Panel rejects Wal-Mart plan

[GarrettCarey]

I know the situation is more complex than tax dollars........ BUTt to me.......the rejected Wal-Mart plan equals area economic development and job creation and sales tax dollars.....whcih equals good for Dallas.

It is interesting that a city that needs tax dollars so desperately is rejecting a plan that could help them achieve their goal.

Any other thoughts?

[MustangMonkey]

I was thinking the same thing, do they want these tax dollars going to nearby Irving. Remember, though, that this is not the city council vote (that will be later) but the Dallas plan vote. But the DMN article; Panel rejects Wal-Mart plan (http://www.dallasnews.com/localnews/city/dallas/stories/060702dnmetwalmart.512c4.html) brings up the issues of potentially icreasing crime ect... I know the area, but I need to do a drive by of the site before comming to a conclussion. In general I don't think having a WalMart in Dallas city limits is anything to be proud of, but the idea of a new type of urban WalMart sparked my interest; however what I read from the article leeds me to belive that it is not much diffeent than what we have all seen at other WMs.


DMN article:
Panel rejects Wal-Mart plan
Supercenter on Mockingbird called an 'oversized gorilla'

06/07/2002

By COLLEEN McCAIN NELSON / The Dallas Morning News

The Dallas Plan Commission unanimously rejected plans for a Wal-Mart Supercenter on Thursday, calling the store an "oversized gorilla."

Wal-Mart officials have hoped to build a 220,000-square-foot store on Mockingbird Lane between Inwood Road and Lemmon Avenue.

The combination discount center and grocery store, which would feature parking below an elevated retail area, would be a departure from Wal-Mart's typical suburban stores. The retailing giant touted the store as a unique urban concept.

Map (http://www.dallasnews.com/popups/0602/07060702_walmart.html',%20450,%20500)

Wal-Mart officials could appeal the commission's decision to the City Council, but three-fourths of council members must approve the zoning change to overturn Thursday's decision. Daphne Davis Moore, Wal-Mart's community affairs manager, said Wal-Mart first needs to regroup and weigh its options.

"We really want to be part of Dallas," she said. "But after today, we don't know if that's possible."

Many residents argued that the heart of Dallas is not an appropriate location for what they called a suburban discount center on stilts. Some told the Plan Commission that a store the size of 4 ½ football fields would bring noise, crime and traffic to the congested area between Love Field and the Park Cities.

"We're not anti-Wal-Mart. We're not anti-business," said Ronald Holman, a resident of the nearby Greenway Parks neighborhood. Residents simply are opposed to "unreasonable and inappropriate land use" in their neighborhood, he said.

A Syms outlet store now sits on part of the site, but Wal-Mart officials wanted to combine the Syms land with an adjacent vacant lot to assemble an 11-acre site for their store.

Other residents supported the concept, saying that convenient shopping would be a boon.

"We have many seniors in our neighborhood ... who are not able to shop at other stores," resident Tommy McGee said. "We came to the conclusion that the assets outweigh the liabilities."

Mr. McGee was in the minority, though. Opponents of the proposal donned neon "No" stickers and jammed the City Council chambers. About two dozen supporters wore yellow smiley-face buttons.

Plan commissioners said they agreed with opponents, who cited concerns about gridlock that the store could bring to the area. The store would be too large and the retail use too intense for a site so close to homes, the commissioners said.

"As I see it, this case boils down to traffic and crime," said Commissioner Neil Emmons, whose district includes the site.

Other commissioners said Wal-Mart had done little to modify its suburban prototype for an urban location.

"This case is proof how hard it is to take a suburban model and drop it down into the city," Commissioner David Spence said.

One by one, the commissioners detailed reasons for their opposition, criticizing everything from the plan itself to the company's attempts to win commissioners' support. Wal-Mart had sent surveys to residents who live within a three-mile radius of the site, asking them how often they would shop at the store.

Wal-Mart provided each commissioner with reams of the surveys, as well as other supporting materials. Commissioner Lawrence Wheat called the foot-high stack of papers "crap" and dumped his on the floor.

"I want to ask Wal-Mart to write a check to the reforestation fund for all the paper they wasted," he said.

Ms. Moore of Wal-Mart said she was taken aback – by the unanimous vote and the harsh criticism.

"It was disappointing," she said. "We're pretty discouraged."

