Orange Line - DFW Airport Rail Connection

[saxman66]

I'm starting a Rail to DFW thread as someone has requested. I've been studying this topic for a awhile now, since I work at the airport during the summer.

Someone posted a link of the many proposals of rail into DFW. Here it is:
http://www.dfwinfo.com/trans/public_trans/dfwrail/

I'm not sure which idea I like best. There are several possibilities. I don't really like the tunnel under runways though. I think that would cost more than it needs to. The airport is saving the old Airtran ROW for rail possibilies. I would be cool to see tracks running right along International Parkway.

I would like to see a transit center in Grapevine though. Commuter rail could stop at the old G-vine depot where the Tarantula Train now opperates. DART rail could terminate here but then again, it might be easier to build a new station at the north side of the airport. Don't want to ruin DTGVine too much, if it attracts too many cars to park right there either. Just endless possibilites......I don't have time to write about all of them....

Chris

[texman]

Heres all the ways DART is looking at as to LRT access the airport. I posted this on another thread.

After seeing an ariel photo of DFW Airport in one of the other threads, I decided to draw out the best route alignments to DFW DART is looking at.
Starting with their best options:
-South to South (Green route)
-South to North (Blue route)
-Central/North to North (Purple Route)
-Central/South to North (Yellow route)

And in the middle of the airport, black dot represents the "13th station"

After doing this, I really want the South to North route but the South to South doesnt look as bad as I thought it did.
Heres the site: http://www.dart.org/NWPublicMeeting111004.pdf

If they go with the south extension they have the possibilitie to extend it up to Grapvine but I think commuter rail on the Cotten Belt is a much better alt.

[RobertB]

Here's the thread where TexMan originally posted his cool pix: DART N. Irving LRT public meeting (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3013)

The current status of rail to D/FW is... to be determined.

DART has an alignment through Las Colinas that is darn near set in stone, thanks to ROW donations from the University of Dallas and the folks behind the Las Colinas People Mover, the Dallas County Urban Reclamation District (DCURD). The route also has support of the industrial businesses located near the soon-to-be-former home of the Cowboys.

The next leg was originally planned to run north of SH 114 to D/FW. That's the alignment that the plans at dfwinfo.com assumed when they were being drawn up. But by the time those plans were being finalized, DART had received negative feedback about the far-north route, and it's now off the board entirely. From Las Colinas to Belt Line, DART is likely to serve North Lake College via ROW reserved by DCURD for future airport access. DART will look at an alternative that follows 114, but it has ROW problems and will likely be only a token option.

How to get to D/FW is being put off, in no small part because there's no good solution. If we could run tunnels at will, we'd be under Love by now. The north route suffers from constrained ROW that conflicts with airport taxiway expansion. The south route has little existing development. I look for DART to punt the entire issue until after the line is running in Las Colinas and LRT is seen as a natural part of Irving's future development -- as happened in Plano and Garland.

[texman]

Here's the thread where TexMan originally posted his cool pix: DART N. Irving LRT public meeting (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3013)

The current status of rail to D/FW is... to be determined.

DART has an alignment through Las Colinas that is darn near set in stone, thanks to ROW donations from the University of Dallas and the folks behind the Las Colinas People Mover, the Dallas County Urban Reclamation District (DCURD). The route also has support of the industrial businesses located near the soon-to-be-former home of the Cowboys.

The next leg was originally planned to run north of SH 114 to D/FW. That's the alignment that the plans at dfwinfo.com assumed when they were being drawn up. But by the time those plans were being finalized, DART had received negative feedback about the far-north route, and it's now off the board entirely. From Las Colinas to Belt Line, DART is likely to serve North Lake College via ROW reserved by DCURD for future airport access. DART will look at an alternative that follows 114, but it has ROW problems and will likely be only a token option.

How to get to D/FW is being put off, in no small part because there's no good solution. If we could run tunnels at will, we'd be under Love by now. The north route suffers from constrained ROW that conflicts with airport taxiway expansion. The south route has little existing development. I look for DART to punt the entire issue until after the line is running in Las Colinas and LRT is seen as a natural part of Irving's future development -- as happened in Plano and Garland.

Yeah, and further problems are the South line has "uncertain support" while the north route takes to long in DFW to DTD travel times. I agree with DART, they should just put it off, I mean how long until they build this? 5 Years?

[palchik]

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/16036596.htm

[CTroyMathis]

I'm really, really diggin' the details in the *.pdf graphic.

Great news.

http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/9361/dfw13thstationstarteleghy0.gif

[NThomas]

I remember a long time ago that DCTA is suppose to eventually connect to this transit hub w/ a rail route that would follow 121. Does anyone else remember this???

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

I remember a long time ago that DCTA is suppose to eventually connect to this transit hub w/ a rail route that would follow 121. Does anyone else remember this???

I think the plan is to eventually add service from Denton to DFW if demand is there. I imagine it would use the DCTA line to Downtown Carrollton and then use the Cotton Belt tracks to DFW. Is this right?

