Early news on eminent domain in Frisco (Dallas Burn)

[CTroyMathis]

Eminent domain on soccer land imminent

By: MIKE RAYE , Staff writer 08/08/2003
http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=9982691&BRD=1435&PAG=461&dept_id=185173&rfi=6

The Frisco Council voted unanimously Wednesday to declare the city's need for two parcels of land north of Main Street and east of the Dallas Parkway a 'public necessity,' paving the way for the city to exercise eminent domain if the owner refuses final offers to purchase the land.

The city wants the land for the Dallas Burn soccer complex.

Assistant City Manager Scott Young told council members the property is a total of 31.6 acres, and has been valued by an independent appraiser at $3.25 million.

The larger parcel, 29.6 acres, is owned by Sangani Properties, and is appraised at $100,000 an acre, or a total of $2.9 million. The other parcel is owned by Charles Elliot, whose family has long had property holdings in the community. Elliot's two acres have a total appraised value of $350,000, or $175,000 an acre. The Elliots owned much of the land needed for the site, and the city has been successful in acquiring that land from other family members, Young said. Charles Elliot has been a tough negotiator, Young said.

"We're still pretty far apart on the Charles Elliot piece," Young said Thursday. "I hope we can work it out."

According to Young, the city is "a lot closer to a deal" with Sangani Properties for the other acreage, but is nonetheless ready to tender the final offer on that land as well.

Under Chapter 251 of the Texas Local Government Code, the city of Frisco has the independent authority to use its powers of eminent domain to condemn the Elliot and Sangani properties if an agreement cannot be reached on the value of the land and no deal can be struck for the city to buy the property.

The law enables the city to use eminent domain to purchase land when "the governing body ... considers it necessary ... for any ... municipal purpose the governing body considers advisable." There are precedents that land for economic development constitutes a municipal purpose, which would be the case in the planned soccer complex.

Although exercising eminent domain is the city's ultimate legal right, city officials see it as a last resort, and want to exhaust all possible avenues before condemning the properties.

"I hope it doesn't come to that," said council member Tony Felker Wednesday night. "I hope the natural market [price] will prevail."

"We don't want to take landowners' property," said Young. "We have to balance the landowners' interests with the taxpayers' dollars, though. We will make a final offer to them [Elliot and Sangani] and if that is unsuccessful, we will go back to Council and ask for the condemnation of the land under eminent domain."

The $65 million project is a joint venture among the City of Frisco ($20 million), Collin County ($20 million), the Frisco Independent School District ($15 million), and Hunt Sports Group, the owner of the Dallas Burn ($10 million). The facility will feature a 20,000-seat stadium for the Dallas Burn Major League Soccer team, and 17 surrounding fields that could be used by the school district, other Collin County communities and the North Texas Soccer Association. The stadium is to be a multi-use facility that would host concerts, community events, and other entertainment activities. The soccer complex will be a corner kick away from the Frisco Square development, which will feature commercial and residential property surrounding the new Frisco City Hall. The Burn complex will also feature a 600-seat artificial-turf field for FISD soccer competition as well as a natural-grass practice facility for the professional team.

"The spirit of cooperation between the City of Frisco, Collin County and the school district is inspiring," said Dallas native Lamar Hunt, legendary founding father of the American Football League, owner of the Kansas City Chiefs National Football League team, and leader of the Hunt Sports Group, via the Burn's web site. "In all my years in professional soccer, football, and basketball, this is absolutely the most creative partnership I've seen. It also makes tremendous economic sense to jointly develop an all-encompassing facility for use by multiple entities."

Young agreed that the soccer complex will be a bounty for the city.

"Sports are very important to the financial health of Frisco, and we're not just a bedroom community," he said. Young added that the Burn complex and other sports developments in Frisco, such as the Dr. Pepper/ 7Up Ballpark, the Dallas Stars Center, the Superdrome and the Texas Tornado facilities, will work together with retail establishments such as Stonebriar Centre, Frisco restaurants and hotels to serve as little engines driving the local economy.

"All of these businesses work together to make Frisco economically self-sufficient," Young said.

Young said that he does not expect the land purchases to stall the construction of the soccer complex, but prefers that it is resolved quickly.

"We are still in the design phase, still tweaking it," he said. "The sooner we can get started, the better though. We want to start construction in the fall of this year, with a targeted opening day in April of 2005." Young said that the city is estimating a 14-month construction schedule for the project.

[freewaytincan]

You know, if they're going to suburbanize like they are, and abandon Dallas, they shouldn't be allowed to be called the "Dallas Burn". In fact, them building in Frisco gives the verb (a command, actually) form of their name a sickening twist. I feel the same about the Cowboys. They aren't in Dallas, so why should they get to benefit from name recognition?

I know I may sound foolish in saying that, and yes, I realize all the implications of the city name in the team name, but honestly. This is flat out stupid.

[bloodandpopcorn]

I hate to be mean spirited, but I hope that the Frisco move kills the Dallas Burn. Most of their fans live in south dallas, and, I bet, will not make the drive. The team is frankly not all that good, anyway, and if they are deserting their namesake, then it suits them right to fail. The cowboys are not quite so bad, they're still very close to the city. Dallas Burn will practically be in another world, and a world that I have no desire to enter. I've recently made a decision to go past the Bush turnpike only for one thing - Plano Repretory Theater (quite possible the best small-scale theater group in the suburbs, in my opinion). Everything else up there just depresses me.

