Orange Line - DFW Airport Rail Connection

[electricron]

Coppell *was* a member city, though... they were a 1983 charter member, but pulled out (along with Flower Mound) in 1989. 20 years later, and they want a rail station? Well, I guess they've got 6 years' more revenue in the DART coffers than Mesquite...

... ok, that's just sour grapes. I figure whoever ponys up the dough, gets the station. Especially if Coppell puts their money where their mouth is *before* the Cotton Belt Line opens up... that might allow DART to skip "Phase 1" and just run the Orange Line to DFW via Coppell Station.

(Note that any option like that, short of full DART membership, depends on the Texas Legislature getting off its butt and passing a transit funding option bill.)

DART is putting up the money for the Orange Line. I'm not so sure DART is going to put up much money for the Cotton Belt line, at least not initially......

[dfwcre8tive]

Updated renderings and site plans for the stations can be found here:

http://www.dartnet.org/connect/boardagendas/032310Planning.pdf

from: http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/03/dart_wants_to_take_you_to_the.php

[mrowl]

Updated renderings and site plans for the stations can be found here:

http://www.dartnet.org/connect/boardagendas/032310Planning.pdf

from: http://blogs.dallasobserver.com/unfairpark/2010/03/dart_wants_to_take_you_to_the.php

cool. give me something to look at this afternoon.

[dfwcre8tive]

I still think the alignment is kind of silly. A more practical (but expensive) solution would have been to tunnel directly west to the terminals, then run north past the terminals and terminate at the DFW North Station.

[gchrisbailey]

I still think the alignment is kind of silly. A more practical (but expensive) solution would have been to tunnel directly west to the terminals, then run north past the terminals and terminate at the DFW North Station.

...and completely bypass Las Colinas? The Orange Line's whole purpose is to connect downtown/uptown Dallas with Las Colinas and DFW...

[tamtagon]

...and completely bypass Las Colinas? The Orange Line's whole purpose is to connect downtown/uptown Dallas with Las Colinas and DFW...

I think he means run a tunnel from (about) the Beltline station as the line exits Las Colinas and enters the Airport, then continue the line from the airport to the DFW North Station - Cotton Belt.

As the central connecting station for trains coming from Tarrant County, Collin County and Dallas County, (and maybe one day Denton County), the DFW North Station is likely to end up as one of the busiest stations in North Texas. I can see the benefit of a route which takes people into Dallas proper without having to stop at the airport....

[tamtagon]

In what city will the DFW North Station be located? I'm thinking it's in Grapevine, right?

[dfwcre8tive]

I think he means run a tunnel from (about) the Beltline station as the line exits Las Colinas and enters the Airport, then continue the line from the airport to the DFW North Station - Cotton Belt.

As the central connecting station for trains coming from Tarrant County, Collin County and Dallas County, (and maybe one day Denton County), the DFW North Station is likely to end up as one of the busiest stations in North Texas. I can see the benefit of a route which takes people into Dallas proper without having to stop at the airport....

Yes, that's what I meant. And I agree with you on the benefits of having a direct line from DFW North to Downtown Dallas, it just seems the current plans seem to have a lot of unnecessary loops and track.

[dfwcre8tive]

In what city will the DFW North Station be located? I'm thinking it's in Grapevine, right?

It's DFW Airport property, but I think the tax revenues go to Grapevine.

[tamtagon]

Hum.....

So, is DFW Airport a member of DART? If Grapevine will be able to claim and tax revenue from the build out of the big train station, Grapevine should also contribute to the Orange Line and Cotton Belt.

Probably, before the trains from Fort Worth and Plano to the airport start to get tracks laid, all North Texas transit agencies will operate under new state law allowing for true cooperation and balanced revenue sourcing. I hope.

[NThomas]

Hum.....

So, is DFW Airport a member of DART? If Grapevine will be able to claim and tax revenue from the build out of the big train station, Grapevine should also contribute to the Orange Line and Cotton Belt.

