On the way to Sherman..

[jammin]

This starts in 60 days, and Victory has just been sitting there?

Link (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/business/stories/072103dnbusliberty.14f38.html)

Collin County to get Liberty development
Hillwood plans to build a mixed-use project in Melissa


07/21/2003

By STEVE BROWN / The Dallas Morning News

The developers that brought Victory to downtown Dallas are going to give Liberty to Collin County.

Investor and developer Hillwood has purchased 500 acres in the northern Collin County town of Melissa to build a residential and commercial development.

The company plans more than 1,300 homes plus 69 acres of commercial space for the Liberty project.

Hillwood Development – one of the largest residential community builders in North Texas – bought the land near State Highway 121 and FM 545 from the Owens family, which founded Owens Country Sausage. The property is east of North Central Expressway, on the east side of Melissa.

To link the new development with Melissa's old business and residential district, Hillwood has set aside 300 lots for a "neo-traditional" neighborhood. Such projects mimic vintage home architecture and neighborhood layouts and have been popular with developers.

Hillwood Development president Fred Balda said it's the first such development his company has done.

"We won't do the whole project neo-traditional, but the heart of it will be, which coincides with their historic district."

The Melissa project breaks new ground for Hillwood, which is one of the top 10 residential land developers in Texas.

"We've done a few projects in McKinney already, but this is the furthest north," Mr. Balda said. "It's in the right growth corridor and makes sense."

Builders Drees Homes, Highland Homes and Standard Pacific Homes have committed to build houses priced between $140,000 and $300,000.

Construction will begin in about 60 days, and the first lots will be ready next summer.

Melissa Mayor David Dorman said the Hillwood project should give impetus to revitalization of the town's historic center.

"We did a lot of work with them, and the result will be beneficial to both the city and the developer," Mr. Dorman said. "Every city is going to grow – it's a question of how you grow and who you partner up with."

Mr. Dorman said about 4,000 new homes are in the pipeline for Melissa, a former farming community just north of McKinney.

By 2010, the town of about 1,500 people is expected to swell to more than 20,000, he said.

The Liberty community will be the third major residential project Hillwood Development has started this year. The others are in Glenn Heights and North Tarrant County. Hillwood is currently building 10 such projects in the Dallas-Fort Worth area.

The company, which is owned by Dallas businessman Ross Perot Jr., also has the 15,000-acre Alliance project in North Tarrant County and the Victory mixed-use project near downtown Dallas.

E-mail stevebrown@dallasnews.com

[gc]

Yeah, I saw that this morning too. It is a little frustating, but it does not really surprise me.

[aceplace]

Well, in all fairness, it sounds like the 300 lots will also be single-family houses on lots. It's just that they will be close to the local shops, the houses will have porches, be close together on the side, small front yards and wide sidewalks, so people can sit outside and watch pedestrians on the street.

This is the classic neo-traditional, small southern town from the 1920s type of environment that many people like.

[CTroyMathis]

I'm reserving my out for a 214 area code overlay - when I live off of Lake Texoma someday! ;)

[freewaytincan]

Originally posted by aceplace
Well, in all fairness, it sounds like the 300 lots will also be single-family houses on lots. It's just that they will be close to the local shops, the houses will have porches, be close together on the side, small front yards and wide sidewalks, so people can sit outside and watch pedestrians on the street.

This is the classic neo-traditional, small southern town from the 1920s type of environment that many people like.

Eh, I doubt it. After all, who in their right mind would sit on the stoop in this state in the summer?! And let's be realistic...the average suburbanite won't do any of that.

Typical developers. This is not surprising at all.

[aceplace]

When I was a boy, I lived for a while in an older part of Corsicana near the downtown, in a big old house with porches. Those porches used to be screened so people could sleep outdoors.

The dramatic thing to do was to go sit in the porch during a summer thunderstorm, the more violent the better. The cool winds, the drama of the event, that was great.

There was some activity on the sidewalk as people walked around after the sun went low on the horizon. It wasn't the heat, or the humidity... it was the sun coming down on you that made people uncomfortable.

And the porch was a good place to sit, because it was undeniably PRIVATE space, part of your house... but you could still see everything going on.

Urban, you may be right. The "average", i.e typical, suburbanite may not do that. The houses will be lived in by the atypical suburban dweller.

I highlight the word because you cannot "average" 100 different people, only 100 different numbers.