[mikedsjr]

Can someone explain to me how eminent domain is a good thing at all?

[Quiz03]

Its good so a city, school district, DART can acquire needed property to build a school, hospital, parks etc etc. Its only used when the entity that owns that land cannot agree on an adequate price with whomever wants the land. The use is supposed to serve the public purpose but that can be a very loose definition at times ie your mall you bitch about

[mikedsjr]

So this stadium they are going to build is worth eminent domain? It doesnt serve the public needs at all for purposeful needs.

Would the City of Dallas use eminent domain to put the Cowboys on a major corner of downtown Dallas freeways, if there is something in there way?

[freewaytincan]

Originally posted by mikedsjr
So this stadium they are going to build is worth eminent domain? It doesnt serve the public needs at all for purposeful needs.

Would the City of Dallas use eminent domain to put the Cowboys on a major corner of downtown Dallas freeways, if there is something in there way?

Yes, beauracracy beyond belief and millions of hours of paperwork.

Not to mention the fact that for some reason, whenever Dallas tries to do something positive, they're shot down. Why do the 'burbs get away with everything?!

Ugh, it's just so disgusting. And Frisco types are the ones who claim that it's "nicer in every way".

[mikedsjr]

To me this is land abuse.

[bloodandpopcorn]

No kidding! this is NOT the purpose of eminant domain... If a city tried to do it with some other entertainment venture, i.e. movie theater, etc., they would be completely shot down. But because this is sports (and because this is Frisco) people just love it.

[mikedsjr]

Under Chapter 251 of the Texas Local Government Code, the city of Frisco has the independent authority to use its powers of eminent domain to condemn the Elliot and Sangani properties if an agreement cannot be reached on the value of the land and no deal can be struck for the city to buy the property.

The law enables the city to use eminent domain to purchase land when "the governing body ... considers it necessary ... for any ... municipal purpose the governing body considers advisable." There are precedents that land for economic development constitutes a municipal purpose, which would be the case in the planned soccer complex.


They need to get this Chapter 251 reworked to help the abused people of this law.



Although exercising eminent domain is the city's ultimate legal right, city officials see it as a last resort, and want to exhaust all possible avenues before condemning the properties.


Cut the BS.




"We don't want to take landowners' property," said Young. "We have to balance the landowners' interests with the taxpayers' dollars, though. We will make a final offer to them [Elliot and Sangani] and if that is unsuccessful, we will go back to Council and ask for the condemnation of the land under eminent domain."


When the country becomes a booming suburb of a big city, the original residence get their -ss kicked by the Solid Gold Boots of the Rich.

Sure, they are concerned about their residence. The residence who give them more money. Oh the farmer. You don't make that much so GET OUT!



Young agreed that the soccer complex will be a bounty for the city.


All wishing favor say 'aye'.

[freewaytincan]

Originally posted by mikedsjr
When the country becomes a booming suburb of a big city, the original residence get their -ss kicked by the Solid Gold Boots of the Rich.

Sure, they are concerned about their residence. The residence who give them more money. Oh the farmer. You don't make that much so GET OUT!
[/B]

I totally agree. And it's those types of developers who don't care, but will do anything for more money. Like a lot of arms dealers with terrorists. The cause doesn't matter, the destruction the terrorists cause doesn't matter, but hey, they got their money. Same principle, in terms of land abuse. That's what it is, and it harms us all. I have heard of cases of farmers and rural landowners being threatended, injured, or even killed by "associates" of some unscrupulous developers.

But hey, they've got mindless suburban sheep with non-existent money to deal with! Can't be bothered with ethics in that case.

[FriscoRocks]

Ok, you guys cant keep knockin the city that rocks without equal representation.

Mindless sheep? Want to compare Dallas' education level with that of Frisco? Do you know that Frisco is made up of people, mostly mid and upper level executives from around the US and the globe? This is not an anomaly up here, its happening because this is where people want to live.

I work in downtown Dallas because that is where my job happens to be. I chose to live in Frisco and commute because:

1. I have kids - Dallas schools are a joke.
2. I like to keep my car in alignment, cant do that in Dallas.
3. I dont want to be panhandled when I simply want to go to Target.
4. I like my taxes low and my services exemplary.
5. I do not want my city council meetings sounding like a race riot.
6. Dallas is not an international city - as those in the loop like to call it. Give it 20-30 years.

The growth is heading north, and always will. I hope Dallas infills nicely, I do believe we need a strong downtown. However, Frisco is where I chose to raise a family. If that does not fit into your urban plan for Dallas - too bad. I do not travel south of the BUSH pike unless I absolutely have to.......Go Frisco Burn!
-wouldnt be surprised if the Cowboys move here....

[freewaytincan]

Hey pal, I am one of those kids, just like the kind who will be around your kids. Your childrend will undoubtedly reject many of your values, as many generations have, and I have reason to believe that mine (and I would guess that I could include your kids in mine? I'm seventeen...) will be the one to rise up against the way of life that you, your parents, and your parent's parents made for themselves. It was a noble experiment, I give them that, it was worth a try, but suburbanism has failed.

And if your children fail to see the light and fall into the trap, may they have my sympathies.

In short, sir, though I do not mean to offend you as an individual...
FRISCO REALLY SUCKS.

Just wanted to make sure that all the sprawl out there got full and total credit for making just one more part of my life completely miserable.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Dallas is not an international city? Please explain to me, then, why in Japan when American cities are mentioned the names you hear are basically only these four: New York, LA, San Fran, Dallas, Chicago?

