DAL: Master Plan & Reconstruction

[xen0blue]

please God let there be a direct DART connection

[Double Wide]

where is it going to be if it has one?

[saxman66]

I was there on Tuesday taking the CO shuttle to Houston for a meeting and I have to say the new DL checkin counter looks sharp! I really like the dark blue that they back the counter area with. Its nice to see someone other than WN who put more than 50 bucks into their DAL operations.

I'm so ready for this terminal reconstruction to happen. I'd love to see DL serve their other hubs like ATL, DTW and MSP. Maybe at some point they could even justify CRJ-900 service with first class! I think thats possible post Wright ammendment?

Those CRJ-900 have 76 seats, so I guess we have to wait until 2014 until those can fly in. I wonder if any other airlines will start service to DAL after then too?

[electricron]

Those CRJ-900 have 76 seats, so I guess we have to wait until 2014 until those can fly in. I wonder if any other airlines will start service to DAL after then too?

I can't and won't predict the future. But, only three airlines presently control gates at Love Field. They are Southwest, American Airlines, and Continental Airlines. So, it would be a good bet they or their corporate sisters will be flying from Love Field. Of course, they could lease or sell the gates they control to another airline, which is why I won't predict the future......

[PuddinHead]

please God let there be a direct DART connection


Can you say Airport Bus?

[jovangonzales]

It's supposed to have an indirect DART connection (DARTs station is already planned/being constructed on the west side of the airport). I like the underground maglev train and underground connecting station(s) option. Those ideas seem pretty sweet though it would be hard to justify that huge cost. It would at least look crazy modern and add that much more in the way of transportation options.

I thought Delta had a presence at DAL as well, but was leasing the gates to Continental? Delta also gets one gate in the new layout as well, no? 16 SW, 2AA, 1C, and 1D, I think? :/

[dfwcre8tive]

It's supposed to have an indirect DART connection (DARTs station is already planned/being constructed on the west side of the airport). I like the underground maglev train and underground connecting station(s) option. Those ideas seem pretty sweet though it would be hard to justify that huge cost. It would at least look crazy modern and add that much more in the way of transportation options.

I thought Delta had a presence at DAL as well, but was leasing the gates to Continental? Delta also gets one gate in the new layout as well, no? 16 SW, 2AA, 1C, and 1D, I think? :/

Delta is leasing its gates from AA. AA has the right to take them back later.

[jovangonzales]

Ooooh. Okay. So then the gates in the new terminal don't include Delta then, huh? I doubt AA will use them since they have a giant hub in DFW, and IIRC, unused AA gates go to SW in some weird swap deal that I don't totally understand.

[PuddinHead]

Ooooh. Okay. So then the gates in the new terminal don't include Delta then, huh? I doubt AA will use them since they have a giant hub in DFW, and IIRC, unused AA gates go to SW in some weird swap deal that I don't totally understand.

AA will use the gates either themselves or will lease them to the airline that can cause WN the most headaches.

[jovangonzales]

AA will use the gates either themselves or will lease them to the airline that can cause WN the most headaches.

Hahahaha. Okay. I get it now then. Thanks, yo!

[msutton]

AA will use the gates either themselves or will lease them to the airline that can cause WN the most headaches.
JetBlue, PLEASE?

[UptownDallas]

JetBlue, PLEASE?

They have previously expressed interest.

[Double Wide]

i heard the same

[aygriffith]

They have previously expressed interest.

But seemed to feel (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=JBLU:US&sid=aau5tOkEW9pU) they won't be able to get gate space since the gate reduction...

[PuddinHead]

But seemed to feel (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=JBLU:US&sid=aau5tOkEW9pU) they won't be able to get gate space since the gate reduction...

Sorry but there are plenty of gates at DFW this is just so much drama.

[ksig121]

Sorry but there are plenty of gates at DFW this is just so much drama.

Yeah, and there have been plenty of gates at DFW for a while. Why is it that no one wants to go to DFW eventhough they are still interested in this market? Why is it that we spent a billion dollars on a new international terminal and we have yet to see a major expansion of international service at DFW? There's something going on out there that scares competition away. That something is AA. Until that monopoly is at least weakened, this drama will continue.

So many people here talk about letting the free market work. Yet, at the airport where there is actual interest in gates, we reduced the number. We have been trying to entice airlines to fly out of DFW for years now, yet have made no traction. There would be far less drama if we let the free market work and quit trying to force airlines to fly out of an airport that they don't want to use.

