San Antonio's population

[drumguy8800]

Has anyone seen San Antonio's growth estimates? Currently, the city of San Antonio has 44,000 less people than Dallas does. Is it supposed to surpass us...? This would of course push us, sadly, to the 9th position in our country's top 10.

[CTroyMathis]

Really a big deal? No, not to the rest of the US. But, it will be for city boosters in SA and other Texas cities w/contempt or hatred of Dallas - whether unfounded, naive, or for other personal or civic reasons.

Would this be the first time SA had more people w/in city limits? No. But, probably the last time Dallas will have more.

Louisville, Kentucky went from being barely larger than Plano to being the nations #16 city virtually overnight in January '04.
Should Boston shudder because Louisville, Kentucky is larger? No.

Should Philadelphia tremble because Phoenix is larger? No.

It's all just numericalbabble.

[CTroyMathis]

Oh, and I like San Antonio. So, good for them and any other Texas metro's & city's growth. Just keep it sustainable, all! ;)

[bloodandpopcorn]

Is San Antonio's growth due to annexation or purely due to new residents?

[drumguy8800]

The cities of Houston, San Antonio, and Fort Worth are all three gaining the majority of their population by annexation and shear city size. San Antonio is in between 400-500 sq. mi. and houston is well over 500. In comparison, I believe that Dallas is 380 sq. mi. I'm positive its below 400 though. Dallas can't really annex any more good land.. They can annex areas south near Wilmer, Hutchins, and Seagoville.. but those areas will probably never experience tremendous growth like we see elsewhere. Dallas has the highest density out of Houston and San Antonio- San Antonio has the lowest, and Houston is a good 500 ppsm less than Dallas is. I know that San Antonio has choked off most of its suburbs like Universal City.. so, there are no true "outer" suburbs in San Antonio- only ones like Highland Park (in situation, not stature..) Dallas is very unique in that it is surrounded (almost entirely) by other suburbs, and then those suburbs are surrounded by other suburbs.. which are surrounded by other suburbs.. and so on.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Ah, well, then, I agree. Let it grow. I think more important than sheer size of a city is the density of a city. In that regard, is Dallas even in the top 10?

[CTroyMathis]

The more globally-recognized term would be metro or urbanized area. Not city limits. That's been obvious for about a century - give or take a decade. Scales measuring metros/urbanized areas don't have to contend with political boundaries and paint a more vivid snapshot.

If the 'important term' was city limits, then:
beautiful and world-reknowned Sydney, Australia only has around 25,000 citizens. That's it.

[CTroyMathis]

But, at the same time - look at all that tax money going into the central city (SA or HOU) thanks to annexation and healthy pop. increases! Good for the coffers for sure, though.

Just keep that sustainablity in check! ;) (I said that already, heh.)

[drumguy8800]

If the 'important term' was city limits, then:
beautiful and world-reknowned Sydney, Australia only has around 25,000 citizens. That's it.

Wow. That's pretty amazing.

[CTroyMathis]

Oh, B&P, I doubt any city in Texas touches the top 25 (in density) even. But, there may be some pretty hefty census tracts somewhere in Dallas that may make a solid showing. Never really added it up. Same could probably be said for some other Texas cities, going by tracts.

[drumguy8800]

Some areas of Manhattan have around 56,000 ppsm, I believe. The densest Dallas population area is Mockingbird at NCX (or at least around there..) with 22,000 ppsm.

[CTroyMathis]

Manhattan surely has a higher number than 56K. At least I'd think so. :)

San Francisco has several tracts approaching 100K

A net acquaintance's website:
http://www.sfcityscape.com/essays/density_chart.html