Do you know just how many private schools are in the Dallas City limits? people seem to fail to realize that we have what is, I believe, the second or third highest density of private schools in a city in the nation. Yes, Dallas public schools aren't that good. But our private schools rank consistantly top of hte nation. Far higher than private schools in the suburbs. St. Mark's School of Texas, maybe 8 miles north of DT, often ranks in the top 3 private schools of the country.

You know what Frisco promotes? Not safety, not wordliness, but blind coservatism and pollution. I'm glad you enjoy your life there, burning fuel, and staying in your cookie-cutter world. I enjoy walking around Dallas, even on occasion heading in to seedier areas, and starting conversations with people on the street who seem to have nothind in common with me. Perhaps your public schools are better than mine, but I am exposed to more. You may have booksmarts, but we have far more opportunites to gain a true understanding of people 100% different from ourselves.

Frisco steals business from the rest of the Metroplex. You think that's fair and healthy? draining out other cities but allocating money that SHOULD be going to public transportation and saving our air/environment in order to lue business from just a few miles down the road? Oh, you all are wonderful neighbors, let me tell you.

I'm sorry to be so cruel. This is really just my deepest inner feelings towards the suburbs coming out against one person, and I do apologize. You're probably a wonderful person who just, for some reason I'll never unerstand, prefers a Frisco life. So as personal as this may seem... please don't take it so personally, as this is my venting against outer-rim suburbs in general, not any person in specific.

[freewaytincan]

Don't mean to nitpick, but blind conservatism isn't conservatism at all. Neither is blind liberalism, or pretty much blind anything, if you really stop and think about it. Really, most of the time, it's just stupidity, it's sheep, lemmings. It's not political, it's just wrong.

[dire_straits]

Mindless sheep? Heck yeah you are! That is why a bunch of white collar pigs all flock to outer ring suburbs! How can you possibly compare Frisco's education level to Dallas'?!?! There are actually people from different racial and economic levels in Dallas than in Frisco. You have people in Dallas that do not make as much as you do! Did you ever think of that? Maybe, just maybe, there are some people that can't afford to go anywhere but El Centro, but, hell, at least they are motivated to move themselves up in this world. Not everyone in north Texas went to an expensive school, if school at all. And hey, if you didn't have these "uneducated people" (which is something you imply, who would clean up your shit for you? Who would wait your tables? Hmmm? You said it yourself, "Do you know that Frisco is made up of people, mostly mid and upper level executives from around the US and the globe?" No one WANTS to live in Frisco, they do so because they are selfish land-rapers like yourself.

Now lets address your points, one by one.

1. I have kids - Dallas schools are a joke.

It was suburban trash and your "white flight" that made the DISD schools, not to mention New York, Boston and many others what they are today.

2. I like to keep my car in alignment, cant do that in Dallas.

Why drive? Public transporation is not just for weirdos....you think that businessmen in NYC drive to work. HA! You see more suits on trains in the northeast than bums!

3. I dont want to be panhandled when I simply want to go to Target.

Boo-hoo. What, are you afraid of people that are not just exactly like you?

4. I like my taxes low and my services exemplary.

I like this, I like that. I want, I want, I want.

5. I do not want my city council meetings sounding like a race riot.

Here's a crazy idea....move to Dallas and <GASP!>, GET INVOLVED IN CITY POLITICS, MORON!

6. Dallas is not an international city - as those in the loop like to call it. Give it 20-30 years.

So what does that make Frisco? Oh yeah, the outer fringes of society where nothing of note ever happens.

Why do we need a strong downtown, since Frisco is obviously Shangri-La of north Texas. You have every right to raise a family wherever you choose, that is your right as an American. If you want to rape the planet, that is your perogative. There are just some of us who are obviously more enviromentally-conscience than you are. Oh yes, and one more thing. Praise God you stay outside "the loop" whenever possible. We don't need your kind fouling up our environment.

[freewaytincan]

Again, to add something here...

Not only did the actions of irresponsible developers and pseudowealthy white collar workers destroy the cities, and also the wide open spaces in the country, what about the small towns that the subdivisions were buildt around? You know, the little town of Frisco used to be nice little place, with some charm, but that all changed around 1960, I am told. The suburbs started growing south of it, and it couldn't compete. Neither could the independent farmers. And what do you know, now they are pushed out by greedy developers that amount to no more than mobsters, or old movie gangsters. It's really quite sad, what happened to little towns like Plano, Frisco, and McKinney. Now I see it happening to Van Alstyne. If it happens to that wonderful little town, I will have a very hard time getting over it.

Don't let it happen again.

[CTroyMathis]

Hmmm.

Well this is getting interesting...

[FriscoRocks]

Dire Straits

You know nothing about me or anyone in Frisco. By the way, I went to a state university & paid my own tab.

Regardless of where you live in Dallas (assuming that's where you live) it was once an open field. At some point, the land you live on was developed. So, in effect, we have all raped the land. Oak Cliff was once a suburb.

Is urban sprawl out of control? Yes.

Should Frisco use eminent domain for a soccer complex? I dont think so, and neither do many of the good folks that live here.

Will Frisco use eminent domain for the soccer complex? Yep, because there is a lot of money behind the effort.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Forgive me if I don't understand your logic, but, it seems to me you are indirectly saying "Frisco is a wonderful place to live because the city does whatever money tells it to do, regardless of how it's citizens feel." Doesn't seem like my kind of city...