[msutton]

Good points...

[Speedbump Joey]

Yeah, and there have been plenty of gates at DFW for a while. Why is it that no one wants to go to DFW eventhough they are still interested in this market? Why is it that we spent a billion dollars on a new international terminal and we have yet to see a major expansion of international service at DFW? There's something going on out there that scares competition away. That something is AA. Until that monopoly is at least weakened, this drama will continue.

So many people here talk about letting the free market work. Yet, at the airport where there is actual interest in gates, we reduced the number. We have been trying to entice airlines to fly out of DFW for years now, yet have made no traction. There would be far less drama if we let the free market work and quit trying to force airlines to fly out of an airport that they don't want to use.

AA has been expanding their international service within the last few years, since there has been an Open skies agreement with the US, the EU and the UK.

[PuddinHead]

Yeah, and there have been plenty of gates at DFW for a while. Why is it that no one wants to go to DFW eventhough they are still interested in this market? Why is it that we spent a billion dollars on a new international terminal and we have yet to see a major expansion of international service at DFW? There's something going on out there that scares competition away. That something is AA. Until that monopoly is at least weakened, this drama will continue.

So many people here talk about letting the free market work. Yet, at the airport where there is actual interest in gates, we reduced the number. We have been trying to entice airlines to fly out of DFW for years now, yet have made no traction. There would be far less drama if we let the free market work and quit trying to force airlines to fly out of an airport that they don't want to use.


AA at DFW and WN at DAL six one way and a half a dozen the other way.

Still this is only so much drama. When the market can support the traffic we will get new airlines to service the area.

[xen0blue]

does anyone know if when the wright amendment expires, planes will be able to fly out of love field?

[Speedbump Joey]

Sometime in 2014.

[dfwcre8tive]

does anyone know if when the wright amendment expires, planes will be able to fly out of love field?

Planes are able to fly out of Love Field today, so I don't think it will be a problem then.

[xen0blue]

Planes are able to fly out of Love Field today, so I don't think it will be a problem then.

Sorry, I meant out of the country out of love field

[grantboston]

Sorry, I meant out of the country out of love field

Not allowed under the Wright "compromise." There's a whole thread here on that.

[tamtagon]

Sorry, I meant out of the country out of love field

I'll go ahead an estimate that Love Field will handle flights to at least Canada and Mexico by 2020, plus or minus a couple years. Constructing an international terminal as well as a few more domestic gates will be planned around the same time. Air pollution and noise being the primary constraints to Love Field's commercial passenger volume in a decade.

[grantboston]

^We'll see. I think there will be significantly less political pressure next time this issue comes up.

I do wonder if the current renovation plans for DAL are leaving some space for FIS for international flights. That might be the best current indicator of whether the city thinks international flights are in the airport's future.

[Speedbump Joey]

I do wonder if the current renovation plans for DAL are leaving some space for FIS for international flights. That might be the best current indicator of whether the city thinks international flights are in the airport's future.

I would feel safe in saying yes to this.

[electricron]

I would feel safe in saying yes to this.

International flights from DAL isn't going to happen soon. NYC has four commercial airports, if not more, only one has US Customs. You'll find similar conditions nationally. If anything, you'll find a second freight airport with US Customs, and Fort Worth's Alliance Airport fills that role. To put US Customs into Love Filed will mean having an unprecedented third US Customs facility in the DFW area.

The DAL plans do not include having US Customs facilities at DAL, so stop suggesting it should happen. It's not what the City can afford, but what the Federal government can afford. --- that makes this very unlikely.

The idea that US Customs would man facilities at DAL when DFW doesn't keep them fully busy is ridiculous.

[aygriffith]

DFW will see increased international service with the launch of the 787-8/9 and A350. These aircraft put DFW right on the cusp of direct service to SYD, DXB, DOH, BAH, DEL just to name a few. With carriers such as Aeroflot having 20+ orders on 787's there could be direct flights from DME to DFW in the future.

The expectation that the East Coast is the entry point for all foreign flag carriers into the US will change drastically over the next 10 to 15 years as many of those east coast airports have passed capacity and have frequent delays from capacity and weather.

I think Virgin America and Jet Blue could have a fighting chance if they were to go to DAL.

