DART: C-Cars & Station Modifications

[CTroyMathis]

New rail cars may join DART family

09:40 PM CDT on Saturday, April 10, 2004
By TONY HARTZEL / The Dallas Morning News
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/localnews/columnists/thartzel/stories/041104dnmetroadrunner.3f8c6.html



Change may be on the way for DART's classic yellow trains. For its next expansion, Dallas Area Rapid Transit is considering a different version of the light-rail vehicles that have plied city streets since 1996. The yellow-and-white décor would remain, but passengers would notice several major differences if the new cars hit the streets.

The vehicles, known in transit circles as C cars, would be specially made additions to DART's existing light-rail cars. (Think of a special segment that could be added to convert a two-door coupe to a four-door sedan.)

The DART board of directors could decide by fall whether to order the vehicles. The new cars, which have not been used by other agencies, would start running along light-rail tracks by 2009.

If the cars are installed on DART's fleet, passengers would no longer have to navigate steps to enter the new rail car section. The C car floor is virtually even with the rail platforms, but the transit agency would have to make some modifications to existing stations.

Eliminating the steps up into the rail car would make it easier for DART to comply with federal guidelines that encourage easy rail car access for people with disabilities. When DART ordered its first rail cars, companies were not making light-rail vehicles without inside steps. Instead, the agency built elevated blocks at each station that passengers with disabilities use to enter light-rail cars.

"This positions us to take advantage of the emerging technology and meet access standards," said DART spokesman Morgan Lyons.

But adding the C cars wouldn't provide as much seating capacity to two-car trains as would the addition of another full rail car.

Two-car trains that are expanded have about eight fewer seats than a regular three-car train. But DART also plans to run many three-car trains that feature the expanded rail vehicles, and those will have more seats than current three-car trains.

"This gives us more flexibility to adjust to capacity," said Tim McKay, DART's senior vice president for project management.

Each C car features 24 seats. Each of DART's 95 rail cars features 72 seats. If the C cars are used, the transit agency would be able to add seats back to the existing vehicles where passengers using wheelchairs currently ride, for a total of about 104 seats per expanded rail car.

Passengers will notice the difference when train service really needs more than one rail car but does not have enough riders for two cars. The C cars would add more seats to each train, requiring fewer riders to stand during their transit trip.

If purchased, the expanded rail cars would be spread throughout the DART system, not just on the new lines that will open around 2010.

Before three-car expanded trains could be used, DART would have to expand at least one downtown rail station platform to accommodate the longer trains. The St. Paul station can handle only existing three-car trains, and DART is negotiating with the city about how to extend the platform without adversely affecting car and truck traffic.

Lower cost is another plus of buying C cars, according to the transit agency. The C cars cost about $1 million, while a full light-rail car costs about $3 million. DART already is testing one of the C cars in use on the blue line from east Oak Cliff to Garland.

The agency estimates it would need 114 C cars when rail expands to places such as Fair Park, Rowlett, Carrollton and Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport. The cost would be $114 million, which compares favorably with the estimated $150 million cost for 50 new light-rail cars like those now in use.

About $22 million of the $36 million in rail car cost savings would have to be used to make changes to existing stations and the light-rail maintenance facility. The net result for the agency would be $14 million in savings.

[freewaytincan]

They'd better not look all Euro-Houston or something. Those suck.

[tamtagon]

The agency estimates it would need 114 C cars when rail expands to places such as Fair Park, Rowlett, Carrollton and Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.

It's nice to read stuff like that.

[patmns]

This is great news, does anyone know what the new cars will actually look like?

[CTroyMathis]

It is likely to be the same (or nearly the same) as that one low-floor SLRV DART uses.

[bloodandpopcorn]

is there more room for standing people in these middle sections than in a regular LRT car? That's a serious concern, too, because with this many more areas being served (allow for more attractions and people to easily visit old attractions), not to mention the fact most rush hour trains are already packed full of standing people anyway, insuring lots of comfortable standing room is pretty key. Standing in those little isles is a pain in the ass, especially when some moron thinks there is enough room for two people wide in them.

[texman]

i have a couple of pictures of those super low floor cars, how do you put photos on here?

[Foucault]

Below the text box in the Reply window there is a button called 'Manage Attachments'. I think it's pretty straightforward from there.

[Haretip]

My DART source is telling me that this article does refer to the "Two Rooms & a Bath" cars like current No. 170. They are a problem though, in that you can not run 3 car trains of them through downtown Dallas because the consist would block traffic at the cross streets. 3 together would be longer than the typical city block.