[dire_straits]

Actually, I know several people from Frisco, and they are all suburban trash, just like what you are representing yourself as. And as for where I live, I only lived in Richardson long enough to be raised by my parents, as soon as I could get out, I did. I now live in Huntsville (but I am not in prison), and live on an open field....about as far away from suburbia as you can get. My house is actually located in the Sam Houston National Forest, on 3 1/2 acres, in a house who's original section was built in 1890. All but the immediate area around my house is still all natural. I do not live in a mini-mansion with zero lot lines 30 miles away from a cities urban core. Oak Cliff was ONCE a suburb? Maybe I am being thick, but it was a suburb that was annexed by Dallas. I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make.

[FriscoRocks]

dire : are you saying your parents, in effect, were (are) suburban trash? Oh, maybe you were just suburban trash until you moved, huh? Take the education and run.....

Actually, you are hypocritical in the fact that you live in a forest, taking up space that was once forest - regardless of when that was. According to your own logic, you are raping nature. Are you suggesting that everyone live in the urban core? If so, where is that, within the LBJ loop, Northwest Hwy loop? Downtown freeway loop?

B&Popcorn : what I was trying to get across was that just because the media portrays all the development in Frisco as being supported by the city, do not make the broad generalization that everyone here supports it. Much like the AA center, many people opposed the soccer stadium. However, money runs Texas. The very things you criticize Frisco for is actually how Dallas was built. Rich developers and bankers ran Dallas and built what they wanted to build. Northpark was a cotton field 35 years ago. Should development have stopped there?

Give people a reason to move into a large city and they will come back. Dallas needs better schools, larger lots, better services and lower taxes.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Larger lots? That makes great sense, doesn't it, taking up lots of land in already dense areas. If the percentage of people in Frisco in support of the Soccer complex is that same of the percentage of people in Dallas in support of the AAC, then I mis-understood what you said. I took your "many" to mean near or around half of people. Dallas had pretty damn good support for AAC.

Money plays a role in everything, yes, but I would take a gander to say that at least right now, Frisco is playing far more to money than Dallas is currently. Dallas citizens are, and this is rather remarkable, beginning to take pride in the city. I honestly didn't expect that to happen, but I see so many of my friends now going out on the town and proclaiming Dallas' wonders. You didn't see that 5 years ago, or even 3 years ago.

FriscoRocks, when was the last time you were in Uptown or main street or the West End? You may want to go down there sometime soon on a Saturday night or something. Or Deep Ellum. The ammount of activity going on there, the ammount of fun to be had, is more than enough reason to bring alot of people back in towards that.

Low taxes are not the key to everything. Dallas' sales taxes provide us with something Frisco will (probably) never have - a good public transportation system. One that led a group of people from Boston the other week to comment (excuse the paraphrasing) "This system really impressed me. I haven't seen something this well put together anywhere outside of hte Northeast or Chicago. It's sinage, pricing, and ammount to do on the rail line is really staggering, maybe better than our own". This was four or five bostonians talking to each other. Not trying to be nice to anyone, but real thoughts on the subject. I can get around dallas, with my $40 monthly pass, without using a car, to basically all the places worth going. No gas, no pollution, no wear-and-tear on my car, and it doesn't matter that our roads weren't built last week. Our property taxes allow us a privallage - a privillage of living in a place of far higher diversity, class, density, and opportunity than Frisco will ever offer anyone.

[dire_straits]

Actually, I'm not raping nature, because you don't see houses in the forest tearing down acre after acre after acre of trees to build single family homes. It may not be the most practical way to live, or the densest, but at least it is more traditional way to live and a little more considerate of the land.

And, I never said all suburbs are bad. There have been suburbs as long as there have been cities. I don't mind first ring suburban developments like Oak Cliff, Richardson, Garland, etc....what I have a problem with is when you drive 30 miles north of downtown Dallas and you are still seeing the same stuff you saw twenty miles back, say like Frisco, Rockwall, Greenville. Those are the areas I have problems with.

[FriscoRocks]

Our property taxes allow us a privallage - a privillage of living in a place of far higher diversity, class, density, and opportunity than Frisco will ever offer anyone.

I agree with all your points B&P, but your missing my entire reason for posting. These issues do not attract many people with a large family. I do not want diversity for diversity's sake. You can have your density - leads to higher crime rates. Class? Well, I guess its what you see as class. I dont see race riots or police scandals as classy. If you are talking arts, I'll give you that.

By the way, I ride the train every other month from Plano to downtown. I go to Uptown/Deep Ellum/DTown at least twice a week for lunch. But in the end, I dont want to live in Dallas. I get out of town as fast a I can every day so I can mow my lawn.

peace

[gc]

direstrait and friscorocks...welcome to the forum.

Now, this is out of control. seriously. I will try to put together some coherent thougts, bear with me.

Dallas is not perfect and I don't think anyone pretends it is. Is Dallas an expensive city with high taxes, yes. That is normal when you have a big international city wtih a large population, period (i.e. look at New York, Chicago, San Francisco, LA, etc). Dallas is international....not to the degree as other citites, but it has plenty of international appeal...believe it! Could the services be better in Dallas, yep without a doubt. Are the Dallas public schools in poor shape, yep. That problem has been identified and is being worked on....it takes time. At one time, Dallas public schools were great and the residents allowed it to worsen. We need more people who care about the schools in city to do things to make it better, instead of miving away and critisizing it. Are the roads bad here in Dallas, yep. That too is something that IS being worked on as we speak. It takes time and money to fix soooooo many streets. Roads deteriorate with age and traffic. Let's move on. Does Dallas have panhandlers, yep. So does frisco, Plano, Richardson, Irving, Arlington, Fort Worth, etc. It is a problem I agree.

