Graffiti everywhere...

[dallashorn]

Anyone else notice that over the past year there seems to be graffiti going up everywhere in Dallas. I think the topic has been somewhat discussed before, however, it was based on whether the graffiti was artistic. What I am seeing is just plain vandalism. Anyone know if the city is doing anything about this?

[214]

you should check out the dallas graffiti thread pt.1 and 2

i totally agree with you dallashorn over the past 3 years graffiti has been going up everywhere in dallas

i love graffiti(i use to be a graffiti artist myself) as long its not in downtown

[bloodandpopcorn]

Yes, there is alot of vandalism going up. And it is rather disgusting. I think there needs to be some form of regulation, to allow for the really talented artists to make their art on spaces that desire such work, but to harshly punish and quickly clean up vandalism.

[JaeTex]

Way more just over the last month or so. Noticed the other day that the Meyerson (or was it DMA, either is awful) had been tagged.

[tamtagon]

It's a definate sign of frustration, whether coming as a juvenile prank, or a considered defacing of non-essential expenses. Rather than simply placing blame and administering punishment on those who empty the can of paint on our museums et. al., I've always thought the more arduous discovery of root causes to be more productive - a best case scenario usually outside the wherewithal of any single municipality. Dallas and Texas historically has not been the place to solve a social dilema by talking about a problem - the discussion generally coming well after the precipitating event, and easily outlasting the effects of the misbehavior.

[JaeTex]

Sorry, but no.

It is akin to a dog lifting its hind leg to mark its territory, and should be treated as such, or more harshly because a dog is presumably less understanding.

We don't need to discuss "root causes" but to undertake an active program to remove it ASAP (I think it should be a serious code violation for a property owner to have grafitti on walls for over a week), and find and punish those who do it. They should 1) be forced to do community service, 2) have their house tagged (probably just with a sign in the yard stating that an idiot lives there) and 3) of course pay damages.

The root cause is not frustration or whatever, but a basic disrespect for the rest of the community and if it is not prosecuted then they will learn that they can get away with that and much more (see the "broken windows theory"). It needs to be nipped in the bud quickly.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Well said JaeTex!!

[tamtagon]

I think it should be a serious code violation for a property owner to have grafitti on walls for over a week

That would be a stirck code, time consuming and difficult to enforce. And it seems to punish the victim - the property owner. What happens when a well minded citizens reports as a code violation grafitti which was intentional?

Rather than tagging the house of the vandal, perhaps we should cut off a finger. I dont mean to imply that vandalism should go unpunished in favor of a round-robin meeting of the minds, but the crime must be understood before punishment is administered. Afterall, the goal of punishment is to stop future occurances, right?

Historically, grafitti and similar vandalism (and many violent crimes) always spike in the summer. Maybe that's why we're noticing more.

[JaeTex]

You can't realistically expect to catch even a small percentage of the taggers, so the best way to fight is to make their work a waste of time (though I suspect they have more time to waste than we do). Therefore, the goal is not to stop grafitti...it is to make sure no one sees it (thereby denying the vandal his fame or whatever) which hopefully will lead to no more grafitti.

Yes it would be a strict code measure, and therefore I don't expect it to happen, but it is really not too different from making it a code violation to allow your grass to grow to high. It's not something you actively did but you allowed to happen through inaction. It's a nuisance in the neigborhood if you will. Yes, it seems unfair but one piece of grafitti will bring more to the neigborhood as the vandals see that they can tag at will and no one cares. And for every building tagged, people will care less if theirs is tagged, so more will be tagged, the whole neighborhood will be tagged, property values will drop (are you going to more into a neigborhood where grafitti is rampant), the area will become a blight and in 30 years some enterpising person will buy a few houses, fix them up, and people will realize it's not such a bad neigborhood after all...I exaggerate but it's the first step on a journey most neighborhoods don't want to take.

There is not much to understand about the crime, the person doing it has no respect for the property of others, while that may be some evidence of a greater disaffection from society, to stop the crime does not require some touchy-feely intervention. The problem is grafitti, you stop grafitti by punishing the taggers not by empowering them or their communities (as most of those efforts seem to me to be aimed at the community level).