[incrediculous]

(copied text for when the article goes into archives)

Train station at D/FW Airport is in the works
By GORDON DICKSON and DAVID WETHE
STAR-TELEGRAM STAFF WRITER

The world’s third-busiest airport soon will be bustling with train riders, too.

Dallas/Fort Worth Airport officials say they’ll build a train station between Terminals A and B in five to six years to connect trains from Fort Worth, Dallas and other Metroplex cities.

Now that Grapevine residents have approved a sales tax for rail, the Fort Worth Transportation Authority has the financial partner it needs to build a commuter rail line from southwest Fort Worth to Northeast Tarrant County.

By 2012, the line would reach D/FW’s north end.

Dallas Area Rapid Transit officials say they’ll bring light rail to the north end of the airport by 2013.

“Can you imagine getting on a train at Hulen Mall and getting all the way into D/FW Airport?” said Jeff Fegan, the airport’s chief executive. “It’s probably not a bad deal if you don’t want to fight the traffic on the roadways. I think it will certainly make it a heck of a lot more convenient, and certainly it’s the right thing to do for this region, especially the way highway congestion is.”

A tunnel walkway with moving sidewalks would connect the T and DART systems and also lead to airport escalators and the terminals. The place would likely be decorated in DART’s signature yellow on one side and the T’s red and blue on the other.

A North Central Texas Council of Governments computer model estimates that 2,900 people per day would use the station. Of those, 60 percent would be transferring between the T and DART; the rest would include airport workers and air travelers.

A Plano student might ride trains to Texas Christian University. A south Dallas resident could shop or work at Grapevine Mills. People all over the Metroplex could get to the airport without a car.

“It should be an exciting station, a station with a lot of activity,” said Chad Edwards, a council of governments planner. “Now people are going to have a viable option to a taxi or a rental car to get downtown. With two systems coming together and all the people at the airport, it’s going to be a great option for commuters and visitors to our region, and people who work at the airport.”

The T’s commuter rail line would extend from southwest Fort Worth, through the hospital district, downtown and the Stockyards, then into Northeast Tarrant County. In addition to the D/FW station, there would be two other stops in Grapevine.

DART’s planned orange line to D/FW would extend through Irving’s Las Colinas.

The rail systems aren’t compatible — the T’s trains would be diesel-powered, while DART’s streetcarlike trains are electric — but they would dead-end within easy walking distance of each other.

Riders could use either rail system and connecting buses with a single ticket. Today, a day pass for the T and DART costs $5.

The agencies already co-own the Trinity Railway Express, which counts about 8,000 riders per day, although many riders are counted twice. The TRE runs five miles south of D/FW’s terminals and offers frequent shuttle service from the CentrePort station to the airport, but only a smattering of air travelers use it.

The new station on the north end of D/FW would be more popular for those traveling to the airport because it would be in the heart of the terminal area, planners say.

But local commuters may benefit the most from the easy transfers between the T and DART. Tarrant County residents who want to access the eastern Metroplex’s light-rail system would no longer have to make their way to downtown Dallas. From downtown Fort Worth, they could get to D/FW in about a half-hour.

“Our plan envisions D/FW to be an intermodal hub, not just as a destination but a transfer point, just as happens in downtown Dallas and Fort Worth,” said Michael Morris, transportation director for the council of governments.
Years in the making

Getting the station set up by 2012 shouldn’t be a problem, airport officials say. About $60 million from the Texas Mobility Fund is earmarked to lay tracks to Terminals A and B.

For the T train, a new spur must be built from the Cotton Belt line in Grapevine to D/FW’s Terminal B, about two miles to the south. The tracks would run parallel to the southbound airport service road, and the T’s boarding platform would be built between the service road and the International Parkway main lanes.

DART’s light-rail tracks and overhead electrical lines would run parallel to the northbound service road near Terminal A. DART and D/FW officials are still talking about how to get the tracks across the east airfield and into Irving.

The station will remain separate from Skylink, the airport’s elevated train that serves people who have cleared airport security.

However, to make the rail station easier for airline passengers to use, airport officials may install common-use ticket counters near the train station, where passengers could check bags, go through security and then take Skylink to any terminal. Those plans will be sorted out in the next couple of years.

The station, expected to cost tens of millions of dollars, could be paid for with debt backed by ticket taxes or cash from natural-gas royalties, airport officials say.
Rail bandwagon

Connecting airports to rail lines is a growing national trend, and at least 15 major airports already have direct rail access. Many cities are battling mandates to clean up polluted air and unclog highways, and rail helps relieve the pressure, said Scott Wintner, a spokesman for Airports Council International-North America.

D/FW has about 60 million passengers a year and will continue to grow, said Steve Van Beek, an airport adviser and director of Jacobs Consultancy.

“We may need the transit system,” he said, “just to provide the relief.”
Who will ride the train?

