Orange Line - DFW Airport Rail Connection

[aygriffith]

DFW Airport could create a "SkyMall" like at Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport or Pittsburgh International Airport.

If they've done even the tiniest bit of research they'll realize what a poor choice that is. After 9/11 and due to the fact they built a mall near the airport (we don't have any malls near the airport... oh wait), Pittsburg's Skymall went from flying high to falling like a rock.

The shopping center at 183/161 is a dud, the idea of one closer to the terminals is even worse. Notice the little speak of it since the collapse of the economy and the glut of retail space coming back on the market from the perenial losers in retail that went out of business. They stand a much better chance with office space and another hotel. Freeport has been very succesful leasing its office space due to its almost direct connection to the airport. A on airport office complex with a large amount of sq ft would probably be a home run.

[NThomas]

If they've done even the tiniest bit of research they'll realize what a poor choice that is. After 9/11 and due to the fact they built a mall near the airport (we don't have any malls near the airport... oh wait), Pittsburg's Skymall went from flying high to falling like a rock.

The shopping center at 183/161 is a dud, the idea of one closer to the terminals is even worse. Notice the little speak of it since the collapse of the economy and the glut of retail space coming back on the market from the perenial losers in retail that went out of business. They stand a much better chance with office space and another hotel. Freeport has been very succesful leasing its office space due to its almost direct connection to the airport. A on airport office complex with a large amount of sq ft would probably be a home run.

But when the economy comes out of this trough and towards the next peak, a "small city" could be incorporated into the transit hub.

[dfwcre8tive]

I still think they should consider the original 13th station people mover, as in the attached original plan.

I've modified the map a bit for some ideas:

Have DART come in from the south and terminate at the 13th Station. Riders can transfer to commuter rail, Skylink or DFW terminal buses. This leaves DART able to be extended north or west if needed...

Cotton Belt trains from Fort Worth/Plano come from the north and also terminate at the 13th Station. Run some trains during commuting hours nonstop Plano-Fort Worth if transfer issues are too much of a problem...

TRE trains come up from the south and terminate at the 13th Station with a stop just south of the rental car facility (move the yellow line in the map to the east side of International Parkway)...

THEN in the future...

Where the DART line and TRE line meet in the south, construct the high speed rail terminal north of the Rental Car Center. Build a DART station and commuter rail station and connect the rental car facility with a pedestrian bridge. The Fort Worth/Plano lines now terminate here and the high speed rail line goes south beside the TRE line to Dallas or Fort Worth.

Think something like this is possible?

http://img527.imageshack.us/img527/2842/dfwrail.jpg

[NThomas]

Only reason I see why this couldn't be done, the SW2NE line and the Cotton Belt are now extended way too far south for a hub station. Plus arriving passengers, past security, are now forced to take a bus to the 13th station or the Hub. Keeping buses in any scenario IMO is a bad idea.

EDIT: Unless you added an APM outside security at the intersection of every terminal with one another that connected to the hub at near the car rental.

[dfwcre8tive]

Only reason I see why this couldn't be done, the SW2NE line and the Cotton Belt are now extended way too far south for a hub station. Plus arriving passengers, past security, are now forced to take a bus to the 13th station or the Hub. Keeping buses in any scenario IMO is a bad idea.

EDIT: Unless you added an APM outside security at the intersection of every terminal with one another that connected to the hub at near the car rental.

While I agree that an APM is an excellent idea, it's going to be pretty hard to convince DFW to add another people mover system: Skylink cost $884 million for 5 miles and 10 stations.

It's a difficult situation with a lot of options. Let's just hope they don't go with the least costly and least effective one.

[dfwcre8tive]

DART still seeking funds for Orange Line
5:13 PM Wed, May 13, 2009
Michael Lindenberger/Reporter
http://transportationblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2009/05/-darts-plan-to-run.html

DART's plan to run rail service to the D/FW International Airport by 2013 is about $120 million short of the required funding, the transit agency's board chairman said this afternoon.

The 14-mile Orange Line will be built in three phases, with the first phase scheduled to reach Las Colinas by late 2011. Construction on the first two phases has just begun. (And given the outcry 18 months ago when soaring costs appeared to almost derail the project, that's not a moment too soon.)

But it's the $350 million final phase that has drawn the most concern in recent weeks, as proposals to re-route the rail line north to connect with the proposed Cotton Belt suburban rail line have taken shape. That prospect has angered some Irving representatives who say they've been busy luring businesses to the area for years, based in part on the existing plan to extend the Orange Line directly from Irving to the airport. It would probably end at a location near Terminals A & B.

On Wednesday, DART chairman Randall Chrisman of Carrollton played down the likelihood that the board would change the route -- in part, he said, because doing so could add $150 million or more to the total bill. There is also a timing issue, he said, noting that a decision on the route is required by June in order to keep the project on schedule.

The additional costs would be on top of a deficit Chrisman and other DART officials said Wednesday already stands at $120 million. DART spokesman Morgan Lyons said DART has always known it would have to seek "partners" to pay the full cost of the Orange Line -- and currently is hoping the Regional Transportation Council will contribute something on the order of $60 million to $80 million to help bridge that gap. The balance, he said, could come from federal sources, though no such appropriations have been made as yet.