While in the long run a better society, yada yada yada, will result in less vandalism. In the short run less vandalism will result in a better society.

I don't mean to sound too strident ( though I have no sympathy for the vandals), but I am really pissed off at the increase I have seen in just the last month or even weeks. I mean come on while it may be ironic if they tagged the DMA it is horrible.

[JaeTex]

P.S. I was just informed from someone who really should know that "the law holds the property owner legally responsible." And that recent tagging in the Uptown area will cost about $5,700 to clean up.

I think that punishment for taggers should be tagging their home or themselves (e.g. a sign in their yard and/or make them wear pink jumpsuits for a month or something).

[bloodandpopcorn]

God, that's disgusting. $5,700??

I agree about tagging them. They should also be responsible for cleaning up the tagging, physically. And if they can't do that, then they must clean up 2 other taggings, or something like that, and either way must pay a fine to cover all costs of cleaning them up. And some of that should go to whatever building incurred damages from the tagging, unless its a public space, in which case it can be put in a fund for public art or spaces etc. in the future. If they can't pay, or if it is a second offence, then I think jail time should be a significant part of the punishment for the tagger, or anyone found in connection with it that would not give up the tagger.

Cracking down here and showing some leadership could really show that Dallas can pull together and take care of some more serious issues. If Detroit had been able to show that kind of leadership and unity, then it probably wouldnt have fared as it has been recently.

[aceplace]

The best way to eliminate tagging is to erase it immediately... I don't mean this month or this week, but the same day.

If it costs the city an extra $500,000 a year to hire the crews to do it, that is money well spent.

In New York, the transit authority issued a rule. A rail car would not leave the yard with graffiti, no matter what. It would be removed before anybody saw it.

Sometimes, when they found some taggers working on a rail car in a siding somewhere, they would let them work until they finished, then walk up and immediately destroy their work. Just to be mean.

If tagging were IMMEDIATELY removed, and it looked like the practice would continue, nobody would tag anymore, would they?

As far as holding the owner responsible for the cost? I don't know. What if he just toughs it out in court for 6 months or a year? The tagger wins that one.

[psukhu]

Use the child molester tactic:

Create a website and post pictures of people who vandalize public properties like museums and monuments.

---------------------------------

Classify this offense under the “Don’t Mess with Texas” campaign.

Have public service announcements that explain that vandalism must be cleaned up with tax money.

Get ordinary citizens to be more vigilant by encouraging them to call the police when they see someone vandalizing.

Get DISD to incorporate anti-vandalism messages into the curriculum.

Heavy punishments for the parents of minors who are caught.

[JaeTex]

A website is no good...no one will be scared enough of vandals to be motivated to see who is on there, plus the vandals hang out with other vandals who won't care if they are on some website. Now if we made them wear a pink jumpsuit that said "Tagger" on the back or something, that would be a deterrent I imagine.

I actually think jail time would not be a good idea. Jail should be for violent criminals and putting vandals in there may only acclimatize them to violence and turn them from relatively harmless punks into scary crooks.

[gc]

I too have really started to notice graffiti everywhere, literally everywhere. I even noticed some crap spray painted at Thanksgiving Square. This is not the result of some kids needing a creative outlet...it is vandalism...crap.

One thing I have noticed most is the word(s) 'Rhein' and 'Rheinstein' as well as various others. What is this?

[JaeTex]

Mostly I see "sekt" and "corpse"

BTW, I was told police had suspects in the recent tagging around Uptown, but here it is 2-3 weeks later and the graffiti is still there. Crack clean up job. It needs to disappear immediately.

[214]

the past 2 years reign,sekt,and corpse have been the main 3 in tagging up dallas

[US75Guy]

Sorry to see tagging at the base of some of the High Five columns, visible from the LBJ/Central DART station. Really a disappointment to see that show up.

I will differentiate between graffiti artists and vandals. This was vandalism. Vandals want the attention, so no home tagging, no pink jumpsuits, no web sites. Just have a team with city services to get rid of it as quickly as possible, to avoid a vandal's fame. And if caught, he/she gets to clean the sewers (out of sight) for a month or two.