About 2,920 people would pass through the D/FW Airport rail station on a typical day, according to computerized modeling projections.

About 1,360 would come from Tarrant County: 300 airport workers, 870 people transferring to a DART train and 190 people arriving for other reasons, including air travel.

About 1,560 people would arrive daily from Dallas: 240 workers, 890 people transferring to the T and 430 arriving for other reasons, including air travel.

[saxman66]

I've been waiting to hear more on this issue. And it makes me excited! Although I understood the rails would connect between Terminals D and F, along that straighaway of the Skylink for that "13th Station." And yes, there will have to be a way to checkin here and maybe a security checkpoint. Sounds complicated. Now what would be the ultimate would be to check your bags in DTD or FTW and they transfer them for you from there. I know you can do this in London and other European cities.

[CARTMAN]

I just hope The T switches from diesel to electric. That would save taxpayers and commuters millions of dollars in operating costs. Besides they need to set a good example in conservation

[RobertB]

I just hope The T switches from diesel to electric. That would save taxpayers and commuters millions of dollars in operating costs. Besides they need to set a good example in conservation
Unfortunately, it would nearly triple the cost of building the line, from around $300-$400 million to over $1 billion. There's just no way to justify the cost, even if "millions of dollars" are saved per year. I'm not sure about the savings, either -- diesel or electric, someone's paying a bill somewhere.

Besides, who says diesel isn't a conservation option? Willie Nelson (http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/) would beg to differ. (Boy, I wish I still had that biodiesel-powered VW Bug!)

[Spjz]

Question: If I get of an airplane, leave the secured area, pick up my checked luggage, how do I catch the skylink to the Dart station?

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

Question: If I get of an airplane, leave the secured area, pick up my checked luggage, how do I catch the skylink to the Dart station?

You don't. You walk from the terminal via the walkway or take a shuttle bus. Or just don't check your luggage :)

[Spjz]

You don't. You walk from the terminal via the walkway or take a shuttle bus. Or just don't check your luggage :)

That sucks!

[mrowl]

Question: If I get of an airplane, leave the secured area, pick up my checked luggage, how do I catch the skylink to the Dart station?

Baggage Handling – While rail service to airports generally does not attract passengers with a large number of bags, specialized baggage handling features
do seem to help increase ridership. Ideally, baggage check-in and claim facilities would be nearby the rail station boarding / alighting platform(s). Such
facilitieshave not been deployed in the US to date, but various European and Asian airports have some examples. Baggage check-in near rail station platforms have been used in Frankfurt, Munich, Copenhagen, Hong Kong, a nd Tokyo. Claim devices near rail stations have been used in Frankfurt and Hong Kong.

From the DFW rail study final report
http://www.nctcog.org/trans/transit/planning/studies/Finalreportvol2.pdf

[RobertB]

Baggage Handling – While rail service to airports generally does not attract passengers with a large number of bags, specialized baggage handling features
do seem to help increase ridership. Ideally, baggage check-in and claim facilities would be nearby the rail station boarding / alighting platform(s). Such
facilitieshave not been deployed in the US to date, but various European and Asian airports have some examples. Baggage check-in near rail station platforms have been used in Frankfurt, Munich, Copenhagen, Hong Kong, a nd Tokyo. Claim devices near rail stations have been used in Frankfurt and Hong Kong.
Not to mention the fact that you now have to go through the same process to get to the rental car area, which has been centralized south of the airport.

Actually, that's another argument in favor of a southern alignment for the LRT to DFW. The shuttle buses for the rail and the rental car area would be a single route, increasing efficiency and decreasing costs. I think I just figured out what to write on the comment card for the Irving station location public meeting (http://www.dart.org/meetings/publicmeetingsrss.asp?ID=277) on Tuesday (3/20).

Putting the line on the north side may appeal to planners eyeing Grapevine Mills, but it's going to take more than happy thoughts to get that sort of extension. If there's that kind of political will, then it wouldn't be any harder to run the line to the mall via the airport. Running the line along the north side also doesn't do anything for commuters on SH 114, because there's no station planned between Belt Line/161 and DFW.

The only thing "wrong" with the southern alignment is that it looks "too close" to the TRE... to which I say, big deal. It's not like they're competitors. Heck, run the LRT from SH 161 to the Auto Rental area and on down to Centreport. That's compatible with plans to run commuter rail from Centreport through the airport to the Grapeveine-Carrollton line.

Bottom line: If you have to catch a bus from your terminal *anyway*, why go to all the expense of an in-airport terminal? Especially when there's already a traveller-approved alternative.

[BiblicalFive]

Am I right in that NCTCOG is the body that is running the study on how to route the DART orange line from the belt line station into the airport? Does anyone know if they have disseminated more recent information than the 2002 report on their website?

The latest DART report shows a northern alignment with an additional station possibly around Esters... are they drawing it this way because this is the way they are leaning?