What we don't know at this point is the number of atypical customers who want to buy and live in those houses.

Note:

I do wonder why some use the term "Average" to describe people. If you wanted to average 25 numbers, say, the daily sales of 25 convenience stores, you add the 25 numbers together and divide by the number of stores.

What if you wanted to "average" 25 people? You add the number of people together and get 25. Then you divide 25 by the NUMBER of people and get 1. So, by definition, EVERYBODY is average. Each person is just 1 individual, and the average is one. So each one is average.

Those with split personalities might perhaps break the theory...

[CTroyMathis]

Liberty: Master planned development is set to transform Melissa
Emily Clark
http://dallas.bizjournals.com/dallas/stories/2004/03/01/focus14.html

"I've been a land broker for 30 years, and I've never seen such a deal where everybody fell into line and ended up happy." That's how Greg Gibb, president of Gibb Investments, describes the Liberty residential development now under construction in Melissa.


The culmination of 17 hard months of negotiations and a few snags along the way, Liberty -- a masterplanned development of Hillwood Residential -- is set to transform Melissa, a town of 2,800 in the path of the Allen/McKinney/Frisco growth juggernaut. In the next seven years, Melissa's population will increase by a factor of 10, to 30,000.

"It's not easy to find the right tracts of land," says Gibb. "I look at 40 or 50 tracts before I find one that works. Then you pray the seller will sell and the city will zone."

Gibb found what he thought was an ideal tract -- 500 acres of well-kept farmland with miles of footage along the bustling State Highway 121 corridor. Then the project hit its first wall: the owner of Owens Ranch, Jerry Owens, was not interested in selling.

What changed his mind, according to Gibb, was the reputation that Hillwood Residential brought to the project, a reputation that convinced Melissa Mayor David Dorman the project would enhance the city's tax base.

"Hillwood is the kind of company that won't just build and walk away," Dorman says. "They have a vision and really care about their legacy. They want to leave something to be proud of."

According to Hillwood Residential President Fred Balda, Liberty will offer 1,300 homes in the $140,000-$300,000 range, nearly 70 acres of retail and commercial space fronting 121, a series of parks and an amenities center that will include several pools, a cabana, a sport court and walking trails, all within walking distance of the residences. In addition, Hillwood has set aside land for an elementary school.

What sold Dorman on the Liberty development, however, is its architectural tie to the older part of Melissa. Hillwood will build a swath of neo-traditional houses to connect the old town with the new development. According to Balda, these residences will have a "pedestrian-friendly, front porch historical look" that will blend into Melissa and still allow Hillwood to keep its master plan intact.

When negotiations began, Hillwood realized the property lacked water, sewer and zoning. But Balda praises the seller for giving Hillwood the time necessary to identify and solve these issues, which led to the second major holdup for the project.

"What made this interesting was figuring out what to do about water and sewer," Balda says. "We had to go through the legal system to get finalized and approved. There were times when it looked like it wasn't going to move forward."

Balda credits Melissa and its mayor for creating a climate of cooperation.

"The seller, the city, the school district, the attorneys, the developer--it took teamwork and diligence to create something special," he said.

The Liberty residential community -- representing $5 million in land costs and more than $25 million for development -- broke ground in November and is now in the utility stage. The first 400 lots are scheduled for completion this summer.

"It's the best tract of land I've ever put together," says Gregg Gibb. "This was one where I walked away with a big grin on my face."

[rantanamo]

question to any prospective future resident to Melissa, Anna or wherever up there:

Why do you trust that this school district will be acceptable to the needs of your child? I ask this based on other DISD discussion in addition to the fact that many small, rural school districts underperform by the numbers.

[drumguy8800]

AUGHHHHHH!! Stop sprawling! Just because there's a giant tract of land for sale doesn't mean we need to plop down some massive project. We have got to start focusing on the inner city.. I know that there's another thread on some kind of 'development code..' i completely agree with this unbelievably practical development code... Do you understand how far Melissa is from Dallas? I realize that a lot of little cities want to attract development.. but a major development like this really does not belong in... a suburb of a suburb of a suburb. Downtown Dallas' occupancy rate is already low enough without new businesses dragging their operations farther and farther out. Once downtown Dallas is busting at the seams, we can go ahead and build this development. We all know how explosive the population growth is in Collin County.. and how relatively low it is in Dallas County. Can you imagine how amazing Dallas would look right now if all that development had focused in on denser development within Dallas County? And how better DISD would be with all the added tax dollars screaming into the system? And how much more mass transit would already be in place because of the quickened population growth.. it would be so cool... there's the saying "you have to build out before you can build up..' so.. how far do we have to build out? :mad:

[dallastophoenix]

who knows... look at LA.