Many of the problems that exist in Dallas do not exist in Frisco for several reason, but mainly one - SIZE. For example, roads, taxes, schools, to name a few. The bigger the city and the larger the population....the solutions to these problems become more complex to deal with. There is no simple fix....exept to move away and wait for those problems to catch you....which they will. As Frisco grows, it too will experience it's share of problems. Frisco is not perfect either.

Also, there is nothing wrong with living in the suburbs. In fact, I think it is nice living in the burbs. Are you gonna go to the cornfields of Nebraska and tell a farmer that he is suburb trash? No. He cares little for the 'city' as many of us care little about his town. You get my point. We should respect the choices of those people who choose to live in the suburbs as I hope they respect our decision not to live in the suburbs.

anyhoo, i have rambled long enough. Let's try to be a bit less abrasive with our debates!

woohooo i am done.......

[bloodandpopcorn]

Originally posted by FriscoRocks
Our property taxes allow us a privallage - a privillage of living in a place of far higher diversity, class, density, and opportunity than Frisco will ever offer anyone.

I agree with all your points B&P, but your missing my entire reason for posting. These issues do not attract many people with a large family. I do not want diversity for diversity's sake. You can have your density - leads to higher crime rates. Class? Well, I guess its what you see as class. I dont see race riots or police scandals as classy. If you are talking arts, I'll give you that.

By the way, I ride the train every other month from Plano to downtown. I go to Uptown/Deep Ellum/DTown at least twice a week for lunch. But in the end, I dont want to live in Dallas. I get out of town as fast a I can every day so I can mow my lawn.

peace

I guess I can, if not understand, accept this stance... I mean, yeah, suburbanites exist all over the country. It just really has always disturbed me just how many and how widespread suburbanites are in DFW. I do respect your right to a large lot with a big lawn (you can acutally get those in Dallas, too, though you have to be rather insanely rich nowadays... but GOD those places are so beautiful! I'm sure you've seen them, but if you haven't, take a drive over to the inwood area between northwest highway and forest lane... almost every place you'll see looks like a kind of paradise), though I personally would hate having to go out and mow a large parcel of land every day.

This is kind of beside the point, but something I wonder -- what do you think of Frisco et.al. "stealing" business from their neighbors? It seems to be more of a problem between suburbs than between say Dallas and Frisco, but it's a problem for all of us in my view. Would you personally rather there be money allocated so that you could take a train from near your house (instead of driving all the way to the plano station) to other areas of hte metroplex instead of grabbing business from neighbors and getting neighbors upset, etc.? No right answer, I guess, just wondering how you as a "real" Frisco man feel. I'd venture to say most people on this board are from the city or inner-suburbs, so, even if it's a bit unfair you are kind of our connectino to the minds of the outer-rim. hahaha.

I guess large familes like yours are just impossible draws for the city of Dallas now? We've moved far beyond a size where affordable large lots are available. The only remotely affordable things in Dallas now are smaller lots, moving towards zero lot lines, etc. There are lots of families here, particularly in what's known as the "Preston Hollow" area (just north of university park between northwest highway, central, the tollway, and 635). Eventually this will all probably be low-rise apartments/condos or at the very least townhomes, but even then I think many families will choose this... Just different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[mikedsjr]

I like the Suburbs somewhat, myself. Especially since i grew up in one. What i don't like about the suburbs is that they just keep spreading like a weed. It shouldn't be called surburban sprawl, but suburban weeds.

[freewaytincan]

Originally posted by mikedsjr
I like the Suburbs somewhat, myself. Especially since i grew up in one. What i don't like about the suburbs is that they just keep spreading like a weed. It shouldn't be called surburban sprawl, but suburban weeds.

No, because the term "weeds" is subjective, because, after all, many of those "weeds" out there in our grassy areas are the native plants...

How about suburban scum, slime, crud, crap, s***, sewage, the human virus, etc?

[JaeTex]

I started skimming when the name calling started, so maybe someone else came to the defense of DISD (though I doubt it).

As a product of DISD schools I think they can do a decent job. Admittedly I was in the magnet program and any success I had is probably 1% me, 98% mom and dad, and 1% school district. My classmates went to Stanford, MIT, and Harvard (one now teaches in the B-school there), and some of us did even better and went to UT Austin. Now again they all had really good parents. Dallas schools get a bad rap, in part because they have a bad rap. No one believes me when I defend Dallas schools. The truth is its the parents of the kids who will determine how much the kid learns whether it's in Dallas or Frisco. Parents today are too lazy to take the interest in their kids that the kids need, and if that's you then it doesn't matter what school district you are in because your kid will lose out (e.g. kids shooting up schools, teen pregnancy and Plano heroin deaths).

White flight, and that is what started the whole mess even if that fact offends our modern sensibilities, gutted DISD and as soon as people left DISD schools they started trashing them. I wonder will people soon start dissing Plano as it becomes less exclusive, and when Dallas reaches Oklahoma will Frisco schools also be similarly bad-mouthed?

P.S. I know DISD has its problems, so don't accuse me of being crazy for the foregoing.