If they decide to go with a southern alignment, will folks in Grapevine be able to drive to the station inside the airport and use it as a park and ride to hop on the orange line (without having to use the cotton belt)?

Sorry to ask so many questions... I figured you guys would be more in the know than what I'm finding on any agency websites. :thumbsup:

[RobertB]

Am I right in that NCTCOG is the body that is running the study on how to route the DART orange line from the belt line station into the airport? Does anyone know if they have disseminated more recent information than the 2002 report on their website?

The latest DART report shows a northern alignment with an additional station possibly around Esters... are they drawing it this way because this is the way they are leaning?

If they decide to go with a southern alignment, will folks in Grapevine be able to drive to the station inside the airport and use it as a park and ride to hop on the orange line (without having to use the cotton belt)?

Sorry to ask so many questions... I figured you guys would be more in the know than what I'm finding on any agency websites. :thumbsup:
NCTCOG has made a lot of studies, but DART is the ones paying for on-the-ground engineering studies to determine where to route the line.

Unfortunately, they've hit a major roadblock, as noted in the N. Irving LRT (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=3013) thread -- the FAA is throwing hurdles in DART's way. And not even over the tight clearances on the north side of the airport, where issues were expected. The FAA is dragging its feet over Belt Line Station (on Valley View between BL and the PGBT), and it's causing the entire project -- all the way to Bachman Station -- to be stuck at "30% engineering".

I've summarized the latest DART presentations in that thread also, and noted the station labelled "Esters?" (with a question mark). It's the first I've seen of it, though I think it would be a great idea. The problem is that the available land in the area is largely occupied... by paid park-and-ride lots. Maybe DART will partner with one or more of the lot operators, who would no longer have to maintain a fleet of vans to shuttle passengers to the airport? Grapevine folks can't complain about the lack of free DART parking, since they're not paying for DART's system (though they're contributing to the new commuter rail from FW).

As for Grapevine folks going into the airport to ride the DART line, there isn't going to be a new parking lot built for the airport station. It's going to be designed to get passengers to and from the airport, not as a commuter station. On the other hand, if someone wants to pay $15 a day to use airport parking as a park-and-ride lot, I'm sure the DFW Airport folks will be happy to oblige them!

[BiblicalFive]

Thanks RobertB for the info

Grapevine folks can't complain about the lack of free DART parking, since they're not paying for DART's system (though they're contributing to the new commuter rail from FW).


True... I recognize that anything that DART does near Grapevine would be considered gravy... and overall Grapevine got a very sweet deal with the T line at 3/8 cent... I'm just getting excited and can't wait for more solid news about the orange line... what a position we would be in in Grapevine to be able to hop a train direct to Hulen or Dallas or ultimately Plano on the cotton belt...

Is there a source for more information straight from the FAA on the details of what they don't like about the plan and which way they are leaning? (I will catch myself up on the N. Irving LRT thread as well)

[BiblicalFive]

Taxing/funding issues aside, what would the chances of Grapevine being members of both the T and DART in the coming years?

[RobertB]

Taxing/funding issues aside, what would the chances of Grapevine being members of both the T and DART in the coming years?
Being a member of both would imply being taxed by both, and that's not very attractive even to a transit fan like me.

In fact, the 3/8 cent only gets Grapevine their rail service -- The T won't be providing bus service unless Grapevine were to get on board for the full fare (1/2 cent for The T). That might happen after rail proves successful, but Grapevine would be part of The T's sevice area -- not DART's.

I would expect any links between Grapevine and the DART service area to be covered by individually negotiated interlocal agreements between the city and DART. But what shape those would take will depend on how well the currently-planned routes work out, and on what changes are made to provide Superbowl rail service (if that materializes).

[staplesla]

Rail connection plans for D/FW re-evaluated:

Transportation officials studying how best to connect North Texas rail lines to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport could come up with a last-minute alternative to DART's Orange Line.

For years, Irving leaders have been planning for the Orange Line to directly connect $4 billion worth of development projects to the airport by 2013. They aren't happy with the possible changes.

But the Regional Transportation Council's studies could have implications for more than just Irving. They probably will shape the future for connecting several North Texas rail projects in an area that is notorious for daily highway logjams.

"Just look at all the people on the [State Highway] 114 corridor today," said Michael Morris, transportation director of the North Central Texas Council of Governments. "That's the market for these rail lines."

Current plans call for the Orange Line in Irving and the Cotton Belt line just north of the airport to connect near terminals A and B. Some regional and airport officials now wonder whether the rail lines and the airport's SkyLink people mover should tie in together at a hub farther north.

The transportation council sets transportation policy for the council of governments. Its findings will be considered by the Dallas Area Rapid Transit board, which has the final say on the Orange Line's route.

"In a couple of weeks, we'll have a detailed forecast," Morris said.

Irving officials have used the promise of a direct airport connection with the Orange Line to lure relocating businesses, dazzle mixed-use developers and commit to a $200 million convention center and entertainment complex.

