Orange Line - DFW Airport Rail Connection

[Mballar]

sw2ne has a stated timeline of revenue service by 2013... that's a far cry from 15 years... granted there will most likely be federal govt delays... but the hulen to airport segment should come on line roughly the same time as phase 3 of the orange line.
Yeah, but I'm not worried about the T. I was referring to DART's portion of the Cotton Belt Line, which is not funded, and does not have a stated revenue service date. IMHO, If there's no Cotton Belt service between the Airport and Plano, then there's no rush in building a station at the proposed Grapevine location.

[aygriffith]

I love it... This is truly a forum divided. Only at DFWMetropolis would people advocate for our new expensive airport train to stop OUTSIDE of the airport! DFW is already embarassing when trying to explain public transportation access to it, but to build a train that stops north of the airport is as useless as you getting off of it and waiting 15 years for that Cottonbelt train that isn't coming.

This whole fiasco sounds like we're well on our way to Airtrain JFK's 1.8 billion dollar price tag to connect all the terminals outside of security using another Skylink type system connecting to a train station just out of reach of the airport. But we get another neat train project to talk about! Right?

In the mean time we can add ourselves to the ranks of great airports with who built public transportation systems near the airport and not in it... Newark, JFK and LAX come to mind. In the mean time we have airports like PHL, ATL, STL, ORD, MDW which are a few who already have rail or light rail directly to one or all terminals. SEA is building their light rail connection to the terminal and SLC is planning theirs direct to the terminal.

So it looks like the Dallas Ft Worth region will potentially be proud to have two airports with light rail not quite to the airport... DFW and DAL. BRAVO!

[TexasStar]

^ Agreed! No direct airport access is just plain dumb.

[NThomas]

I love it... This is truly a forum divided. Only at DFWMetropolis would people advocate for our new expensive airport train to stop OUTSIDE of the airport! DFW is already embarassing when trying to explain public transportation access to it, but to build a train that stops north of the airport is as useless as you getting off of it and waiting 15 years for that Cottonbelt train that isn't coming.

This whole fiasco sounds like we're well on our way to Airtrain JFK's 1.8 billion dollar price tag to connect all the terminals outside of security using another Skylink type system connecting to a train station just out of reach of the airport. But we get another neat train project to talk about! Right?

In the mean time we can add ourselves to the ranks of great airports with who built public transportation systems near the airport and not in it... Newark, JFK and LAX come to mind. In the mean time we have airports like PHL, ATL, STL, ORD, MDW which are a few who already have rail or light rail directly to one or all terminals. SEA is building their light rail connection to the terminal and SLC is planning theirs direct to the terminal.

So it looks like the Dallas Ft Worth region will potentially be proud to have two airports with light rail not quite to the airport... DFW and DAL. BRAVO!
So when you step off the Orange line at the "station" between terminals A & B, and your flight takes off from Terminal C, D, E or the southern most gates at A or B, you'll still be riding a bus like at Love Field :uhoh: Then, on your return flight, we can all enjoy the bus ride to the northern most part of Terminal A after we pick up our luggage from the baggage claim from Terminal D. :rolleyes:

[ihavebeenseen]

Today at DFW you drive to long term parking and take long shuttle ride to A,B,C,D,E. So you are telling me that I can take a train and if I happen to be flying out of C,D, or E I will need to take a very short shuttle. Sounds good to me. Saves me time and money.

Today at DAL you drive to massive monolithic parking garage, search for parking then potentially walk a very long distance. Then coming back presents the challenge of also needing to locate your vehicle. So now I don't need to drive (or call a cab) and I take short leisurely climate controlled shuttle ride to the terminal. Sounds good to me. Saves me time and money.

This is light years better than what we currently have. Everybody should stop complaining and be grateful.

