with the UP trackage through Arlington is that the line is a transcontinental mainline for the UP. They run about a dozen long freight trains through each day, on their way to their FW intermodal hub. Having to run passenger trains every 20 minutes across the line would give them some horrific problems. So they will do anything they can to prevent use of the trackage for commuter rail.

bloodandpopcorn

03 May 2004, 06:52 PM

What if an additional track, or even two, were laid?

drumguy8800

03 May 2004, 09:11 PM

DART is supposed to be making public its latest expansion plans, the 2030 ones, I believe in late May or sometime in June. I believe that a bunch of these places (minus, maybe, Arlington) are included in its plan. We'll just have to wait.

bloodandpopcorn

03 May 2004, 09:14 PM

Frisco will definitely not be included. They are not a DART member, nor do they care terribly much to become one, nor do we care terribly care to have them as members ;-)

pariah

03 May 2004, 11:07 PM

i would like to add the tollway, with stops near the galleria and so on to that list, i always felt they needed a tollway line, somehow

Haretip

04 May 2004, 12:12 AM

Quite a bit of the interurban right-of-way still exists between Dallas and Fort Worth. Sure, you would need some over and underpasses and occasional rerouting, but worth looking into.

drumguy8800

04 May 2004, 02:32 AM

i would like to add the tollway, with stops near the galleria and so on to that list, i always felt they needed a tollway line, somehow

This was actually once proposed..

And, just a thought, but when NTTA finally expands the tollway, (they plan on doing a cantlever, similar to that on US75 to widen it one, maybe two lanes.. at least between 635 and the Harry Hines split downtown..) that might, somehow, someway, enter into the plans. I cannot imagine where (except for a subway line) a LRT line could go. And Highland Park and University Park Residents would absolutely go off on a RANT about there being stations near their homes- If one ever does get built, there will probably be a station near downtown, and not another station until you get somewhere like Mockingbird or Lovers, then one at Loop 12, and only another station at 635 and then limitless stations northward. UP and HP are filled with too many whiney residents.. they would complain about the possible reprocussions of a station in their neighborhood. Just like people did about the Knox-Henderson subway station. Besides that, its not like HP and UP people (except for their youth) would EVER use the trains, and there isn't any shopping or commerce until you get somewhere like Lemmon or Mockingbird that people would need to go to. near FND though, and farther north into Plano and Frisco, there will be a great need for rail expansion in that specific corridor.

On Frisco not joining DART.. I highly doubt that they won't. DART, I believe, is looking at member city expansion plans as part of their soon-to-be-published 2030 plans. I know that DeSoto, Lancaster, Mesquite, Duncanville, and many other cities are showing great interest in joining, but I don't know if DART finds that feasible given the current economic situation.

We'll see what happens..

pariah

04 May 2004, 03:40 AM

true, the tollway line would definitely have to be underground through HP/UP and probably further, I am not sure where they could put it above ground, and for sure the residents of the bubble would fight an L train running above the tollway corridor, my biggest question is would NTTA people fight it. underground all the way to 635 area with a big transit mall underground at the intersection would be awesome, but prohibitively expensive for DART. the whole corridor screams for it though, as well as some crosstowns to link the red line with the tollway line. i hate the fact that HP/UP residents and the like think the whole metroplex revolves around them when they make up a tiny fraction of the population. i think it should just be done without them, the good of the many and so on. dallas has to grow up sometime, with or without the elitists

tamtagon

04 May 2004, 12:50 PM

McKinney-Frisco-Galleria-Love Field-West End.

Jefferson St (downtown Oak Cliff)-Medical Center-Love Field-Mockingbird Station-Fair Park-Farmers Market-City Hall-Union Station.

Wasnt a tunnel proposed under Mockingbird Lane denied by Park Cities citing exhaust vent concerns?

drumguy8800

04 May 2004, 06:18 PM

I didn't think it was denied.. I always thought that the Mockingbird Tunnel was still in the works..

drumguy8800

04 May 2004, 06:20 PM

Jefferson St (downtown Oak Cliff)-Medical Center-Love Field-Mockingbird Station-Fair Park-Farmers Market-City Hall-Union Station.

Thats like a giant curly Q... it would be all.. NE, then E, then SE, then NW, then W.

Interesting proposal, there.

Lakewooder

04 May 2004, 08:34 PM

I heard the tunnel was dead. Also they'll never widen Mockingbird through Park Cities. These people probably killed the WalMart at Lemmon too (although I'm no fan of WalMart).

A friend of mine suggests we build a wall around the Park Cities and charge them to get out!

Foucault

04 May 2004, 08:55 PM

Sadly, I don't think you'd make much money.

North Star

05 May 2004, 04:52 PM

Why did they build the Burn football stadium way out in Frisco? They should have built it in downtown Dallas.

freewaytincan

05 May 2004, 05:05 PM

Why did they build the Burn football stadium way out in Frisco? They should have built it in downtown Dallas.