Officials there said they don't want to pit themselves against other cities or regional authorities. But, they said, they have supported the light-rail idea for decades. They've spent millions of dollars getting things in place for the Orange Line. Plus, they point out, financing for their line is secured, while the financial backing to get passenger trains on the Cotton Belt is not a sure thing.

Changes on the Orange Line's final segment could increase the price by as much as $150 million, DART officials estimate.

"All we want is what we were promised," Irving council member Rick Stopfer said.

DART owns a 52-mile stretch of the Cotton Belt rail line from downtown Fort Worth to Wylie that runs through suburbs including Grapevine, Coppell, Carrollton and Addison. The T, Tarrant County's transportation agency, wants to operate passenger rail service from southeast Fort Worth to the airport by 2013 that would use part of the Cotton Belt line. So far, The T has secured about half of the estimated $471 million it will need for the entire line.

DART initially planned to be operating passenger rail along the portion of the Cotton Belt that runs from the airport to an east Plano light-rail station by about 2027. But DART and cities along that route are trying to find funding to push the deadline up to 2013 or 2014.

Morris said the transportation council wanted a fresh look at how all these lines connect to the airport because of the changing timetables that could result in several new lines suddenly operating in the same place at the same time.

One idea is to create a hub on the northern edge of the airport in Grapevine. A SkyLink line could bring people from that station south to the airport. Cotton Belt trains for The T and DART would also tie in, as would DART's Orange Line.

This would force people trying to get from Irving to the airport to make an extra transfer. But it would provide a more direct route for others, like those traveling from northeast Tarrant County on to cities such as Carrollton or Plano, and for those going from Irving's Las Colinas to cities like Grapevine or Fort Worth.

The transportation council, DART, the airport and The T are looking at several issues including determining where rail passengers wanting to get to the airport would check bags. They are also looking at who is likely to ride and where they would be heading. Many details have yet to be worked out, they say.

"All the parties want to make this as effective and efficient as possible to the riders and also to the airport," said Joan Hunter, a spokeswoman for The T.

Officials have cited another advantage to putting a multiline hub in Grapevine: the possibility for a major mixed-use development around the lines. Connecting everything within the confines of airport terminals would make such a development nearly impossible.

DART president Gary Thomas told Irving City Council members last week that the important thing is to make decisions by June so his agency can finish the last leg of the Orange Line on time. Thomas said in an interview that he would take direction from the transportation council on what to recommend to the DART board, which will make the final call on where the Orange Line ends.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/030809dnmetirvrail.316426f.html

[electricron]

First comment, it's not an extra transfer. Dart always considered having a transfer to DFW's people mover. This new plan is only changing the location of where it occurs.

But I wonder if maybe they don't wish to transfer to the new people mover guideway, but to the old people mover guideway. I think most passengers would choose to get to DFW on the land side, not the air side of DFW operations, so they can drop off and pick up their bags without having to go through airport security again. The new guideway connects to the air side, the old guidway to the land side. Is it possible to run new people mover vehicles on the old guideway?

Then there's the problem that the old guideway doesn't go to the new International terminal.....
What do they do for it?

[CTroyMathis]

I'm curious to learn just how far north is under consideration here (or, more simply, exactly where). . .

The "13th Station" transfer idea (SkyLink, future DART LRT, future CRT lines) isn't exactly new, although I remember a few years ago seeing the images of a rather interesting looking multi-level station located somewhere in-between the A & B Terminals right around where there is a branch guideway that heads north in-between the Parkway(s) to the SkyLink maintenance(?) facility. The station was sandwiched in there fairly tightly, w/the SkyLink being the only part elevated east-west while the steel-wheels were north-south. I also remember even further back, some sort of consideration for this station even being south of Terminal D. . .

[CTroyMathis]

After reviewing Google Maps to refresh my fading memory of the area in question, I can see what location (roughly) is likely being considered now.

Oh, also, here's an image from quite some time ago of the other location between Terminals A & B:

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=32.906997,-97.04016&spn=0.002225,0.004828&t=h&z=18
http://img380.imageshack.us/img380/9361/dfw13thstationstarteleghy0.gif

[slfunk]

My opinion is keep the Orange line and DFW connection the way it is. If they want to make changes to the Cotton Belt line then do so, but keep the promised alignment to Irving (they have been waiting a long time for rail). I understand connecting the nothern burbs (Cotton Belt line) to DFW is important, but alter the Cotton Belt line and figure out how much that will cost. The financing for the Cotton Belt is not secured, where as the Orange line is. One big question I have is where will the extra 150 million dollars come from to make the change to the Orange alignment. Maybe DART already has the money, but if not would they have to go back the Fed for money, raise fares, cut services elsewhere, or would this put the Love Field connection out of reach (I can't remember how that one is going to be financed)?

[Double Wide]

good find CTroy.