That funding gap may be manageable, as DART suggests, but it also could create an opportunity for entities intent on convincing DART to change the Orange Line route to connect to the as-of-now entirely hypothetical Cotton [Belt] line.

Staff at the North Central Texas Council of Governments recently investigated whether the Orange Line ought to be re-routed to connect to the Cotton Bowl, but stopped short of making a formal proposal that DART change the route, to the relief of Irving leaders.

But if DART is looking to RTC to make up half or more of a $120 million shortfall, that may give RTC director Michael Morris significant leverage. After all, if he can find the funds to cover much of the gap, plus pay the additional cost of the northern station, DART board may see few other options but to take the offer.

That's speculative, since RTC has not actually offered to do any such thing. But last week DART CEO Gary Thomas told me that the route possibilities are still in play. And what he didn't need to tell me is that when money is tight, just about anything will get a hearing.

[JCL]

I'm going to throw this out there: its a huge conspiracy. DFW is looking to develop the surrounding land right?

Agreed... probably this is the central issue that kicked off these talks in the first place. I'm wondering what's rattling around in the DFW execs heads: how much would the cost of a totally new 'trAAin ish type system' vs. future TOD revenues.

[JCL]

But if DART is looking to RTC to make up half or more of a $120 million shortfall, that may give RTC director Michael Morris significant leverage. After all, if he can find the funds to cover much of the gap, plus pay the additional cost of the northern station, DART board may see few other options but to take the offer.

That's speculative, since RTC has not actually offered to do any such thing. But last week DART CEO Gary Thomas told me that the route possibilities are still in play. And what he didn't need to tell me is that when money is tight, just about anything will get a hearing.

Wow... the plot thickens... RTC vs. DART/Irving... money talks! So, where is the DFW board in all of this? Are they just sitting by watching... I highly doubt it... I would think that where DFW throws it's weight will swing this thing one way or the other.

[JCL]

Staff at the North Central Texas Council of Governments recently investigated whether the Orange Line ought to be re-routed to connect to the Cotton (Bowl ) Belt (update: of course, thanks to the readers for calling me on this), but stopped short of making a formal proposal that DART change the route, to the relief of Irving leaders.

Yeah, first time I read that it threw me off

[tamtagon]

I really like the idea of the T-Train, Cotton Belt and Orange Line all meeting at a single station North of the airport. I think it would be even better if they meet at the Grapevine station with a massive mixed use developmental plan guided by the next incarnation of New Urbanist design.

But I think it would be a mistake if the Orange Line doesn't stop inside the airport first.

[mrowl]

But I think it would be a mistake if the Orange Line doesn't stop inside the airport first.

could that be the solution to getting passengers from a northside Grapevine station to the airport terminals?

Run the orange line to a station in between terminals A\B, then have the train back out towards Grapevine?

And have a dedicated train that runs from the Grapevine station to DFW every half hour?


I think I just spent $200 Million...

[NThomas]

While I agree that an APM is an excellent idea, it's going to be pretty hard to convince DFW to add another people mover system: Skylink cost $884 million for 5 miles and 10 stations.

It's a difficult situation with a lot of options. Let's just hope they don't go with the least costly and least effective one.
Amen!!!


Agreed... probably this is the central issue that kicked off these talks in the first place. I'm wondering what's rattling around in the DFW execs heads: how much would the cost of a totally new 'trAAin ish type system' vs. future TOD revenues.
Those would be one in the same though. (Unless they persuaded DART to have the Orange Line run to the "13th Station" after the north hub)


I really like the idea of the T-Train, Cotton Belt and Orange Line all meeting at a single station North of the airport. I think it would be even better if they meet at the Grapevine station with a massive mixed use developmental plan guided by the next incarnation of New Urbanist design.
But what about the TRE and the proposed HSR? Then there's two rail hubs, north (SW2NE, Orange Line, and Cotton Belt) and one in the south (TRE and HSR). That's where I think there should be a second APM outside security from a massive hub (or linking the seperate north and south hubs)

[JCL]

Those would be one in the same though. (Unless they persuaded DART to have the Orange Line run to the "13th Station" after the north hub)




In my mind they are different - you can't do a full on TOD type development at a terminal A/B station but you will be saving the cost of extending a people mover north... *or* is it worth the cost of that extension to milk revenues (for many years to come) from a (in my opinion what can become) a rather large TOD hub.

Also, I'm not so sure about the north hub *and* A/B station option either... if changing the route to go north to the exclusion of the A/B station is adding 100 plus million to the tag... what would be the cost of doing both? Plus, wouldn't you want the system to be equitable to all riders? Why give orange line riders a direct line to the airport (and I'm still not convinced that going to an A/B station is going "direct" to the airport either) while making those coming from Fort Worth or Plano transfer?

This is a very thorny and complex issue, and I'm not bold enough to think I have the answer (or smart enough)... but I do think that we should change our thinking from what benefits Dallas/Irving to what benefits the entire region/system as a whole.

[electricron]

I think it is a huge mistake to reroute Dart's Orange line light rail from DFW to any Grapevine Cotton Belt hub.