Probably, before the trains from Fort Worth and Plano to the airport start to get tracks laid, all North Texas transit agencies will operate under new state law allowing for true cooperation and balanced revenue sourcing. I hope.
Hmmmm Good point. Bypassing the whole Grapevine issue, isn't DFW co-owned by the Cities of Dallas and Fort Worth?

[TheMapman]

DFW Airport is not a member of DART, and it is co-owned by Dallas and Fort Worth.

And I agree that Grapevine should be paying into DART one way or another if they get this station.

[saxman66]

Grapevine is paying a half cent sales tax toward the SW2NE commuter rail. Should they also be paying DART as well?

[NThomas]

Grapevine is paying a half cent sales tax toward the SW2NE commuter rail. Should they also be paying DART as well?
Maybe that's a good reason the SW2NE, Cotton Belt & Orange line should terminate at DFW Airport. If Grapevine is paying into the SW2NE, that should be the only line at their station.

[dfwcre8tive]

DART promises Irving officials that rail line to D/FW will get priority
09:31 PM CDT on Wednesday, April 14, 2010
By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News
bformby@dallasnews.com
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/041510dnmetirvdart.39ffbe0.html

DART president Gary Thomas promised Irving officials Wednesday that the planned Orange Line to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport will take priority over Dallas' second downtown rail line.

Thomas' remarks to Irving City Council members come as DART officials face mounting pressure to keep the agency's member cities happy while the agency considers cutting about $3 billion in projects from its long-range plans.

But later in the day, Irving Mayor Herbert Gears called for a meeting of the mayors from all 13 of the DART member cities. He wants them to discuss the region's light rail network, expanding the DART service area and the completion of planned projects.

Gears said he doesn't want Thomas or the agency to feel threatened. The mayor described the May 14 meeting as a chance for those who have invested in DART to reassess the operations and plans of an agency that most of them agreed to join in the early 1980s.

"There was a different set of priorities back then," Gears said.

Dismal sales tax revenues and lower population growth estimates will probably lead to setbacks in DART projects not already under construction, though the details of the effects have yet to be worked out. DART board members will get a first look at the revenue slump's impact on capital projects April 27. Any final decisions about delays will be made by the board, not the staff.

The three major projects threatened with delay are downtown Dallas' second line, the third leg of Irving's Orange Line and the south Oak Cliff extension of the blue line from Ledbetter Station to the University of North Texas' Dallas campus.

...

The first phase will not open in December 2011 as originally planned. But Thomas said the agency hopes to minimize that delay. The second phase through Las Colinas's Urban Center is still expected to open by December 2012.

"I don't have the answers today," Thomas told council members when they asked about how the Orange Line's final phase would be affected.

Stopfer expressed anger that passenger service along the Cotton Belt corridor, which the Regional Transportation Council is trying to fast track, could be a reality before the Orange Line reaches the airport.

He said that some of the possible financing mechanisms that would speed up the project would allow transit-oriented development in non-DART cities to compete with Irving's planned project.

Stopfer said a collaboration of all cities, like the meeting called by Gears, would allow everyone to work together. If officials focus solely on projects in their cities, he said, they could end up fighting each other over dwindling regional and federal transportation funds at the behest of the regional network of rail lines.

"It's almost like we're in this competition," Stopfer told Thomas.

[tamtagon]

^It's going to add to downtown train congestion, but airport stations (DFW & Love) are long overdue. Way overdue.

[PuddinHead]

^It's going to add to downtown train congestion, but airport stations (DFW & Love) are long overdue. Way overdue.

Not really since the Orange and Green lines will still connect at Union Station they do not follow the Red and Blue routes North and South through the rest of downtown.

[Random Traffic Guy]

Not really since the Orange and Green lines will still connect at Union Station they do not follow the Red and Blue routes North and South through the rest of downtown.

Hrm?? Green line doesn't go through downtown? Also, I have heard from DART that at least Red Line trains will turn into Green/Orange when going through downtown. I inferred Blue may do it too depending on schedules. No connection needed from Red Line out to Medical Center/Las Colinas will be very convenient, if a bit slow.

[electricron]

Not really since the Orange and Green lines will still connect at Union Station they do not follow the Red and Blue routes North and South through the rest of downtown.