[NTexUnited]

First comment, it's not an extra transfer. Dart always considered having a transfer to DFW's people mover. This new plan is only changing the location of where it occurs.

They my have a transfer to the people mover in advance, but with the connection outside the airport, you wouldn't be able to check bags when you get off the orange. With a station in the airport, there's a possibility that DFW could put a bag check right next to the platform. You could ride DART to DFW, hop off, check your bags right next to the platform, then go thru security and get on the people mover. Or, you could check your bags at the platform, then take a moving sidewalk to Term. A/B security.

[mjblazin]

Why make this so complicated? Do it like Boston does: Get off the train and get on a bus that takes you to the terminal front door. It's the unique train to bus to bus combo and nothing on Sunday that needs repair at DFW. Let's not design opportunities to fail and add costs. It doesn't make much difference if you step on the bus within or outside the airport.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

Can't the future Cotton Belt trains share the T station platforms? Between Terminal A/B the commuter rail track can terminate into 2 platforms: one to Plano and one to Fort Worth. The Orange Line terminates beside this in 2 platforms of its own. This provides easy transfers between lines and the convenience of easy airport access directly to the terminals via Skylink or connecting walkways.

Northwest of 121/114 on the land planned for mixed-use development (notice how DFW is pushing development on all its land to bring in more revenue) there is a shared commuter rail platform for passengers transfering between Fort Worth and Plano. This keeps the commuting traffic out of the airport but provides direct service to the terminals from both lines. It also makes DFW the main terminus station instead of an empty field which may take years to develop.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2842/dfwrail.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dfwrail.jpg)

If the Texas high-speed rail line is built to serve DFW, where would the station be placed?

[staplesla]

Can't the future Cotton Belt trains share the T station platforms? Between Terminal A/B the commuter rail track can terminate into 2 platforms: one to Plano and one to Fort Worth. The Orange Line terminates beside this in 2 platforms of its own. This provides easy transfers between lines and the convenience of easy airport access directly to the terminals via Skylink or connecting walkways.

Northwest of 121/114 on the land planned for mixed-use development (notice how DFW is pushing development on all its land to bring in more revenue) there is a shared commuter rail platform for passengers transfering between Fort Worth and Plano. This keeps the commuting traffic out of the airport but provides direct service to the terminals from both lines. It also makes DFW the main terminus station instead of an empty field which may take years to develop.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2842/dfwrail.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dfwrail.jpg)

If the Texas high-speed rail line is built to serve DFW, where would the station be placed?

FYI - Current plans don't include a connection to Skylink. Skylink is on the secured side of the airport and the current plans have DART/T connecting to the terminals on the outside of the secured areas. Passengers would have to get off the light rail, check their bags/go through security, then get on Skylink.

[electricron]

FYI - Current plans don't include a connection to Skylink. Skylink is on the secured side of the airport and the current plans have DART/T connecting to the terminals on the outside of the secured areas. Passengers would have to get off the light rail, check their bags/go through security, then get on Skylink.

You got the present plan almost correct, except for a major detail. As I understand it, you will not be able to board the Skylink at all at the DFW rail station. DFW wasn't planning to add a new Skylink station. You'll have to walk into either Terminal A or B, go through existing security at the Terminals, then board the Skylink to reach a different Terminal. Which isn't what people want. I think the changes they're discussing is to build a new Skylink Station north of the Skylink's maintenenace shop next to the remote north parking lot, so you can check bags, go through security, and use the Skylink train. The locale for this new Skylink Station doesn't necessarily have to be near any of the Terminals, it could be located far away as far as the Grapevine rail station.

[tamtagon]

...I think the changes they're discussing is to build a new Skylink Station north of the Skylink's maintenenace shop next to the remote north parking lot, so you can check bags, go through security, and use the Skylink train.

The way I see it, DFW's gotta make way for a single station to receive train riders from DART and The T with room to accommodate intrastate rail service, meet them with baggage check and direct access to Skylink, otherwise a huge waste of resources would have occurred.

[electricron]

The way I see it, DFW's gotta make way for a single station to receive train riders from DART and The T with room to accommodate intrastate rail service, meet them with baggage check and direct access to Skylink, otherwise a huge waste of resources would have occurred.

I agree, and that's what I'm thinking every organization is discussing. I don't think many passengers would travel all the way to DFW to walk an average of 800 feet to enter a terminal, which may not be the terminal their flights use.
DFW can't place a Skylink terminal at the planned rail stations because that's where the Skylink's guideway to its maintenance shop is located. Anywhere north of the maintenance shop would work.

[NThomas]

The way I see it, DFW's gotta make way for a single station to receive train riders from DART and The T with room to accommodate intrastate rail service, meet them with baggage check and direct access to Skylink, otherwise a huge waste of resources would have occurred.

I agree. Look at Atlanta's setup. MARTA runs to the front door of the main terminal and then the tram connects you past security. Even though DFW has 5 equal terminals (opposed to ATL's main terminal with 6 concourses) if DFW's Skylink, DART, The T & the future HSR can all have a terminus at transportation terminal that would incorporate a "13th" SkyLink station, then DFW would be set apart compared to other United States airports.