E-mail cmccain@dallasnews.com

[rantanamo]

OK, after finding and reading this article, I am absolutely stunned at this whole situation. Thanks to my pt job and the exotic locales I have been walking the area bordered by Mockingbird, DNT, NW Highway, and I-35. The way this project was so railed on, I thought this was some great area that a Walmart would have severely cripled or something. This area needed that Walmart. They should be praising Walmart for wanting to develop there. Yes, Greenway Parks, and Highland Park are immediately east of this, but that area really runs down as you travel west on Mockingbird. I'm not saying that to make stereotypes, but from actual interaction with citizens, running from pitbulls that were left unchained, and being threatend by wealthy old women to get out of their neighborhood. I would imagine the neighborhoods to the east were in the strong opposition in this case. I'm still lost though. Rundown, empty lot > Urban Walmart that would have really served the citizens of that community well?

[214]

im glad they rejected it,i think that the wal-mart would have just brought more crime to an area that already has enough crime as it is(they call that area NorthPark,the part where all the blacks & latinos live)

[evdallas]

I am very happy Wal Mart is defeated. I honestly think Wal Mart destroys the smaller stores, which I prefer over going to that place. Let it go to Irving. Wal Mart thinks they can move in anywhere and do whatever they want and I am glad the council has said no, we don't need you.

[rantanamo]

I'm lost though? Walmarts = Crime? I'm not saying they don't, but I don't understand that dynamic. More loitering? Store patrons being robbed outside? Shoplifting?

As far as smaller businesses go, there simply isn't much of anything in that area. There are a few supersmall mom and pops that are super spread out, and that have been absolutely empty the week and half I've been there. There were many to the south along Lemmon and Maple, but those still aren't immediate to this area. Most on Lover's Lane were not even Walmart type of business, while there is one mid sized upscale supermarket on Inwood. From what I understood, Walmart was very willing to work with the citizens of the area, and had a really nice design with minimal setback and parking on top and at the rear. After seeing the need for development and NORMALLY priced retail for things like clothing, supermarket type groceries, and household items, I totally understand why Walmart wanted to develop there. This area needed this business. Badly. The tax revenue was needed badly. The look of the area needed it badly. I can understand if this was Lakewood or north Oak Cliff, but it's not. Also, why was a Target allowed just up Lemmon? yet this wasn't good enough or too disruptive to crime and mom and pops? I'm not buying that at all. We should set aside our hate for big box/suburban type retail and realize what was best for that area, unless we all plan to go in and revitalize it ourselves.

[gc]

Originally posted by rantanamo
We should set aside our hate for big box/suburban type retail and realize what was best for that area, unless we all plan to go in and revitalize it ourselves.

I agree with rantanomo here. That area needed it badly. A walmart might have done the trick to encourage other types of developments too. The old abandon SYMS site probably encourages plenty foul play anyways.

[tamtagon]

For me, the only thing wrong with Wal-mart is that the people at the top make too much money. Like, 4 or 5 of the 10 richest people in America have fortunes thanks to the success of Wal-mart stores. The employees, the hordes of would be self-employeed small shop owners put out of busniess by a more competitive business model should have higher salaries and better inusrance. Wal-mart keeps payroll as low as possible by keeping a large percentage of part-time workers, only the full time workers qualify for benefits. The Walton family should wake up and realize that $3 billion for each family member is enough, let the billions in yearly profits go to the people keeping the stores up and running - OR - lower the prices even more.

That Walmart puts some individuals out of business is not the fault of the chain, it a function of our political system. It sucks for some people, but the demand for lower prices is greater than the demand for a population of independant shop owners. The only aspect of this that I can honestly say is unfortunate is that the profit is not spread out.

It's ignorant to deny a business because the increased activity would call for more police. What's up with that?


"As I see it, this case boils down to traffic and crime," said Commissioner Neil Emmons, whose district includes the site -- does that mean this area should remain exactly as it is with no growth, or better yet, business should move out of the area so traffic and crime would be less of a problem in this district. Is the ideal that there would be no crime and no traffic if the district was comprised solely of residential dwellings?


"We're not anti-Wal-Mart. We're not anti-business," said Ronald Holman, a resident of the nearby Greenway Parks neighborhood. Residents simply are opposed to "unreasonable and inappropriate land use" in their neighborhood, he said. --- Greenway Parks is not the only neighborhood in the area. Maybe having a Walmart near Greenway Park will be very convenient to the service employees cleaning the homes and trimming the lawns in Greenway Park. Maybe we can allow Walmart to build on the 11 acres if they also put an electric fence around the exclusive neighborhoods needing protection from unreasonable and inappropriate retail outlet that is Walmart.