[freewaytincan]

Sorry to see tagging at the base of some of the High Five columns, visible from the LBJ/Central DART station. Really a disappointment to see that show up.

I will differentiate between graffiti artists and vandals. This was vandalism. Vandals want the attention, so no home tagging, no pink jumpsuits, no web sites. Just have a team with city services to get rid of it as quickly as possible, to avoid a vandal's fame. And if caught, he/she gets to clean the sewers (out of sight) for a month or two.

Sounds good to me. Anyone remember when they thought it'd be a good idea to get every overpass on the northbound lanes of Central from downtown to around Northpark? That was the worst.

[US75Guy]

yeah, the tagging was up there for a month, right when my mother came to visit. So of course I got the "look how dirty these big cities are" speech.

Seems like we could get matching paing to cover this stuff up. Half the time the coverup paint makes as big an eyesore as the original graffiti. We really need some rapid response teams armed with perserverance....and a color wheel.

[texman]

Sorry to see tagging at the base of some of the High Five columns, visible from the LBJ/Central DART station. Really a disappointment to see that show up.

I will differentiate between graffiti artists and vandals. This was vandalism. Vandals want the attention, so no home tagging, no pink jumpsuits, no web sites. Just have a team with city services to get rid of it as quickly as possible, to avoid a vandal's fame. And if caught, he/she gets to clean the sewers (out of sight) for a month or two.

You know that reminded me, the guy that runs the texasfreeway.com website has a photos of it. Of course him being biased and anti-transit he blamed it on the nearby light rail station. Quote from him "Column painting in progress at the Greenville/DART rail overpass. The extra color on the columns shown here is probably because of the nearby light rail station. "

Really irked me when I read it.

[RobertB]

You know that reminded me, the guy that runs the texasfreeway.com website has a photos of it. Of course him being biased and anti-transit he blamed it on the nearby light rail station. Quote from him "Column painting in progress at the Greenville/DART rail overpass. The extra color on the columns shown here is probably because of the nearby light rail station. "

Really irked me when I read it.What a fool. More likely that the taggers had a car, for a quicker getaway. If he wants to equate crime with mass transit, perhaps he'd like to equate arson with a hand-warmer (and suggest more funding for "harmless" flamethrowers).

Anyway, back to the subject. Grand Prairie has a Graffiti Hotline, and will even send a city crew out to remove the graffiti for you! One page on the city's site says that they received 800 calls to the hotline in 2003. As I recall, before the city program began, "SSC" (South Side Criminals, supposedly) was written on nearly every vertical surface. Within a few months, the tag was only found in the men's room.

http://www.gptx.org/code/code.asp

Graffiti
Grafiti must be removed from all surfaces visible to the public. The city can help. With written consent from the property owner, the city will remove graffiti free of charge. To report graffiti, call 972-237-8599.

[trolleygirl]

I think it's all the gangs

[freewaytincan]

What's funny about this is that of all the ones to tag, they got the test columns. These will be repainted regardless.

[tamtagon]

After they are repainted, I hope the "criminals" go back to do it again. I think it looks better.

[TexasTiny]

Anyone else notice that over the past year there seems to be graffiti going up everywhere in Dallas. I think the topic has been somewhat discussed before, however, it was based on whether the graffiti was artistic. What I am seeing is just plain vandalism. Anyone know if the city is doing anything about this?

I noticed the rise in the past year or so. I hate those IDIOTS that are trashing up our city. Its everywhere now. This type of vandalism is hard to control too. As usual, La La Miller and the city government seems to be not concerned about it at all.

Graffiti is not art. Graffiti = retards with cans of spray paint.

[tamtagon]

Graffiti is not art. Graffiti = retards with cans of spray paint.

Is it just the location which renders the work unworthy of being called art?
If the art is legally considered vandalism, does that make the artist a retard?

I'm not trying to defend pranksters or gangsters but I'm tired of all the boring, generic concrete surfaces of public structures - even more tired of being let down by every new & improved visual design component which does little more than provide a slight perversion of a pervasive fascade.

Rather than criminalize the creativity, engage the civil disobedience to become aesthetic contributions and sanction "graffiti" on more than just the fated tunnel walls leading into Deep Ellum.