[electricron]

I agree. Look at Atlanta's setup. MARTA runs to the front door of the main terminal and then the tram connects you past security. Even though DFW has 5 equal terminals (opposed to ATL's main terminal with 6 concourses) if DFW's Skylink, DART, The T & the future HSR can all have a terminus at transportation terminal that would incorporate a "13th" SkyLink station, then DFW would be set apart compared to other United States airports.

To give DFW a little break, they left room and had plans for a 13th Skylink Station on the south side near the new International Terminal. For HSR and TRE access. Guess what, the transit agencies now want to access the airport from the north. Makes you feel sorry for DFW doesn't it? Of course, neither agency wants to go that far south. So DFW now must plan for a Skylink Station on the north, where they built the maintenance shop. I suggest they could extend their guideways to the north from the maintenance shop is the cheapest solution, then an integrated light rail, commuter rail, and Skylink station could be built. Save the HSR and TRE integration for the planned 13th street station on the south, which may never be built, at least not well in the future.

What they had planned to do isn't being received well by the public, so they are now looking at doing something different and better. How far north can they build it and still be acceptable for DFW passengers? I think north of SH114, where the TOD will be, may be too far north for the much slower Skylink to be effective. It'll require DART's light rail to cross SH 114 again. I would rather see DART's tracks to the east, Cotton Belt spur tracks to the west, and Skylink in the middle of the Airport Parkway, with connecting platforms over the Parkway.

[xen0blue]

this is crazy, leave it the way it's planned.

[electricron]

this is crazy, leave it the way it's planned.

Which will be cheaper on the transit agencies because users will have to walk an additional 800 feet to the closest airport terminals, loaded down with all their bags. It is worth the time and expense to study to see if it's possible for passengers to check in their checked bags at either train station.

[DFWCRE8TIVE]

Even if DFW builds a new Skylink station to whisk passengers to their gate after a dedicated check-in, those same returning passengers would have to take a shuttle bus from their baggage claim to the station (much like the current problem of parking at one terminal and arriving at another). DFW is not going to build a special baggage carousel for transit users at the rail station.

A new or separate people mover from the station to terminals would require a lot of work since it would have to be a separate system on the land side. The old guideway would be hard to recycle since it is not bi-directional, and I think they are re-purposing the old station areas for improved luggage screening systems.

I still think leaving the station between A/B with corridors connecting the terminals plus an integrated bus station would be the most practical. There really doesn't need to be a new Skylink station. Put buses on a lower level below the rail platforms, connected via elevators and ramps. It would be essential to have step-free access and frequent low-floor buses to the terminals. This could replace the current Terminal Link service.

Moving the station further north increases the cost and lengthens shuttle journeys to the terminals. When passengers arrive at the rail station they expect a quick transfer to their terminal.

[mrowl]

It would be much easier, and cheaper to transition the baggage areas to inside security. It would be as simple as moving some doors in some places. D would cost more...

[staplesla]

Even if DFW builds a new Skylink station to whisk passengers to their gate after a dedicated check-in, those same returning passengers would have to take a shuttle bus from their baggage claim to the station (much like the current problem of parking at one terminal and arriving at another). DFW is not going to build a special baggage carousel for transit users at the rail station.

A new or separate people mover from the station to terminals would require a lot of work since it would have to be a separate system on the land side. The old guideway would be hard to recycle since it is not bi-directional, and I think they are re-purposing the old station areas for improved luggage screening systems.

I still think leaving the station between A/B with corridors connecting the terminals plus an integrated bus station would be the most practical. There really doesn't need to be a new Skylink station. Put buses on a lower level below the rail platforms, connected via elevators and ramps. It would be essential to have step-free access and frequent low-floor buses to the terminals. This could replace the current Terminal Link service.

Moving the station further north increases the cost and lengthens shuttle journeys to the terminals. When passengers arrive at the rail station they expect a quick transfer to their terminal.

I've never understood why they have baggage claims on the outside of the security gates. I flew in/out of DFW 91 times last year and of all the airports I've been in, I hate DFW more than any. This is just because I have to exit security, grab my bag, then wait for a stupid shuttle at 11 pm to get back to a terminal with my car. If baggage claims were in the secured portion you could grab your bag, then get right on the Skylink. In addition, why is it on the outside anyway, where anyone can just grab your bag?

[mjblazin]

A purpose of checked baggage is to allow people to transport items that we don't want in the cabin. If baggage claim was within security, then you could check your bag for one flight, pick it on arrival and then take it on any subsequent flight without any further review

Baggage claim is also where other people can help you with your bags as you arrive. How do you help your grandmother or mother with bags to the car if it's behind security?