No stadiums in downtown, seriously. Is anyone even listening?

05 May 2004, 05:07 PM

Relax urban...geesh.

It is also called incentives.

rjlevins

06 May 2004, 07:34 PM

I think the move to Frisco was very smart for the Burn. What type of people typically would go see a soccer game? Hispanics (really not being racist) and the soccer families of the suburbs. If yall remember, they originally wanted to put it in McKinney, but McKinney couldn't afford it. I think the Burn are hoping that moving to the suburbs, will attract the middle class families who have that extra money to spend. I played soccer all my life and know that most of my teammates and those I played against lived in North Dallas/Collin County. Heck, that area is probably the most soccer-friendly middle class area in Texas. Sorry, just had to defend their decision cuz i thought it was smart.

On the Frisco note of the DART, I honestly can't think of an effect way to get the DART to them. It was suggested above about a line going from DFW up through McKinney. Sure, that'd be nice for Collin County residents, but I would prefer DART to be used as a weapon to almost force people to go through Dallas. I want them to have to go down to Dallas and then switch onto another rail to get to DFW. My number one wish is to see as many areas in the city of Dallas as possible get access to the rail. Plus, I just dont' see Frisco as an important stop for DART...not yet. On the long term plan, sure...i'd like to see all the cities included. My hometown is Allen, and yeah...DART will prob be extended up there at some point, but I'm not so lazy as to not just drive down 2 miles and get on at Parker. It still saves me quite a drive in traffic.

psukhu

07 May 2004, 02:48 AM

-Frisco. One at the Stonebrair Centre/ballpark/Star Center area and the other one at the new football stadium.

This won't happen until 1) They give 1% of their sales tax to the DART pot. Right now they use that 1% to attract economic development. 2) They would first put buses in and then study the need for a rail. That might take at least ten years. 3) They would have to wait in line behind places like Irving, Addison, Rowlett and Carrollton.

-Arlington. At the Ballpark/Six Flags/Hurricane Harbour area.

It would be nice, but I think it wouldn't happen for a while for the reasons I listed above. The question I have is: What does Arlington use the extra 1% sales tax for? (economic development like Frisco and Allen?)

-Fort Worth. TCU, Stockyards, Sundance Square.

Hopefully they'll include this as part of their starter rail system.

-Wherever they build the new Cowboys stadium.

The is 100% since they only possible sites are downtown and Las Colinas.

drumguy8800

07 May 2004, 06:45 PM

tamtagon

07 May 2004, 07:04 PM

In addition to rail from NE Tarrant County to job centers (Alliance, Las Colinas, CBD - edit: and Fort Worth CBD), I think extending the current DART line from Plano to McKinney AND including a new line, CBD-Love Field-Galleria-Frisco-McKinney is ultimately important. Aggressive rail expansion into expected population centers is vital to the success of the existing job centers. Through a regional transit system, bedroom communities live up to the label without the distraction of courting non-service industy office jobs. Dallas' CBD should be the destination for many many more than 125,000 workers.

Lakewooder

07 May 2004, 07:50 PM

There's not really a rail corridor along that route, is there? What could they do, piggyback on the Tollway?

pariah

07 May 2004, 08:49 PM

either they would have to go underground for quite a ways or some kinda piggy back thing, which i am sure would never get off the ground. one i am not sure how you would do it, two the Parkies would hate an elevated train running through the area, three i bet the NTTA would fight it. despite my negative feelings i still hope it happens at some point. i think the corridor is prime for it, stations could be something like, oak lawn area, lemmon ave, lovers ln, preston center/NW hwy, after that i am not sure where till you get to the Galleria/Lincoln Center area. after the Galleria above ground is fine and there could be stations all over the place

Lakewooder

07 May 2004, 11:21 PM

Oh, you could send it up Preston Rd. . . LOL

texcolo

08 May 2004, 12:36 AM

I could use a station right out my front door.

drumguy8800

08 May 2004, 02:13 AM

If it is built, there will not be a station built in the Park Cities.. I think that's pretty much the general consensus. I have a feeling that the rail (if built) would be a subway, then become elevated at Harvest Hill (I think thats the name of it.. right before 635..).. and then it would go THROUGH the Galleria! (indoors station.. wishful thinking..) and then once it hits Addison, become at-grade.. then continue north at grade through Plano. I wonder how far it would go.

psukhu

08 May 2004, 02:34 AM

I think that rail should just stay out of Frisco period. Sure, it'd be great, but it at least shoudln't be included in the next 2030 plan. If it is, it would only encourage northern growth. The places they put the rail in have (and will) experience much higher growth rates than other areas (both commerce and homes..) so we need to place the rail within Dallas and the innerburbs, where development is NEEDED, and not expand them out to places like Plano, Allen, and McKinney, because people would skip living in an innerburb or within Dallas because they have rail service no matter how far out they go...