???????????????? You may initially be correct about the Orange Line, but definitiely not about the Green Line. The Green Line turns east between Victory and Union Stations, through the Pacific-Bryan street malls, then heads southeast through Deep Ellum to Fair Park and beyond. If the Orange Line follows the Green Line through downtown Dallas, it too will not go to Union Station....

http://www.dart.org/images/expansion/orangelinemapjun09.gif

[RobertB]

Not really since the Orange and Green lines will still connect at Union Station they do not follow the Red and Blue routes North and South through the rest of downtown.
I haven't seen any plan that involves the Orange and Green lines serving Union Station, with or without D2. The only way I can see that would be if you routed O/G through Union and Cedars, then through the maintenance yard, with the Green Line going to Buckner via MLK and the Orange Line going to Mockingbird via Fair Park/Baylor/Deep Ellum. Service level considerations aside, that's not currently doable because of the grade-level freight crossing on the maintenance yard spur from Cedars.

[Mballar]

^ I think the new station renderings recently posted over in the other Orange Line thread suggest that the Orange Line will stop at Parker Road Starion in Plano, AND the Lawnview Station in Pleasant Grove. If that's the case, it would appear that the Orange Line is going through the existing transit mall. . .at least until the D2 alignment is funished.

Las Colinas Urban Center

http://www.dart.org/images/newsroom/preview/lascolinasurbancenterstationrendering3.jpg

[gchrisbailey]

^ I think the new station renderings recently posted over in the other Orange Line thread suggest that the Orange Line will stop at Parker Road Starion in Plano, AND the Lawnview Station in Pleasant Grove. If that's the case, it would appear that the Orange Line is going through the existing transit mall. . .at least until the D2 alignment is funished.

Las Colinas Urban Center

http://www.dart.org/images/newsroom/preview/lascolinasurbancenterstationrendering3.jpg

The Orange Line will have to go through the existing lines downtown and then connect with the Red and Green line stops so riders can change trains to go to Parker Road and Lawnview respectively...

I'm assuming that you weren't saying that the Orange line will actually go to these stations...

[dfwcre8tive]

The Orange Line will have to go through the existing lines downtown and then connect with the Red and Green line stops so riders can change trains to go to Parker Road and Lawnview respectively...

I'm assuming that you weren't saying that the Orange line will actually go to these stations...

The plan proposed in one of DART's recent documents is to terminate the Orange Line at Lawnview Station. During peak hours (rush hour) it will also terminate at Parker Road. If this is still the case, the Orange Line most definitely will make stops at every downtown transit mall station.

[Mballar]

The Orange Line will have to go through the existing lines downtown and then connect with the Red and Green line stops so riders can change trains to go to Parker Road and Lawnview respectively...

I'm assuming that you weren't saying that the Orange line will actually go to these stations...

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. According to the station rendering above, the Orange Line would terminate at Park Lane and Lawnview. Maybe the rendering is wrong, though.

[NThomas]

The Orange Line will have to go through the existing lines downtown and then connect with the Red and Green line stops so riders can change trains to go to Parker Road and Lawnview respectively...

I'm assuming that you weren't saying that the Orange line will actually go to these stations...
The easiest way to understand it is visually. Check out Dfwcre8tive's linear diagram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:DART_Orange_Line)

[gchrisbailey]

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. According to the station rendering above, the Orange Line would terminate at Park Lane and Lawnview. Maybe the rendering is wrong, though.

I am pleasantly surprised to be wrong in this case...I was looking at the rendering assuming that the "orange line to Lawnview" etc. meant you took the train to the last Green Line station and then changed trains to a Green one to get to Lawnview...if the Orange is going to run parallel to the Green (and apparently Red during peak hours), it makes a hell of lot more sense than I thought DART was capable of...

Pretty cool to think that by 2013 (hopefully) someone in Plano can pack their bags, catch the train at Parker Road, and ride all the way to DFW to catch a flight...