[Speedbump Joey]

International flights from DAL isn't going to happen soon. NYC has four commercial airports, if not more, only one has US Customs. You'll find similar conditions nationally. If anything, you'll find a second freight airport with US Customs, and Fort Worth's Alliance Airport fills that role. To put US Customs into Love Filed will mean having an unprecedented third US Customs facility in the DFW area.

The DAL plans do not include having US Customs facilities at DAL, so stop suggesting it should happen. It's not what the City can afford, but what the Federal government can afford. --- that makes this very unlikely.

The idea that US Customs would man facilities at DAL when DFW doesn't keep them fully busy is ridiculous.

I didn't say soon and I didn't say should. I said yes in support of the fact that current facility construction and design include future uses. Love Field would primarily serve Southwest as we all know, and if Southwest does gain licensing to operate into Mexico, their operations there would not be significant for a long time.

Now looking at DFW, of course DFW is not fully busy at the moment, and it hasn't been for several years. Remember the global economy that we have been in for nearly a decade and how it has deteriorated? Is DFW dominated by one airline? Yes, and no other airline is going to jump into a market like this unless they can fit a niche like Korean Air, Lufthansa, etc. If you look at Atlanta is dominated by one carrier, but their facilities are at capacity and they are rapidly trying to build for the future, where as DFW was built for the future use. Does it seem a bit of overkill, it can be. But, knowing the fact that American and other international airlines have room to grow there is a positive.

I understand what you are saying and that the possibility of it happening may be remote at the moment, but why can we not hope that we come to that point in 20 or 30 years where Dallas can support two separate facilities?

[electricron]

I understand what you are saying and that the possibility of it happening may be remote at the moment, but why can we not hope that we come to that point in 20 or 30 years where Dallas can support two separate facilities?

To even think that Love Field should be the second facility to support International flights, you must ignore several legal impediments. (1) The new Love Field agreement between Fort Worth, Dallas, SW and AA, (2) Love Field's extremely rich neighborhood activists, and (3) present City of Dallas plans.

There's a reason the new Love Field terminal will have only 25 gates. After 2014, when construction of the new Love Field terminal is completed, there will not be much space left for any expansion. There certainly will not be any space for an US Customs facility. Love Field is not being rebuilt to become an International facility, and I doubt Love Field will be rebuilt again for another 50 years.......

While I'll agree it would be nice to go to Love Field and fly SW Airlines to Europe and Asia, that isn't going to happen. I also don't see SW Airlines flying to Mexico (South America) or Canada from Love Field, even if SW eventually decides to fly to Mexico or Canada in the future. Why? The 25 gates limitation and the nature of having International flights to/from specific airports. First, for a domestic carrier to get permission to land at a foreign airport, you have to provide for a foreign carrier permission to land at your airport. I don't see SW Airlines giving up any of its gates to any Mexican airline at Love Field. Mexican aiirlines already fly into DFW, they aren't going to wish to duplicate efforts at Love Field when they can easily expand services at DFW.

[Speedbump Joey]

To even think that Love Field should be the second facility to support International flights, you must ignore several legal impediments. (1) The new Love Field agreement between Fort Worth, Dallas, SW and AA, (2) Love Field's extremely rich neighborhood activists, and (3) present City of Dallas plans.

There's a reason the new Love Field terminal will have only 25 gates. After 2014, when construction of the new Love Field terminal is completed, there will not be much space left for any expansion. There certainly will not be any space for an US Customs facility. Love Field is not being rebuilt to become an International facility, and I doubt Love Field will be rebuilt again for another 50 years.......

While I'll agree it would be nice to go to Love Field and fly SW Airlines to Europe and Asia, that isn't going to happen. I also don't see SW Airlines flying to Mexico (South America) or Canada from Love Field, even if SW eventually decides to fly to Mexico or Canada in the future. Why? The 25 gates limitation and the nature of having International flights to/from specific airports. First, for a domestic carrier to get permission to land at a foreign airport, you have to provide for a foreign carrier permission to land at your airport. I don't see SW Airlines giving up any of its gates to any Mexican airline at Love Field. Mexican aiirlines already fly into DFW, they aren't going to wish to duplicate efforts at Love Field when they can easily expand services at DFW.

I am not talking about Europe or long range. I am referring that with Southwest being the dominant and pretty much only carrier at Love Field, the 737 that they operate can easily do Canada and Mexico runs from Dallas, thus a area for FIS would not to be very big as they would probably limit their possible international service. Remember, SW is a point to point operator, so they do not need the hub like facilities like AA.