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=4 width=480 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=3>Census Tracts with Population Densities Greater Than 25,000 Per Square Mile</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut width=60 bgColor=#eeeeee>TRACT</TD><TD class=cut width=320 bgColor=#eeeeee>NEIGHBORHOOD</TD><TD class=cut width=60 bgColor=#eeeeee>DENSITY</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>122</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Tenderloin (Post/Leavenworth/Ellis/Van Ness)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>99085</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>125</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Tenderloin (Ellis/Powell/Market/Leavenworth)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>96588</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>114</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Chinatown (Pacific/Kearney/Clay/Stockton)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>96212</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>119</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Nob Hill (California/Stockton/Bush/Leavenworth)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>91982</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>123</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Tenderloin (Post/Powell/Ellis/Leavenworth)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>87394</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>113</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Chinatown (Pacific/Stockton/Calif./Powell/Washington/Mason)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>81600</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>120</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Nob Hill (Bush/Leavenworth/Post/Van Ness)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>79440</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>107</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>North Beach (Columbus/Pacific/Mason)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>77178</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>118</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Chinatown (Clay/Kearney/Calif./Stockton)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>72672</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>121</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Nob Hill (Bush/Powell/Post/Leavenworth)</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>72125</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>106</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>North Beach</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>62014</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>111</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Polk Gulch</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>61088</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>108</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Russian Hill</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>57000</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>110</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Polk Gulch</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>54663</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>208</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>54600</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>112</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Nob Hill</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>53623</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>229.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>50663</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>163</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Hayes Valley</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>49141</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>202</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>49111</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>109</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Polk Gulch</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>48452</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>229.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>47177</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>228.03</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>47073</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>124</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Civic Center</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>46789</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>207</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>42398</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>131</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Pacific Heights</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>40419</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>209</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>40413</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>210</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>39991</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>103</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Russian Hill</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>38971</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>159</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Western Addition-Fillmore</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>38565</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>166</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Haight-Ashbury</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>37932</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>104</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Telegraph Hill</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>37092</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>201</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Mission/SOMA</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>36860</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>161</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Western Addition-Fillmore</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>36762</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>168</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Lower Haight</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>35678</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>151</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Cathedral Hill</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>35588</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>260.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Excelsior</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>35571</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>152</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Western Addition</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>35385</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>165</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Western Addition-North of Panhandle</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>35317</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>158</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Western Addition-Fillmore</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>35236</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>427</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Outer Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>34031</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>451</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Inner Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>34013</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>253</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Bernal Heights</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>33201</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>477.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Outer Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>32986</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>301.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>UCSF</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>32904</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>605.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Visitacion Valley</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>32846</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>301.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Inner Sunset</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>32750</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>260.03</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Excelsior</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>32389</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>264.04</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Visitacion Valley</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>32211</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>229.03</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>32049</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>164</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Western Addition-Alamo Square</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>31592</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>160</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Cathedral Hill</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>31656</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>260.04</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Excelsior</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>31328</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>171</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Cole Valley</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>31038</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>263.03</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Crocker Amazon</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>30810</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>135</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Pacific Heights</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>30644</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>263.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Excelsior</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>30625</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>352.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Outer Sunset</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>30384</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>426</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Outer Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>29268</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>452</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Inner Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>29236</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>264.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Visitacion Valley</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>29164</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>203</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Castro/Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>29120</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>477.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Outer Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>29015</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>130</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Cow Hollow</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>28483</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>264.03</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Visitacion Valley</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>28359</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>230.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Bayview</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>28071</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>302.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Inner Sunset</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>27832</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>215</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Outer Mission</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>27781</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>155</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Western Addition-Japantown</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>27412</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>260.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Excelsior</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>27059</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>129</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Marina</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>26789</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>476</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Outer Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>26754</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>134</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Pacific Heights</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>26752</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>254.01</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Bernal Heights</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>26571</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>256</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Excelsior</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>26535</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>312</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Ingleside</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>26522</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>401</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Inner Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>26512</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>264.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Visitacion Valley</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>25843</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>167</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Buena Vista</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>25689</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>230.03</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Bayview</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>25494</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>156</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Inner Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>25188</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>402</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Inner Richmond</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>25183</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>254.02</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>Bernal Heights</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#eeeeee>25124</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>326</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>Outer Sunset</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>25015</TD></TR><TR><TD bgColor=#003333 colSpan=3></TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2>Population of Tracts Denser Than 25,000 Per Square Mile</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>389964</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2>Population of San Francisco</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>776733</TD></TR><TR><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff colSpan=2>Percentage of Population in Tracts Denser Than 25,000 Per Square Mile</TD><TD class=cut bgColor=#ffffff>50.21%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[rantanamo]