[tamtagon]

Suburban sprawl is one of the primary ingredients sustaining the rapid and consistent population growth in the Metroplex. The population count of D-FW CMSA has increased by about one third every census since the 1970 census. The "suburb of a suburb of a suburb" effect has provided inexpensive residential property and is vital should we expect the population growth continue. One of the most attractive aspect families consider before transplanting to DFW is the cost of living; purchasing a home in DFW is an extremely good value for the money.

Dallas' satellite cities have an impressive collection of "prizes" to mark their successful developments. It is unproductive and myoptic to blame suburban success for 20+ years of stagnant CBD performance. Affordable personal transportation exponentially aided American suburban development, "The American Dream". This trend is not likely to go away. A new trend is a return to the city. All over the place, once dull downtown areas are perking up and becoming centers of activity, again. More than anything, (most)downtowns owe renewed activity to the coming of age of second/third generation suburban children. Becoming tired of suburban life, millions of young adults and millions more middle aged adults have completed the family rearing years, and want something to do. As the history of a city goes, Dallas (but not yet Fort Worth) may have reached a lifestyle fulcrum. There are enough bored empty nesters and new adults from suburban population growth of the 80s to sustain "urban living" in Dallas. Within another generation, the development of urban settings will be less affected by the ebb and flow of citizens to the family oriented suburbs. Every five years, the glow of urban living in Dallas will change, and developments like the West Village will realize a more wide ranging demographic profile of its core customers. As counter-intuitive as it may seem, DFW suburban communities supports and maintanes the adolescent urban communities of central Dallas. It's just the painful early years we're coming out of.

I hate sounding like a cliche, but Dallas is on the verge greatness, perhaps even world class. DART trains are slowly putting downtown into focus; the Arts District is pulling itself together; obsolete office space is being converted into residential space. Tangible evidence of urban city life is all over this forum. In the quest for city living opportunities to be regarded in the same category as Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, and (maybe) Manhattan, the future of Dallas is pretty secure. The current layout of neighborhoods and entertainment districts surrounding the CBD is the ringer. Individually, areas like Deep Ellum, Oaklawn, Uptown, Lower Greenville offer extremely cohesive destinations. Clustered into small geographic areas, similar venues congregate and form very directive neighborhoods. As the population density of central Dallas increases, personality tensions will be greatly diminsihed by the predefined character of each part of town.

[I45Tex]

dallastophx:

Hey, by my count, dallas is already neck-and-neck with lost angeles in terms of 300+-footers... in terms of up rather than out, I'd say that's plenty cause for cheer. When you take that civic precociousness into account, it shouldn't be too surprising that we don't see so much highrise construction demand in Dallas - it's got so many relative to its size already!On the continent, I'm only aware of New York [~550], Chicago[250 plus current construction], Houston[~105 and growing], San Francisco[90 before long], Mexico City[almost 80], and Toronto[nearing 70 like Dallas and L.A.] having this kind of concentration. I know that that height cutoff ignores the issue of densification really - because what the fabric of Dallas needs is midrise mixed-use infill - but hey, crap like Camden Farmer's Market is too misguided a price to pay for just having more warm bodies in the county limits. That stuff has to stop or else we'll be making two steps back for every one forward.