[rantanamo]

I will defend DISD along with you. I'm not a DISD product, but many of my friends at UT did. They were excellent, well adjusted students just like anyone else there. My own little sister is in the magnet program, and my parents think the schools themselves are just fine. The question is why does DISD get a bad rap. Here are my thoughts

a.) Test Scores. For whatever reason, this is probably 50 or 60% of what one uses to say DISD is bad. Do test score really say anything about preperation or curriculum execution? I say no. I think they say more about parental support, socio-economics, and circumstance. Sociology says this, and I tend to agree. Compared to a much less diverse suburban school district DISD would have much larger numbers of disadvantaged students. That may mean poor, illegal immigrants, homeless children, and children from violent areas. I'm not saying any are excuses, but I'm saying they are an obstacle. And when you have a culture such as ours, the difference between haves and have-nots become a psychological problem. This is not racial at all to me. Happens in inner-cities and rural communities.

b.) Racial Make-up. Whether we admit it or not, we attach stereo-types and expectations based on race. DISD may be viewed as too hispanic or black which might be intimidation or create a picture of non-successable schools. I'm sure many would deny this, but it's a factor. The racial make-up of DISD vs the racial make-up of Dallas show this.

c.)White-Flight. Of course this is mentioned as a beginning cause, but I think it has created a domino effect. A family moves to the area, and everyone who has "flown" themselves tell the new family that DISD is horrible, causing the new family to stay away. OR if they really love Dallas proper, they send their children to private school. Even when there are schools right in their neighborhood they still don't associate the school as being worthy of their children despite it being surrounded by multi-million dollar homes. Now that is what I call an image problem.

d.) Desegregation ruling. I've heard this discussed by many, and they hated the idea of their kids being bused. Well now it's over. Let's see the true colors of those who pulled their kids out because of it.

e.) Television. I absolutely hate, I mean hate it when the DISD school board is shown on tv. They are portrayed in such a negative light because you see bickering and power plays. Well, I have been a regular attendie of school board meetings everywhere I have lived, and you always have power struggles and bickering. You'd never see it reported from Plano or say Conroe on the fight over the new stadiums. You'd never see but a blurb about the South Garland confederate flag issue, inwhich the parents and many school board members were absolutely awful and deserved exposure. I hate that.

OK, enough rant from me. I just hate seeing the schools not supported by the wealthy and middle class citizens of this city. The school could be percieved and perform as well as they'd like.

[gc]

hey urban, I can now see why you have been banned from the Skyscraper Forum. relax!

[Kelley USA]

Hello FriscoRocks!

Fear not- I have been a member of this board for some time and I agree with just about everything you have stated... You just have to understand that you're talking to people who beleive that urbanism is the way to go and that all of DFW should revolve around downtown Dallas... As much as I love Dallas and want to see it do well- I would NEVER raise a family in Dallas proper. I happen to like Frisco- and as a citizen of Euless- I'm starting to think that the people of Dallas are jealous of what Frisco and Plano have and what they continue to develop... I went to a RoughRiders game a few weeks ago and had a blast- you surely can't find anything even close to that in Dallas. I lived in Uptown for 2 years and couldn't wait to get out. I could find better shopping in the burbs (not to mention in a nicer cleaner atmosphere)- and don't get me started on grocery shopping... Heck- I couldn't even wash my car without several homeless people wanting to know if they could dry off my ride for a few bucks... Give me nicer, newer, cleaner, safer and cheaper (THE BURBS)!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. Urban- I appreciate your passion but I certainly don't agree with you. I'm willing to bet that a vast majority of kids your age would choose to live in the burbs if given a choice.

[dire_straits]

Of course kids Urban's age would choose the 'burbs. It's all they know. They are afraid to get out of their comfort zone....not to mention total brainwashing by adults around them that say "people of different colors and different socio-economic backgrounds are bad. You should never think of your fellow man, you should never help someone out who might be less fortunate than you are." Given total bias of anything not "white-bread" shown by people in Frisco, I have to say, I'd feel better hanging out in the most run-down areas of Oak Cliff or Fair Park.

[mikedsjr]

Originally posted by rantanamo
I will defend DISD along with you.

e.) Television. I absolutely hate, I mean hate it when the DISD school board is shown on tv. They are portrayed in such a negative light because you see bickering and power plays. Well, I have been a regular attendie of school board meetings everywhere I have lived, and you always have power struggles and bickering. You'd never see it reported from Plano or say Conroe on the fight over the new stadiums. You'd never see but a blurb about the South Garland confederate flag issue, inwhich the parents and many school board members were absolutely awful and deserved exposure. I hate that.


Oh, blame it on television. Its the media's fault that everyone can see the bickering that has gone on. Blame it on the media that their last two Superintendants where evil slime.

I think the new superintendent is doing a great job for what he has. He is working hard. I don't here as much negative as i used to.

And i am a product of white flight. Does that make me bad or my parent's bad?

[Kelley USA]

dire_straits-

Perhaps you didn't get enough love as a child!! I'm not sure what your parents taught you- but I certainly was never brainwashed as a child. I give teenagers more credit than you I guess- but I do find it funny that once these kids go away to college and have time to develop their own minds- they still choose to come back and live in the suburbs (or I should say a majority of them do)... How many people on this message board can honestly say they are going to raise a family in downtown or Uptown? How many on this message board are going to move to the burbs when it's time for junior to start school?

But if you think that parents today are walking around spouting of this garbage: "people of different colors and different socio-economic backgrounds are bad. You should never think of your fellow man, you should never help someone out who might be less fortunate than you are" then you've got bigger problems. If you honestly believe that they makes you no better than they are...

