East Dallas: City Lights Project

[JaeTex]

Retail planned for central city
Complex east of downtown will include a supermarket


11:52 PM CST on Tuesday, January 6, 2004

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

Developers have quietly tied up more than two blocks on downtown's east side for what would be the central city's largest retail development in years.

Located on Live Oak and Bryan streets at Interstate 45, the retail complex planned by Margaux Development Co. would contain about 350,000 square feet and be anchored by a supermarket.

The project would be called City Lights.

The developers have approached Kroger about locating in the project but are also talking to other potential grocery anchors, said Donald Silverman, managing partner of Margaux Development.

"We plan to deliver a 72,000-square-foot supermarket," said Mr. Silverman. "In the next 90 days, we think we will have all the big tenants we need tied down."

Construction would start in the fourth quarter and take about 18 months, he said.

The project will include more than 1,200 parking spaces, both surface and below-grade.

Margaux Development has a track record of suburban retail development with shopping centers in Keller, Crowley and Plano anchored by Kroger supermarkets.

In Roanoke, it developed a major center with Wal-Mart and Home Depot as the anchor tenants.

During the last year, the retail builder gained control of more than 11 acres across from the new Latino Cultural Center on Live Oak.

Many of the properties in the area are occupied by old car lots and commercial buildings.

But Mr. Silverman said residential growth in Dallas' central city makes the tract ideal for retail.

"In a three-mile radius, you have more than 200,000 people," he said.

"If that demographic was anywhere else in the metroplex, the retailers would be building 3 million square feet there."

Along with being visible from the elevated portion of I-45, the development site is on DART's proposed light-rail line to Deep Ellum, Baylor University Medical Center and southeast Dallas.

"The preliminary response we are getting from retailers has been very good," said Mickey Ashmore, president of United Commercial Realty, which is marketing the project to national and local merchants and restaurateurs. "Our demographics rival any of the best sites in Dallas, and this area is totally underserved."

So far, developers have not approached the city for any funding.

Mr. Ashmore said surveys show that almost 16,000 apartments are within one mile of the central business district.

"And it's growing every day," he said. "There is already a big demand for retailers for locations in the central city."

Several apartment and townhouse projects are under construction in the area between North Central Expressway and Live Oak, and additional units are planned.

Mr. Silverman said urban residential growth is driving the new retail, just as it does in the suburbs.

"The retailers are the easiest guys to sell on the concept," he said. "They have done it in Los Angeles, Chicago, Boston and Philadelphia."

Dallas' close-in locations have already seen a surge in activity from retailers. Wal-Mart Stores Inc. acquired a site on Hall Street at North Central Expressway for a Neighborhood Market grocery store, but the project has run into roadblocks at City Hall.

Drugstore chains CVS Corp. and Walgreen Co. have both opened stores on Ross Avenue just east of downtown. Drugstore and bank tenants are also looking at the former Red Cross Building site on McKinney Avenue.

Earlier this week, developers presented plans to the city for a 20,000-square-foot boutique grocery in downtown's historic Interurban Building, 1500 Jackson St.

The biggest shopping center built near downtown in recent years is the Cityplace East retail complex at Lemmon Avenue and North Central. It contains about 275,000 square feet of space, including a Target and Loews cinema.

Mr. Silverman said the Live Oak shopping center his firm is working on will be similar in layout to a suburban-style complex but with architecture that will complement the nearby Latino Cultural Center and residential development in the area.

"We're not kidding ourselves," he said. "We are not going to compete with West Village.

"What we are really trying to deliver is a suburban-type shopping center in an urban environment."

[JaeTex]

I was leery reading the whole thing, and then the very last sentence confirmed my worst fears. Suburban shopping in an urban environment. woo f-ing hoo.

That area near the LCC has good potential and they are going to fill it with a giant parking lot with some retail thrown in as well.

But then I am ultra-cynical lately. I suppose this new is more good than bad.

[Columbus Civil]

It will be good to have another grocery store in the area.