[mikedsjr]

Rantanamo...

Excellent analysis.

[BIMS 01]

tamtagon,

you can't expect walmart to pay more than the going rate for work that takes little to no education. if the emplyees don't like it, they should find another job that pays them what they feel they are worth.

I lived in the apartments at Maple and Mockingbird for two years (they are UT Southwestern student housting). I loved it and hated it at the same time. That location is great because it's convenient to get anywhere in town, but it sucks because it's close to nothing. There isn't a grocery store other than the ones over on Cedar Springs and the one on Mockingbird in HP. It's 30 minutes of car time just to get to the store. There aren't any restaurants open for dinner closer than restaurant row, or Knox.

The Walmart would have been great and it's a shame that it didn't get built.

[pariah]

many cities ask the developers for cash money to get the deal aprroved, they justify it by saying it goes to pay for added infrastructure in the area do to increased traffic and such, i wonder if this is whats holding up the deal possibly.

[tamtagon]

I dont expect Walmart to pay above the market value, of course not, that's part of what led to its success. The company was initially able to compete by having lower labor costs - before the volume discounts really kicked in. But now that it has more than established itself as a financially stable company, I would like to see (although do not expect to see) some changes in corporate policies. In the beginning, the company was very smart to hire so many part time employees, that action helped gain the company stay in business. Extending benefits to part time employees may be the action which keeps Walmart on top - by lowering labor cost due to turn over.

My beef is not with Walmart, it's with a political system which has done too much to serve the needs of corporations.

AND, I think it's just plain silly to deny a zoning change which would give the community a great place to buy things.

[Columbus Civil]

Have y'all seen the type of people that shop at Walmart??

[jsoto3]

I hate Walmart as much as the next guy, but I am with Rantanamo, Tamtagon, and BIMS01 on this one, and always have been. The city missed a good opportunity here. Walmart just might have established a precedent here with a new urban type as other bigbox retailers have done elsewhere.

[mikedsjr]

Yeah, I've seen the type that shop there.

They are called human beings.

Not everyone on this earth is as rich as the people who live in Downtown Dallas or UpTown or Highland Park.

:rolleyes:

[dallastophoenix]

Yes, walmart dose seem to "attract" a certain customer that is, well, usually only seen at a local walmart... but i've been to a few (in nicer neighborhoods: west plano, rockwall, scottsdale, az) that also seem to attract the "normal" individuals of that area... They may drive a mercedes or an escalade, but they're saving money going to walmart...

there's obviously something more involved w/ this than we know about... money could have abeen the issue, but whatever the case - that area could have greatly benefitted from a walmart. whenever a walmart enters an area, other retail ALWAYS follows... and it's not always crime that follows it either... it's up to the mgmt to keep everything clean and safe in the parking lots.

what a successful location that would have been, though - w/ smu nearby, and all of the other underserved residents. and how funny it would have been to see the HP and uptown residents stopping by the store to get their big-box items for their parties...

[gc]

I think that stereotype is all crap. People like to make fun of Targets and Walmarts and the like, but the fact of the matter is most people go to them. The Target over by Cityplace, for example, is always packed with people of various races and all income levels.

[Columbus Civil]

Target:WalMart::Nordstrom:JC Penney

These "human beings" can stay their ass at WalMart. I'm not going anywhere near there.

[BIMS 01]

Columbus I guess you're just better than the other 95% of the U.S. population that would dare step foot in a <gasp> Walmart. It's fine if you don't want to go there, but it certainly doesn't make you any better than people that do shop there, me included.

[Columbus Civil]

Columbus I guess you're just better than the other 95% of the U.S. population that would dare step foot in a Walmart.

The sooner you accept this, the better we'll get along.

[gc]

chill out fellas...
I am fine letting columbus think he is better than us.

[crescentboi]

Ok, I've tried to stay out of this, but this is insane crazy! I have a large number of very wealthy friends and people who live in Uptown and Highland Park and they shop at Neiman's, Stanley Korshak and what not. They also buy groceries at Central Market. But they also go frequently to Target at Cityplace or to Wal-Mart. NO one is too good for any kind of store. All of society does not fit completely into certain pockets and areas. Everyone mixes to a degree. It's attitude like that that makes me cringe when I go to some of the suburbs! Everyone's too good for everyone else! Whatever.