My major reason is the Orange line has financing and is being built, while the Cotton Belt lines are being planned for the future. Who knows when the Cotton Belt DMU line will ever get built, a few years after the Orange line, or a few decades later? Keep in mind, there's no financing available presently to plan, design, and build the entire Cotton Belt line today. There's no final agreement to finance its operation from every potential party either.

[dfwcre8tive]

Maybe it's better then to route the Orage Line using the southern or underground central alignment option to the 13th station or A/B Terminal station. Then if/when the Cotton Belt lines are built the Orange Line can be extended north to terminate at those lines in Grapevine. Bringing the Orange Line in from the north now (the recent prefered alignment) would make it difficult to adapt later.

[mrowl]

I think it is a huge mistake to reroute Dart's Orange line light rail from DFW to any Grapevine Cotton Belt hub.

My major reason is the Orange line has financing and is being built, while the Cotton Belt lines are being planned for the future. Who knows when the Cotton Belt DMU line will ever get built, a few years after the Orange line, or a few decades later? Keep in mind, there's no financing available presently to plan, design, and build the entire Cotton Belt line today. There's no final agreement to finance its operation from every potential party either.

But the T's line, will be there in Grapevine.

[PuddinHead]

The answer to this situation is that the airport has to designate its plans for the rail station at the airport. Then the transit systems can build lines to the airport station. The airport only has to make sure that the station design is forward looking enough to accomodate potential regional rail service and high speed rail.

[electricron]

The answer to this situation is that the airport has to designate its plans for the rail station at the airport. Then the transit systems can build lines to the airport station. The airport only has to make sure that the station design is forward looking enough to accomodate potential regional rail service and high speed rail.

DFW Airport already has designated where they want its major train station, the unbuilt but planned future 11th, 12th, and potential 13th station at the future location for a potential sixth terminal, which doesn't necessarily have to be exclusively aircraft minded. The potential future sixth terminal could be a mix rail and air terminal.

http://www.dfwairport.com/connect/images/SlTlMap275x430.gif

By being a mix air and rail terminal, checking in bags and using the existing Skylink shouldn't be a problem for any traveler. But a sixth air terminal isn't and shouldn't be needed for decades.

If the Texas T-bone HSR ever gets built, this is where its DFW terminal would be located. A station between Terminals A & B would only be a temporary solution for an unspecified amount of time. It needs to be good enough not turn passengers away while waiting for other rail and air projects to come together, but it doesn't need to be "Grand" either. Being "Grand" can wait for future projects.

Why mixing every possible transportation line in Grapevine as desirable is beyond my understanding. Light Rail should never go to a non-Dart member city. That wouldn't be fair to the taxpayers in member cities paying a fully penny to support both Dart's light rail and bus programs. Golly, Grapevine isn't even paying the T's full half penny tax, much less anything to Dart. If Dallas and Fort Worth goals are to make DFW the transit hub, that's where the train station hub should be, not in Grapevine.

[tamtagon]

Considering the potential of an 'airport city', there would be absolutely no reason for the airport to support re-routing the Orange line to a Cottonbelt-T-Train station away from the terminals, right?

[electricron]

Considering the potential of an 'airport city', there would be absolutely no reason for the airport to support re-routing the Orange line to a Cottonbelt-T-Train station away from the terminals, right?

Presently, DFW has plans developing the acres of DFW property south of the main terminals, near SH 183. It's likely DFW will likely wish to develope the lands near SH 121 near Grapevine in the future north of the main terminals, but there are no plans to do so in the works.

As for the potential Grapevine DFW TOD, a Park & Ride facility and TOD aren't necessarily mutually beneficial to one another. The T's SW2NE plans two train stations in Grapevine, downtown Grapevine without any additional parking and this Park & Ride station north of DFW. As the T's final train station with parking, it'll need lots of parking near the train station. Any TOD near this train station will push the parking further away from the station. The larger the TOD, the further away the parking will be.
If this Grapevine TOD ever gets built, does it really require a direct light rail line to downtown Dallas? It'll have T commuter rail service to downtown Fort Worth, it'll have Dart commuter rail service to Carrolton, Farmer's Branch, Addison, Richardson, Plano, and far north Dallas, with at least two possible transfer options into downtown Dallas using light rail.
Dart doesn't have the surplus financial resources in its 20 year plan to spend an additional $100 to $200 million to extend the Orange line to Grapevine. Neither do NCTCOG nor Grapevine. I'm not sure where Dart is going to find the financial resources to build a longer tunnel for the D2 line in downtown Dallas, which costs about the same $100 t0 $200 million more than the cheaper alternative. To expect Dart to find twice as much to do both is being more than slightly unrealistic.......

[Mballar]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2842/dfwrail.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dfwrail.jpg)
I say keep the Orange Line AND The T routed into the airport as it is currently planned. DART can rout the Cotton Belt Line into the Airport for transfer to other lines. I really like the model above. However, I would remove the station immediately north of the airport station in this example.