Trust me I understand what you are saying, it is that I have an optimistic view on things.

[PuddinHead]

To even think that Love Field should be the second facility to support International flights, you must ignore several legal impediments. (1) The new Love Field agreement between Fort Worth, Dallas, SW and AA, (2) Love Field's extremely rich neighborhood activists, and (3) present City of Dallas plans.

There's a reason the new Love Field terminal will have only 25 gates. After 2014, when construction of the new Love Field terminal is completed, there will not be much space left for any expansion. There certainly will not be any space for an US Customs facility. Love Field is not being rebuilt to become an International facility, and I doubt Love Field will be rebuilt again for another 50 years.......

While I'll agree it would be nice to go to Love Field and fly SW Airlines to Europe and Asia, that isn't going to happen. I also don't see SW Airlines flying to Mexico (South America) or Canada from Love Field, even if SW eventually decides to fly to Mexico or Canada in the future. Why? The 25 gates limitation and the nature of having International flights to/from specific airports. First, for a domestic carrier to get permission to land at a foreign airport, you have to provide for a foreign carrier permission to land at your airport. I don't see SW Airlines giving up any of its gates to any Mexican airline at Love Field. Mexican aiirlines already fly into DFW, they aren't going to wish to duplicate efforts at Love Field when they can easily expand services at DFW.


Southwest sold their soul in the ultimate pissing match to control Love Field. Designating DFW as the international airport in Dallas, Ft Worth is one price they paid for their insistence to stay at love field.
Besides international flying is the one area that Southwest will not win at. While there is substantial competition in the domestic markets for air travel there is extreme competition in the international markets from both domestic and international carriers.

[LoneStarMike]

There's a reason the new Love Field terminal will have only 25 gates.

Love Field won;t even have that many gates. The old plan was to have 26 gates in the main terminal with another 6 at Legend's Terminal. The new plan limits Love Field to 20 gates maximum.

Anyway - wasn't sure where to post these, but here's some photos taken at Love field during Thanksgiving Weekend and Christmas.

Saturday November 28, 2009

01. Main Lobby. There were a lot fewer people the Saturday after Thanksgiving than there were the Saturday after Christmas.
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL004.jpg


02. West Concourse
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL005.jpg


03. Gate 9 in West Concourse
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL006.jpg


Tuesday December 22, 2009

04. Arriving at West Concourse
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL007.jpg


Saturday December 26, 2009

05. East Concourse
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL008.jpg


06. View of Downtown from plane on taxi-out
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL009.jpg


07. Love Field aerial
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL010.jpg


08. Love Field aerial
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL011.jpg


09. Love Field aerial
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL012.jpg


10. Love Field aerial - terminal & passenger concourses
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff158/LoneStarMike/Airports/DAL013.jpg

[CTroyMathis]

Thanks for the photos, LSMike. Great stuff.

[Speedbump Joey]

It will be nice to see the terminal once this project is done.

[TexasPlus]

This should answer many questions, as well as generate even more new ones. :cheers:

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/

[dfwcre8tive]

This should answer many questions, as well as generate even more new ones. :cheers:

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/

Good find. Here are some of the images from the site:

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/aerial_layout.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/DR5-AERIAL-SOUTH.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/DR5-LOBBY-DEPARTURE.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/ATO.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/BaggageClaim.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/ArrivalLounge.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/StemArrival.jpg?1262894793

[dfwcre8tive]

There are also some great historical photos on that site:

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/1957_ticket_counter.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/1961_ticket_counter.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/1964_airplane_watching.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/1970_love_lobby.jpg?1262894793

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/terminal_parking.jpg?1262894793

[Mballar]

http://www.lovefieldmodernizationprogram.com/images/gallery/StemArrival.jpg?1262894793
I like the fact that they've included a sign that reads "People Mover" in this mock up. I think it's the first time I've seen any type of reference to the DART connection in any of the new designs. Let's hope it means that the plans to add the people mover are indeed moving forward.

[dfwcre8tive]

I like the fact that they've included a sign that reads "People Mover" in this mock up. I think it's the first time I've seen any type of reference to the DART connection in any of the new designs. Let's hope it means that the plans to add the people mover are indeed moving forward.

On the aerial plan, it shows what looks like a people mover station between the Terminal and Bag Claim. If you watch the fly-through video, it also hints at escalators going down in this location.

