DTD | Arts District: Hall Arts Tower (Lone Star site) (~50 ST.)

[I45Tex]

Hey folks, I picked up the July "National Real Estate Investor" magazine just now for its Dallas market review and was surprised to find this -- do y'all know about this yet??

Hall is one of the few Dallas developers working both ends of the Dallas North Tollway. Brokers describe the 47-story high-rise he's planning to build at the southern end in downtown Dallas as "stunning." The 1 million sq. ft. project will include office, retail and luxury condo space.



Just so you don't think I'm leaving you hanging, it had been talking about Hall Office Park, and here's the following context:

"Hall calls urban Dallas a tricky market. "Downtown is full of Class B+ buildings with a lot of vacancy, having trouble getting rents of $15 to $17 per sq. ft.," he says. "At the same time, there are buildings like The Crescent in Uptown getting $30-plus rents. From a developer's standpoint, Dallas is treacherous. It's very competitive, with a lot of smart people fighting each other. It has always been very overbuilt, and it will continue to be that way."

Downtown renaissance

Hall's planned tower is in the Arts District, an area at the northeastern end of the central business district (CBD) that includes the Dallas Museum of Art, the Nasher Sculpture Center, the Meyerson Symphony Center and the Dallas Center for the Performing Arts, a $275 million complex under construction.

It's here that Billingsley Co. is moving forward with One Arts Plaza..."

[Kelley USA]

Nice find... Have not heard such specifics- but man, would sure love to see a rendering of this!

[carousel]

Fantastic news!

[Kelley USA]

Just read the full article online- some good info on all of downtown, uptown etc...

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3208/is_47_7/ai_n14815737

[Tnekster]

It has been discussed before on a different thread. His tower will likely go where his foundation for the Lone Star Tower is.

[Kelley USA]

Didn't someone mention they saw some survey crews at the site recently???

Is anyone else worried about the amount of empty space we might end up with? I don't really see companies moving down here to fill this space up. As the article mentioned most of the space will probably be filled by companies relocating from other CBD offices (just a shuffle)...

[BigD5349]

Didn't someone mention they saw some survey crews at the site recently???

Is anyone else worried about the amount of empty space we might end up with? I don't really see companies moving down here to fill this space up. As the article mentioned most of the space will probably be filled by companies relocating from other CBD offices (just a shuffle)...

I've thought the same thing. But, I think as long as it is A-grade office space, we'll be ok. Downtown is choked with a bunch of B-grade office space now.

There might be an uptake problem initially, but prices will adjust, vacancies will decline, and then I hope the market will stabilize and thrive. Dallas needs to build some first class offices to get going again, even if it is somewhat speculative.

I'm more concerned about an over-building of residential.

[WestTexan]

Is anyone else worried about the amount of empty space we might end up with? I don't really see companies moving down here to fill this space up. As the article mentioned most of the space will probably be filled by companies relocating from other CBD offices (just a shuffle)...

I'm very worried about our commerical real estate market. It's all about job growth and it just ain't happening. I think residential is also on the verge of overbuilt, which has a less serious impact than the commercial side.

I posted the following in July. Since then fundamentals have only weakened and the pipeline of new projects has increased:

It's nice to see so much optimism about our local economy on this board and in the press. However, I think if you talk to anyone who closely tracks our local economy, its growth is characterized as moderate/steady, at best. Which is a very healthy growth trajectory over the long-term. But it is not consistant with the current level of real estate developement.

I am still very concerned about job growth, which has finally caught up to the national average, but lags behind the other metros in the state.

According to the Dallas Fed, job growth numbers for the first 6-months of 2005 are as follows:

Texas - 1.3%
Austin - 2.9% (still weak compared to annual growth of 6% from 1998 - 2001)
Houston - 1.5%
Fort Worth - 1.0%
Dallas - 1.0%
Outlook: Stronger growth in the 2nd half of 2005 for all metros.

I know most of you think I'm wrong, but if Dallas' fundamentals (job growth, occupancy rates, and rents) don't improve, the capital markets will pull back and development in the Dallas CBD will grind to an abrupt halt.

[rantanamo]

Why are builders so speculative in Dallas? Especially the stuff about the North Tollway. No preleasing? Is this the "cheap" factor?

Don't think there is an overbuilding of residential. Overbuilding of luxury units, though, I would think. Still compared to other markets, Dallas isn't even close to overbuild. I continue to encourage reading of the construction threads on SSP. What we are thinking of as a boom is merely a blip on the radar compared to what's going on in many other cities. Many of which are smaller and have less wealthy than this area does.