It would make more sense to use these cars when the downtown line is put in a tunnel. As I understand, stations on the new routes are being designed with C car lengths in mind.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Aren't many of the current stations designed with that in mind? I notice that Park Lane station is significantly longer than even the full 3-car trains right now.

[texman]

heres some photos of car 170, sharp looking, doesnt look as whimpy as single dart cars

[Haretip]

I am not familiar with the Park Lane Station, the extension to Galatyn and DT Plano or the Garland line. I was not working in Dallas during these extensions, but I suppose it is quite possible that these stations were designed with the longer cars in mind. As I recall, the stations that would have problems with the longer cars would be the downtown stations and CityPlace in the subway.

[RaStyyle]

DART SLRV (http://www.kinkisharyo-usa.com/index.html)

Click on the link above and then on the DART Dallas SLRV link. It shows the new model DART cars.













Disclaimer: This breaking news might be a couple of years late.

[RobertB]

DART SLRV (http://www.kinkisharyo-usa.com/index.html)

Click on the link above and then on the DART Dallas SLRV link. It shows the new model DART cars.

Disclaimer: This breaking news might be a couple of years late.
Even if not new, it's still cool. I didn't realize that the "super" cars aren't new cars, but a new *section* added to the middle of an existing car. KS claims that this will bring an operating savings of $1.6 million when all cars are converted, simply by making the boarding process quicker for those with disabilities (the driver won't have to jump out and fiddle with the wheelchair ramps).

That info is from the Flash animation. I scanned through the video, but it didn't give much additional information -- though it did have some great drivers-view shots of the train rolling through the tunnel! Also, the shot of Cityplace with a NYC-style crowd was pretty cool, if a bit fanciful. I'd like to see DART post a slideshow of pictures taken while chopping a car in half and inserting the new segment.

[texman]

I think we have another thread on this, but cool video.

[Random Traffic Guy]

simply by making the boarding process quicker for those with disabilities (the driver won't have to jump out and fiddle with the wheelchair ramps).

And the angels sang, and everybody who's ever made the plodding trip through downtown applauds. 42 minutes from GBT to Union Station is long enough without some screwing around with ramps. Plus making folks like me who hang out in the stairwells behind the driver move.

[saxman66]

Wow I didn't even realize this was going on. Anyone know any time frame when these new cars are coming around?

Chris

[texman]

I believe with the opening of all the new light rail lines.

[rantanamo]

Some of those already exist. I've ridden on some of them. The big difference is that the center entrance is at platform level, This eliminates the need for the ramps and pullout floor. The front/rear portions are at the same level as the "normal" trains.

[frankchitown]

I rode in one of those cars about a year ago, but had forgotten all about it. I always wondered why the DART rail wasnt platform level in the first place, but then again, our rail stops at intersections :rolleyes:

[RobertB]

I rode in one of those cars about a year ago, but had forgotten all about it. I always wondered why the DART rail wasnt platform level in the first place, but then again, our rail stops at intersections :rolleyes:
I wonder if the original considerations had to do with cost/benefit analysis. Think about the mechanics of the thing -- there's a lot of big motors under the cars, and you've got to put them somewhere. Smaller motors wouldn't be as powerful -- DART wanted 65mph capability -- and might cost more to boot. Building a car that tucks the motors away in the corner or something introduces complexities in construction and maintenance that increase cost.

Even the new SLRV has a problem -- it's BIG. DART didn't know in the beginning whether their ridership would support such large cars, so I imagine they decided to go with smaller cars for higher flexibility and lower cost. Plus, the elevated DART cars *look* like trains, unlike the all-ground-level designs on the KS site. I think this contributed to the perception of DART Rail as something new, different, and better than bus or car.

KS is clearly proud of DART, the "most successful" of their North American customers.

[CTroyMathis]

Thread link: 114 new C-Cars (Two Rooms & a Bath) possible for DART by 2009 (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2192)

[RobertB]

Thread link: 114 new C-Cars (Two Rooms & a Bath) possible for DART by 2009 (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=2192)
Thanks -- a merge would be great.

[CTroyMathis]

Okay, cool. Threads merged.

[dfwcre8tive]

This notice was advertised in Quick today:

St Paul Rail Station Renovations
Platform Reconstruction to Improve Access, Prepare for New Low-Floor Rail Cars

Beginning Monday, Nov. 19, you will notice work in progress at St. Paul Station. This process will be repeated at other downtown Dallas stations over the next several months and, when completed, will enable passengers with mobiilty impairments and others who now use the wheelchair lifts to board DART's light rail cars unassisted. We want you to exercise caution when traveling through these areas as we build for your future.