When I was at UT, San Antonio was going through their annexation period. As a demography student we followed this daily. SA's population actually jumped from like 950,000 to over Dallas' overnight in '98 or '99. Then by the next census Dallas caught up with them again. I agree that they can have that spot if they want. I'd rather grow dense and sustainable, and that's not the direction of SA proper despite what the SA forumers on SSP would lead you to believe. They are having the same serious northern sprawl monster that Dallas experienced last decade. If they are smart they will catch this now through zoning or they'll end up with Schertz or New Braunfels as their Plano.

[ComingtoHouston]

I have to admit that i like the way Dallas is structured better than any other city in Texas, well, i've never been to San Antonio but Dallas is compact and therefore it has a better "feel" to it. I wish Houston would try to do some of the things that Dallas does such as more shopping, more pedestrian friendly places, and less sprawl. People don't realize that sprawl takes away from the city's identity. It seems that whatever Dallas wants, Dallas will get and ultimately will outdo Houston.

[drumguy8800]

Dallas is compact

Where do you live? Have you never ventured to Frisco? Sure.. a lot of Dallas.. in the center, is moderately dense.. and the whole of Dallas (proper) is not what we would consider "sprawl.." especially when compared to Frisco, but Dallas, as a whole, is by no means compact. Sure, we may be more compact than any other city in Texas.. maybe even any other city in this region of the US- but Dallas is no where near as dense as it needs to be, or as dense as it is going to get as the children of the suburbs move to Dallas to experience an urban lifestyle.


I wish Houston would try to do some of the things that Dallas does such as more shopping, more pedestrian friendly places, and less sprawl. People don't realize that sprawl takes away from the city's identity. It seems that whatever Dallas wants, Dallas will get and ultimately will outdo Houston

I agree with this :D.. Dallas does have a buncha new pedestrian oriented spots.. and tons more shopping.. and does have a better "feel" to it. But, I still would hesistate to call the city compact. I would NEVER call the area compact. Ugh. We're all the way up to highway 380 now..

[F4shionablecHa0s]

No where did he talk about D/FW or the metroplex. Dallas proper is all that is really relavant as far as this thread is concerned.

DFW metro is still #1 in Texas. Yeah, baby!

[gc]

hey drummy...that was a compliment...say thank you first before you challenge the post....geesh! by the way drummy..have you ever spent time in Houston?

Dallas proper is huge and Houston proper is huger (I know it is not a word)...so in a sense Dallas is more compact than Houston. While I agree that there are some things that Dallas does better than Houston, the opposite is certainly true. I am not as intimately familiar with Houston as I am with Dallas so I not sure whether I agree or disagree with your statements...

[drumguy8800]

No where did he talk about D/FW or the metroplex. Dallas proper is all that is really relavant as far as this thread is concerned.

I figured that he meant the Dallas area as a whole. When I talk about the Houston area, I'm gonna say Houston.. not Sugarland or something. Just like someone would say that DFW airport is in Dallas- not Grapevine and Irving. I explained that the area is sprawly, but Dallas is not right here:


and the whole of Dallas (proper) is not what we would consider "sprawl.." especially when compared to Frisco, but Dallas, as a whole, is by no means compact.

The first Dallas means the city, the second "Dallas, as a whole" means the area. Its tough when differentiating between municipality and area.


hey drummy...that was a compliment...say thank you first before you challenge the post....geesh! by the way drummy..have you ever spent time in Houston?

Do you mean a compliment to Dallas? I know. I complimented Dallas too in the post, I just said that we have a ways to go. Specifically, the area has a long way to go.. The City of Dallas does too, even if its way denser than the suburbs. I even posted this huge semiarticle in another thread about how the city of Dallas isn't "sprawl" and I got yelled at. So. Sorry 'bout that.

And no, I haven't spent much time in Houston. Been there once or twice, but I was too young to care.