[Lakewooder]

I think we have a very good chance of luring people and companies from California if we can convince them that we are not the backwoods redneck image our politicians project...

[WestTexan]

Why are builders so speculative in Dallas? Especially the stuff about the North Tollway. No preleasing? Is this the "cheap" factor?


In my opinion its a combination of: (1) cheap dirt; (2) the perception this is a high-growth market or will be again soon; and (3) we still have a culture of risk taking and big dreams. Great environment for investors and developers / scary for bankers.

I totally agree that residential overbuilding in more on the luxury side. Isn't there more moderately priced product in other Sun Belt booming high-rise markets?

[WestTexan]

I think we have a very good chance of luring people and companies from California if we can convince them that we are not the backwoods redneck image our politicians project...

Come on...Tom Delay can welcome them to Houston.

[antoinekhuu]

Does anyone have rendering for this project?

[Kelley USA]

At 47 stories- this would sit right in front of the JPMorgan Chase Tower. From the Uptown area or even from Woodall Rogers- I wonder how much of the Chase we'll still be able to see?

[psukhu]

Interesting... Craig Hall put Frisco on the map, as far as office space goes. Like the article says, he's "working both ends of the Dallas North Tollway"

http://www.hallofficepark.com/

[Tnekster]

I heard the Hall project is more and more likely to happen.

[I45Tex]

At 47 stories- this would sit right in front of the JPMorgan Chase Tower. From the Uptown area or even from Woodall Rogers- I wonder how much of the Chase we'll still be able to see?


I've been afraid of that ever since I saw the Lone Star Towers renderings for the first time. I just love Texas Commerce Tower's part of the skyline and can't imagine it not being the edge and anchor that it totally is. All I can say is that 'stunning' had better not mean anything like the Orion going up in Houston... and that if nothing else ...it'll beat what was going to be there originally?

[JFire2]

so there is a 47 tower going up in the arts district?? i was under the impression that the only buildings being constructed was the 7-11 headquarters, 2-3 buildings of no more than 20 stories a piece. :confused:

[msutton]

its not official yet. if it happens, its basically going to be just an updating of this same developer's late 80's plan. At least I think that's the situation. And he has said he wants it tall.

[Tnekster]

so there is a 47 tower going up in the arts district?? i was under the impression that the only buildings being constructed was the 7-11 headquarters, 2-3 buildings of no more than 20 stories a piece. :confused:

This one is not part of the Arts Tower site but just down the street. That area of town...Midtown they call it now...could fill up with towers very quick.

[Kelley USA]

Do we have a photo of the late 80's plan? It's good to see- I thought some of the proposed buildings of the late 80's were awesome!

[tamtagon]

That area of town...Midtown they call it now...could .

Someone please pass a law to prohibit this most vile attempt to call a couple of downtown blocks "Midtown."

[Kelley USA]

^Agree... I see nothing wrong with calling the area "The Arts District".

[CTroyMathis]

Re: Kelley's request.

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7181




Also, here's an unbuilt res. concept by Hall for the site:

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=5125

[BigD5349]

Someone please pass a law to prohibit this most vile attempt to call a couple of downtown blocks "Midtown."

Don't some people refer to the Mockingbird/Central area as "Midtown" ?

For example, my least favorite apartment complex in Dallas calls itself "The Phoenix Midtown".

[barrycb]

Does anyone know if the original Lone Star proposal strattled Leonard st?

[TexasStar]

Wow, so this project has been in the works for about 20 years?
Somebody sure has a lot of patience.

[Tnekster]

Wow, so this project has been in the works for about 20 years?
Somebody sure has a lot of patience.

Well, it was cancelled 20 odd years ago but this renewed interest is probably only a couple years at the most.

[ksig121]

I really hope that the project that is now being developed will not look like that. The last thing we need downtown are a couple of bland-looking towers.(especially if they block the Chase Bank Bldg.) Hopefully whatever is built there will reflect the new character of the Arts District. BTW, I will never call that area "Midtown" :coolcigar

[slfunk]

^ Agree someone was alluding to a quote by Billingsley where she named the Arts District "midtown." I think the closes thing we would have to midtown is the area between Deep Ellum and Uptown off of Haskell. No "real" formal name to that area just some scattered neighborhood names like Bryan's Place.

[msutton]

We put all of our "towns" too close together. I hope eventually they change the name of Uptown and allow the real uptown (Preston Center area) to take that name.