As for patently unsustainable examples like Melissa, I have to ask whether the market attracted to that lifestyle would be particularly interested in meaningfully contributing to high-density living inside loop 12 anyway: these sprawling subdivisions aren't inexpensive properties; their prospective residents have a wide range of options to start with. It remains to be seen whether TODs will shift the popular paradigm much in North Texas. In Houston, at least, I've happily been watching a very recent trend begin where broad midrise residential rental buildings are starting to fill in at several points around the city where multiple freeways are accessible. This, too, is TOD in the realistic sense of the word, and it could happen in Dallas. More financially active people in the county would be good for the schools, as has been said, because I hear my relatives complain about the taxes so far; and yet the other thing I hear them complain about is the traffic, and that doesn't look to be getting any way but worse.
Until DART fosters TOD in a big and vibrant way, isn't it maybe better that the three- and four-car households keep choosing to stay out in Frisco, or at least Plano, rather than trying to shoehorn onto the gridlocked streets in the city? I certainly don't blame them. We are, after all, the ones who bitch about all the parking lots because there should be urban fabric there; but businesses in Dallas that lack parking lots won't viably prosper until that development form has achieved critical mass to become the status quo (half the trouble with retail, I've read, is in getting the customer through the door. so I'd conjecture that enclosed malls work so well, in part, in that they can open up the entire front of the store, whereas in Dallas the necessity to walk whatever distance to a store rather than pull up to the door in a car is a potentially crippling competitive disadvantage…) which won't happen until density of residents is much higher, which won't happen without them bringing all their cars along since DART simply isn't going to become movement option #1... see what I mean?

[drumguy8800]

Maybe by the time I'm old and dying, DART will be option #1. Ah, who knows. Is TOD that development concept thing..? And what does it stand for? (I'm stupid. :confused: ) As I was writing my post up there, I was thinking to myself how horrendous the gridlock is already.. and how horrible it would be if so many people lived really close to the center.. but then I tried to reassure myself that if there were that many people living in such a close-knit urban "uber"-landscape.. that mass transit would be the transport of choice for Dallasites. Maybe someday this will happen. And what's wrong with Camden's Farmers Market? I drove by it yesterday and thought that it looked pretty cool.. is it not 'mid-rise' enough? Just kinda like plopping down an apartment complex in an area where there should be 30+ story buildings? I know one development that I HATE is this huge swath of red apartment buildings.. Very out of place.. I think they're southeast of downtown. Not really sure. Anyway.. they don't belong near downtown. In fact, they don't belong anywhere. Who wants to live in a blood-red apartment building..? not me.......

[jsoto3]

TOD = Transit Oriented Development
http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm45.htm
http://www.transitorienteddevelopment.org/pages/1/index.htm

Camden's Farmers Market is the 'huge swath of red (suburban style) apartment buildings' southeast of downtown. The density is fine (see image below). My beef with it is that it is gated and rather un-pedestrian friendly. I understand security is an issue in this part of downtown, but security is better obtained by numerous front doors on the street, which puts people (residents) on the sidewalks.

[drumguy8800]

UGH! it is the ones I hate. they need to be imploded.. the least they could've done is made them look like rowhouses and made varying heights.. varying colors.. etc. *gag*..

[rantanamo]

I lived there for a spell. Was a nice place to live. Very suburban, but just compacted into the shape of city blocks. I always wondered why it wasn't built more urban. The biggest crime issues were usually inside the gates. A woman was raped in one of the garages, as well as in a couple of the apartments. There was also a problem with people posing as workers and robbing some apts. Crazy, but much less than has happened in other places I've lived. The funny thing is, the loft building and those great looking townhomes across the street both have doors at the streets. I also think Camden would have been wise to give this project some retail with all of the residents. I hope they do add some to the next phase. I just wonder if there might be some restriction due to the proximity to the Farmers Market. I'll stop now before I start ranting about how the Farmers Market area should/could be great with a configuration change to more of a street market.

[Lakewooder]

The bad thing about the Camden area is that it was once second only to the West End in vintage loft buildings. Nearly all of them were torn down less than 20 years ago. I don't know if it was in anticipation of getting the Rangers there or what... I think the ballpark would have performed much better at that location (oh well).

As for Sherman and other points north: My family has had a cabin at Texoma since 1961 (we stopped for gas in Plano, and there wasn't much there HA). Those folks up there are licking their chops at the prospect of Dallas sprawl. They're doing everything possible to attract it. There's a bit of tear-down activity going on at the lake, as smaller cabins are mowed down to create grand getaways. Also, more people are living there full time.

In my dealings with the Grayson County government, I've found that everyone knows they are corrupt, and it's just accepted. There's no way to stop the eagerly anticipated sprawl and the revenue that will end up lining the pockets of the local pols.

[sterling]

I think the problem is developers (Camden)trying to convince people that urban living and suburban living are the same thing. I think they mislead people by promising an amalgam based on what's easiest for them to build. I still think "something" is better than "nothing", but wonder if people move there and then think "Gee, why was I duped into this?". Anybody out there actually live in the area?