[NThomas]

I am pleasantly surprised to be wrong in this case...I was looking at the rendering assuming that the "orange line to Lawnview" etc. meant you took the train to the last Green Line station and then changed trains to a Green one to get to Lawnview...if the Orange is going to run parallel to the Green (and apparently Red during peak hours), it makes a hell of lot more sense than I thought DART was capable of...

Pretty cool to think that by 2013 (hopefully) someone in Plano can pack their bags, catch the train at Parker Road, and ride all the way to DFW to catch a flight...
Only during rush hour... :2doh:

I do like the idea but can somebody explain why DART is deciding to have "two" orange lines? Why not just make things a hell of a lot simpler and just call it what it is, a different line all together.

The Orange Line should just be the DFW Airport-Lawnview (eventually Masters) route and the "Brown, White, Black, Purple, Teal, etc" Line should be the DFW Airport-Parker Road line.

Am I the only one who thinks have "two" Orange Lines, both with different a different terminus, is a bad idea as far a naming schemes go even if one is a rush hour only route?

[mjblazin]

If the Orange Line coming downtown is a driver for D2, why not just stop it at Bachman? I realize people may want to ride all the way downtown, but we are talking hundreds of millions of dollars.

[GreenzaLine]

I really don't think having a line that branches will be that confusing, even if they ran DFW Airport – Parker Road trains all day. It only takes a minute to look at a map/diagram and realize, "Oh, there's a branch." And wouldn't you be looking at one anyway if you didn't know where you were going?

The destination signs on the trains and at the stations will be pretty unambiguous too. For example, in 2014, Mockingbird Station will have signs that look something like this:

(Northbound Platform)
Red Line to Parker Road
Blue Line to Downtown Rowlett
Orange Line to Parker Road

(Southbound Platform)
Red Line to Westmoreland
Blue Line to Ledbetter
Orange Line to DFW Airport

And in the CBD, you just have to hop on the train with the destination you're looking for. Color doesn't even matter.

The signs'll be a little funny, though, since they'll be so packed.

(Eastbound Platform)
Red Line to Parker Road
Blue Line to Downtown Rowlett
Green Line to Buckner
Orange Line to Lawnview
Orange Line to Parker Road

(Westbound Platform)
Red Line to Westmoreland
Blue Line to Ledbetter
Green Line to North Carrollton/Frankford
Orange Line to DFW Airport
(...and something about trains bound for Victory Sta.)

Really, I think it'll be pretty easy to follow.

Besides, at least it's not Paris's seven-terminus RER C.

[dfwcre8tive]

Only during rush hour... :2doh:

I do like the idea but can somebody explain why DART is deciding to have "two" orange lines? Why not just make things a hell of a lot simpler and just call it what it is, a different line all together.

The Orange Line should just be the DFW Airport-Lawnview (eventually Masters) route and the "Brown, White, Black, Purple, Teal, etc" Line should be the DFW Airport-Parker Road line.

Am I the only one who thinks have "two" Orange Lines, both with different a different terminus, is a bad idea as far a naming schemes go even if one is a rush hour only route?

I don't think it's any more difficult than paying attention to the Red/Blue Line Trains that terminate at Cedars. With the recently improved signage and automated voice announcements, it should be easy to figure out where the train is heading. Creating a 5th colored line may help riders better visualize the system routes, but it's probably not needed.

The NW / Irving segment of the Orange line is going to stay pretty busy and need frequent trains, while the SE and NE segments will already be served by separate lines. Alternating the trains between those 2 lines will help spread capacity to where it's needed (for example, Orange Line trains every 10 minutes at Las Colinas Urban Center Station; every 20 minutes at Mockingbird Station and Fair Park Station). This could be their idea for peak service.