[tamtagon]

I like the fact that they've included a sign that reads "People Mover" in this mock up. I think it's the first time I've seen any type of reference to the DART connection in any of the new designs. Let's hope it means that the plans to add the people mover are indeed moving forward.

Seeing "People Mover" certainly is encouraging, for a few reasons.

In a couple of years, this small airport will finally be able to take on a much more productive function as it relates to DFW Airport; North Texas air travelers, the local economy and passenger airlines will all benefit as Love Field begins to operate as a supportive airport rather than a competitive airport to DFW.

"Transit oriented development" at the Love Field station might get the overwhelming choice as the best in town with an airport as an employment center and economic activity foundation. The Love Field DART station could easily be the location of Dallas' next big-ass hotel. The urban location is one of the most convenient places to live, too.

Maybe the least tangible, but also one of the most important reasons I like the plan for Love Field is the unfaltering commitment to build Best in Class infrastructure in Dallas. The overall renovation is more than the minimum requirement, and it'll cost is more than is necessary, but keeping the facility on par with "world class" DFW Airport is critical.

[Mballar]

On the aerial plan, it shows what looks like a people mover station between the Terminal and Bag Claim. If you watch the fly-through video, it also hints at escalators going down in this location.
OK. Thanks for pointing that out. I see it now. As hard as the city is pushing DART to construct a (over budget) station underneath the Convention Center Hotel, I certainly hope the Council approaches the Automated People Mover with the same kind of zeal and sense of urgency. I've said it before, but, a Direct Connection to DART Rail at Love Field has always been more important than a station under the Convention Center.

[downtownguy25]

I've said it before, but, a Direct Connection to DART Rail at Love Field has always been more important than a station under the Convention Center.

There is already a dart station under the convention center, think you mean convention center hotel.

[Mballar]

^ Yeah. I meant the Convention Center Hotel. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Speedbump Joey]

I thought the last phase of this project included the Love Field Station to Terminal APM connection.

[cowboyeagle05]

I thought the last phase of this project included the Love Field Station to Terminal APM connection.

Just because it may be listed in a Phase of Love Field redos does not mean it will happen it just means a few people like the idea enough to add it into a overall vision plan. My understanding is that the city has not yet funded the APM project.

[PuddinHead]

Seeing "People Mover" certainly is encouraging, for a few reasons.

In a couple of years, this small airport will finally be able to take on a much more productive function as it relates to DFW Airport; North Texas air travelers, the local economy and passenger airlines will all benefit as Love Field begins to operate as a supportive airport rather than a competitive airport to DFW.

"Transit oriented development" at the Love Field station might get the overwhelming choice as the best in town with an airport as an employment center and economic activity foundation. The Love Field DART station could easily be the location of Dallas' next big-ass hotel. The urban location is one of the most convenient places to live, too.

Maybe the least tangible, but also one of the most important reasons I like the plan for Love Field is the unfaltering commitment to build Best in Class infrastructure in Dallas. The overall renovation is more than the minimum requirement, and it'll cost is more than is necessary, but keeping the facility on par with "world class" DFW Airport is critical.

An unfaltering commitment to build Best in Class infrastructure in Dallas? Well that certainly is a colorful way to describe what a waste of resources this boondoggle project represents. We are actually rebuilding an airport terminal we don’t need!

The people mover sign in the picture?

That sign points to the bus stop for the people mover next to the rental cars and rental parking lots bus pick up areas. They can never build an underground train station at Love Field anyway. They might accidentially tunnel into the secret crypt Southwest is building at Love to make sure that Herb and Colleen can stay at Love Field in perpetuity.

[aygriffith]

They might accidentially tunnel into the secret crypt Southwest is building at Love to make sure that Herb and Colleen can stay at Love Field in perpetuity.

...and it better be a nice crypt too! Or they'll surely move their tomb to PHX or DEN who both have promised a tomb of equal or greater opulence.

Lets all just be happy that our local airline bases seem much more secure than some of the others in the country and we can rightly say that our two airports, which the local economy supports well, will probably continue to be hubs. There are much worse situations to currently be in that may or may not come to fruition... CVG, DTW, MEM, PHX, DEN, CLT, & PHL... just to name a few. Any of those could be the next STL or PIT

[Speedbump Joey]

I am not sure about all the wood paneling.