[drumguy8800]

I think we need some clarification, however obvious the difference may be. Coupling murals and tagging into 'graffiti' is kind of dumb. The artwork on the Good Latimer Tunnel is considered a 'mural' done with spray paint.. which lends to it being called 'graffiti.' The graffiti we see on the side of railroad bridges.. i.e. tagging, is vandalism. Any "graffiti" is vandalism. A mural is a mural, even if people who wish to call it something ambiguous. I have never considered the mural.. like the ones done by school-children on dallas sidewalk retaining slopes, or the murals in deep ellum / downtown / good latimer to be anything other than public art.

[US75Guy]

[QUOTE=tamtagon]I'm tired of all the boring, generic concrete surfaces of public structures - even more tired of being let down by every new & improved visual design component which does little more than provide a slight perversion of a pervasive fascade.

Yet someone else, a civil engineer, a designer with TxDot, somebody created that visual design component, artists in a sense. And now someone else has taken it upon themselves to deface someone else's art and replace it with theirs.

I'm not going to pretend that seafoam green and red columns at the High Five, or round spheres at Mockingbird/75 are necessarily ground-breaking art. But they were created and implemented. I don't agree we have the option of defacing property because it does not satisfy our sensibilities. And I'm not sure that driving down an expressway trench decorated with gang initials and profanity makes for a profound, thought-provoking drive home either.

[drumguy8800]

It's façade..

And that graffiti next to the high five.. The person did it on concrete that was inevitably going to be PAINTED OVER.. harmless..

[js]

It is amazing that people have time to talk about graffiti. I personally think you guys are giving it too much time.

Graffiti is any type of text or drawing on any type of public wall or surface.
Taggin is putting ones name, group name or "GANG" name on any time of surface.

Taggin is vandalism.

Honestly I do not see a problem with it. It may be that I am young and have lived in Oak Cliff for too long, but it does not bother me one bit to see "graffiti" on the wall. It bothers me more that I have to constantly see advertising everywhere I look. On the walls of Buildings downtown, billboards, and huge signage this bothers me alot more than graffiti.

So if it bothers you so much do something about it, talking about it helps nothing. Go out and buy a power washer, and volunteer to remove this graffiti if it bothers you so much.

[trolleygirl]

It is amazing that people have time to talk about graffiti. I personally think you guys are giving it too much time.

Graffiti is any type of text or drawing on any type of public wall or surface.
Taggin is putting ones name, group name or "GANG" name on any time of surface.

Taggin is vandalism.

Honestly I do not see a problem with it. It may be that I am young and have lived in Oak Cliff for too long, but it does not bother me one bit to see "graffiti" on the wall. It bothers me more that I have to constantly see advertising everywhere I look. On the walls of Buildings downtown, billboards, and huge signage this bothers me alot more than graffiti.

So if it bothers you so much do something about it, talking about it helps nothing. Go out and buy a power washer, and volunteer to remove this graffiti if it bothers you so much.

Well, vandalism is a crime so I can't really condone it or say that I'm not botheed by it. Most of the tagging in my neighvorhood is de facto gangs. So we remove it as soon as we see it. Some of it is local brats just being little vandals. We remove it when we see it. In Vickery Meadow, it's a combination as well. At any rate, we try to remove it all as soon as possible.

One comment that I love is about the advertising. I'm sick to death of billboards. I think it clutteres up our city.

[RobertB]

Well, vandalism is a crime so I can't really condone it or say that I'm not botheed by it. Most of the tagging in my neighvorhood is de facto gangs. So we remove it as soon as we see it. Some of it is local brats just being little vandals. We remove it when we see it. In Vickery Meadow, it's a combination as well. At any rate, we try to remove it all as soon as possible.

One comment that I love is about the advertising. I'm sick to death of billboards. I think it clutteres up our city.
How about when billboards are the destination for the graffiti? That happened a lot last year on US 175 through Pleasant Grove. It's usually just some curvy tagging with no obvious (to me) symbolism.

One memorable event was when someone painted over an entire billboard. At least, I think it was a graffiti artist at work. It was on the northern section of US 175, the part that's actually Old South Central Expressway. The entire billboard had been redone in red and white into something that looked like a highly abstracted version of the Starsky and Hutch car, with some of the original billboard left exposed for texture and contrast. I wish I'd gotten a picture. Anyone else see it?