[saxman66]

So when you step off the Orange line at the "station" between terminals A & B, and your flight takes off from Terminal C, D, E or the southern most gates at A or B, you'll still be riding a bus like at Love Field :uhoh: Then, on your return flight, we can all enjoy the bus ride to the northern most part of Terminal A after we pick up our luggage from the baggage claim from Terminal D. :rolleyes:

Its a lot better then making everyone take a bus to Grapevine. And no, if you are taking AA and need to check bags, you will not need to take a shuttle, since AA takes up 4 terminals. If you are taking the other airlines you won't need to take the shuttle as long as you aren't checking bags. If you're the poor sole that has to take a shuttle, then a 5 or 10 minute ride then a slow bus ride outside the airport. The last thing DFW needs is more shuttle buses.

[msutton]

Riding a bus for 5 minutes to get to the train is no problem as long as the buses run frequently (on such a short route, they would), especially when they pick you up and drop you off in convenient locations. Taking a bus all the way outside of the airport? adding 5-10 minutes to the trip? That's a different story.

[mjblazin]

Let's remember the cost benefit for the traveler: $2-3 for a train ride ($0 incremental if you have a pass) vs. 2 x $40+ cab vs. $14+/day parking. I don't expect perfection for my $3. As long as the process is consistent across the airport operating hours and does not have a lot of wasted time as with the existing process, it's a bargain. At this point riding an airplane is not much different than riding a bus. In fact, I'm often more comfortable riding a DART bus than I am in a resized plane.

[bjackson85]

This is my first post in the Dallas Forum. I'm a civil engineer in Southern CA, and am a native of Fort Worth (though I rarely get back). I work on transportation designs for transit terminals (currently working on the CA High Speed Rail lines and various transit terminals in Europe). I don't understand why an area as large as DFW would want to alter the plans for a transit terminal at DFW Airport, and move it away from the airport. The point of passenger rail is to connect population centers and areas of intense use together (i.e. business/downtown centers, sporting facilities, parks/gateways, air/sea ports.) Why on earth DART would now consider moving the DFW connection is beyond my level of thinking. No offense to people in DFW, but for years we've joked about the inadequacies of DART. The original lines have very few stops of interest to most Dallasites. Besides downtown, Mockingbird Station, and maybe a few others, the lines stop at areas in town that make it so people have to "park and ride." What's the point of driving to a certain location to then get on the rail....kind of defeats the purpose. Finally the new lines will include civic locations such as Fair Park. Anyway, we heard in our office that the Love Field stop was already moved which caused us to laugh, and now we are hearing this about DFW. I hope DART and the city of Dallas gets their act together.

[electricron]

This is my first post in the Dallas Forum. I'm a civil engineer in Southern CA, and am a native of Fort Worth (though I rarely get back). I work on transportation designs for transit terminals (currently working on the CA High Speed Rail lines and various transit terminals in Europe). I don't understand why an area as large as DFW would want to alter the plans for a transit terminal at DFW Airport, and move it away from the airport. The point of passenger rail is to connect population centers and areas of intense use together (i.e. business/downtown centers, sporting facilities, parks/gateways, air/sea ports.) Why on earth DART would now consider moving the DFW connection is beyond my level of thinking. No offense to people in DFW, but for years we've joked about the inadequacies of DART. The original lines have very few stops of interest to most Dallasites. Besides downtown, Mockingbird Station, and maybe a few others, the lines stop at areas in town that make it so people have to "park and ride." What's the point of driving to a certain location to then get on the rail....kind of defeats the purpose. Finally the new lines will include civic locations such as Fair Park. Anyway, we heard in our office that the Love Field stop was already moved which caused us to laugh, and now we are hearing this about DFW. I hope DART and the city of Dallas gets their act together.

It wasn't DART that wanted to take take another look where the Orange Line terminated, it was NCTCOG.
I can understand why everyone wanted to take a second look. Dallas isn't like most other cities, Fort Worth lies 30 miles away, with DFW Airport located right smack in the middle. Most cities terminate train lines at their airports.
The question being debated was, do both city's transit agencies terminated their respected trains at DFW, or do you plan to run trains between the two cities? That answer was worth taking the time to look at once more. When the train lines are built, I'll bet today there will be three times more riders traveling past DFW Airport than what gets off.

