Good Latimer Tunnel

[Justin Terveen]

Hello all..First off congrats on such a great site ..I've really enjoyed it so far. There are some great pics and opinions here , and i hope to contribute in the future.

Now ..on to a more pressing issue..I'm sure you're all familiar with the plan to fill in the Good Latimer Tunnel in Deep Ellum. I myself was destroyed when I first heard the news a year or so ago..There are just so many wonderful memories of this tunnel through out my adolescent and adult life..coming to Deep Ellum on the weekends when i didnt already live here...entering the tunnel from 75, being surrounded by works of art that have evolved through the years, and then emerging into Deep Ellum..rising out of the tunnel

I know they are planning to preserve as much as possible , but it still makes me sick to my stomach. I refuse to accept that there are no alternatives

Is there nothing we can do ?? How do you all feel ??
I know its just a matter of time. I spoke with DART about 30 mins ago, and its just pending eng. approval and some other things, Geotechnical I think.

I would love any pictures, links or just general feedback and or info

[boozo]

I've always love the art on the walls but I won't miss the tunnel when they fill it in. It has always been dark, cramped and a little unsafe due to the potholes inside of it.

I think rather than tell DART not to fill in the tunnel, why not ask them to keep all the art somehow in the new station?

Flat panel or walls that could be painted each year to keep the tradition going.

[Justin Terveen]

Well DART is going to preserve as much as they can, and there is no asking, its done pretty much a done deal

Potholes can be fixed, they just repaved Main and elm years back, and lighting could be added, but thats all trivial at this point.

these are just a few desperate crys being voiced from one who will miss the historical tunnel deeply and dearly
I can't stand to see it go. To me...you may as well knock down what use to be the coppertank or the tea room, or any other Part of Deep Ellum that we all love , and put up a giant friggin middle finger

Only time will tell.

[Columbus Civil]

Where were you a year ago?

[Justin Terveen]

Same place , same view, just not on this site. Im just seein what people think

[Foucault]

According to DART's studies, the Good-Latimer Tunnel, though an awesome site, is unsafe for both car and pedestrain traffic anyway, and not having an intersection with Gaston there would require razing of historic buildings. Whichever side of the tunnel the alternatives were built on would tear down buildings significant to the African-American community, and Dallas doesn't need any more negative publicity regarding African-Americans, that's for sure. A subway section is not viable because of lack of funding. DART will probably hire graffiti artists to decorate the station, if that cheers you up.

[RayM]

I live in Deep Ellum, and the tunnel is a nice gateway into the community. Visitors always remark at how "cool" it is when we drive through and want to stop and take pictures.

They're stopping to take pictures of the art, not the tunnel. The tunnel is an eyesore. I'm fairly sure that's why the art project was started in the beginning - to dress up an eyesore. The tunnel itself doesn't look so good these days - there are chunks missing, street alignment is bad (downright hazardous, especially for the confused "tourists") in the southbound entrance. DART (according to their own engineers, of course) have also said that the structure isn't in good enough condition to support rail traffic over it any longer.

The tunnel is also a hindrance to pedestrian traffic. It's dark, it stinks, and usually has a homeless man and/or his abode you have you step over. There are no sidewalks above the tunnel (which is the way I go if I'm walking down Good-Latimer).

I'm all for filling in the tunnel and providing a new signature gateway into Deep Ellum, preferably with the same artists' works repainted regularly. A gateway that is more inviting for pedestrians, especially since the DART station will be right there near the Latino Cultural Center. A gateway that is less confusing for motorists who aren't familiar with the area (it's fun to play "dodge the tourist SUV").

The tunnel does have some architectural/historical significance, but its design is far from unique and the historical significance can be retained in a new gateway.

As a side note, I feel sort of sorry for the residents of the Gaston Yard complex who have units facing the DART RoW there. I've heard the screeching the LRVs make when they make curves :)

[Columbus Civil]

Ray, are you still good with math?

[RayM]

Hrm... either I made some sort of obscure miscalculation in my above post and you're being sarcastic, or I know you CC. Or at least you might know me.

Shed some light for me?

[Columbus Civil]

Hehe..was making a reference to IRC :) You probably don't know who I am, though.

Sorry for being weird.

[RayM]

Okay, so I did my homework with your profile. I remember who you are! Wow, you've got the right Ray - although I'm baffled how you determined that :)

[Columbus Civil]

Educated guess! Red ox told me you lived in Deep Ellum.

[RayM]

It's great to hear from you. Send me email, and let's give Ninjatune back this thread.

/derail off

[CTroyMathis]

^ Small world. ;)



(Not my photo in attachment...)

[Foucault]

Wow! Cool picture. Do you have one of the other side?

[Justin Terveen]

I guess more than anything im just holding on to the memories..I just hate to see such key places go...but thats life,

And yes, I am happy with what DART is going to do, but that was never the point , I just hate to see it go wanted to rant for a little, thanks

[texman]

i dont understand, can anyone give me the technicals on why the tunnel has to be filled in the first place, cant they just bring the dart overpass supports through the top of the tunnel or somthing?