[tamtagon]

That part of town, between the CBD and Swiss Ave. could be considered one of the first suburban settings of Dallas, why not have a suburban strip mall? Much of the area between the CBD and Hall are already occupied by suburban neighborhoods and the suburban styled layout of the Meadows Foundation. THe Ross - Live Oak corridor and Deep Ellum are the urban activities sandwiching a quieter, suburban stretch.

Eventually, I hope a trolly/street car (something to that effect) runs from Mockingbird Station down Greenville/Matilda - with one branch down Ross/Live Oak into the CBD and another branch down Munger-Main Street through Deep Ellum to the CBD This would take some of the development stress of the quiter parts of this part of town and keep the activity on the big streets.

[gc]

Well some may say that any development is a good development....especially in an underseverved area. But I too and a little leary about a suburban development in an urban enviroment.

[TexasStar]

This retail center is a very good thing. I can't imagine a way to spin it into a negative.

And just calling it 'suburban' doesn't make it so.

No matter what gets built, I'm confident that no customer shopping there will get confused and think they are in Frisco.

[dallastophoenix]

i agree... i'm leary as well. having a large grocery store downtown will be great, but i just can't picture a cityplace development there - especially with suburban-style parking lots... perhaps the success of the project in the coming years will result in additional retail being built on those parking lots, and will open the eyes of other investors to build more retail.

[214]

i dont like this idea at all,dont get me wrong i do think the central part of the city needs more retail but it doesnt need surburban-style shopping centers, i hiope this project fails,if they change the design then ill suport it

[jsoto3]

While good for the immediate neighborhood, this is terrible for downtown. It will eliminate the possibility of a grocer in downtown proper and downtown residents will still have to drive to get groceries. I feel like those few blocks are more suited to urban residential than suburban retail. To construct a monolithic shopping center I suspect they will have to tear out a few streets (small blocks). This is all bad in my opinion.

[214]

i totally agree with you jsoto

why cant they just buy a parking lot in downtown and build it there,they would have to change the design,im sure they wouldnt built a suburban sytle shopping center in downtown

if i was a developer i would bulid in downtown,i just dont understand why these developers cant think like alot of us on this forum

[gc]

Originally posted by 214
if i was a developer i would bulid in downtown,i just dont understand why these developers cant think like alot of us on this forum

lol...me too....my friend...me too...

[Kelley USA]

If done right I think this could be a good thing. I know the City can certainly use the tax dollars that it will generate! I'm not that opposed to it- but I think the tenants they attract will be a big factor.

[bloodandpopcorn]

I'm very upset by this. When I saw it in the paper, I nearly wept. The city should prohibit them from changing any streets or existing alleys. If they have big suburban style parking, I hope some people come up from the souther sector with pipe bombs or whatever the hell else they can to help destroy it. I could handle this being like the blockbuster/bibbentuckers area in uptown... but if we get a Preston Royal like shopping place, I will be devistated...

[214]

lol...i hope they set the place on fire while its under construction

[Kelley USA]

Oh come on- I would love to see an Old Navy and Barnes & Noble with a Rack Room Shoes snuggled in between the two... We could save the two corner spots for a La Madeleine and another Starbucks! And who wouldn't want to see Don Pablos, Saltgrass and Macaroni Grill grace the front of the development on three beautiful pad sites....

[214]

whatever happen to that homeless guy who kept setting fires in uptown last year,maybe hes available

does anyone know who im talking about,he was on the news

[Quiz03]

What I don't understand is why the city would have zoning that allows suburban style development in the central city...including uptown and all the drug stores. They could easily require buildings to at least go to the street and parking in the rear or in a garage. More short-sightedness by Dallas (big surprise).

[Columbus Civil]

We should be prepared to scour the earth for those responsible for this.

[dallastophoenix]

I guess we can only hope that by "suburban" they mean something like Preston Center... and not Cityplace.

btw, i just received an e-mail back from one of the writers at D magazine. He had just come from an edit meeting and they were discussing the same thing: the folks in downtown dallas need smaller stores to walk to, not big suburban buildings with large surface lots that gobble up space...

[gc]

Which D Magazine writer? Are they gonna write about it some more or try to do something?