[gc]

I was just giving you a hard time...fugettaboutit

[aceplace]

But, at the same time - look at all that tax money going into the central city (SA or HOU) thanks to annexation and healthy pop. increases! Good for the coffers for sure, though.


Troy, there's another way to look at it.

When a municipality like San Antonio baloons up its population by annexing its own sprawl, it is making its finances worse. A low density neighborhood outside of a municipal boundary does not generate enough money in taxes to pay for the level of municipal services you'd find in the adjacent city, so the annexation lowers the per capita spending.Typically, these extra-municipal settlements simply go without many of the municipal services people in the city enjoy.

Now if Dallas were to deannex low-paying neighborhoods, it would have the wherwithal to actually improve the infrastructure in the areas that remain. The sparsely populated neighborhoods would no longer bring down the average tax revenue per acre.

Suburbs like Frisco and Allen are probably desperate to bring in as much businesses as possible to subsidize the residential neighborhoods. If Dallas were to consist of dense residential neighborhoods that pay their own way, it could afford to cut non-residential taxes down to the actual cost of the services they consume, and attract business back to the center city.The benefit to the people would be the shorter commute, and the greater availability of work opportunities.

[ComingtoHouston]

OK Dallas is not compact but i was really comparing it to the city limits of Houston. Dallas is a giant compared to Denver, CO which is Colorado's largest city. Both cities (Houston and Dallas) have the same pace but i am a little disapointed that Houston just seems to be slightly behind the 8 ball to Dallas.While Houston is getting it's first light rail, Dallas gets victory center. :cheers:

[Foucault]

Dallas gets victory center.
Interesting statement. Is it in storage someplace? Because I'm a resident of Dallas and I still haven't seen any Victory development.

[drumguy8800]

Interesting statement. Is it in storage someplace? Because I'm a resident of Dallas and I still haven't seen any Victory development.

You haven't? Oh. That's right. The AAC and the Victory DART station and the beginning of the W Hotel and FIRST EVER Residences don't exist. I forgot..

The Victory Development is making tons of progress, and now that everything is being pretty much revamped by the development compnay, things are certainly moving forward. If you haven't seen the updated plans.. go here (http://www.victorydallas.com). I know the project seemed like it wasn't gonna come a while back.. but the project is in full swing.

[Quiz03]

everyone would be more excited if they saw some kind of building there besides the arena

[psukhu]

I think the there are two key factors:

1) Metro Population
2) Core city density

(look at NY, SF, Boston, etc)


We know that DFW is the largest Texas metro by far.

Does anyone have the density numbers for the larger Texas municipalities?

[rantanamo]

patience oh citizens of Dallas, for Victory is on its way. If they can't do it all themselves, someone will take the land off their hands for a good price. That's what great location can do for you.

[drumguy8800]

I figured them recently with data from the DMN's 'Tipping Point' report: Here's what I found..

1. Dallas
Pop. in 2000: 1,188,580
Sq. mi: 342.6 mi²
Density: 3469.294 ppsm

2. Houston
Pop. in 2000: 1,953,631
Sq. mi: 579.5 mi²
Density: 3371.236 ppsm

3. San Antonio
Pop. in 2000: 1,144,646
Sq. mi: 407.6 mi²
Density: 2808.258 ppsm

[gc]

everyone would be more excited if they saw some kind of building there besides the arena

It won't be long now...

[Foucault]

When it's finished, I'll believe it: foundation-laying is not always followed by a building. For example, Lone Star...
Thus, a city-financed arena, an unopened DART station, and a building's beginning - not necessarily followed, mind you, by an end - do not, to me, qualify as private, urbane, development. When I see it, I'll believe it. But I'm not seeing anything right now...

[rantanamo]

^Isn't that more than a little cynical. Mind you, demolition of the power plant and subsequent construction on the W started only 1 year late. This is why I've never understood the element of Victory cynics out there. Before Victory was even scheduled to begin all you'd see were people saying "I don't see anything around the arena". I've heard people even say, "I told you there would be no new bridge(Woodall Rodgers extension) Patience, what do you expect a multi-billion dollar project to pop up overnight? You're talking about something that even at a fast pace would take over a decade. Don't put unrealistic standards on a project if you don't like it or are cynical about. For this reason, I hope and pray the Cowboys significantly scale back their project and the expectations for it, because Dallasites tend to have unrealistic expectations.

