DTD | Arts District: Hall Arts Tower (Lone Star site) (~50 ST.)

[Kelley USA]

I wonder if Ahunt can shine some light on this... If this is true- we have the dumbest city council in the history of city council... Please Ahunt, tell me this is not true!!!

[BigD5349]

^It seems like it's a city staff v. Craig Hall issue...

Maybe this has been discussed before, but does Hall get tax abatements for his office park in Frisco? I'm sure he's playing up the abatement for One Arts Plaza/7-11... but in this case, even the parking garage is already built. It's a head scratcher.

[clipper]

I doubt that the city council had anything to do with this. This kind of thing is just city staff busy work. I don't know what kind of tax abatement Hall talked about, but in general I'm in favor of them if it gets something built. Look at it this way. Right now the value of a vacant lot is minimal. The city isn't getting much revenue. I want to build something and don't want to be taxed on the full amount for a few years. So what? It's not costing the city anything and when the abatement goes off they get instant tax base. Shows how thick headed the people who run this town are. They can't see opportunity when its printed in foot high letters. Their idea of a win win is status quo - nothing happens.

[clipper]

Don't forget Ray Hunt got incentives for his downtown building, too. So we've established that they give incentives. So who do you have to kiss up to to get them?

[clipper]

I've always thought that you could get the political piece of this to go away if you set in law firm guidelines of what's required to get incentives for development - number of jobs, increase in tax base, increase in residential units, etc. etc. If you put the exact requirements into ordinance and made sure that the project met all those thresholds, then a formula could be used to determine how much incentives a deal got. But since this approach makes sense, there's no way the city would do.

[CARTMAN]

:confused: What the hell is going on? I can understand that the City Council had nothing to do with the litigation, but my God don't you think they should have brought this up as an agressive agenda. The Mayor and City Council should have told the City Staff you do whatever it takes to get that parking agreement hashed out. Hint, Hint..... "You're Fired." $200 million is at stake. Again, what the hell are they doing?

[Kelley USA]

^ I agree, even if this is not a city council issue- they have an obligation to step in and say "what the @#*&"...

[hamiltonpl]

http://www.dking-gallery.com/pix/Scrojo2/Asleep_0608.jpg

[MarkL2023]

This article can act as a catalyst for the development though because if its true that the city staff is flat out stupid, that will change as their seniors will hear about it. If theres a lot more going on, expect the city to bounce back with their side of the story and they can hopefully move on from there. Either way, it appears we are one step closer to something actually happening.

[clipper]

I predict this will as Mr. Hall says tie up the property for years of litigation.

[CARTMAN]

I predict this will as Mr. Hall says tie up the property for years of litigation.

Well, hopefully the next Mayor will address this issue, which I think the next mayor will be demanded a more pro active role regardless of whatever city charter we have. If not they (either Leppert or Oakley) can forget about a second term as Ms. Miller unfortunately clinched.

[hamiltonpl]

I predict this will as Mr. Hall says tie up the property for years of litigation.
There isn't enough money at stake for this to be worth years of litigation. Then again, it's not a private law firm, it's the City. So they may invest 500k on a 200k potential recovery.

[FoUTASportscaster]

For those blaming the council, remember that it was the city staff that almost screwed up the Merc deal and LaMi had to step in on that one to save it. It got to the council because it was very public and out there quick. There is a recent history for that. All the city council did was vote on the agreement reached between Forest City and the mayor and her delegation. This is the first time I am hearing about it at this site.

[Tnekster]

This has to be a city staff screw up. Surely the city council would not let a 200m development to south over a stupid parking issue......right?

[dtdresident]

This has to be a city staff screw up. Surely the city council would not let a 200m development to south over a stupid parking issue......right?

Do not underestimate the stupidity and incompetence of this city council. The same bunch of know-nothings that thought:

1. It would be a good idea to turn off the DTD lights at 2AM.

2. It was not worth it to build AA arena as it surely wouldn't spur any further investment into the area.

3. It was not smart to have the most technologically advanced, state-of-the-art stadium with a blue star in DTD. Can you imagine what this would have done for the entire core of the city!!!