[dallastophoenix]

Tim Rogers...

I asked if there was anything the city or the residents could do to change the development at that site. He said that as far as D Magazine could do,

"Well, we can write about it, and try to shame them into doing the sensible thing. That's about it."

The magazine's usually good about tackling issues like this, and bringing them to everyone's attention.

[JaeTex]

thanks y'all...I thought I was getting too cynical, but I see I have a long way to go.

I happen to have a pretty good view of that area outside my office window, and it occurs to me there isn't really just tons of room (at least it doesn't appear that way) for a suburban style development. If they are talking about the property on Live Oak directly across from the LCC (isn't that Dallas CAN academy at the moment?) then they look to be a little limited, and they look like idiots for not building something that can really take advantage of the potential of that area.

BTW: does anyone know about how many blocks 11 acres would be? How many grocery stores and home depots can fit in that size of space?

[rantanamo]

Are they talking about the block on the right of this pic?
<img src=http://img6.photobucket.com/albums/v19/rantanamo/BryanPlace/DSCF0001.jpg> I believe that one is empty. Also are the blocks empty on the west side of Texas St on both sides of live oak?

[tamtagon]

Mr. Ashmore said surveys show that almost 16,000 apartments are within one mile of the central business district. And it's growing every day," he said. "There is already a big demand for retailers for locations in the central city."

My guess: the customers of the retailers in this development will need a vehicle to handle the goods they purchase, even if only traveling one block from the store. Albertsons, Target, Home Depot all have big suburban parking lots for big cars & trucks because most purchases require a trunk, spacious back seat or truck bead for transportation of goods. Retailers in Mockingbird Station and West Village sell product which can be easily and conveniently carried by hand or backpack.

[Columbus Civil]

I didn't drop all that cash to lease my Hummer just to have it sit in a musty old garage.

[trolleygirl]

11 acres = ~ 4 blocks

[tamtagon]

c. civi, you're leasing your hummers now?

[Columbus Civil]

Just the ones in my garage.

[crescentboi]

I've been reading all of this trying to figure out what I think and i'm mixed. I have no problem with those stores coming in, because I have seen first hand that they can be done in a urban way. They don't necessarily need large parking lots. If they build a parking garage right up to the backside of the building and do a two story set up it would be no problem. They could have a little surface parking, but not much. If you shop at Ikea they are large two story buildings and you put your shopping carts in its own escalator and away it goes! also there is a development in Gaithersburg, MD that i've been to called The Washington Center where there is a large target, two story's with an entrance on each level to the garage and the little grocery cart escalator. that's a part of a large development simmilar in idea to the west village, but different types of retailors. we need some of those larger stores near to the downtown area i feel, but just not done the way that the far suburbs are done. also, didn't he say in the article that there would be a garage built with some surface parking? also i think if they did something in a brick style like west village or the lofts nearby, it wouldn't be a problem.

[texcolo]

I went with out a car for a while back in college, and grocery shopping is a grade-A pain with out it.

I think they'd be throwing their money away with out a parking lot... but maybe they can put some lofts on top of the store as some sort of compromise.

There's just not enough pedestrian traffic in the area to justify an "urban" type of store there.

If you wanna see an urban style grocery store, with plenty of pedistrian traffic, there's a grocery store just north of Maple and Wycliff, in Little Mexico with plenty of foot traffic. I used to deliver newspapers in the area and was always impressed with the amount of pedestrian shoppers in that area.

[bloodandpopcorn]

What woudl be wrong with having a three story parking garage? or four story? they should get more cars in, push the store up to the street, so that in 10 years when there is enough pedestrian traffic to justify it, nothing has to change, and possibly have the more "convenient areas" made to be paid-for parking to get extra revnue... You could have more people accomidated, larger ammounts of retail, and help to create the urban environment.

If they would do that, I would be cheering for this project. But they specifically say they want this to be suburban style done near downtown. And that just irritates me to no end; makes me want to kill something.