[trolleygirl]

How about when billboards are the destination for the graffiti? That happened a lot last year on US 175 through Pleasant Grove. It's usually just some curvy tagging with no obvious (to me) symbolism.

One memorable event was when someone painted over an entire billboard. At least, I think it was a graffiti artist at work. It was on the northern section of US 175, the part that's actually Old South Central Expressway. The entire billboard had been redone in red and white into something that looked like a highly abstracted version of the Starsky and Hutch car, with some of the original billboard left exposed for texture and contrast. I wish I'd gotten a picture. Anyone else see it?

I missed that one. It seems like the billboards in the not-so-glamorous-sides of town are trhe ones that never get maintained and then they get hit with taggers.

[mikedsjr]

I can see Trolley point and S_J's point.

But where I disagree with S_J is his waterdown mentality because he is so used to it. Vandalism is a crime. I can certainly understand the mentality that some things are not nearly as important as others. Graffiti just demonstrates the lack of respect for others and their property AND its a crime.

Its a moral issue.

[trolleygirl]

I can see Trolley point and S_J's point.

But where I disagree with S_J is his waterdown mentality because he is so used to it. Vandalism is a crime. I can certainly understand the mentality that some things are not nearly as important as others. Graffiti just demonstrates the lack of respect for others and their property AND its a crime.

Its a moral issue.

Actually it's a legal issue, since it is a crime to vandalize others' property. We don't have enough social services in this town to provide needed after school projects for "at-risk" youth- we have lids who were born here 15, 14, 13, 12 years ago, whose parents probably are not legal and work all the time, some of these kids may be raising their siblings, so they have no parents really beyond pre-teen years. It's easy to see why some kids would get into trouble. We have a high drop out rate in this city- part of a statewide trend. We are a border state, which means that some of our issues are really unique because of the influx of low-wage earners raising kids here. They are only trying to make a better life for their kids, but at the same time, what happens when they are caught in a world where they can't speak the language- but their kids do- and their kids are old enough to have jobs but don't, how can these parents help their kids in school, how can they help their kids find jobs, how can they keep up with their kids? Do you think they're talking to their kids about drugs, sex, alcohol, smoking, teen-pregnancy, or worse- gay marriage? Do you think they understand the importance of the DAT and getting into college? Border states need more social programs, and I think Texas suffers from a severe shortage of job-training, jobs, after school programs, leadership training, etc. for kids who at risk of not graduating high school.

[tamtagon]

Rather than criminalize the creativity, engage the civil disobedience to become aesthetic contributions and sanction "graffiti" on more than just the fated tunnel walls leading into Deep Ellum.

Can you see my point, mikedsjr?

[mikedsjr]

Actually it's a legal issue, since it is a crime to vandalize others' property. We don't have enough social services in this town to provide needed after school projects for "at-risk" youth- we have lids who were born here 15, 14, 13, 12 years ago, whose parents probably are not legal and work all the time, some of these kids may be raising their siblings, so they have no parents really beyond pre-teen years. It's easy to see why some kids would get into trouble. We have a high drop out rate in this city- part of a statewide trend. We are a border state, which means that some of our issues are really unique because of the influx of low-wage earners raising kids here. They are only trying to make a better life for their kids, but at the same time, what happens when they are caught in a world where they can't speak the language- but their kids do- and their kids are old enough to have jobs but don't, how can these parents help their kids in school, how can they help their kids find jobs, how can they keep up with their kids? Do you think they're talking to their kids about drugs, sex, alcohol, smoking, teen-pregnancy, or worse- gay marriage? Do you think they understand the importance of the DAT and getting into college? Border states need more social programs, and I think Texas suffers from a severe shortage of job-training, jobs, after school programs, leadership training, etc. for kids who at risk of not graduating high school.

So are you blaming vandalism on alien kids?

[js]

I did not say vandalism is not a crime.
My point is that not all Graffiti is vandalism, some graffiti is commissioned like any other type of art. Graffiti like any other art is subjective to the viewer. Some may like it others don't, some understand it others don't.