[mikedsjr]

And another thing. What the people in Frisco have in their schools is all due to money. It has nothing to do with the values of the people in their town. For all i care, there may not be a morally sound person who lives in Frisco.

And outside of the school issue, i agree with Urbanlandscape. But i have to let you know Urban. i used weeds because people hate weeds. And people don't want wildlife in their natrual habitats living around their snobby prestine homes with ultra snooty man-made beautiful landscaping. Therefore wildlife is a weed to them.

There.

I offended both.

[dire_straits]

Then what the hell is this? "Heck- I couldn't even wash my car without several homeless people wanting to know if they could dry off my ride for a few bucks... Give me nicer, newer, cleaner, safer and cheaper (THE BURBS)!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

What the hell is that? So what if a guy is just trying to make a couple bucks. That right there is total selfishness. "I am better than everyone else, I don't have to help out others in need." I mean, you are from, as I said before, the "Shangri-La of North Texas", you must be rolling in cash! Oh wait, you live in a mini-mansion and you have two car payments and a bunch of other s*** to pay for. You are up to your eyeballs in debt because you spend beyond your means. That is something that was born right out of the suburbs.

[bloodandpopcorn]

First of, mikedsjr, that last post made me very happy!

in response to your question in the second to last post, I would say it makes your parent's bad. ;-). While there is a bit of a humorous tone in my mind for that statement, to an extent, I do feel it is also slightly serious. It doesn't make them evil, certainly, but it does make them not-good, not a help, and I define things that aren't good, bad. So, if that makes any sense at all, you may get my point... and if not I'm sorry for any headaches I may cause.

frankly, KellyUSA, what dire_straits is fairly right. No half-decent parent would say it to their kids, so, since we're in texas, probably only a small percentage, maybe 5%, of kids in suburbs acutally get words like that, but it's shown to them. When parents "talk down" about beggars or the homeless, when they flee areas where they live because they are disturbed, or frightened, or something (I personally don't understand it), words aren't necessary. Kids can see it. Providing children with an environment diverse in people (and goods) is every bit, if not more, important than providing them with a school system that has a good record. It allows you to better understand and deal with people. It's really funny on DART trains, becuase it's pretty easy to tell suburbanites from city dwellers. When someone in clothes that may not have been washed very recently makes a comment, or a joke, etc. on the train/elevator, you see a few people laugh/respond and a few people scowl. Regardless of race. At stations in the city of dallas, the percentage of people who laugh or continue/start a conversation with the joker is much higher than if you start going up into richardson/plano (where you still see jokesters from time to time). You can really easily tell the people from the city apart from the suburbanites who've come down "to the depths of hell" to visit urbania. They're the scowlers.

If you want a big piece of land, if that's your family dream, then the suburbs make some sense. But if you want your children to be the most well-rounded and understanding of people, the city is a much better place to raise kids. Which is why I fully plan to raise mine in a diverse urban environment, with opportunities everywhere at their figertips, including volunteer opportunites to help those people that suburbanites run from.

[gc]

Again guys, this is getting out of control.

KelleyUSA, I am surprised at your sudden change of heart. Wasn't it you that said a few months back that you were seriously interested in moving back to the Uptown area with all the new developments? If not, I apologize. I must have been thinking of someone else. Didn't you also join us for or first meeting? What has happened that made you change your mind (not that they are wrong...so don't get offended)? Again, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the burbs. My only beef with the suburbs (small as is), is that they undercut the big cities to gain big businesses. That seems to defeat the purpose of living out in the quiet, safe, clean, and serene suburb. that is my opinion though.

[Kelley USA]

I certainly hope you weren't on the debate team- because your arguments have no merit!!! So let me get this straight- because I get tired of being approached by the homeless asking for money that makes me selfish? That's the dumbest thing ever written on this board... I prefer to give my $$ to the church instead of the guy on the street who doesn't really want to work for a living... I guess the Dallas City Council and mayor Laura Miller are selfish because they outlawed panhandling... It's a nuissance!!

As for me- I'm certainly not in debt!!! To find people in debt- you need look no further than all the kiddos living in Uptown paying $900 for a one bedroom apartment while driving a luxury car they can barely afford!!!

[dire_straits]

I am going out on a limb here, but I am assuming that given the way you talk and rattle on and on about how great the suburbs are, you go to some suburban church that is self-serving and is too busy building monuments to itself (see Prestonwood, the Heights, and so on and so forth) to actually do any good for the community or the world (whether it is outreach, missions, or whatever). If that is true, way to spend your money (or as you put it, $). I bid you good day.

[bloodandpopcorn]

wow horsey! You seem about as cynical about the 'wonders' of modern american christianity as I am! Want to start a meetup group? hahahahaha.

KellyUSA,
this is probably entirely unappropriate, but if I may make a bit of a moral suggestion for my own sake, please consider giving some money directly to homeless shelters, etc., in addition to your church. Even if it uses most of hte money to "help" others, church help centers tend to be more about making other people believe like the church does than acutally giving them the attention, care, and other absolute necesseties... which are given as well, usually, don't get me wrong... but please at least consider giving some money direct to Austin Street Shelter, etc... they will use it with no strings attached, and need the money more than any faith-based-organization does....

if that prior thing is inappropriate, please let me know, and i'll edit it out...

[Kelley USA]

I am actually a proud member of Fellowship Church in Grapevine... The Church does great work- they have a shoe drive every winter for kids in Eastern Europe and they currently opened a satellite church in Brazil in a small town that previously had no church!!! The church does 2 mission trips a year and they have numerous outreach programs. But thanks for asking!!! Good day to you as well- it certainly made my day go by quicker!!