This is just a sampling of the non-sensical decision making capability of this inept bunch of public sector clowns. These guys would be canned so fast in the private sector, they wouldn't know what hit 'em.

Oh yeah, that reminds me, where are those Calatrava bridges???

[FoUTASportscaster]

Uhh, dude, the city council had little to do with some of those decisions.

[Tnekster]

Oh yeah, that reminds me, where are those Calatrava bridges???

Didn't construction commence on this today?

[elmstreetdallas]

Well, the entire City Council, with the exception of Angela Hunt, supports the Trinity Tollway as it's currently planned.

That alone places them in the "mentally challenged" category.

[Kelley USA]

Can you imagine this tower, Museum Tower and Corrigan Tower all going up at the same time. That would be magical!

[freewaytincan]

3. It was not smart to have the most technologically advanced, state-of-the-art stadium with a blue star in DTD. Can you imagine what this would have done for the entire core of the city?

Ugh, yes, and it's far from the dreamworld everyone seems to imagine would have happened.

[warlock55]

Ok, you guys are going off on the city without even hearing their side of the story. Would you do the same if the roles were reversed? The entire article was just what Mr. Hall said happened without any investigative reporting or independent verification. They might as well have just put the story on the opinion page.

Maybe before we get the pitchforks and torches we should find out more about what happened?

[TexasStar]

Do not underestimate the stupidity and incompetence of this city council. The same bunch of know-nothings that thought:

1. It would be a good idea to turn off the DTD lights at 2AM.

2. It was not worth it to build AA arena as it surely wouldn't spur any further investment into the area.

3. It was not smart to have the most technologically advanced, state-of-the-art stadium with a blue star in DTD. Can you imagine what this would have done for the entire core of the city!!!

This is just a sampling of the non-sensical decision making capability of this inept bunch of public sector clowns. These guys would be canned so fast in the private sector, they wouldn't know what hit 'em.

Oh yeah, that reminds me, where are those Calatrava bridges???

Talk about slanting the issue!
1. They DID NOT vote to dim the lights, it was only discussed and they said no.
2. I do think the AAC actually got built. At least I'm pretty sure it was.
3. And the council had nothing to do with the loss of that football stadium. That was a Dallas county screw up.

There's probably plenty to bash them about without making stuff up.

[I45Tex]

I've always thought that you could get the political piece of this to go away if you set in law firm guidelines of what's required to get incentives for development - number of jobs, increase in tax base, increase in residential units, etc. etc. If you put the exact requirements into ordinance and made sure that the project met all those thresholds, then a formula could be used to determine how much incentives a deal got. But since this approach makes sense, there's no way the city would do.

Having a formula would probably make sense, but having thresholds would slant support away from incremental improvements that build a neighborhood and towards blockbuster ones whose goals never necessarily carry positive effects proportionate to the big price tag when you compare it to several blocks' worth of small turnarounds done for the same total cost. I would rather see the playing field favor small development and create a climate in which the urban fabric becomes conducive to, and stable for, larger investments that don't have to be paid to come to town, rather than this crazy pattern of trying to fund monuments and hoping they attract neighborhoods. The latter won't even work without a lot of the former, so let's just focus on the former.

$200 million is money, but if either Dallas' cultural class or the upwardly aspirant Dallas-forumer class are taking cues from the large scale and atmosphere of Eastern cities, please remember instead how those places got there: through iteration after iteration of quality small-scale construction, not through the sort of hot-button thing that makes for an exciting thread on Dallasmetropolis and gets people calling names.

[hvresident]

These are the same council members that don't want more security cameras in downtown even though it help cut crime by 38%. The camera project is one of the most innovative ideas ever brought before the city to cut crime and one of the council members response was 'I don't want whitie watching over me at all times'. Are you kidding me...