[tamtagon]

Target:WalMart::Nordstrom:JC Penney
Target's not that much better than Walmart.

My guess is that when the city council was considering the zoning change which would allow Walmart to penetrate into a former suburban area (now enclosed by the city), the only residents showing up to voicing an opinion were against the venture:

Opponents of the proposal donned neon "No" stickers and jammed the City Council chambers. About two dozen supporters wore yellow smiley-face buttons.

The two dozen with smiley faces were certain to be Walmart employees.

[Columbus Civil]

Target's not that much better than Walmart.

Yes it is. I would never buy clothes at Walmart.

[bloodandpopcorn]

Well, Columbus, no offense, but that's more a problem with you than with "those" that shop at Walmart. I really hate to be mean... but this is rather laughable... I mean, you are free to shop where you choose obviously, but this mental aversion you have really is rather groundless. I grant you that I probably would not be the first one to drive out to Walmart an hour or two after dark on a tuesday night. But dismissing it outright... unless you've experienced something there that I, and evidently many of us on the board, haven't, there's no reason for that.

Oh, and just for the record, I'm not a fan of building many more Walmarts. It's a bit hypocritical because I shop there alot, but, I do think the typical Walmart poorly uses space and encourages sprawl. I was really interested to see what they did with the 'new urban design'.

[DallasTexan]

Have you seen the "specimens" who shop at the Wal-Marts in Nashville?

Quite scary. I don't think some of them qualify as humans...

[tamtagon]

Do they sell opossum in the deli at the Nashville Walmart?

[mikedsjr]

Degrading human life just because they are not the type of people you want to hang out with doesn't mean they aren't any more valuable to society and to God.

Your should be greatful and giving for your place in society. I've met alot of people who had little who were really nice folks.

Get off the hatred.

[dallastophoenix]

Just one more comment from me on this tired subject, and i'm done...

Columus, you would buy clothes at Target (?) and not Walmart? they seem very similar to me. it's like saying you would never eat pizza hut, but pizza inn is the best.... doesn't make sense - but to each his own...

regardless of the debate of "who" shops at a walmart, it would have been a good thing for that part of Dallas.

[Columbus Civil]

Sounds like you know as much about pizza as you do about clothes.

[dallastophoenix]

apparently working for Ralph Lauren, Express, and Hugo Boss (all corporate design - not retail - jobs) means i don't know much about Target clothing... oh wait, i think you can get 5 shirts for around $12 there... i guess I do know enough about it...

i apologize to everyone else that must see these immaturities b/w us - i just couldn't resist on this one... i'm finished.

[freewaytincan]

Hee hee, and now that we've had...OPERATION ROLLBACK...

[boozo]

Aren't you an Aggie, Columbus Civil?

[mikedsjr]

Looking more at where that Walmart was going that's a shame.

Here is the site on Mapquest (http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?dtype=a&mapdata=Dsd3oJqjKvNJ5QUY6n8aN%2blLfGwfYo9Fq2Eew7d7 4wUN1HtsYcMKsCuAzDCOo%2fPGeLAUmemQ07L8raT9aN%2f5mL rftzo45h48CUsdu%2f6ZcCkIgUDa3cuMcvTgeKnjp6lXwLEvMc 6fRvDHOK6msjXNNnxYTNHkr6TsGATu9i%2btdmCngCnLEtLQlr uQGQ%2b9VS1c563uQ06Cbn6R5OXwy1XfxX%2fcT%2f6i0ohR4B XpxFii49f3xyiwRjO6cC2dNuQRLlft%2bT0gxv%2f1MXnkxZKn fsKFkmbEVG3Oj%2fDZH%2fwAKqTiVhECZxM0EBEy4Pd0c7lPzd dIcgrSheWNL%2brKQ51ArpnuP%2fFIXe2aSX4RLZfalpa1mnc% 3d) and here is the plan that site shown from Dallas Morning News (http://www.dallasnews.com/popups/06-02/07060702_walmart.html).

[DallasTexan]

Originally posted by tamtagon
Do they sell opossum in the deli at the Nashville Walmart?

No. There is no need to.

Just a few years ago, the Tennessee State Government made it legal for citizens to eat road kill, LOL!!! :D

[evdallas]

Target actually uses good designers for alot of their stuff. Walmart has no concept of design. You have to be able to see that, seems really obvious.