At Love Field, DART wanted to build the train station under its terminal. It was the FTA that nixed it, because the tunnel would cost too much. When the FTA is putting up half the costs, you do tend to listen to them.

I disagree with your assessment of the Red & Blue lines too. In Oak Cliff, the Red Line connected to the zoo, the Blue Line connected to the VA hospital, and eventually to North Texas University at Dallas. The Red Line also connects to North Park Mall, Presbyterian Hospital, Texas Instruments, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, and the Telecom Corridor. I'll admit the Blue Line doesn't go to any specific draw except White Rock Lake. But you have to have residential train stations too. Never-the-less, the biggest draw for the Red & Blue Lines is downtown Dallas. Today, 40% of the people commuting to downtown Dallas take transit, and that's before the Green & Orange Lines open. Imagine what that percentage will be after they open?
The Green & Orange Lines will also have residential train stations, and some more train stations with nearby draws. Just about every activity center one will want to go within DART's member cities will be accessible by train, except the Galleria area. If DART succeeds with the Cotton Belt PPP, DMU trains will be running within one mile of the Galleria. The DART 2030 plan only proposes two more new light rail lines, (1) west towards Grand Prairie and (2) east towards Mesquite. If the west line went to Lone Star Park, we could add another draw, otherwise both new rail lines would have mostly residential train stations.

The NCTCOG is looking at extending all DART light rail lines with commuter rail lines about halfway into neighboring counties of Dallas. Also NCTCOG is looking at building commuter rail in and around Fort Worth. What happens in Tarrant County really isn't of much interest to DART.

[palchik]

This is my first post in the Dallas Forum. I'm a civil engineer in Southern CA, and am a native of Fort Worth (though I rarely get back). I work on transportation designs for transit terminals (currently working on the CA High Speed Rail lines and various transit terminals in Europe). I don't understand why an area as large as DFW would want to alter the plans for a transit terminal at DFW Airport, and move it away from the airport. The point of passenger rail is to connect population centers and areas of intense use together (i.e. business/downtown centers, sporting facilities, parks/gateways, air/sea ports.) Why on earth DART would now consider moving the DFW connection is beyond my level of thinking. No offense to people in DFW, but for years we've joked about the inadequacies of DART. The original lines have very few stops of interest to most Dallasites. Besides downtown, Mockingbird Station, and maybe a few others, the lines stop at areas in town that make it so people have to "park and ride." What's the point of driving to a certain location to then get on the rail....kind of defeats the purpose. Finally the new lines will include civic locations such as Fair Park. Anyway, we heard in our office that the Love Field stop was already moved which caused us to laugh, and now we are hearing this about DFW. I hope DART and the city of Dallas gets their act together.

Welcome to the forum bjackson, but you've been away from Texas too long. You've forgotten the environment that DART has to work with. The reason that DART serves so few "stops of interest" as you say is because there are so few points of interest to serve. More specifically, there are few areas with a high concentration of points of interest. Instead the points of interest are spread out all over the place. This is known as sprawl.

Sprawl makes the provision of effective public transportation very very difficult, and you sort have to work backwards. Rather than laying transit where the activity nodes are, you lay transit where you can, and hope that the transit oriented development follows. In many cases, this has worked out, but in others we are still anxiously awaiting the TOD.

Sprawl is an ailment that afflicts our entire region, including DFW Airport. The airport is bigger than the island on Manhattan for god's sake! Rather than having a single centralized ticketing and baggage claim area that would make transit service a breeze (like in Atlanta, and soon Seattle and Denver), DFW was designed with multiple ticket counters and baggage claims per terminal (not to mention multiple terminals) that make the design of a sensible transit connection almost impossible. But that was the wave of the future in the early 1970s when DFW was built. The closer you could get drivers to their gate, the better. That was a world without security checks, or sprawl-induced traffic jams. The world has changed a lot since then, and we are now struggling to adapt a 21st century transit system to a mid-20th century land use pattern. The same thing happened in the mid-20th century, when cars were the must-have thing, and the land-use was still designed for streetcars. The solution then was simply to tear cities apart block by block and build parking lots. We'll see how our new culture clash turns out...