[jsoto3]

If the Orange Line coming downtown is a driver for D2, why not just stop it at Bachman? I realize people may want to ride all the way downtown, but we are talking hundreds of millions of dollars.
Why stop it at Bachman and not serve downtown when it is easy to do so? The track that the Orange Line will use to get downtown is already there or will soon be completed (Green Line). D2 doesn't need to be in place to get Orange Line trains downtown, just to get them through downtown. They could at least take it to Union Station, where it would terminate and serve as a good interim transfer station (in lieu of the West End/Metro Center Station as planned with D2). Transfers to the Green Line would be at Victory. This would keep it off the transit mall for now (which is the problem D2 is trying to solve when the line needs to pass through downtown), unlike what is currently shown in DART's current and future services map:
http://www.dart.org/maps/currentandfutureservicesmap.asp

[tamtagon]

They could at least take it to Union Station, where it would terminate and serve as a good interim transfer station (in lieu of the West End/Metro Center Station as planned with D2). Transfers to the Green Line would be at Victory.
http://www.dart.org/maps/currentandfutureservicesmap.asp

That's probably what'll happen until D2 is built. Functionally, I think Collin County will have to wait for the Cotton Belt to take them to the airport, it'll take a long time to get from Plano, through Downtown, to the airport. If the Orange trains add capacity to the Red/Blue lines, then that's the reason to put Orange in Plano.

Will Blue and Red line trains to the airports?

[GreenzaLine]

That's probably what'll happen until D2 is built. Functionally, I think Collin County will have to wait for the Cotton Belt to take them to the airport, it'll take a long time to get from Plano, through Downtown, to the airport. If the Orange trains add capacity to the Red/Blue lines, then that's the reason to put Orange in Plano.

Will Blue and Red line trains to the airports?

No, the Orange Line is running north to Parker Road to supplement the Red Line, which I hear can get a little overwhelmed during rush hour.

Besides, from the sound of it, the PPP will get sorted out and the Cotton Belt Line will be starting up right around the time the Orange Line reaches DFW.

[electricron]

No, the Orange Line is running north to Parker Road to supplement the Red Line, which I hear can get a little overwhelmed during rush hour.
Besides, from the sound of it, the PPP will get sorted out and the Cotton Belt Line will be starting up right around the time the Orange Line reaches DFW.

Just to add a little to the discussion, presently the Red Line runs two trains through the downtown street mall for every Green or Blue Line train. Making every other Red Line train an Orange Line train doesn't reduce the number of trains heading towards Plano, nor increase the number of trains in the downtown street mall. Although Red Line service south towards Oak Cliff will be halved.

This arrangement could be a temporary solution until both the Orange and Green Line trains are diverted to the future-new-build D2 corridor.

I'll admit I don't know what DART will do, but this scenario keeps train frequencies up on the Red Line north of downtown without overcrowding the streetmall downtown with more trains.

Likewise, during the State Fair, Orange Line trains through downtown can be diverted to the Green Line up to Fair Park. A temporary solution to double the number of trains for the Green Line when it is needed. The Orange Line trains would follow the Red Line during rush hours when the Red Line needs help, and be diverted to the Green Line when the Fair is open mid day and late evening.

[RobertB]

This just in (cross-posting in DFW and D2 threads):

COMMUNITY MEETING/PUBLIC HEARING NOTICES
DART Hosting Pre-Public Hearing Community Meeting for Orange Line's Irving-3 Segment to DFW Airport
A special Pre-Public Hearing Community Meeting has been scheduled for the Orange Line to present the latest Environmental Assessment information for Phase 1 of the Irving-3 segment into DFW Airport.
http://www.dart.org/meetings/publicmeetingsrss.asp?ID=429

To better prepare everyone for the public hearing scheduled for late Spring 2010, this community meeting will provide information on the environmental analysis, alignment, grade separation, and station locations. Also, immediately following the Irving-3 Community Meeting, DART will conduct a D2 Community Meeting for those interested in the Downtown Dallas alignment options. The Orange and Green Lines will operate along the D2 alignment in the future.

The Irving-3 Pre-Public Hearing Community Meeting will be held:

Wednesday, April 28, 2010 - 5:30 p.m.
DFW Airport Marriott - Ballroom Area
8440 Freeport Parkway
Irving, Texas 75063
MAPSCO 11-U
(Along DART Bus Route 310)

For more information, contact DART Community Affairs at 214-749-2543.