[amshepar]

other Dallas missed opportunities:

1) Lone Star Park
2) Texas Motor Speedway
3) Minor League Baseball Stadium (by i would debate the merits of this one)
4) Ballpark in Arlington

Now the current council/mayor may not have had direct impact on all of the top 4 but their predecessors paved way for incompetence and lack of city forsight. All 4 of those were considered possibilities for downtown/south of downtown/Fairpark but none of them happened.

With Texas Stadium opening next to the Ballpark in Arlington and the already promised development over there, Dallas is going to need some kind of major, regularly occuring event or revenue producer, to help sustain downtown. Yes they have the mavericks and the stars, but you can't count on those teams to be playing their respective sport in June. That means that come June until October that there is no regular downtown night time activity.

Unfotunately, there are not a lot of alternatives to suppliment what is lost. Arena football, which is currently going on, barely makes a dent in dowtown economic impact. House of Blues seats hardly anyone, same with the Majestic. Bars and Restaurants are great but redundant.

The appeal of living downtown is great but unless new retail/entertainment blood moves in, the demand for condos is going to not increase. I do think the desire to live in "Dallas's tallest condo tower" will help sales, but will people stay downtown when there is nothing to do in the summer time?

[kenc]

Those are not lost opportunities....the correct cities got the correct attractions. We are not just "Dallas", but the entire metropolitan area. The important thing is that we can offer all these attractions to visitors. A horse-race track. An auto-race track. A football stadium. A basketball stadium. Etc.

What we need to worry about is having a transportation system that ties all this together. Freeways, rail, taxis, shuttles.

Sorry to ramble.

[Rob]

These are the same council members that don't want more security cameras in downtown even though it help cut crime by 38%. The camera project is one of the most innovative ideas ever brought before the city to cut crime and one of the council members response was 'I don't want whitie watching over me at all times'. Are you kidding me...

The camera project is one of the most frighteningly Orwellian ideas ever brought before the city.

If you want to cut crime hire more cops and invest in education.

[sogod]

The camera project is one of the most frighteningly Orwellian ideas ever brought before the city.

If you want to cut crime hire more cops and invest in education.

Indeed, it is shameful that anyone would even bring that up.

[hvresident]

^You obviously don't understand how the system works. You have 6-8 cameras that cover about .5 sq miles and 1 person can monitor all of those cameras. They can PREVENT crime before it happens and this allows officers to work more effectively. Additionally, when criminals see the cameras with the large DPD logo, they will think twice before breaking into a car or robbing someone. Cities all across America are developing public safety plans that model what Dallas has already started. It works.

[elmstreetdallas]

Amshepar,

Give downtown a break, and give it a little more time to develop.

Think about this: Come 2009, when every venue in the Arts District has an event going on at the same time, that area will be absolutely packed with people.

Just imagine this Friday night scenario: Late Nights at the DMA (Museum open until midnight), a performance at the Meyerson by the Dallas Symphony, next door a performance at the Winspear by the Dallas Opera, a jazz concert at Annette Strauss Artist Square, a performance by the Dallas Theater Center at the Wyly, and a musical at the City Performance Hall (ok maybe not 2009 for this one).
All in one night.

If every venue were sold out, you'd be talking about 12,000-15,000 people.

I think almost everyone in this forum is underestimating the impact the Arts District is going to have. When these buildings open, there will be press coverage literally from all over the world. Do you really think anyone from London, Rome, Paris, Berlin, Tokyo care even the slightest bit about Texas Motor Speedway, Lone Star Park or the Ballpark in Arlington?

But I can guarantee you that press from those cities, and hundreds of other major cities, will be here in person to cover the opening of these new venues.

A German publication, at the grand opening of the Meyerson, deemed the hall the "building of the century." If the Winspear Opera House even comes close to being of the same quality, which many believe it will, what Dallas will have in the Arts District will be astounding.

[Rob]

^You obviously don't understand how the system works. You have 6-8 cameras that cover about .5 sq miles and 1 person can monitor all of those cameras. They can PREVENT crime before it happens and this allows officers to work more effectively. Additionally, when criminals see the cameras with the large DPD logo, they will think twice before breaking into a car or robbing someone. Cities all across America are developing public safety plans that model what Dallas has already started. It works.