More information and construction updates will be available onboard your train, or you may visit www.DART.org or call 214.979.1111.

[GuerillaBlack]

Why couldn't DART order trains from the getgo in 1996 that wouldn't make the operator come out and lower the ramp, etc.

[Spade]

Eventually, all the stations on the Dart system that needs to raise it's platform will be raised, right?

[RobertB]

Eventually, all the stations on the Dart system that needs to raise it's platform will be raised, right?
Right, according to DART's special page on the [url=http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/constructionstpaulstation.asp]four-month conversion at St. Paul Station[url]:

Beginning Monday, Nov. 19, St. Paul Station will be the first in downtown Dallas to undergo a transformation designed to improve access, safety and train capacity throughout the system.

We will be raising the station platforms to accommodate level boarding of the new rail cars that will be delivered within the next few years. This will allow people with disabilities - plus others currently using the wheelchair lifts to board with strollers, bicycles and the like - to step or roll directly onto the train from the platform. The platform improvements also will enable us to operate longer three-car trains to meet our growing ridership.
The page details the construction timeline. Through January, it will be merely inconvenient at St. Paul Station. In January and February, the station will close altogether. The scenario will then repeat at Pearl and Akard stations. West End won't close -- there will be a "temporary station" established instead. I wish DART would move West End Station altogether, so that it's right by the West Bus Transfer Center. It's ridiculous to have to cross two lights to get from the bus to the northbound train.

As for "why didn't DART plan ahead", I'm sure it's all about the compromises required to get a system off the ground. Remember that DART's original plan was to single-track to Plano and Garland, but the Light Rail proved to be much more popular than expected. DART would have designed and ordered the rail cars based on their original, lower estimates. They opted for small cars that would provide more flexibility on the low end of the ridership scale. It's not poor planning... DART is simply a victim of its own success.

[CityLove]

Oh no...St. Paul Station will be closed for two months?! I don't like that at all.

[endymi0n]

I had a chance to speak to one of the DART engineers a few weeks ago, and she explained the scope of the project... she said that low-floor cars were just not available to DART at the time, and that they didn't want to make high platforms. I notice it also doesn't mention something she told the group I was with, which was that they might have to close it for as long as a month. When they do west-end station they'll make a temporary platform a block away.

[SDORN]

It's about to start.


http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/1509/stpaul1ma6.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[amshepar]

I hope the city is covering the losses incurred at subway/justmex,italian cafe. Otherwise they should file a class action against the City. JusMex you can't even tell if they are open or not. I don't think the Dallas wants to fight the Subway Corporation, even though its a franchise, franchising fees help pay for corporate lawyers.

[admonkey]

I hope the city is covering the losses incurred at subway/justmex,italian cafe. Otherwise they should file a class action against the City. JusMex you can't even tell if they are open or not. I don't think the Dallas wants to fight the Subway Corporation, even though its a franchise, franchising fees help pay for corporate lawyers.

I'm doing all I can, but I can only eat so much.

[palchik]

I hope the city is covering the losses incurred at subway/justmex,italian cafe. Otherwise they should file a class action against the City. JusMex you can't even tell if they are open or not. I don't think the Dallas wants to fight the Subway Corporation, even though its a franchise, franchising fees help pay for corporate lawyers.

FYI: DART is not a department of the City of Dallas. It's an independent agency.

[dfwcre8tive]

I rode on the elusive C car the other night and snapped a few photos (with my phone, low quality). Accessibility issues will improve a lot when these cars come into service.

[dfwcre8tive]

St. Paul Station opened back up this week for service. The platforms have been raised and they are just finishing a bit of brick work now. I wish they would have upgraded the ticket machines while they were at it.

[RobertB]

From DART: Pearl Station closes for a month (http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/constructionpearlstation.asp) starting Friday night 3/7/08.

[FoUTASportscaster]

The work at Saint Paul is just about done. They have extended the platforms into one lane each on St. Paul and Harwood. This is to allow handicapped access from the streets with the proper legal slope. Apparently, this wasn't done to accommodate the C-Cars.

[xen0blue]

this whole thing is so pointless, why are we spending millions of dollars to accommodate .15% of the population? political correctness?

If they are going to do construction, they should actually make it worth the hassle and just put in a frickin' subway, jeez...