[slfunk]

For a secure check-in at the rail station, there would need to be a way to get all checked bags to the appropriate terminal and plane in time for take-off. Even if that could be done, how would you deal with arriving flights? Lets say a tourist from Japan decides to visit Dallas. Would they have to be asked in advance, as they check their bags in Tokyo, if they want to check them all the way through to the DART station??? Otherwise, they would land and their bags would come out at the regular baggage claim in the non-secure side of whatever terminal they arrive at. At that point they would no longer have access to the people-mover on the secure side.

Two airports immediately come to mind that have similar type systems in place. Newark and Atlanta's. For Newark's instance if you do not have any luggage to check in Continental has check ins at Penn Station in Mahattan, or if you do have luggage you can check in your luggage immediately getting of the commuter train before jumping onto their airport train. At Atlanta, once you get off the MARTA Delta and some other airlines have kiosks where you can check-in your luggage before entering the terminal much like curbside check-in. At Atlanta you must go through security before boarding its people mover. In both cases if you want to take advantage of the service you must add a little more time upon arrival. In other words if you arrive 30 mins prior, good luck. If you arrive an hour early you should be good to go.

For arrivals, Atlanta's system works b/c all passengers from every terminal must go to the same baggage claim area (believe AA is an exception). Which is actually one of the critiques I have of Atlanta. Whereas at DFW you dont have to walk that far once getting off the plane to get to your designated baggage claim area. Newark's works b/c its tram access and baggage claim is outside the secure area. At DFW we just have to have something a little bit different or in otherwords something to complete the missing link b/c our tram is inside the secured area.

So for DFW what I am thinking is a way to get around the issue for a traveler picking up their luggage before heading to the DART station would be to implement a revival of AA's tram and expand it OR a less expensive solution is to have a shuttle bus outside much like the shuttles used to take you to rental cars or remote parking.

So when someone is coming into the airport when time is typically a little more crunched you have the option to immediately check yourself in and your bags and hop on the tram. When leaving the airport and if you have luggage you would have to use the shuttle. If you don't have luggage you could just hop on the tram and head to the station. For the traveler with checked luggage it seems the same as picking up a car from remote parking or a rental, and for the one with just a carry-on there is one less step to get to the rail station.

[tamtagon]

Maybe the airport should consolidate all baggage claim into one terminal. Nothing changes for departing passengers; each terminal retains the current check-in & drop-off situation with the "drive up" gate access. Arriving passengers with checked baggage, however, all go to the centralized baggage claim area which is of course anchored by the DART Train Station and the airport's people mover. I think this could help vehicular traffic at the airport, too, because it would create a more fluid traffic flow without as much crossing between people trying to get to the terminal and people trying to leave the terminal.

So, with that what-if, is it cost effective to retool the mechanism that currently transports arriving baggage to a 'local' claim area into a system that moves all bags to one place?

[NThomas]

Maybe the airport should consolidate all baggage claim into one terminal. Nothing changes for departing passengers; each terminal retains the current check-in & drop-off situation with the "drive up" gate access. Arriving passengers with checked baggage, however, all go to the centralized baggage claim area which is of course anchored by the DART Train Station and the airport's people mover. I think this could help vehicular traffic at the airport, too, because it would create a more fluid traffic flow without as much crossing between people trying to get to the terminal and people trying to leave the terminal.

So, with that what-if, is it cost effective to retool the mechanism that currently transports arriving baggage to a 'local' claim area into a system that moves all bags to one place?
It'd work for passengers that took the train to DFW but not those who drove in. If I drove and parked at D, and the consolidated baggage claim was at A, I'd have to take a shuttle back to D after getting my bag to get to my car.