[Kelley USA]

I like the tower on the right better... Could be very appealing if perhaps the exterior was a different color.

[JFire2]

If there is going to be an announcement ... any idea when it might be? I hope the design is nothing like the one from the 80s ... I hope its something modern with a lot of glass - like a minature Freedom Tower.

[drumguy8800]

downtown, uptown.

frogtown.

i think preston center is just a fine name for preston center.

i think the arts district is just fine for the arts district.

if anything would be midtown, it should be south of oak lawn, west of uptown, and it should include victory.. though midtown is just about as bland as downtown and uptown.

I *really* like the name frog town. If people will pay to live in Hell's Kitchen in New York, I think calling something frog town (the area up along the river, maybe?) would be excellent.

For reference.. we discussed in (i think?) the main victory thread the fact that when the Trinity used to swell, frogs would come up to the streets around where Victory now is + farther down near the courthouse and such.. and they called it frog town.

Problematically, there's an area in Los Angeles called 'frogtown.'

Dallas has the suckiest neighborhood names ever.

[AZDallasite]

Wow!!

[rantanamo]

Dallas has the suckiest neighborhood names ever.

Casa Linda, Lakewood, The Cedars, Deep Ellum(as great of a name as any neighborhood in the world I think), Oak Lawn, The Peaks, Kidd Springs, the Kesslers, Oak Cliff, Turtle Creek(great name for where it is) All great names. Like any city, of course there are more generic ones, but most, even though the names have become generic now are all named geographically or from historic areas or farms they were built around.

[X Factor]

Id take something like this...

Id take ony one of these three.. the gold one, the one that shoots light up, or the one with the two old things on top across from the Westin(the circular one) in the far back.

http://patrickphelan.getedged.com/Atlanta/Downtown_Atlanta_Night_1.jpg

Top Lights up Gold at night
http://photos1.blogger.com/img/276/1681/640/Downtown%20Atlanta%20Buidling.jpg

[texman]

Re: Kelley's request.

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7181
I don't think the towers are that bad, but look more office oriented. If you kept the cylindrical design, with added balconies, it might look pretty cool. Dallas would finally get a set of twin towers its always tried for.

[dallashorn]

I have seen a rendering of the proposed building and it definately not based on the 80's plan. It is a very contemporary building that has a little resemblance to the W except it is taller and instead of having the wing at the top it has a small hole similar to the 7 eleven building. That being said, it is much better looking building than 7 eleven and appears to be a very expensive building too.

[texman]

So no more twin towers?

[AZDallasite]

As land prices soar near downtown, surerly we will see more 40+ storty towers develop. Lets reach for the sky.

[dallasag00]

It would be nice to have a building with a crown/spire like Atlanta.

[dallashorn]

So no more twin towers?

I don't think so. However, I would say the rendering I saw showed the building to be narrow floor depths similar to the W. I think this would be because there would be condos on the top half. Seems like the bottom may have been a little wider for better office efficiency. Anyways, I was trying to figure how it would sit on the site and also what land would be left on the site.

[Kelley USA]

Would you consider the building to be "stunning"?

[X Factor]

Dallashorn.. Tell us what you know!!! This is killing me, I cant take not knowing what this is going to look like.

[JFire2]

I have seen a rendering of the proposed building and it definately not based on the 80's plan. It is a very contemporary building that has a little resemblance to the W except it is taller and instead of having the wing at the top it has a small hole similar to the 7 eleven building. That being said, it is much better looking building than 7 eleven and appears to be a very expensive building too.

Is there any way you can post this rendering?

[antoinekhuu]

Based on your description,It seems to be a very nice building.
Does this building have any spires?
How did you get that info?
Is there any chance that we can take a glimpse of what the building is gonna look?

[dallashorn]

Would you consider the building to be "stunning"?

I don't know if it is stunning(to me stunning is the guggenheim in Bilbao), but it definately will reshape the skyline on that side of downtown. As to some of the other questions, I don't remember if it has any spires....I saw it being passed around my office. I don't think I can get my hands on it to put it up on the website, but I will try to get another look at it to see if I can get better details of the building. Also, I really have no clue to where they are in the development process. The plan I saw could be VERY conceptual. Sorry I don't know more on it!

[clipper]

All those spires, crowns, wings and such are just architectural tricks that will date a building. Just like every shopping center built in the 1990s had some kind of clock tower.

[AZDallasite]

You may be right, but I will always love the 2 spires atop the Sears Tower. I tend to think that the actual facade( porportion of glass to steel/stone/concrete & the color of glass) tends to date buildings.