DFW is a unique challenge, Make your car parking decision based on the returning flight history. Look up the last week and note pattern in terminal assignments. If it differs from departing flight, get there early, park car at arrival prediction and take Skylink to departing terminal. Since only American crosses terminals, you can check bags at any one of them for departing flight.

[aygriffith]

Many of you really must like to roll the dice on checking baggage. If you incorporate a baggage check into the DART/T station you are going to add another element of complexity to making sure your bag gets to your plane. Even the best scenario which puts airline staff managed baggage counters at the station would still involve another 15 to 20 mins of transit time for your bags to get to the plane.

The one aspect of the potential equation that should be avoided is Buses. DFW has more buses than most travelers can stomach. It was a mistake for the airport to build a new rental car facility and not connect it with a automated tram and for them not to look to utilize the old TrAAin/Employee mover to get people from terminal to terminal on the land side was a mistake too.

As for what the current trAAin spaces are being used for... Pappas restaurants was supposed to use the space in A and C.

http://startelegram.typepad.com/sky_talk/2007/10/pappas-bros-com.html

[electricron]

Many of you really must like to roll the dice on checking baggage. If you incorporate a baggage check into the DART/T station you are going to add another element of complexity to making sure your bag gets to your plane. Even the best scenario which puts airline staff managed baggage counters at the station would still involve another 15 to 20 mins of transit time for your bags to get to the plane.

The one aspect of the potential equation that should be avoided is Buses. DFW has more buses than most travelers can stomach. It was a mistake for the airport to build a new rental car facility and not connect it with a automated tram and for them not to look to utilize the old TrAAin/Employee mover to get people from terminal to terminal on the land side was a mistake too.

I agree. Which is one reason why I suggested upgrading the old people mover.
The new Skylink is great moving from the air side of one terminal to another, but what's needed is another Skylink moving between terminals on the ground side too. Minimally, ground side to both terminals A & B from the train stations for departing passengers. In terminals A & B, you could check through security and get on the Skylink to transfer to other terminals. But you'll need the entire loop for arriving passengers.

I did like the idea of moving the baggage claim areas into the security area. But you wouldn't be able to use the exit doors directly, you'll have to be steered somehow through security to depart the terminals. Otherwise, a departing passenger could allow an arriving passenger to bypass security checkpoints.

Each potential solution seems to cause further problems.

[staplesla]

A purpose of checked baggage is to allow people to transport items that we don't want in the cabin. If baggage claim was within security, then you could check your bag for one flight, pick it on arrival and then take it on any subsequent flight without any further review

Baggage claim is also where other people can help you with your bags as you arrive. How do you help your grandmother or mother with bags to the car if it's behind security?

DFW is a unique challenge, Make your car parking decision based on the returning flight history. Look up the last week and note pattern in terminal assignments. If it differs from departing flight, get there early, park car at arrival prediction and take Skylink to departing terminal. Since only American crosses terminals, you can check bags at any one of them for departing flight.

Lol, I try that, but after landing it never fails that we are told we have been moved to another gate. Plus most of my flights are book the day of by my assistant so I don't have a lot of time to do that.

And I'm sure DFW could have a service that would assist passenger with heavy amounts of bags, or they can just rent the carts like they do now.

[cowboyeagle05]

I think what we are all complaining about has to due with the fact that DFW is and has been a very large a busy airport in the entire US let alone the world. That which was designed to construct new terminals easy without even distributing another Terminal. Which makes it great for adding new terminals but terrible for connecting people to connecting flights when they have to get transported to another terminal that is not connected except by roads.

I've been to other airports where they have been thrown together over the years and subsequently the layouts are all over the place and entrances to terminals are all squeezed together causing bottle necks and miss-matched additions. DFW was a great design to allow it to expand rapidly but its taken a long time for them to work out some of the kinks like parking one place and getting to another. DART and all other transportation officials are working together to figure out how to make it easier to train to the DFW Airport believe me cause DFW does not want LOVE field to seem easier with their people mover system. All parties involved are going to come up with some solution.

Just look at Love it was not originally designed to function as it does today another reason they are entirely rebuilding the terminals which will eliminate the mess of terminals there is now at Love. I like the competition between the two airports they push each other to improve.

[electricron]

I like the competition between the two airports they push each other to improve.

I agree.

[mjblazin]

I too often note the last minute terminal changes, but every time it was a reversion to the mean - the projected terminal based on past data, not on scheduled data. That would mean AA consistently tries to get plane to one set of gates, but predominately the plane ends up at a different set. Why not just go with the trend, I don't know.

[oldchap]

The way SkyLink is placed really caters for passengers that are just in transit at DFW. Personally, it would have been better if SkyLink was on the grounded side, outside security. That way the Orange Line and the T could connect with a 13th SkyLink station. Passengers could then get off the train, and take a SkyLink tram, with their luggage, to their terminals and check in as normal. Returning passengers would have a much easier time too.

Anyone know why they chose to build SkyLink to cater for people who are just passing through, instead of for people who actually live in the area?