[Columbus Civil]

It's really simple: a surface parking lot is much, much cheaper to build and maintain than a parking garage.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Hehe, I agree Columbus Civil -- that mindset of corporations is exactly why I think this will be "Preston/Plano Parkway Strip Mall Redux: Downtown Dallas". I was posing the question to texcolo, because he mentioned not having a parking lot as being a huge financial mistake. But after re-reading texcolo's post and thinking about it, I think we'd probably agree... So the post is really just a dream for the site, one that would make it really a positive move for the site in my mind.

[Columbus Civil]

Yeah, I agree with you. Unfortunately, most developers are more interested in making a a quick buck rather than creating long term positive solutions to urban decay.

[Haretip]

I think the comments about burning/destroying a grocery store is a little over the top.

We're not yet a completely communist country and private land ownership is still allowed. If I want to buy the Bank of America Tower, tear it down and pave a new parking lot, that's my right to do so (even if it is incredibly stupid/waste of money).

If you want dense retail, get out from behind your computer and go do it. I accept the concept that city government can and does shape our land use, so the alternative to doing it yourself is to get involved with city government. Whining on the internet or threatening to destroy someone's property is ludicrous.

[freewaytincan]

Originally posted by JaeTex
I was leery reading the whole thing, and then the very last sentence confirmed my worst fears. Suburban shopping in an urban environment. woo f-ing hoo.

That area near the LCC has good potential and they are going to fill it with a giant parking lot with some retail thrown in as well.

But then I am ultra-cynical lately. I suppose this new is more good than bad.
I must say that I certainly agree. This is BAD news for the central city. And it is bad news for investors, because the powers that be in this development group don't realize that they are mining iron OUT OF A GOLD MINE!!!

[Quiz03]

I'm sure itwon't be as bad as preston/plano. The lot won't be quite as big, but it might be quite as bad considering the area.

[evdallas]

Originally posted by Kelley USA
Oh come on- I would love to see an Old Navy and Barnes & Noble with a Rack Room Shoes snuggled in between the two... We could save the two corner spots for a La Madeleine and another Starbucks! And who wouldn't want to see Don Pablos, Saltgrass and Macaroni Grill grace the front of the development on three beautiful pad sites....


I can only hope you are kidding.

[Jack Flack]

I am really curious to see what happens with this site. I too am very suspicious of a suburban style shopping center at this location. Being the good citizen that I am, I contacted the City Council Rep to see if they have seen the project. I have yet to hear a response though.

If done properly, a hybrid suburban development could be done that preserves the 'urban' context of the neighborhood yet still provides adequate vehicle access. I am doubtful the developer will be that innovative though.

[freewaytincan]

Yeah, my dad is extremely upset with this announcement. Since he's been getting into real estate lately, he's been taking my side a lot, and has taken on the business part of real estate (including a house refurbishing business, Simon-Burgess...mostly for houses in places like near downtowns of Garland, Richardson, and Plano, also matured neighborhoods). He agrees that this is a perfect spot that is being wasted completely, and from a financial standpoint, is only going to produce about 10 to 15 percent for the developers than what an ideal development would.

[Quiz03]

Did anyone else notice that the Davis Lot grocery was supposed to be a Kroger. I was wondering why they had backed out. Oh well they'll do a lot more volume at the bigger store so it makes business sense to not compete against themselves. I hope the city does something so that the development looks like it isn't completely out of place.

[aceplace]

We should defer our criticism until we see some renderings... maybe their idea of "suburban" won't be too bad.

I read a reference to 1200 parking spaces, and underground as well as surface parking. Sounds like most of the spaces will be underground... after all, the West Village also has a little bit of surface parking.

One positive aspect of this development is that it will eliminate the derilict environment immediately east of the freeway. Currently, the vacant lots and shabby buildings are a disincentive to pedestrian movement between the Pearl Street DART station and the new apartments around Exall Park. Eliminating that barrier will effectively add a lot of housing to DTD.

[gc]

I have to agree with you there Ace.

[Jack Flack]

Last week I emailed Veletta Lill about the development and here is her response.