[Spjz]

An ideal situation would have all three lines interfacing directly with security so that passengers can immediately board the Sky Link. However, that seems to be more and more of a pipe dream. If they do end up creating a three line hub just north of the airport, then what ever link is used to transport people from the airport to the hub had better be efficient as hell. If a traveller is required to transfer trains, then board a bus, then ticket, then go through TSA, ridership will surely suffer.

[JCL]

Why mixing every possible transportation line in Grapevine as desirable is beyond my understanding. Light Rail should never go to a non-Dart member city. That wouldn't be fair to the taxpayers in member cities paying a fully penny to support both Dart's light rail and bus programs. Golly, Grapevine isn't even paying the T's full half penny tax, much less anything to Dart. If Dallas and Fort Worth goals are to make DFW the transit hub, that's where the train station hub should be, not in Grapevine.

You do know that putting a station A/B as currently drawn is technically in Grapevine too... So to follow the strict rule of not running light rail to non-member cities means that the orange line cannot terminate anywhere near the terminals... they would have to stop the line at the current belt line station and shuttle everyone from there. In reality they will have to run LRT outside the Irving city limits to make the end destination practical.

*edit* bah, I can't figure out how to embed an image:

http://www.grapevinecitylimits.com/grapevinecitylimits.htm

A 'north hub' is just as much in Grapevine as an A/B station (or any other station that would interface with the terminals).

[electricron]

Technically you be correct. It's also true DFW Airport is owned by the cities of Dallas and Fort Worth, not owned by the city of Grapevine.
Isn't it a shame Grapevine gets little property tax reveunues from DFW?

The citizens from both cities, Dallas and Fort Worth, desire DIRECT access to DFW Airport, not Grapevine! Dart's light rail route shouldn't go into Grapevine any further than necessary to reach the Airport. Since the Cotton Belt RR corridor bisects Grapevine, the cheapest and quickest corridor choice is following the RR ROW. Both the T and Dart DMUs will have to follow the Cotton Belt, but that doesn't mean Dart's light rail will.

And that's my point. The DMUs corridors of Rail North Texas aren't going to be financed by Dart's 1 cent sales tax, so Dart really doesn't care. None-the-less, none of the Rail North Texas funds will be used to support Dart's light rail corridors, so Grapevine has NO say what-so-ever where Dart's orange line goes.

[dfwcre8tive]

Last leg of DART Orange Line may be short $190 million
09:02 AM CDT on Thursday, May 21, 2009
By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News
bformby@dallasnews.com
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/DN-irvdart_21met.ART.East.Edition1.613a.html

DART board member John Danish said Wednesday that the funding gap for the last leg of Irving's Orange Line could reach as high as $190 million.

Traffic and transportation news
He said previous reports of a $120 million shortfall were at the low end of estimates.

"We'll continue to find ways to close that gap," he said after mentioning that a new state law enacted Tuesday allows DART to expand its bonding capacity.

Next month, the DART board is expected to finalize how the Orange Line will tie into Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport. The 14-mile line is planned to run from Bachman Lake, past the University of Dallas, through Las Colinas and on to airport land.

...

[JCL]

so Grapevine has NO say what-so-ever where Dart's orange line goes.

Agreed... and I understand the point about non-member cities benefiting from taxes paid by member cities and the fairness of it... again I don't understand the complete ramifications of it but perhaps a broader regional transit authority would be better so we wouldn't have this fiefdom mentality and can be free to do what would be best for *everyone*...

Or instead of a big authority... it has been shown that T and DART can cooperate to achieve a bigger goal (TRE)... only through cooperation can we have one big (useful) system that treats DFW as an area instead of two separate cities.

[JCL]

The 14-mile line is planned to run from Bachman Lake, past the University of Dallas, through Las Colinas and on to airport land.

...

Just to note... a north transit center would be on 'airport land' as well...

[JCL]

At the Friday Cotton Belt meeting I heard a curious comment:

Despite what's being reported in the news, all agencies are on the same page.

That and other comments make it sound like the A/B solution will probably happen, but the final decision rests with the DART board in June.

Since Irving is making a lot of noise about it, that squeaky wheel will get greased however Dart does have an interest in the cotton belt and cities such as Richardson support the 'Option 5' (north transit center)... I couldn't find anything online about an official option 5, but they did state that the difference between that and an A/B station would only be a 6 minute headway with no additional transfers.

So who knows. Plus it's their intention to accelerate the airport to Wylie segment of the cotton belt by 20 years, possibly opening the whole thing at once (hulen to the red line (or maybe Wylie))...

[electricron]

Plus it's their intention to accelerate the airport to Wylie segment of the cotton belt by 20 years, possibly opening the whole thing at once (hulen to the red line (or maybe Wylie))...

I've heard lots of talk about accelerating the Cotton Belt by 15 to 20 years, I haven't heard which private partners they expect to invest in it? And it will need private partners - only because there isn't any public partners with the finances to do so.

Let's review the Cotton Belt finances......
Dart has no money available until 2027.
The T has money from Ft. Worth and Grapevine, enough to finance 50% of what's needed just in Tarrant County. The T hopes for Federal "New Starts" funds, but have heard nothing from the Feds yet.
No non transit member city in Tarrant, Collin, or Dallas County along the RR coridor have commited to join the T or DART.
Therefore, the entire Cotton Belt corridor has approximately 25%, if not less, of the total required funds. Where does DART expect to find the remaining 75%?