[slfunk]

I far more prefer the way it is now then having a centralized baggage claim area like Atlanta. Atlanta basically has one access point to exit and enter. It creates a lot of havoc and congestion, plus you have to travel a long way depending on what terminal you arrive in to get to baggage claim. The thing that is good about DFW is you get off the plain and you may have to walk two or three gates to exit and get to your baggage claim, but its pretty quick and easy and your shuttles pick you up right outside the door whether its your hotel, car rental or remote parking shuttle.

[mjblazin]

So the choice is either completely rebuild one of the world's largest airports or hire some people at minimum wage to drive a bus in a loop between the train stop and nearest terminal. You don't need to be a Fields Prize winner to do that calculation.

[electricron]

Considering they already have drivers driving buses to all the terminals, even less wisdom is needed.

[orthr]

why doesn't dart just have a line that goes like this? I know that it would cost a ton of money and dart would have to change the whole orange line plan, but wouldn't it be easier and wouldn't it make everybody happy? you could have the rail branch off of the Trinity railway.

(purple = cotton belt)
(blue = the trinity railway)
(orange = orange line)

[electricron]

A north-south light rail line through DFW would be almost 10 miles long, with train stations at either where the line would terminate. The only new TOD possible being at the train station on the north end of the airport. The Centre Port station already exists on the southern end on the TRE line. At $50-$60 Million per mile, we've spent a half billion dollars building a light rail line to nowhere. The existing plan provides service to the Orange Line and to the future TOD at the northern station, and we would have saved a half billion dollars. I can think of many more 10 mile light rail corridors we could spend that half billion dollars on.

As planned, the last light rail segment from Beltline Road to DFW Terminal A will cost over $300 Million. Whether the last light rail segment goes to DFW Terminal A or to the train station with a potential TOD on the Cotton Belt, DART will have to spend at least that same $300 Million.

It'll be far cheaper, at $10-$20 million per mile, to build a commuter line all the way through DFW Airport to connect the two commuter line corridors.

[NThomas]

...It'll be far cheaper, at $10-$20 million per mile, to build a commuter line all the way through DFW Airport to connect the two commuter line corridors.
It'll be even cheaperer tohave shuttles too ;)

[PuddinHead]

Maybe the airport should consolidate all baggage claim into one terminal. Nothing changes for departing passengers; each terminal retains the current check-in & drop-off situation with the "drive up" gate access. Arriving passengers with checked baggage, however, all go to the centralized baggage claim area which is of course anchored by the DART Train Station and the airport's people mover. I think this could help vehicular traffic at the airport, too, because it would create a more fluid traffic flow without as much crossing between people trying to get to the terminal and people trying to leave the terminal.

So, with that what-if, is it cost effective to retool the mechanism that currently transports arriving baggage to a 'local' claim area into a system that moves all bags to one place?


Consolidating baggage service into one terminal would actually cost more and take longer to implement than just building a light rail access to the terminals.Time and distance for baggage service is all ready an issue for airports the size of DFW why make it worse.



It'll be even cheaperer tohave shuttles too ;)

Amazing! Wonder if the same logic is good for Love Field light rail access too?

[electricron]

Wonder if the same logic is good for Love Field light rail access too?

Love Field only has one terminal and twenty gates. Today, DFW has five terminals and easily over a hundred gates.
What works at one airport won't work at another because they are different.

[NThomas]

...Amazing! Wonder if the same logic is good for Love Field light rail access too?
I never said it was good...

[PuddinHead]

Love Field only has one terminal and twenty gates. Today, DFW has five terminals and easily over a hundred gates.
What works at one airport won't work at another because they are different.


Bus service for rail connection would work for both airports.

[tamtagon]

The concept of a SW2NE-Cotton Belt-Orange Line station in Grapevine is becoming more valuable in my mind. If done "right," airport shuttle buses could end up being more convenient that a DART station inside an airport terminal. Since a large portion if not majority of people using a train to get to the airport will be going to work instead of getting on an airplane, the shuttles could be much more convenient from the Grapevine station.