Hey bloodandpopcorn... I am actually a big fan of Austin Street Shelter!!! They are doing great things with the backing of Tom Hicks and Ross Perot Jr...

If you would like to be a financial supporter of the Austin Street Centre, please mail your contribution to:

Austin Street Centre
P.O. Box 710729
Dallas, TX 75371-0729

Make Checks Payable to: AUSTIN STREET CENTRE

[mikedsjr]

Originally posted by bloodandpopcorn
First of, mikedsjr, that last post made me very happy!

in response to your question in the second to last post, I would say it makes your parent's bad. ;-). While there is a bit of a humorous tone in my mind for that statement, to an extent, I do feel it is also slightly serious. It doesn't make them evil, certainly, but it does make them not-good, not a help, and I define things that aren't good, bad. So, if that makes any sense at all, you may get my point... and if not I'm sorry for any headaches I may cause.

I remember my parents told me that they didn't want me shipped off to some school that wasn't near home. Whether they were right or wrong in all of their decision, i don't really know. It certainly was at a time in history where racism was high.

All i know is that i wouldn't trade that move for the world. Because i have alot of lifelong friends that i probably would have never had before. All of those lifelong friends went to the same church. We grew from being kindegardeners to College together. Those bonds i have with the are so strong nothing in this world could break them.

Now, did it help Dallas for people like my parents to move? No, but obviously Dallas never recovered. And really its not much different today. But instead of being called white-flight its called wealth flight.

Unfortunately poor people can't make many of the same decisions rich people can. They can't leave neighborhoods in Dallas that should be completely closed down and bulldozed down because of criminal activities.

[gc]

hey Kelly USA, you never responded to my previous post. Am I thinking of the right person?

[bloodandpopcorn]

Hey Kelly, you may know, what is up with this change to Austin Street Centre? I've heard rumors that it will turn Austin Street Centre into another disguised Christian recruitment center, rumors which I pray (sorry, bad joke) are not true...

and mikedsjr, I would venture to say that the country has never recovered from white flight... not just Dallas.

[mikedsjr]

Originally posted by bloodandpopcorn
Even if it uses most of hte money to "help" others, church help centers tend to be more about making other people believe like the church does than acutally giving them the attention, care, and other absolute necesseties... which are given as well, usually, don't get me wrong... but please at least consider giving some money direct to Austin Street Shelter, etc... they will use it with no strings attached, and need the money more than any faith-based-organization does....


While i have no problem with the conclusion that the main purpose Church's do for others is to try to reach more people for Christ, I do regretfully agree that many churches do not understand the cost of doing mission work correctly. While all mission work is to reach the lost, whether locally or globally(our church uses the term Glocal), this should not be done without first and foremost meeting the needs of the people through caring. Truly caring for them.

I think most people don't have problem giving to many organizations. The problem is that every organization wants money and help. Many people just don't have a whole lot to go around for 20 different organizations, much less 5.

Honestly I would rather give more to my church than to a organization that helps people. But that is only because of the understanding i have of my church. I know most churches may not be like mine. But helping people bleeds in our church. There is more money that comes in our church for mission work than there is that comes through for overhead and supplies and church needs.

Some people don't go to church. Some people do. Some people donate. Some people dont. Everyone is a different person. Some bad people. Some good people. And to everyone a different opinion on what is good and bad.

[Kelley USA]

Hey GC-

I'm just having some fun!! Like some- I don't think the suburbs are the devil and I was simply trying to help out FriscoRocks... I thought he / she was unfairly treated on this board and I wanted to even things out a bit... I do enjoy the energy of downtown and Uptown and some of the new developments are impressive- but every time I make my way down for a visit I'm reminded why I moved away... I do think it's important for the entire region to have a vibrant downtown- and that's why I have so much interest in it... I'm a development nut really- whether its downtown, Frisco, DeSoto etc... I love to see the entire region do well! At one point I did consider a move back downtown because it was closer to work for my girlfriend- but sense got the best of us and we decided we're much happier where we are...

[bloodandpopcorn]

My personal feelings are that, wihle religion is indeed important to some, those necessities are crucial to all.. and I personally feel that until those needs are filled, there isn't much of a place for religious outreach through those means. Once people have a constant supply of food and have stopped drug abuse and are on their way to a job of some kind and a better life, then they can be pressured to become Christian. I understand the church rather well, I was forced to (in my opinion) waste every wednesday and sunday for 18 years in one because of my parents, so I understand how important evangelism can be for many Christians... I just wish that most of those people could go see the real, concrete, completely-factual-no-questions-about it suffering that is going on... I think we'd see alot less televangelism and a lot more volunteers helping out the underprivillaged.

Just so you know I'm not saying anyone here needs to see that, from the many conversations we've had on here, I don't think we have anyone on here (except maybe a few suburbanites, ;-) , hehe) who aren't very very concerened about the underprivillaged of Dallas. Just finally getting some of my feelings out here for discussion, etc.

Now, I hate to bring this up, because it's been known to annoy me at times on other forums when these kind of statements are constantly made... but maybe it would be best to continue any suburbs vs. city arguments, or homeless or religious arguments, on another thread? I just realized once again that all of this is going on a thread about one city using eminant domain to build a soccer complex... so we all, myself being perhaps the biggest offender, have gone WAY off topic.