The good news is that a RFI is out. It'll be interesting to see what private proposals will be submitted by late June.

[electricron]

Recent Dart discussion over the Orange Line's I-3 segment.
http://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/052609Planning.pdf
Vice-Chair Enoch summarized the situation as he understood it: 1-3 adds three miles of light rail at $60M a mile and it subtracts three miles of commuter rail at $20-25M a mile. He asked if DART paid this extraordinary amount of money to "make it happen" whether anyone knew if there was a corresponding benefit that DART would realize from the T or COG, such as a sharing of additional costs? Vice-Chair Enoch asked if sharing additional costs or DART receiving corresponding benefits were things that the T did not want to see happen? Mr. Hoppie replied that Vice-Chair Enoch had asked two good questions but he did not have the answers to either.

Mr. Danish stated that DART stands on the threshold of entering the airport at the end of 2013 (specifically December 31, 2013) and commented that Mr. Hoppie's presentation seemed fraught with a horizon full of delays. Mr. Danish stated that the window of opportunity that will allow DART to lay out its plans to achieve entrance to the Airport via Terminals A and B will close on June 30, 2009. Mr. Danish referred to information contained in Mr. Hoppie's briefing suggesting that deltas ranging from $150-200M now exist and he dares to say that on June 30,2009, (when the window of opportunity closes) no one is going to escrow those funds into a bank account for safe keeping until the funds are needed.

Mr. Chrisman said that it is incumbent upon DART to spend its available funds wisely to get where DART needs to go. Given that statement, Mr. Chrisman added that no matter which way 1-3 goes (implied: which entrance route to DFW is decided) it was important to secure a route that will, someday, connect to the Cotton Belt. He continued that he realized the potential cost to secure the route was an additional $180-190M and no one, including DART, has that amount to contribute. Mr. Chrisman said as a result of that reality, if the money does not materialize the AlB route becomes very probable. Given this, he said, he asked for special attention to be devoted to securing right-of-way routes for a future connection to the Cotton Belt while negotiations are underway.

Those comments are confusing. Is the alternate alignment Chrisman mentions Dart's southern entrance, or via commuter rail's northern entrance?

If the Dart line enters DFW's terminal area via the south, it could exit towards the north all the way into Grapevine, without adding much travel time between DFW and Dallas CBD.

It's apparent that the alternate Orange Line I-3 segment in recent discussions eliminates commuter/regional rail entering DFW, replacing it with light rail. It's also apparent the preferred choice decision is to be made by late June.

[NThomas]

Recent Dart discussion over the Orange Line's I-3 segment.
http://www.dart.org/about/board/boardagendas/052609Planning.pdf
Vice-Chair Enoch summarized the situation as he understood it: 1-3 adds three miles of light rail at $60M a mile and it subtracts three miles of commuter rail at $20-25M a mile. He asked if DART paid this extraordinary amount of money to "make it happen" whether anyone knew if there was a corresponding benefit that DART would realize from the T or COG, such as a sharing of additional costs? Vice-Chair Enoch asked if sharing additional costs or DART receiving corresponding benefits were things that the T did not want to see happen? Mr. Hoppie replied that Vice-Chair Enoch had asked two good questions but he did not have the answers to either.

Mr. Danish stated that DART stands on the threshold of entering the airport at the end of 2013 (specifically December 31, 2013) and commented that Mr. Hoppie's presentation seemed fraught with a horizon full of delays. Mr. Danish stated that the window of opportunity that will allow DART to lay out its plans to achieve entrance to the Airport via Terminals A and B will close on June 30, 2009. Mr. Danish referred to information contained in Mr. Hoppie's briefing suggesting that deltas ranging from $150-200M now exist and he dares to say that on June 30,2009, (when the window of opportunity closes) no one is going to escrow those funds into a bank account for safe keeping until the funds are needed.

Mr. Chrisman said that it is incumbent upon DART to spend its available funds wisely to get where DART needs to go. Given that statement, Mr. Chrisman added that no matter which way 1-3 goes (implied: which entrance route to DFW is decided) it was important to secure a route that will, someday, connect to the Cotton Belt. He continued that he realized the potential cost to secure the route was an additional $180-190M and no one, including DART, has that amount to contribute. Mr. Chrisman said as a result of that reality, if the money does not materialize the AlB route becomes very probable. Given this, he said, he asked for special attention to be devoted to securing right-of-way routes for a future connection to the Cotton Belt while negotiations are underway.

Those comments are confusing. Is the alternate alignment Chrisman mentions Dart's southern entrance, or via commuter rail's northern entrance?

If the Dart line enters DFW's terminal area via the south, it could exit towards the north all the way into Grapevine, without adding much travel time between DFW and Dallas CBD.

It's apparent that the alternate Orange Line I-3 segment in recent discussions eliminates commuter/regional rail entering DFW, replacing it with light rail. It's also apparent the preferred choice decision is to be made by late June.

You wouldn't happen to have a link of a map of the southern entrance proposal?