[Mballar]

^ Whether it's on DFW Airport property at a terminal, or at some other location, the station in question is going to serve as a transfer point for SW2NE riders, Cotton Belt and Orange Line riders alike. In other words, every rider will have to get off the train that brought them to the station and transfer to another train (or bus to catch a plane) in order to get to his final destination. The station should be positioned to give air travelers the least inconvenient transfer. Unless there is a plan to run DART Orange Line, Cotton Belt, and Ft. Worth T trains on any of the others' tracks, train travelers will have to transfer anyway because those respective lines will have to terminate at this proposed station, anyway.

[downtownguy25]

I do not understand all this talk about luggage and what not. The train should cater to those that are going to use it the most. Business travelers. Most of which do not check luggage and want something quick and do not want to deal with long lines. People with lots of luggage and or kids are more likely to take a cab or rent a car.

[Hannibal Lecter]

The people who will use it the most will be airport area employees.

Most business travelers are on an expense account, thus are far more interested in convenience and time than cost. Arriving travelers will continue to take taxis or rent a car. Local residents will drive and let their company pay for terminal parking.

[electricron]

The people who will use it the most will be airport area employees.

Most business travelers are on an expense account, thus are far more interested in convenience and time than cost. Arriving travelers will continue to take taxis or rent a car. Local residents will drive and let their company pay for terminal parking.

I'll agree, most not all. That's why it is important to go directly to at least one terminal.

As I wrote before, you should be able to transfer at the DFW terminal, when all three lines get built, if that's what you wish to do. Orange Line, SW2NE, or Cotton Belt east. The idea anyone would take 2 hours by taking a local train from Plano to southwest Fort Worth seems unlikely. An express, doing it within an hour by skipping DFW Airport and half the proposed train stations seems more likely.

[MarkL2023]

http://irvingblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/06/orange-line-will-directly-tie.html


Orange Line will directly tie in to DFW
Brandon Formby/Reporter

The DART board unanimously agreed tonight to directly tie the planned
light rail Orange Line into Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport's
A Terminal. The approved plan will also later add to the Orange Line a
smaller loop that connects to the planned Cotton Belt line before
heading back into the airport.

The vote puts to rest a recent dust-up over the Orange Line's last
leg. Irving residents, city officials and business leaders were
angered this year when DART said it was exploring other options for
the line. Some of those would have eliminated a direct connection to
the airport. Irving leaders have long relied on such an alignment as
they put together what is likely the nation's largest collection of
planned transit-oriented development projects. Tonight's vote was
crucial to meeting a goal of finishing the Orange Line by December 2013.

[TheMapman]

Finally, some common sense prevails.

[JCL]

I don't fault them for at least considering an alternative... it may not have been the most appropriate thing, but popping your head up and looking around once in a while isn't a bad thing... they should have considered this months ago though and not back everyone up against a wall - emotions flaring...

[electricron]

I don't fault them for at least considering an alternative... it may not have been the most appropriate thing, but popping your head up and looking around once in a while isn't a bad thing... they should have considered this months ago though and not back everyone up against a wall - emotions flaring...

I don't fault them either. Until someone is committed to construction plans, plans always change. Sometimes plans are changed after construction starts. A truth many forget, the only thing that is constant in this universe is change.
I don't think it is possible to have considered and finalized the plans months ago. Someone would have proposed another change since.

[lakewoodhobo]

Also in today's DMN: DART finalizes the Orange Line route, and Downtown Dallas gets a direct connection to DFW.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/062409dnmetorangeline.3e35a9b.html

[JCL]

I don't think it is possible to have considered and finalized the plans months ago. Someone would have proposed another change since.

Yes, but the general concept could have come up theoretically years ago... at least when the sw2ne plans hit the books and cotton belt east was on the dart 2030 plan...

[Double Wide]

Also in today's DMN: DART finalizes the Orange Line route, and Downtown Dallas gets a direct connection to DFW.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/062409dnmetorangeline.3e35a9b.html

Finally! Will Love and DFW be connected?

And why does the Orange line get a fancy logo?

http://www.dart.org/images/newsroom/jpgs/orangelinesymbol.jpg

[Mballar]

Will Love and DFW be connected?
Yes!