But, them doing this wouldn't be very good for profit.. and i think the profit motive might be a higher priority than the anti-sprawl motive...

Take a look at some of the older cities with large commuter rail systems. They have rural stations that did not promote hoigh growth. There are lines leading out of London and NYC into the countyside with stations in what looks like the middle of nowhere. These lines did encourage growth, even though these metros have a shortage of space.

http://www.lirr.org/lirr/html/lirrmap.htm

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/images/lon-con.gif

drumguy8800

08 May 2004, 02:45 AM

That London map is so confusing. Imagine that as Dallas.. in 30 years.. or maybe 130.. :cool:

pariah

08 May 2004, 03:47 AM

well drumguy i guess it would have to stop before frisco since they don't want to chip in

pariah

08 May 2004, 03:53 AM

well since they are gonna put 6 tollway lanes under LBJ, why doesn't DART jump in there and work out some deal where they can run and east/west line somehow. kind of a North Dallas Cross town that could connect from the RED line to the hypothetical tollway line. or maybe i am smoking something

rjlevins

08 May 2004, 06:53 PM

pariah

08 May 2004, 07:00 PM

they talked about it all over the news last week, supposed to start in 2006

F4shionablecHa0s

08 May 2004, 07:35 PM

The London Tube is an enlightening experience. It's over 100 years old, the oldest subway system in the world, and it still runs effectively in the very same tunnels that were excavated a century ago.

Something great about the Tube is they have real time LED screens in the stations that tell you when the next train will arrive, to the minute. I see that DART is trying to do something like that, but in most cases you can see or hear the train coming long before you learn anything from the "Next Train This Track" message.

The stations in London are absolutely EVERYWHERE. When I was in the city there was not a single place I needed to go that didn't have a subway station close by. The system has got a ridership of over 3 million people a day!

They say that a twenty minute ride on the Tube is the same as smoking a cigarette. I say, lung damage is a small price to pay for public transit nirvana.

bloodandpopcorn

08 May 2004, 08:21 PM

Are there "Next Train This Track" messages now? That's awesome. I've always wanted DART to do that. Now I hope they will do, like they do in London, give how many minutes you must wait until the next train comes. It's great for budgeting time.

brady

31 May 2004, 09:14 PM

31 May 2004, 09:25 PM

Thanks and welcome to the forum brady.

freewaytincan

31 May 2004, 11:03 PM

I grew up in D/FW and now live in the DC area. They've got digital screens here as well. They scroll through which line is coming, how long until it gets here, and how many cars (4 or 6) it is.

-brady

www.wmata.com is metro's webpage, it could use a facelift!

Aw, shut up, and thanks for using OUR FEDERAL TAXDOLLARS!

Heh, just kiddin'. At least it can serve as a national model. Welcome!

CTroyMathis

01 June 2004, 04:29 AM

Brady, welcome to the forum!

bshiker

01 June 2004, 09:44 AM

Urban,

I think I have mentioned this on the board before, but the idea that the DC subway is so nice only because of disproportionate amounts of federal money is a little untrue. Granted, the system was funded by federal money, but this was not done any differently then other transit program. Second, it actually has the second highest rate of self-support (somewhere in the low to mid 80% range), behing only NYC. Third, the money to build the initial system came becuase local leaders refused to let interstate highways bisect the city like interstates did in so many other cities. Instead, DC was able to convince Congress to pay DC the same money for the subway instead of the interstates in the city core. Fourth, much of metro's budget comes not from the DC government but from the states of Virginia and MAryland.

tamtagon

01 June 2004, 11:56 AM

Instead, DC was able to convince Congress to pay DC the same money for the subway instead of the interstates in the city core. Fourth, much of metro's budget comes not from the DC government but from the states of Virginia and MAryland.

I wish DART, Fort Worth T, and Denton County T/A folks could get their hands on some of the highway construction money, and I wish the state would budget pubilc transportation investment for it's cities. DART's 2020 goal could be done in half the time. Gov Perry's initiation high speed passenger rail service between Texas cities is great, but people must be able to get around the destination city without a car.

drumguy8800

02 June 2004, 06:54 PM

The feds should have a contest.. to see what city can get the highest percentage of recycling in their city in one year. at the end, when all the numbers are in, the city that wins gets a huge chunk of transportation money. Right now Dallas is a 2%, San Diego is at 40%. Talk about initiative.

Foucault

03 June 2004, 06:14 PM

I don't like the idea of a contest for tax dollars like that...no one in Dallas would care, anyway...

brady

03 June 2004, 07:16 PM

Another important point about the DC area is downtown/northern virginia have a lot of federal buildings. the DC and virginia gov't cannot tax those properties. So DC especially has a lot lower tax potential per square foot than say in downtown dallas. So it's fairly routine in DC for the federal government to subsidize stuff here since the fed gov't has an unusually high percentage of property here.

-brady