[electricron]

You wouldn't happen to have a link of a map of the southern entrance proposal?

Try checking out page 8 of this Dart's Orange Line pdf from 2005
http://www.dart.org/about/expansion/NWScopingStationLocation62905.pdf

[JCL]

I don't understand why all this came up in the 11th hour... for years the plans have been for the A/B station, now rush rush rush to come up with this new proposal that may cause delays? Why didn't they bring this up 3 years ago to allow plenty of time to work all the issues through?

[JCL]

Mr. Noah continued that the Committee was just informed that the agency is $1 00-200M short in respect to 1-3, but the opportunity exists to review private industry's input to offset the operational and capital costs of developing the Cotton Belt. Mr. Noah said, to his knowledge, the agency has not communicated its interest in, possibly, entering into an agreement with private industrylinvestor and called upon Mr. John Adler, Vice President of Procurement, to provide a status of the Request for Information (RFI) that had been discussed months ago.

Too bad we don't have enough time to really explore this thing... 6 months is barely enough time just to bring it up, now they want RFIs from private industry in 30 days?


Vice-Chair Enoch provided a perspective from the RTC (Regional Transportation Council) point of view, saying that there are a great many people and "players" in the game at this point. He said, obviously, the City of Irving and members on the DART Board represented the City of Dallas's interests but he was curious to discover more about the feelings of the other cities not represented on the DART Board (such as Fort Worth's T, the City of Dallas, Grapevine, Addison, Plano, Richardson, and many others).

Amen to that! I realize that those of us on the western side of the plex are late comers to this party - DART/Irving/Dallas have been paying into and studying this thing much longer... I just hope that we all have the right to revisit this thing in the future because of the looming deadlines.

[NThomas]

After seeing the southern entrance option in the I-3 section, it makes more sense then the other two. Not only does it connect to the 13th station but it also connects to future TOB near the car rental & the North transit center too without having to stop there 1st. Plus if the TRE is extended up to DFW, it's near the same ROW too.

[electricron]

After seeing the southern entrance option in the I-3 section, it makes more sense then the other two. Not only does it connect to the 13th station but it also connects to future TOB near the car rental & the North transit center too without having to stop there 1st. Plus if the TRE is extended up to DFW, it's near the same ROW too.

To add, if HSR every gets built to DFW, the most likely locale for its train station is on the southern edge of the airport. DFW is presently planning the development of its southern edge. Having light rail routed there seems like a great idea to me.

What Cotton Belt planners are striving for is much like what happen with the TRE. Keeping the commuter/regional trains routed straight along the existing corridor, without building a spur into the airport. TRE requires circulator buses for entry in DFW. Looks like that's what will happen with Cotton Belt too, initially.

Dart's Orange light rail line doesn't have to connect to the Cotton Belt initially, just plan and reserve a path/corriodor. It's my belief if you're going to eventually build a light rail corridor north from DFW to the Cotton Belt line, why not just go ahead and extend it south to the TRE line too?

[NThomas]

To add, if HSR every gets built to DFW, the most likely locale for its train station is on the southern edge of the airport. DFW is presently planning the development of its southern edge. Having light rail routed there seems like a great idea to me.

What Cotton Belt planners are striving for is much like what happen with the TRE. Keeping the commuter/regional trains routed straight along the existing corridor, without building a spur into the airport. TRE requires circulator buses for entry in DFW. Looks like that's what will happen with Cotton Belt too, initially.

Dart's Orange light rail line doesn't have to connect to the Cotton Belt initially, just plan and reserve a path/corriodor. It's my belief if you're going to eventually build a light rail corridor north from DFW to the Cotton Belt line, why not just go ahead and extend it south to the TRE line too?
Then its the same problem as stopping at a north transit center for the cotton belt. its another stop away from DFW

[JCL]

Dart's Orange light rail line doesn't have to connect to the Cotton Belt initially, just plan and reserve a path/corriodor. It's my belief if you're going to eventually build a light rail corridor north from DFW to the Cotton Belt line, why not just go ahead and extend it south to the TRE line too?

Along that thought, just keep extending that line on down into Arlington and pick up the ballpark/cowboy stadium/six flags.

[ksig121]

I don't understand why they don't build a "transit terminal" in the space reserved for the 6th terminal that is currently a parking lot. All of the airlines could have counters there that connect to the current baggage handling infrastructure, TSA coulsd screen there and passengers could use the existing skylink system to get to their gates (you would just have to build a station). You could also leave room for the future HSR if it goes to DFW. It could also be like a "front door" to the airport. You could have the option of going directly to your assigned terminal or you can drop off at this one.

I think I keep up with this thread pretty well. If someone has already mentioned this idea, I apologize.

[NThomas]

I don't understand why they don't build a "transit terminal" in the space reserved for the 6th terminal that is currently a parking lot. All of the airlines could have counters there that connect to the current baggage handling infrastructure, TSA coulsd screen there and passengers could use the existing skylink system to get to their gates (you would just have to build a station). You could also leave room for the future HSR if it goes to DFW. It could also be like a "front door" to the airport. You could have the option of going directly to your assigned terminal or you can drop off at this one.