I understand that perfectly.

I also understand that I don't want cameras all over our city looking at every moment of everything. It's freaky and there's a dangerous slippery slope associated with ideas like these. I'll stick with the more cops, more education preference.

[frankchitown]

Do you also understand that this thread isn't about downtown surveillance cameras?

[Rob]

Do you also understand that this thread isn't about downtown surveillance cameras?

I stand corrected. Apparently this thread is about examples of snappy, back-on-topic sarcasm.

[rantanamo]

sorry, we were too busy trying to create exciting threads.

[gshelton91]

I agree i think the Arts District will be a huge attraction for Dallas... not just when things are going on but also the buildings as art... along with the new Woodall Rogers park... I think getting retail now is a key development need in this area to exploit it.

Regarding lost projects -- I would say Texas Motor Speedway was a loss it is so far away but was probably never a good fit for dallas anyway... I think Dallas could do more to make cowboy/rangers stadium and lone star park less of a loss by offering anyone who spends money downtown (restaurant or hotel) free shuttle service direct to the location and back to downtown.

Finally i agree cameras are good... we have huge crime and limited budgets... i don't think cameras are going to drive people away from downtown but crime will... when we get the crime under control we can consider shutting the cameras down... and i think it is relevant to this forum because as cool as the arts district is a few murders will make it empty. in a perfect world i would not want cameras either but given that crime is a project killer what other things are we going to give up to have a cop for every camera.

[tamtagon]

I have a hard time believing the parking issue is the primary reason Hall isnt building yet.

[Lionel Hutz]

My opinion is that Hall was looking for yet another excuse not to get this thing built.

The current strategy in Dallas: when in doubt, blame City Hall. Jerry Jones used it, Silverman used it, Hall is using it. Dallas City Hall is the resident punching bag. Not saying they don't deserve blame for some serious f-ups, but it's the default excuse.

[amshepar]

my intentions in my thoughts were for people to think of how great downtown would already be...if say lone star park, as an example, had opened downtown the same time as it opened in grand praire, all these things that are to be done by 2009 would have already been done. Economically development would have already boomed, as opposed to 2008 when it looks like the development will be at its biggest point.

Downtowns are meant to be destination spots, and the mass transit is meant for people from suburbs to take the train into downtown. That is why in the morning on my way to downtown for work, getting on the southbound trains at Mockingbird station are packed, but the trains headed to garland and plano are not. If everything was downtown, people would be taking the train from the suburbs to downtown to see an event.

I hope that i am wrong and that in 2 years all these proposed buildings are done and people want to be downtown.

[clipper]

I heard some more about the parking thing. Seems that Mr. Hall was wanting to fence off a couple of hundred or so spaces in the garage for the condo owners. That's the only way he could get folks to buy a unit is if they had secured parking. But the people at City Hall are all concerned that there won't be enough parking in the Arts District. I guess they still think this is a suburban style development where everybody arrives by car. Since there are 2000 spaces in that garage I don't see how setting aside a couple of hundred spaces is a problem.

[rantanamo]

If anyone from city hall is reading this, LET THE SPOTS GO with a gurantee of a building. See what happens.

[tamtagon]

If anyone from city hall is reading this, LET THE SPOTS GO with a gurantee of a building. See what happens.

ya, Hall will probably still wait until "the next cycle". Frankly, that's okay with me. I like the idea of saving the prominent Arts District location for development after the Centers for Performing Arts dust has settled and the Woodall Rogers Park is done. Then Hall's building will be more able to enhance the neighborhood. It's like, right now, we cannot really know what we will think the neighborhood will lack. I also want Hall to incorporate a museum into his development, he's a big art collector (and a lot of people say he has a big generous heart).

[Lakewooder]

My opinion is that Hall was looking for yet another excuse not to get this thing built.