Taggin on the other hand is vandalism no matter what. Nobody is going to commission you to put your name or your gang name anywhere. This type of graffiti is a crime, and should be punished.

Here is another thing that bothers me; a gang tagged the back of my garage a few years back. I had no problem with it and it did not bother me one bit. But the city sent me (well my dad) a fine, for not removing it in a timely manner. Not only did my dad have to pay the fine but also I had to paint the backside of our garage.

Trolley girl, if we paid about 50% of out paycheck to the government, I bet we could afford all these programs; now all you have to do is convince the people to give up their hard earned money.

[mikedsjr]

Can you see my point, mikedsjr?

Sure, there is some merit to this. The problem is like the smoking ban. You can't legalize to one group without opening pandora's box to loopholes.

There's no question that there are places where I like the grafitti, even though it is illegal. For me, certain locations almost seem ok because it says welcome to Urban Dallas. Like the bridge over I35W on the west side of downtown. I like that. But its still illegal, even if people enjoy it and are not personally harmed by it.

[mikedsjr]

Trolley girl, if we paid about 50% of out paycheck to the government, I bet we could afford all these programs; now all you have to do is convince the people to give up their hard earned money.

If people were what they said they were, then most people would be involved voluntarily to help, instead of just at Christmas.

[trolleygirl]

Look, I work in one of the poorest neighborhoods in the City where the mean household income hovers at around $13,000 per year. (49% are either 100% or 200% below the federal poverty level) (the County's rate is 33%).

Incidentally, it's also the highest crime neighborhood in the City, the most densly populated one in the City, which means it probably has the highest per capita crime rate the State of Texas. 51,000 resident in 3.5 miles. We are all too familiar with the plight of Vickery Meadow.

I'm looking at my latest stats for Vickery Meadow right now...50% of the residents here speak English fluenetly, 26% speak English "a little". Ethnic distribution in 2000 was 68.3% White, 18.7% African American and 8.5% Hispanic. Today it's 36.1% white, 29.7% African American and 26.3% Hispanic. The Hispanic population grew the most by over 300%. It's a good microcosm of the City and State and the direction Texas is headed, especially in terms of ethnic distribution. (I'm worried about these low wages and Texas lagging in terms of econiomic distribution).

We have a dearth of cheap housing stock here and the lowest wage earners in the State of Texas tend to be Latino immigrants.

Too many people in this City and State are all too happy to ignore the fact that we have a larger social issue on our hands, and to simply dismiss comments similar to mine noted here as too costly, unrealistic or blaming the problems on poor ethnic minorities, and hence racist. This is not the case. Our collective psyches alert us to problems within our larger social groups. Tagging and grafitti is is a cry for help from those among us are struggling the most. And like most expressive outbursts, the more it gets ignored, the louder and more progressive it becomes.

Besides, haven't y'all heard the "Broken Windows" theory?

[js]

graffiti is not a cry for help
they do it for the adrenaline rush of being caught

social issues
I have a different perspective than you trolleygirl
you work and help in the areas where you see these problems
I live and have been through the problems that you only see or hear about.

[trolleygirl]

graffiti is not a cry for help
they do it for the adrenaline rush of being caught

social issues
I have a different perspective than you trolleygirl
you work and help in the areas where you see these problems
I live and have been through the problems that you only see or hear about.

j- I live in South Dallas near Frazier Courts. I am not wealthy. I don't live in an affluent community. I grew up in a poor area of town and there was a time when my family relied on support from others (food bank, Christmas charities) as well as the government (food stamps, WIC).

You are very young. Your world is outlined with smaller lines right now. One day you will have a broader perspective on things, and although you may still disagree with my opinions, you will nevertheless come to understand a little more about social studies.

[tamtagon]

j- I live in South Dallas near Frazier Courts. I am not wealthy. I don't live in an affluent community. I grew up in a poor area of town and there was a time when my family relied on support from others (food bank, Christmas charities) as well as the government (food stamps, WIC).

TG, you can also be classified as a minority, correct?


.... world is outlined with smaller lines right now. One day you will have a broader perspective on things, and although you may still disagree with my opinions, you will nevertheless come to understand a little more about social studies.