[JCL]

So now I'll be curious to see if the 'Esters' station is still on the plans, or if it will just be a straight shot from beltline to A/B.

http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/NWIrvingPublicMeeting20mar07.pdf

Page 4

[electricron]

Finally! Will Love and DFW be connected?

And why does the Orange line get a fancy logo?

http://www.dart.org/images/factsheet/orangelinesymbol.gif


Because the Blue line to Rowlett got a new fancy logo too.

http://www.dart.org/images/newsroom/thumbnails/bluelinetorowlett.gif

[NThomas]

Because the Blue line to Rowlett got a new fancy logo too.

http://www.dart.org/images/newsroom/thumbnails/bluelinetorowlett.gif
"The next wave..." Ha! Classic.

[RobertB]

(Copied from the other Orange Line thread (http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/showthread.php?t=10017), because the discussion likely belongs here.)

Check THIS out!

http://forum.dallasmetropolis.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=542

That's from the brand-new "Irving 3 Newsletter Issue 1 - Fall 2009" .pdf, available here (http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangeline.asp#dfw). In case it's not immediately obvious from the picture (or if you're reading this in the future), with emphasis added by me:

The Irving-3 DFW Extension Project is currently under design and will consist of two phases.

Phase I follows SH114, crosses Airfield Drive and then hooks into Terminal A (see the map of the Orange Line extension). This route offers a direct ride from Dallas through Irving/Las Colinas to the airport.

Phase II will create an extended loop up to the North Station area near the Cotton Belt rail corridor. The alignment will turn south into Terminal A. The second phase will connect commuter rail along the Cotton Belt rail corridor to the DART LRT system.

The newsletter goes on to say:

At the same time DART is developing the Irving-3 extension, the T is moving forward on the Southwest-to-Northeast Rail Corridor (SW2NE) project. SW2NE will utilize the DART-owned Cotton Belt rail corridor and is expected to provide commuter rail service to Terminal B by 2013. The terminal stations will connect light rail and commuter rail passengers and DFW Airport employees to the Terminal Link and SkyLink systems.

The North Station area will be a new transportation hub for the region creating an opportunity for new development on airport property. With connections to DFW Airport and the future Cotton Belt rail corridor, transit riders will have even greater access to jobs and places of interest throughout the metroplex.
Wow. Wow!

[electricron]

Did everyone study that proposal for Phase II Orange line extension carefully?

Yes, it allows passengers on the Cotton Belt commuter trains to transfer to the Orange light rail line. But those passengers actually wanting to go to DFW from Dallas and Collin counties are going to have to transfer too. The only direct, non-transfer commuter trains to DFW are coming from Fort Worth.

What percentage of commuter trains from Fort Worth take the branch line to DFW, or continue to stay on the Cotton Belt and go to Plano?

I don't like what could happen at all......

[RobertB]

Public meeting coming up next Tuesday, Oct 20, 6:30pm. Meeting announcement and link to a (non-technical) PDF map of the project available here: DART Orange Line Public Scoping Meeting for Orange Line Irving 3 - DFW Airport Extension (http://www.dart.org/meetings/publicmeetingsrss.asp?ID=394).

The PDF also includes a cute little orange cone with glasses and a construction hat with the name "Mr. Orange" -- apparently the mascot of the new project.

[NTexUnited]

So when phase II opens, will phase I be closed?

This is ridiculous! I don't want to go through Grapevine to get to DFW!

[RobertB]

So when phase II opens, will phase I be closed?

This is ridiculous! I don't want to go through Grapevine to get to DFW!
Don't panic -- you or electricron.

For one thing, this is a very preliminary plan. The design and public comment phases are still in progress. The best way to make your concerns known is to go to the meeting on Tuesday (wish I could!).

But I don't think either of y'all have anything to be worried about.

electricron is concerned that the diagram doesn't show the commuter rail line from Collin County turning toward DFW. There's plenty of room out there, though, to put a wye where the purple line bumps into the blue line.