The current strategy in Dallas: when in doubt, blame City Hall. Jerry Jones used it, Silverman used it, Hall is using it. Dallas City Hall is the resident punching bag. Not saying they don't deserve blame for some serious f-ups, but it's the default excuse.


Camden is the latest to use the scapegoating scam...

Hall is no spring chicken - does he have enough time to wait for the next cycle? Maybe he should think about his 'legacy' being suburban boxes enhanced by spotty sculpture...perhaps he is holding some sort of grudge since his wife didn't get elected mayor.

[clipper]

Craig is in his 50s. He's not going to die tomorrow. As for the city giving incentives. If the big sticking point was indeed just the parking set aside then the people at city hall need to go back to government 101 and get a clue. If it's more than that, well it would have to be something pretty drastic to kill a $200 million investment in downtown. I understand about being frugal with tax dollars. I've been paying property taxes here since there was an indian's head on the nickel. But I don't want my city reps nickel and diming us out of what will make a bigger tax base for everyone in the future.

[AeroD]

What this is going to come down to is which side is going to blink first.

Both sides want the project albeit for different reasons. But one side wants to come out ahead.

If Hall didn't really want to build in DT, I don't think he would have gone through all this trouble. But yeah, city staff and/or council shouldn't also endanger this is sort of project.

[DFW]

Went by HKS at Mckinney Ave today and noticed that Craig Hall's Art District Tower is back on the model that sits at the lobby, it was removed about two months ago. But it may now look slightly different or turned a different direction. What caught my eyes was that it is now located across Ross Ave on the lot just east of JPM Chase Tower. It looks like Hall is determined to build this tower and wants no part with the city issue on the Lone Star site. I didn’t have my camera with me to take a pic someone needs to go and take some pics.

[berryhill]

Went by HKS at Mckinney Ave today and noticed that Craig Hall's Art District Tower is back on the model that sits at the lobby, it was removed about two months ago. But it may now look slightly different or turned a different direction. What caught my eyes was that it is now located across Ross Ave on the lot just east of JPM Chase Tower. It looks like Hall is determined to build this tower and wants no part with the city issue on the Lone Star site. I didn’t have my camera with me to take a pic someone needs to go and take some pics.

i worked there as a temp summer job in april and may and i became pretty good friends with the guys in the model shop. the models in the lobby are more to display HKS's creativity than to preview upcoming developments. i actually asked several architects and the model shop guys, and that wasn't the first model they've done for the hall site and it won't be the last. in fact, they hate having to do new models of that building because they think it's for nothing. if anyone at HKS thinks it'll get done soon, i didn't meet them.

[TexasStar]

After reading the paper this morning I'm more convinced than ever that Mr. Hall is only interested in developing in the suburbs.
He should sell this high-profile block to someone committed to building in Dallas so he can concentrate on his ventures in Frisco and Richardson.

[rantanamo]

Doesn't he actually live on Turtle Creek in one of the penthouses. I'd say he has plenty of interest in developing the city. It just sounds like a lot of headaches to build in the city. Frisco probably throws incentives at him by comparison, plus the cheap land.

[AeroD]

Doesn't he actually live on Turtle Creek in one of the penthouses. I'd say he has plenty of interest in developing the city. It just sounds like a lot of headaches to build in the city. Frisco probably throws incentives at him by comparison, plus the cheap land.

If Craig Hall has a wife named Kathryn then yeah he lives along Turtle Creek...according to Dallas CAD.

[SubUrbane]

Doesn't he actually live on Turtle Creek in one of the penthouses. I'd say he has plenty of interest in developing the city. It just sounds like a lot of headaches to build in the city. Frisco probably throws incentives at him by comparison, plus the cheap land.

Isn't that comparison between the city and the suburbs true (to some extent) everywhere in the country? How do these other cities do it? Of course, it is not as easy to build in DTD as it is on the former cotton fields of the northern suburbs. Hall has the kind of juice to to help get things moving in downtown. If people like Hall don't step up to the plate and take a few risks, then it is ultimately a hopeless proposition to make downtown something really special and a source of pride for Dallas, and yes, all of the metro area.