I think I keep up with this thread pretty well. If someone has already mentioned this idea, I apologize.
That's a perfect plan for departures. But what about arrivals? To claim you baggage not only do you step outside of security, your now in say... Terminal A and to get back to the transit center "Future Terminal F" you've back to taking a bus. If there was a separate Skylink for outside security, then it wouldn't be a problem.

[ksig121]

That's a perfect plan for departures. But what about arrivals? To claim you baggage not only do you step outside of security, your now in say... Terminal A and to get back to the transit center "Future Terminal F" you've back to taking a bus. If there was a separate Skylink for outside security, then it wouldn't be a problem.

You know I thought about that as well. I would rather ride a bus after I have arrived as opposed to when I'm trying to depart. Most people will still be driving to the airport and those that are using the rail will most likely have a transfer to a bus or would have parked at a station.

This solves the problem of how to get departing passengers who are in a hurry through security and onto skylink as quickly as possible. If your flight terminates at DFW, then you would have to ride a bus to get to the rental car center or to your parking lot. Why not ride it to get to the train? To me it's the solution that makes the most sense with the amount of space and infrastructure available.

[downtownguy25]

That's a perfect plan for departures. But what about arrivals? To claim you baggage not only do you step outside of security, your now in say... Terminal A and to get back to the transit center "Future Terminal F" you've back to taking a bus. If there was a separate Skylink for outside security, then it wouldn't be a problem.

Who travels with check luggage anymore. Most people that travel often, aka business travelers, the ones who are going to use the train do not check luggage. People that will have alot of luggage or have children are less likely to want to take the train.

The only time I would think about checking luggage is on snowboarding trips, but have found it is just easier to ship my snowboard where ever I am going than to deal with the airline loosing it or not having enough room on the plane, etc.

[dfwcre8tive]

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2009-05-25-rail-lines-airport-city-center_N.htm?csp=34

By Roger Yu, USA TODAY
Riding the rails between downtown and the airport is becoming a reality for more U.S. travelers.

With their roadways jammed with cars and shuttles, a growing number of domestic airports are building or have plans for a rail link that will connect passengers from the terminals to regional metro-rail systems, allowing road warriors and vacationers to ditch their cars.

"There is a consensus building that this is a desirable piece of overall strategy to deal with ground transportation challenges," says Matthew Coogan, director of New England Transportation Institute who has written extensively about the subject.

Direct rail connections to Seattle-Tacoma and Dallas Love Field are expected to open later this year. Other large airports with an approved rail project that will be completed in the next few years: Salt Lake City, Phoenix Sky Harbor, Miami, Dallas/Fort Worth and Oakland.

...

[Hannibal Lecter]

Direct rail connections to Seattle-Tacoma and Dallas Love Field are expected to open later this year.Well, we see how credible this reporter is....

[NThomas]

Well, we see how credible this reporter is....
What line is opening this year that goes to Love Field? The Yellow Brick Road?

[dfwcre8tive]

Irving officials wary of DART's new Orange Line plan
12:00 AM CDT on Sunday, May 31, 2009
By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News
bformby@dallasnews.com
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-orangeline_31met.ART0.Central.Edition1.50d058d.htm l

DART officials' latest plans for the Orange Line leave intact a much-lauded direct connection from Irving's planned Belt Line station to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.

But the plans also pave the way for a looped track that would eventually connect the Orange Line to the Cotton Belt Rail Line just north of the airport.

"To us, this seems like a way to deliver the service to the terminals, which is what Irving's interested in, and not preclude a connection from the Orange Line" to the Cotton Belt, Dallas Area Rapid Transit spokesman Morgan Lyons said.

Still, Irving officials aren't celebrating the proposal that comes on the heels of weeks of tension between Irving and the transit authority over DART's last-minute look at the Orange Line's alignment.

Irving City Council member Rick Stopfer said a $1 billion DART budgeting shortfall in 2007 and recent talk of last-minute changes to the line make him wary.

"I don't have confidence, based on everything we've been jumping through these past four months, that this is really where we're at," he said.

But some Irving leaders said a cursory glance at DART's latest idea for the line is a sign that things are moving in a positive direction.


'Reasonable solution'

"I think it's a reasonable solution, but the Irving leadership needs time to properly vet it," said Chris Wallace, president and CEO of the Greater Irving-Las Colinas Chamber of Commerce.

Lyons said the connector will not affect the funding or timetable for the rest of the Orange Line. Once everything is operational, Lyons said, every third Orange Line train will run along the connector. The other two-thirds of trains will bypass the connector and run the initial Orange Line route.

The DART board must decide by next month how to align the third and final leg of Irving's Orange Line to get service running by December 2013, as promised. Lyons said the most recent plan is what DART staffers will recommend to the board.

Because there's no current funding secured for the Cotton Belt, it's up in the air when that line would start seeing passengers. DART also is $120 million to $190 million short for the $350 million to $400 million needed for the last leg of Irving's Orange Line. Lyons said funding needed for the Orange Line-Cotton Belt connecter will be rolled into the overall Cotton Belt project.