NTexUnited's concerns will probably be addressed by this snippet from the "Notice of Intent for the DART Irving-3 LRT Extension to DFW Airport" on the Orange Line page:

The DFW Extension Project is a Build Alternative consisting of a two independent projects. Phase I of Irving-3 would be built in the near term and ready for revenue service by 2013. Phase II of Irving-3 will also be put forth in this EA for consideration but would be built in the later term, the specific date of which is dependent on several factors related to actions being undertaken or pursued by the Fort Worth Transportation Authority (the T) and DART.

Phase I would provide direct LRT service to DFW Airport A by connecting to the existing LRT system within the DART service area. Phase I would connect to the Orange Line (currently under construction) to DFW Terminal A. Phase I would operate on frequent headway similar to the existing DART LRT system. Phase II of the LRT alternative would extend to intercept passengers on future commuter rail service along the Cotton Belt before turning into Terminal A. Trains would operate along this route to meet the lower frequency commuter rail train on the Cotton Belt. Once both phases are in operation, the concept is that use of the two lines would alternate. Selected Orange Line trains would use the Phase II alignment in order to provide service that matches the commuter rail line service levels. All other Orange line trains would use the Phase I alignment to approach DFW airport.
So, DART isn't planning to abandon several miles of Phase I track when Phase II is built. They'll run an occasional Orange Line train out to meet the commuter line, but the bulk of the trips will go directly to DFW.

[Mballar]

So when phase II opens, will phase I be closed?

This is ridiculous! I don't want to go through Grapevine to get to DFW!
You won't have to. I think the plan is to have every other train, or probably every third train go through Grapevine, for those wanting to transfer to the future Cotton Belt Line. So, it shouldn't even become an issue until the Cotton Belt Line opens up. . . .and I don't see that happening before 2020.

[darkblood]

This is pretty much how I wanted the setup to be.

I wonder if they'll do with the cotton belt line what they'll do with the Orange line, where some trains will go to the airport and some trains will pass through to Ft Worth. Maybe it'll be like going to the fair where you look at the front of the train to see if it's going to DFW or to Ft. Worth. I think that'll be a good compromise.

[eirin]

So I guess they'll have "DFW Express" trains and ones that are "Grapevine" trains.

[PennStation]

I haven't noticed this (http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangelinedfwmeeting20oct09.pdf) posted yet. It's from DART's I-3 (DFW Airport) public presentation given 10/20/09.

There were two speakers at the meeting (Mayor of Coppell and Las Colinas CoC rep, I think) who favored moving the I-3 Phase II station (DART's future light rail station along the Cotton Belt line) from the City of Grapevine to the City of Coppell. The proposed Coppell station would still be on DFW Airport land. I guess Coppell's not a DART member city, but neither is Grapevine - and at least Coppell is in Dallas County, or so went their logic.

[RobertB]

I haven't noticed this (http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/orangelinedfwmeeting20oct09.pdf) posted yet. It's from DART's I-3 (DFW Airport) public presentation given 10/20/09.

There were two speakers at the meeting (Mayor of Coppell and Las Colinas CoC rep, I think) who favored moving the I-3 Phase II station (DART's future light rail station along the Cotton Belt line) from the City of Grapevine to the City of Coppell. The proposed Coppell station would still be on DFW Airport land. I guess Coppell's not a DART member city, but neither is Grapevine - and at least Coppell is in Dallas County, or so went their logic.
Coppell *was* a member city, though... they were a 1983 charter member, but pulled out (along with Flower Mound) in 1989. 20 years later, and they want a rail station? Well, I guess they've got 6 years' more revenue in the DART coffers than Mesquite...

... ok, that's just sour grapes. I figure whoever ponys up the dough, gets the station. Especially if Coppell puts their money where their mouth is *before* the Cotton Belt Line opens up... that might allow DART to skip "Phase 1" and just run the Orange Line to DFW via Coppell Station.

(Note that any option like that, short of full DART membership, depends on the Texas Legislature getting off its butt and passing a transit funding option bill.)