[drumguy8800]

amen, rantanamo. Projects would commence a lot quicker if funding was more readily available as well... but, as Dallas has no magic-money tree, this is impossible.

[Foucault]

It's called taxation.

[GuerillaBlack]

I figured them recently with data from the DMN's 'Tipping Point' report: Here's what I found..

1. Dallas
Pop. in 2000: 1,188,580
Sq. mi: 342.6 mi²
Density: 3469.294 ppsm

2. Houston
Pop. in 2000: 1,953,631
Sq. mi: 579.5 mi²
Density: 3371.236 ppsm

3. San Antonio
Pop. in 2000: 1,144,646
Sq. mi: 407.6 mi²
Density: 2808.258 ppsm
Sorry to bring this thread back up, but some new information. Houston is actually denser than Dallas by about 200 psm.

SA also has plans to annex some more land by 2009.

[gc]

Why are we responding to this thread 4 years later?

[GuerillaBlack]

Why are we responding to this thread 4 years later?
It's called an update. And besides, why would you PM, then post in this thread asking the same question?

[gc]

It's called an update. And besides, why would you PM, then post in this thread asking the same question?

GB,

This thread is about San Antonio's population....Not about how much more dense Houston is than Dallas....despite previous attempts to derail.

[GuerillaBlack]

GB,

This thread is about San Antonio's population....Not about how much more dense Houston is than Dallas....despite previous attempts to derail.
I just saw something old and outdated, and decided to give an update. As well as news about SA getting ready to annex more land by 2009.

[gc]

I just saw something old and outdated, and decided to give an update. As well as news about SA getting ready to annex more land by 2009.


Okay. Thanks for helping out.

[tamtagon]

Sorry to bring this thread back up, but some new information. Houston is actually denser than Dallas by about 200 psm.

SA also has plans to annex some more land by 2009.

It would be great if you could post the updated population/area data.

[GuerillaBlack]

1. Dallas
Pop. in 2006: 1,232,940
Sq. mi: 342.6 mi²
Density: 3,605.08/sq mi ppsm

2. Houston
Pop. in 2006: 2,144,491
Sq. mi: 579.5 mi²
Density: 3,701/sq mi ppsm

3. San Antonio
Pop. in 2006: 1,296,682
Sq. mi: 407.6 mi²
Density: 2,808.5/sq mi ppsm

So it may not be 200 ppsm, but 100 ppsm. Expect SA to drop over the coming years, as they are the only city with annexation plans that I know of.

[I45Tex]

Never realized SA was already geographically more extensive than Dallas. I was paying more attention to FW.

[totheskies]

Though all of the metros have a fair share of undeveloped land, San Antonio's military base makes this fact even more apparent. But the density of the inner city areas is quite high, possibly the highest in Texas.

[Spjz]

Though all of the metros have a fair share of undeveloped land, San Antonio's military base makes this fact even more apparent. But the density of the inner city areas is quite high, possibly the highest in Texas.As a current resident of SA's inner city and a former resident of Dallas' inner city, I assure you that it is not.

[VectorWega]

Though all of the metros have a fair share of undeveloped land, San Antonio's military base makes this fact even more apparent. But the density of the inner city areas is quite high, possibly the highest in Texas.

Huh? Hardly anyone lives in the urban core of San Antonio.

As for Houston, I just drove through there this past week and was no impressed by what I saw. Perhaps all of the development was on the otherside of downtown (from I-10), but the only high-rise developments I saw were stand alone buildings (development didn't seem to be concentrated) seperated from the downtown core. Not nearly as impressive as what I've seen going on in Dallas and Austin. That being said, I was only driving through and perhaps didn't get the full picture.

[ComingtoHouston]

Huh? Hardly anyone lives in the urban core of San Antonio.