The Cotton Belt is expected to run across Tarrant, Dallas and Collin counties. It also will intersect rail lines that run north and south from Dallas County to Collin and Denton counties. An Orange Line connection to the Cotton Belt would further tie Irving's line and the airport into that planned North Texas rail network.

"This connects people in a number of significant ways," Lyons said.

Irving officials said they have not been selfishly ignoring what's good for the region. But, they said, some of DART's possible changes could have threatened billions of dollars' worth of development in what has historically been one of the agency's largest and most loyal member cities.

...

[JCL]

I think that's fair... since the cotton belt isn't secure - go ahead to a/b as planned then reserve the right to revisit it in the future...

I just hope it doesn't go to the bottom of the list of priorities and they get to it in 2050.

I'm also starting to think the southern alignment would be best if they eventually want to connect to the cotton belt... that way they wouldn't have to worry about this every 3rd train problem... it would be a straight route with the cotton belt being the terminus and a/b the next stop.

[NThomas]

Irving officials wary of DART's new Orange Line plan
12:00 AM CDT on Sunday, May 31, 2009
By BRANDON FORMBY / The Dallas Morning News
bformby@dallasnews.com
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/localnews/stories/DN-orangeline_31met.ART0.Central.Edition1.50d058d.htm l

DART officials' latest plans for the Orange Line leave intact a much-lauded direct connection from Irving's planned Belt Line station to Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport.

But the plans also pave the way for a looped track that would eventually connect the Orange Line to the Cotton Belt Rail Line just north of the airport.

"To us, this seems like a way to deliver the service to the terminals, which is what Irving's interested in, and not preclude a connection from the Orange Line" to the Cotton Belt, Dallas Area Rapid Transit spokesman Morgan Lyons said.

Still, Irving officials aren't celebrating the proposal that comes on the heels of weeks of tension between Irving and the transit authority over DART's last-minute look at the Orange Line's alignment.

Irving City Council member Rick Stopfer said a $1 billion DART budgeting shortfall in 2007 and recent talk of last-minute changes to the line make him wary.

"I don't have confidence, based on everything we've been jumping through these past four months, that this is really where we're at," he said.

But some Irving leaders said a cursory glance at DART's latest idea for the line is a sign that things are moving in a positive direction.


'Reasonable solution'

"I think it's a reasonable solution, but the Irving leadership needs time to properly vet it," said Chris Wallace, president and CEO of the Greater Irving-Las Colinas Chamber of Commerce.

Lyons said the connector will not affect the funding or timetable for the rest of the Orange Line. Once everything is operational, Lyons said, every third Orange Line train will run along the connector. The other two-thirds of trains will bypass the connector and run the initial Orange Line route.

The DART board must decide by next month how to align the third and final leg of Irving's Orange Line to get service running by December 2013, as promised. Lyons said the most recent plan is what DART staffers will recommend to the board.

Because there's no current funding secured for the Cotton Belt, it's up in the air when that line would start seeing passengers. DART also is $120 million to $190 million short for the $350 million to $400 million needed for the last leg of Irving's Orange Line. Lyons said funding needed for the Orange Line-Cotton Belt connecter will be rolled into the overall Cotton Belt project.

The Cotton Belt is expected to run across Tarrant, Dallas and Collin counties. It also will intersect rail lines that run north and south from Dallas County to Collin and Denton counties. An Orange Line connection to the Cotton Belt would further tie Irving's line and the airport into that planned North Texas rail network.

"This connects people in a number of significant ways," Lyons said.

Irving officials said they have not been selfishly ignoring what's good for the region. But, they said, some of DART's possible changes could have threatened billions of dollars' worth of development in what has historically been one of the agency's largest and most loyal member cities.

...
I'm not understanding this "every 3rd train" business. So 1/3 will stop at the northern hub while the other 2 just bypass it? Your talking about off peak times at 30 min, so just getting to the station will be an 1 &1/2 intervels plus waiting on the SW2NE line and the DART Cotton belt line...

I don't get why this makes sense...

[NThomas]

...I'm also starting to think the southern alignment would be best if they eventually want to connect to the cotton belt... that way they wouldn't have to worry about this every 3rd train problem... it would be a straight route with the cotton belt being the terminus and a/b the next stop.
Exactly! This gives Cotton Belt riders (both the DART line and the SW2NE line) the option to transfer from the northern "hub" to DFW Airport, it allows riders from Dallas & Irving straight to DFW Airport while bypassing the terminus, and uses less dense land south of the runways while still preserving areas along SH-114 for development.

[Random Traffic Guy]

Just came over the transom:

http://www.dart.org/meetings/publicmeetingsrss.asp?ID=382

DART Public Meeting to Present Orange Line Options Into DFW Airport
A special Public Meeting has been scheduled to receive comments on alternative alignments being considered to extend light rail transit (LRT) into DFW Airport from the Orange Line. Various options being considered will be presented at this meeting, and public input will be considered in the decision making process.

The meeting will be held:

Wednesday, June 17, 2009
6:30 p.m.
DART Board Room
1401 Pacific Avenue
Dallas, Texas 75202
MAPSCO 45-K (at Akard Station)

For more information, contact DART Community Affairs at 214-749-2543.