"I think it is fair to say that I was horrified to read the developers comments in the paper about a "suburban style development in an urban environment." Especially since I have met with him to impress on him the importance of this area and a pedestrian/transit oriented development I was surprised with the comment. I can assure you I will be working to ensure that it is not suburban."

At least the City is aware of the issue. Perhaps these discussions will lead the developer to alter the plan so it makes a better fit in the neighborhood. It wouldn't take much for that to happen.

[tamtagon]

Perhaps the construction will be considered in two phases. THe cheap suburban strip mall approach for starters, then as the neighborhood's population density increases and the train station planned nearby opens, the property is redeveloped into a pedestrian friendly TOD more appropriate in the middle of the city. Currently, not too many people live within walking distance of the site (at least people with a mailing address); the businesses which will be initially successful in this space will depend on attracting customers arriving in cars.

When in 2010, the Arts District is a more popular destination (Performing Artc Center & Natural History Museum), and the trains are running down the track this development will transform. The extent to which the Latino Cultural Center is embrased will affect the development of the immediate area; the proposed development may become an upscale mercado. What the future holds, who knows, but I'm not going to sweat this one too much.

[gc]

GlobeSt.com EXCLUSIVE: Developer Charts Q1 Start for 650,000-SF Plan
By Connie Gore - Thursday, August 12, 2004 07:06pm
http://www.globest.com/news/93_93/dallas/125500-1.html

DALLAS-A leading local developer, with nearly three city blocks in hand, is eyeing a first quarter 2005 groundbreaking on 600,000 sf of retail and 50,000 sf of office space in East Dallas. The City Lights project has been on the drawing board for one year.

Don Silverman, president of Margaux Development Co., tells GlobeSt.com that the retail anchors will be signed within 30 days. To date, he's acquired 10 of the 12 tracts and is zeroing in on the final closings as he continues "intense negotiations" with "three or four class A anchor tenants," one rumored to be a top-draw grocer.

The class A development, which requires nine buildings to be razed, will be bordered by Good-Latimer, Texas and Live Oak streets--on the east side of Central Expressway, but with views of the Dallas CBD. "Theoretically, it's East Dallas, but I could take a rock and toss it into the CBD," Silverman says of his land assembly, quickly adding that Uptown is less than two minutes away.

Silverman's been looking since 1996 for an urban core site to develop, investing the past year into pushing the plan and taking down the tracts needed for City Lights. "This is timing meets opportunity," he explains of his push forward on a development ticketed to come out of the ground all at once. Delivery is penciled for first quarter 2006. When keys turn, Marqaux Development plans to carve out some space for itself and relocate from 14900 Landmark Blvd. in Dallas.

The City Lights plan has yet to reach city desks. Silverman has hired Jack O'Brien of O'Brien & Associates Inc. of Dallas to start designing a development that "follows adaptive reuse," wedding today's efficiencies to yesteryear's exteriors for office and warehouse structures. The preliminary plan calls for a trio of three-story retail buildings, 50,000-sf office structure and seven-story parking garage. Silverman says the design is open-ended until negotiations turn into signed contracts. "Until they agree, it's hard to finish the plan," he says.

As for the all-in development tab, it's too early to nail down. "We are still in the formative stages," Silverman says. The 11 acres, bought from a dozen property owners, were secured with financing arranged by Todd McNeill, senior director for Metropolitan Capital Advisors Ltd. in Dallas.

[gc]

I wonder how the new moratorium affects this...if at all...

[rantanamo]

It reads much much better than it did before. Lots of answered questions. 2, 3-story retail buildings. Office structure and parking garage. "Adaptive reuse" Sounds like the Can Academy building will go. Texas St to Good Lattimer will be a tight fit, so there may not be much surface parking. Probably a couple of rows if any. I hope they would face Bryan in the back(I'm thinking that's the NW border. Could be decent.

[dallastophoenix]

can't wait for the renderings.

[Jack Flack]

Agreed, this project sounds much more promising than previous articles. Sounds like surface parking will be minimal since there was mention of a 7-story parking structure. If done properly this could be a great addition to an area that really needs some help. Plus its within walking distance of two rail stations.