I absolutely agree regarding that the perspective of the late teens/post teen/pre-adult is fullly linear. However, these naive minds have the only perspective with an unobstructed view of many social problems. The work is to achieve a genuine understand of both, and the miracle happens when a course of action cures the problem.

[js]

I may be young but I have much broader perspective than you think.

I see the problems, and I see the things that not only affect me but others. You cannot really take everybody into consideration. The majority usually wins, and you end up with the lesser of the evils.

Texas could not, keep the cost of living down if it were not for these immigrants. Because these people make so little it cost the rest of us less to live. Immigrants are not going to stop coming by the way, they will keep coming and working for less and less. Why will they keep coming because people want to buy things cheap, this means more people will move to Texas to enjoy the low cost of living. By moving they create a rise in construction, this creates a demand for cheap labor. more immigrants come to work in construction and now it cost less to live in Texas.

people want to spend less on necessities and more on luxuries...

If all these programs did exist then more immigrants could be come successful, and help their people out. by doing this the cost of living will rise then people are not going to be whining about graffiti but about how the cost living is so high because of these educated minorities.

some people enjoy luxuries and some don't. Think about all the people in other countries are worst off than us. They are starving and have no roof over their head. in other countries people die because of the lack of food, here people die because they have too much food.

people will do what they have to do to maintain and survive


elaborate on the smaller lines and linear stuff I need more information on this i do not understand

[drumguy8800]

TG, you can also be classified as a minority, correct?
Uh. (blue suit-jacket thing.) (the tina-fey one.) (not a minority.)

And Trolleygirl, I would bet that j_s isn't all that much younger than you.


in other countries people die because of the lack of food, here people die because they have too much food.
HAHA! you just made my day.

[Columbus Civil]

Women are considered minorities.

[trolleygirl]

I may be young but I have much broader perspective than you think.

I see the problems, and I see the things that not only affect me but others. You cannot really take everybody into consideration. The majority usually wins, and you end up with the lesser of the evils.

Texas could not, keep the cost of living down if it were not for these immigrants. Because these people make so little it cost the rest of us less to live. Immigrants are not going to stop coming by the way, they will keep coming and working for less and less. Why will they keep coming because people want to buy things cheap, this means more people will move to Texas to enjoy the low cost of living. By moving they create a rise in construction, this creates a demand for cheap labor. more immigrants come to work in construction and now it cost less to live in Texas.

people want to spend less on necessities and more on luxuries...

If all these programs did exist then more immigrants could be come successful, and help their people out. by doing this the cost of living will rise then people are not going to be whining about graffiti but about how the cost living is so high because of these educated minorities.

some people enjoy luxuries and some don't. Think about all the people in other countries are worst off than us. They are starving and have no roof over their head. in other countries people die because of the lack of food, here people die because they have too much food.

people will do what they have to do to maintain and survive


elaborate on the smaller lines and linear stuff I need more information on this i do not understand

A little ecoonomics lesson: cheap labor is here because of two things: NAFTA and Vicente Fox not doing enough to stop the political cronyism in his own country. There is no middle-class in Mexico! Now, when it's an employer's market, like it is now and likely will be for a very, very long time, people are forced to work for lower wages. Period. I don't just mean poor immigrants, I mean everyone. It's why Labor was against NAFTA in the first place. Instead of working together, they were accused of being racist. The problem is Big Corporations. The problem is GREED. If your boss had the choice to pay you $10 per hour or $6 per hour, what do think he'll choose to do? Now, if all the bosses were forced to pay their workers at least a minimum of $10 per hour, it might mean a smaller yacht for the CEO, but it will also mean a higher standard of living for everyone. The problem with your argument, j, is that you equate cheap labor to middle-class Americans keeping their middle-class status but it's not the way economics work. We work by supply and demand. Yeah right now there is a demand for affordable housing. But there is also a demand for a better wage and for higher paying jobs. If people made better money, then people would have more disposable income and a greater chance to save and could buy the things that keep our economy chugging along- new cars, new homes, new appliances, etc. The demand for these new things would create jobs as we suplly them, etc.

[freewaytincan]

Women are considered minorities.

So basically the only non-minorities are a fairly small minority.