[aceplace]

Texman, the technical and social issues are fully explained in the DART Environmental Impact report at www.dart.org.

Essentially, the tunnel is in the way. It is also anti-pedestrian, and has the appearance of being unsafe --- a good place to get mugged if you're foolish enough to walk thru it.

Historic? Maybe. Old? Definitely. Inherently desirable as a pedestrian amenity? No way. Lots of art that must be preserved? Maybe, but the art is really an attempt to mitigate the stark ugliness and perceived danger of the tunnel.

DART will spend a million or two for an art exhibition area for local artists, as a replacement for the murals that will be lost. This is considerably more than their normal budget of fifty thou for station art.

[clipper]

This was all part of the "BIG LIE." They started out telling everyone that the tunnel couldn't support their trains. Ha. That tunnel was built to hold up steam locomotives pulling hundreds of cars of coal. When the Texas & Pacific Railroad built it, they even put a warehouse building on top of it which cars went under while trains went across. Turned out their decision has more to do with looks - they don't want that "grubby" old tunnel in the middle of their shiny new train set. It would have been just as easy to use the existing underpass and put the station on top, but that's not how we do things.

[gc]

Clipper, I hope you are incorrect. For DART to just tear it down just because is a travesty..

[clipper]

Yes, it will be easier for them to put the line in without the tunnel. But the notion that the tunnel couldn't support their trains and station was always just foolishness. When I was a wee kid we would go down there to see the ENTIRE TRAIN YARD AND BUILDINGS on top of that tunnel. When they built those apartments, they even found the remains of one of those huge round houses and turntables the steam locomotives used. The downtown area was crammed with train stuff in the old days. Indeed, where the Camden Farmers Market apartments are is where the first train came to Dallas in the 1870s - right there on Canton. For years there was a plaque on the warehouse buidling there that got torn down to build the apartments. It was the old Houston & Central railroad yard.

[Lakewooder]

Is the tunnel already gone ? I've been afraid to go see...


It still makes me sick they destroyed the one over by Newport's in the West End.

I still have happy memories of my Daddy driving us through there in the 60s and honking the horn. The tunnels seemed 'old timey' even then...

[tamtagon]

honking the horn....

That's about all I will miss when the tunnel is gone. Honk Honk, Deep Ellum, here we come.

[Justin Terveen]

Lakewooder: it's still there...will be for a little while longer

Clipper...I never knew that....And it really makes me question wether or not this is a structural issue....The communications I've had with DART are that it's not safe anymore , which I think is BS...concrete cures very slowly..the materials use in the construction of the tunnel are just now reaching their strongest point, however after that strong point, concrete begins to weaken.....so in short, there is no immediate threat , but say 20 years down the line we DO build on top with out filling it in and the un-thinkable happens .....I understand where they are coming from. but if they really wanted to implement the tunnel,they could..but at what cost....just fill the SOB up with concrete , give the people a cheesy memorial, bada bing bada bang.

Sad , but as said earlier " that's how we do thing's "

[clipper]

Well there was a concrete warehouse building full of merchandise, three or four tracks of steam trains and big trucks loading and unloadin on top of that tunnel. I think you could safely sit the Titanic up there and it wouldn't budge. You've got to remember in the old days they didn't have good engineering so they just guessed then DOUBLED the best estimate. And yes, you are indeed right. The older concrete gets the harder it is. That's why old grain elevators and such are pure hell to tear down.

[crescentboi]

Well what if they were to turn it into a "gallery" per say? Couldn't they close the street, make great steps/fountains/walkways down into the tunnel, add strong supports in the center of it to make it "Extra" strong for 20yrs down the road and add lighting? I think that would make it a destination unto itself, another museum almost. That would be best IMO, and I think pretty cool!

[Justin Terveen]

Clipper : my point was that concrete gets stronger with age , but at about the hundred year mark the curve begins to slope down,( " 20 years from now " ) and concrete becomes very brittle, and you may be completely right, maybe you could lay the titanic on it, but what do we know...once again, an easy excuse to fill it...like I said , there is no doubt in my mind that the tunnel could be implemented ....its just considered an eye sore and another expense

Crescentboi : Thats an awsome idea...I hope something of that nature will be done....DART is open for suggestion's ...they seem genuine in their attempt to honor the tunnel...I just hope its not all smoke......That would be great ..keeping it open just enough to walk thru...I mean c'mon, you can't tell me we couldn't come up with a design that allow's the tunnel to stay open where it could be toured, new lighting could be installed ...a shallow walkway.....hose all the urine out..fill in the rest ....just give us enough to be able to still paint each year and walk thru ( on either side )...Damn..that just might work....but the chances ????

I'll shoot my DART contact this thread..see how he responds

[bloodandpopcorn]

You could even charge like a $5 charge with it as a museum. Get some money to help clean up urine elsewhere in Deep Ellum.

[clipper]

Like Underground Atlanta they could have underground Deep Elum.