As for Houston, I just drove through there this past week and was no impressed by what I saw. Perhaps all of the development was on the otherside of downtown (from I-10), but the only high-rise developments I saw were stand alone buildings (development didn't seem to be concentrated) seperated from the downtown core. Not nearly as impressive as what I've seen going on in Dallas and Austin. That being said, I was only driving through and perhaps didn't get the full picture.

I'll give you credit for acknowleding that you may have not seen everything but you were obviously only looking on one side of downtown. You should have taken a drive maybe on 59 on downtown's eastside. You would see a brand new park w/ restaurants, 2 new office towers under construction and a new residential highrise tower nearing completion. I-10 is in a different league of its own.

I think the developemnt in Dallas is phenominal but to be honest, alot of the new construction is on hold or cancelled because the market has to saturate and fill in some of the existing office space and residences. New construction of buildings that just sit empty for a long time may look good off the freeway but it really means nothing if it doesn't have the market to support it.

[AeroD]

I'll commend you for admitting that you may have not seen everything...

Jeez. "I'll commend you"??? That is silly politico talk.

[vman]

I was in Houston for the Thanksgiving holiday and saw several construction projects, although Dallas seems to have considerably more. And there's only one sizable project in Dallas I can think of that has been started and is sitting incompleted. I also agee with Wega, the new construction is very scattered and not very cohesive. On the plus side, what I did notice about Htown is that the surrounding downtown area is much more intact than it is here in Dallas. What I mean is, although Htown is funkier than Dallas, not as neat and tidy, there are no areas as rundown as Ross - Old East Dallas, Maple/Oaklawn or Fairpark, etc in the immediate downtown vicinity. At least not that I saw. I admit I didn't see everything...should I be commended?

[ComingtoHouston]

Jeez. "I'll commend you"??? That is silly politico talk.

i edited it for you mr picky picky


I was in Houston for the Thanksgiving holiday and saw several construction projects, although Dallas seems to have considerably more. And there's only one sizable project in Dallas I can think of that has been started and is sitting incompleted. I also agee with Wega, the new construction is very scattered and not very cohesive. On the plus side, what I did notice about Htown is that the surrounding downtown area is much more intact than it is here in Dallas. What I mean is, although Htown is funkier than Dallas, not as neat and tidy, there are no areas as rundown as Ross - Old East Dallas, Maple/Oaklawn or Fairpark, etc in the immediate downtown vicinity. At least not that I saw. I admit I didn't see everything...should I be commended?


Again, not jabbing at Dallas but the number of cranes means nothing in an already overbuilt market. That’s part of the reason Victory Park Projects is either stalled or sitting vacant. It just can’t support it right now in the economy’s current status. Dallas does not and I repeat does NOT have more construction projects than Houston. Counting everything inside the loop, TMC alone is probably the most fastest thriving urban area in the state, Uptown, and this is not even including all those projects currently under construction downtown and those in Memorial City. It seems that Dallas has more U/C because most of Dallas’s construction is happening in the center of the city. Houston's not exactly taking a nap in its city center either. Keep in mind, Houston's last major downtown boom was 20-30 years ago. Dallas's time is now.

But then again, I apologize, this thread is about San Antonio. I just felt that I had to clear a few things up.

[Trae]

Huh? Hardly anyone lives in the urban core of San Antonio.

As for Houston, I just drove through there this past week and was no impressed by what I saw. Perhaps all of the development was on the otherside of downtown (from I-10), but the only high-rise developments I saw were stand alone buildings (development didn't seem to be concentrated) seperated from the downtown core. Not nearly as impressive as what I've seen going on in Dallas and Austin. That being said, I was only driving through and perhaps didn't get the full picture.

Like C2H said, you should have driven on 59 South. Then, go 610 north to I-10 and take I-10W. There has to be [b]at least[/i] 20 cranes on I-10W alone. There is a group of five right on the corner of I-10 and Barker Cypress alone.

[tamtagon]

One of my best friend lives in downtown San Antonio, on the Plaza de las Islas, and as far as I'm aware, the downtown SA is residential population is substantial and growing.