[Mac_Giolla]

Does anybody know why they are not trying to connect the DFW station to Centrepoint Station? Wouldn't that have been the cheapest and quickest way to connect DFW Airport to the Rail network? The same line going up to DFW North Station could also run down the Western side of International Pkwy, bridge/tunnel 183, go along the developments on the Westside of Amon Carter and then tunnel from Trinity Blvd then pop up at a right angle to the TRE Centrepoint Station.

[cmacemm]

I think that station might actually be in Fort Worth City limits so that might be a reason

[RobertB]

Another issue is that heavy rail, at least with the technology currently in use, doesn't do well with that right-angle turn. You have to build a big, sweeping curve, which would require ROW acquisitions. (Though I do wish I could see exactly what would be required.)

[electricron]

Does anybody know why they are not trying to connect the DFW station to Centrepoint Station? Wouldn't that have been the cheapest and quickest way to connect DFW Airport to the Rail network? The same line going up to DFW North Station could also run down the Western side of International Pkwy, bridge/tunnel 183, go along the developments on the Westside of Amon Carter and then tunnel from Trinity Blvd then pop up at a right angle to the TRE Centrepoint Station.

The Cotton Belt and TRE will both be/are FRA complaint commuter rail trains. The proper technology to use between them will be FRA compliant commuter rail trains. The present plans include light rail on the east side, and commuter rail on the west side, of International Parkway. If extending a line between DFW Airport and Centerpoint is going to be done, might as well use a train that can actually share the existing tracks at those stations.....
Additionally, there are plans for extending high speed rail to DFW Airport. Whether it will be FRA compliant or not, whether it will be built or not, the most likely access will be from the TRE corridor. It most likely will be better waiting to lay the tracks between Centerpoint and DFW Airport after an actual decision is made what train is to be built, otherwise you risk building the wrong type of track.
The Orange Line is being built for the purpose of connecting DFW passengers to downtown Dallas and the rest of DART's light rail and bus network. It's not being built to connect TRE passengers to DFW Airport. As for which route would be cheaper, it's just 5 miles or so from Beltline Station in Irving to the DFW Airport Station, all of it at grade. Very little to no tunneling and aerial guideways are needed. It's just as long between Centerpoint Station and DFW Airport, with lots of tunneling or aerial guideways required. I'm going to suggest building a rail corridor mostly at grade is far more than twice as cheap than not.
Besides, given the choice of taking light rail to downtown Dallas with at worse 15 to 30 minute headways or taking light rail to Centerpoint to catch a train with at worse 60 to 120 minute headways, which one would you take? I'll be taking light rail, and so will almost everyone else.
You gain nothing building a light rail line to Centerpoint from DFW Airport, except waste a lot of money that could be used for something else, possibly high speed rail in the future.

[mjblazin]

Also TRE does not run on Sunday.

Why doesn't TRE run on holidays? TRE always downshifts in schedule at every holiday and holiday eve. I understand why a normal Sunday is for maintenance. I don't think anyone is doing maintenance on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years Day.

[electricron]

Also TRE does not run on Sunday.

Why doesn't the TRE run on holidays?

The very same reason why most businesses and all governmental buildings close on holidays. :2doh:
It's a HOLIDAY! :woot:

[mjblazin]

So what. The buses and other trains run.

[RobertB]

So what. The buses and other trains run.
But at a very reduced schedule. The labor costs of running a holiday commuter rail train are likely far in excess of whatever return would be likely. Maybe once they do have Sunday service, it'll fix the chicken-and-egg problem to where Sunday-schedule holiday service would be warranted.

[gchrisbailey]

Was around Las Colinas today...here are some progress shots of the Orange Line:
http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/3338/20110419123343822.th.jpg (http://img18.imageshack.us/i/20110419123343822.jpg/)

http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/113/20110419123419643.th.jpg (http://img851.imageshack.us/i/20110419123419643.jpg/)

The current stopping point of the people mover in Las Colinas...these columns may be new...perhaps building a stairway down to the Urban Center station?
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/8708/20110419124345764.th.jpg (http://img848.imageshack.us/i/20110419124345764.jpg/)

Las Colinas Urban Center Station...
http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/5370/20110419124532392.th.jpg (http://img826.imageshack.us/i/20110419124532392.jpg/)