[mikedsjr]

Since I rarely even visit the Deep Ellum area, Im not sure that i can feel any passion for any building or bridge over there. I can certainly understand that a certain group of people would like that type of artwork. But as we know, if it is not considered a historical structure everything is fair game.

I've seen plenty of structures that i liked that fell in the name of "progress". Not everything is allowed to last forever and if it means doing something in the name of progress for ALL people, it probably is going to be done. 30 years from now, no one will even care. Not even you, if its gone.

[Justin Terveen]

I don't know about all that ...I know I'll certainly remember this place in 30 years, God willing.....And what makes a structure a historical marker...I think this spot would be a wonderful landmark ..I think clipper and some others would agree.....If preserved and restored it could be a wonderful place....And yeah, if we build over it then of course nobody will remember...But if we honor this location and make it an attraction then who knows ??

[Justin Terveen]

You could even charge like a $5 charge with it as a museum. Get some money to help clean up urine elsewhere in Deep Ellum.



:D LOL

[Lakewooder]

Well, just today on Channel 8 news they showed a picture of the old St Paul Hospital that was torn down in the late 1950s -- I was where Bryan Place is now. Beautiful building, I can't remember it but it's sickening they tore it down. There was a similar building nearby for Ursuline Academy -- and then all those huge mansions on Ross.

So, you just can't say it doesn't matter...

The Good-Latimer Tunnel is unique, it should be saved.

[Justin Terveen]

I completly and fully agree.....We have such a large city with plenty of room to grow....Things such as these should be cherished and protected

[dallastophoenix]

is there any way to successfully petition saving the tunnel?

[bloodandpopcorn]

Not if you want the DART line to happen on schedual. It's far too expensive. These are not good financial times, and sometimes you have to take the lesser of two evils. Sucessful rail public transportation that connections fair park to deep ellum to downtown to the rest of the transit system is more important than saving an old underpass with pretty graffitti. Artwork will return. Yes, it would be nice if this entry could be saved, but it's not the end of the world that it doesn't.

There very well be new federal regulations on what must be done to run trains over things like this, and to meet those regulations, costs might be insanely high. We don't know all of the details. DART does. They've thought of every option and this has to be done. Sometimes you just have to pick between two not-so-happy alternatives: no rail to those areas or no Deep tunnel.

[aceplace]

I see no value of any kind in saving that ugly tunnel. Just because it is an old structure does not mean it cannot be replaced by something better and safer and more useful.

City areas are constantly being rebuilt and upgraded... only those things that are unusually interesting or valuable should be retained... we don't want to be in a position of not being able to rebuild anything, because EVERYTHING is untouchable...

But if you really believe in the historic or architectural value of that tunnel... contribute a few million dollars toward the cost of preserving it.What, you don't have a few million dollars to preserve the tunnel? Then get all those hordes of people who love it to contribute toward its restoration. What, they don't want to? Then it will go, due to lack of support.

That's the bottom line... the tunnel will go due to lack of public support.

[Justin Terveen]

Damn aceplace...you didn't have to tell it like it is

Bloodandpopcorn made some great points....And yes its pretty much inevidable...but like we spoke about earlier, if we can keep it open ( 1/2 way ) and do somthing cool with it..then I'm all for it...because we can either bitch and protest the whole thing all together...and get nowhere...Or we can become as involved as possible in the new design and approach this in a tactful manor

To those who don't care , don't come...that's fine, to each his own......I myself personaly like oldler structure's , history and character....Not the soft lofts uptown or anything of that nature....but thats just me

For those of you who do care, if you want to donate a couple mill...more power to ya, or if you just want to share your ideas, thoughts or concerns just PM me and I'll give you info on who you need to contact.

[Justin Terveen]

And by the way aceplace, you say" the tunnel will go", well the tunnel is already gone, its a done deal, has been for a long time....what's not a done deal is what we can do with it....And as far as support, I clearly remember a community up in arms...when all this went down......Once the hammer drops, there's nothing else for us to say...or speak out on......all we can do is try to keep what we can, and be as positive as possible......There is plenty of support

[villain]

Any update on this project?

[texman]

There still planning on filling it...I think construction on DART's SE line starts in 2006. It'll be intresting sight when this is all being built.

[Justin Terveen]

*ppppt*

[Columbus Civil]

Gosh I can be a jerk sometimes.

[Justin Terveen]

LOL..what makes you say that?

[Justin Terveen]

.....

[Haretip]

I've got a copy of my survey report on the tunnel if anyone wants to see it. It's a word .doc file.

[Justin Terveen]

yes please....

[jsoto3]

Me too please . . .

[Tnekster]

Besides Good Latimer, what street will the train run down in Deep Ellum. It will be interesting to see the changes take place.

[texman]

Besides Good Latimer, what street will the train run down in Deep Ellum. It will be interesting to see the changes take place.
Its has its own right of way. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=dallas&ll=32.784727,-96.786461&spn=0.005182,0.007703&t=k&hl=en Look to the south of Good Latimer Tunnel and turn right. Before Elm Street.