[RobertB]

this whole thing is so pointless, why are we spending millions of dollars to accommodate .15% of the population? political correctness?
Three letters. A. D. A. (http://www.ada.gov/) Like it or loathe it, it's the law. I would submit that you'll go from "loathe" to "like" as you approach the other end of the Riddle of the Sphinx (http://www.jimloy.com/puzz/sphinx0.htm).

(That, plus the new cars hold more people, too.)

[palchik]

The new platform heights will allow all wheeled-vehicles (wheelchairs, strollers, BIKES!) quicker access to the new low-floor sections of the rail cars. This should also reduce delays, since the operator will no longer need to leave his cab to deploy a ramp...so actually everybody benefits!

[FoUTASportscaster]

this whole thing is so pointless, why are we spending millions of dollars to accommodate .15% of the population? political correctness?

If they are going to do construction, they should actually make it worth the hassle and just put in a frickin' subway, jeez...

Perhaps you should know what you are talking about before you begin ranting? Ever taken a bike or a baby-neice-in-a-stroller on the train? If you have, you know what a pain it is to do without platform assistance. Less pain means greater convenience wich means greater ridership.

Also, the trains have a higher capacity, meaning greater number of people can fit on the train, which depending on the circumstance can mean more fare-paying customers or less trains, two cars use less energy than three which means lower operating costs.

Now for those .15% of the population who do use a train you have ridden, you'll know the slowdown caused by the train operator getting out, lowering the platform, letting the person get on, raise the platform and get back in the operators area, then do it all again when the person wants off. Less hassles mean streamlined operations.

Plain fact of the matter is everyone benefits from raised platforms. I'd venture to bet you don't use the train much, or else you'd know what an improvement this is.

[GuerillaBlack]

^^Yeah, I have been on DART many times for that, and it just wastes time. Waiting for the operator to come out of his little house, lower the ramp, etc. Same thing when it is time to exit.

[Random Traffic Guy]

Note that with center-platform stations and the high platforms, you won't be able to cross the tracks at mid-platform anymore, it is too tall for a step down to the track-level crossing. I'm not sure how they are retrofitting ones like Union Station, but this is the new standard for the green line in Las Colinas etc.

[xen0blue]

^^Yeah, I have been on DART many times for that, and it just wastes time. Waiting for the operator to come out of his little house, lower the ramp, etc. Same thing when it is time to exit.

this is true, forgot about that. although when it does happen is VERY rare, i've only seen it once or twice my entire life.

[texcolo2]

this whole thing is so pointless, why are we spending millions of dollars to accommodate .15% of the population? political correctness?

If they are going to do construction, they should actually make it worth the hassle and just put in a frickin' subway, jeez...

Evidently you've never ridden a bike or had to move heavy furniture. Access ramps are a god send. I've delivered furniture to the Raulph Lauren Polo store in Highland Village... no access ramps AKA no fun at all.

[cowboyeagle05]

this is true, forgot about that. although when it does happen is VERY rare, i've only seen it once or twice my entire life.

I ride around 8 times a week long distance (Blue line Downtown Garland to Downtown Dallas) and the driver has to get out and let people in and out at the ramp about an average of 4 times on a trip one way. About an average of 2 of those trips has someone not disabled but carrying something whether rolling suitcase, or other heavy rolling device. Course my information is not scientific, but when the C cars are on every train will they tear down the ramps?

[GuerillaBlack]

I ride around 8 times a week long distance (Blue line Downtown Garland to Downtown Dallas) and the driver has to get out and let people in and out at the ramp about an average of 4 times on a trip one way. About an average of 2 of those trips has someone not disabled but carrying something whether rolling suitcase, or other heavy rolling device. Course my information is not scientific, but when the C cars are on every train will they tear down the ramps?
When I was last on there, it was some lady with a big laundry basket, and a baby in a stroller.

[palchik]

I ride around 8 times a week long distance (Blue line Downtown Garland to Downtown Dallas) and the driver has to get out and let people in and out at the ramp about an average of 4 times on a trip one way. About an average of 2 of those trips has someone not disabled but carrying something whether rolling suitcase, or other heavy rolling device. Course my information is not scientific, but when the C cars are on every train will they tear down the ramps?

Yea, the ramps are coming down. They removed them already at St. Paul Station when they raised the platform, but replaced them with temporary wooden ones until the C-cars arrive.

[Dbadger]

Nice,
I am glad these are finally being used.
They are great if you take your bike on the rail or if you are pushing a stroler.